Pokémon Greninja

[StairFall]

because it's frail as fuck anyway

That logic works both ways, if you're going to die in 1 hit missing costs you an entire pokemon.

I'd like to discuss spikes greninja more really. I've found it's underwhelming, mostly because Greninja's only real opportunity to set them up is when it forces something like a physical wall out. Unlike a bulky setter like Skarmory or Ferrothorn you can only set them up 1 at a time, and most of the time you could have simply used an attack to annihilate what's switching in instead. It's largest benefit is its ability to outspeed and defeat almost all defoggers and excadrill/the rare starmie while also drawing them in.

Something like
Greninja@lifeorb
252spatk/252spe/4spdef timid
-hydro pump/surf
-ice beam
-hidden power [grass]
-spikes

It 2hko's all significant defoggers in the tier, as well as excadrill, starmie and the almost never seen forretress. The only problem is you lose out on beating M-venusaur.

 

[Prinz]

Ya Spikes Greninja is cool, mostly because it beats the most common defoggers like Mandibuzz, Skarmory and the Lati Twins, in addition HO teams really like to have Spikes support in their support.

Returning on the topic of which move is better on Greninja, I think that Surf has really low base power respect Hydro Pump, and you usually want to hit as hard as possible with an offensive mon. Also everyone uses Hydro Pump on Greninja for a reason.

Also some calcs:

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 208-246 (86.3 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 172-203 (71.3 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 227-269 (76.4 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 187-220 (62.9 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 229-273 (67.1 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 187-221 (54.8 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Medicham: 227-269 (86.9 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Medicham: 187-220 (71.6 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As you can see from these calcs, Hydro Pump is much stronger than Surf and for an offensive mon like Greninja I think that the most important thing is to hit as hard as it can its switch ins.

 

[YO FACE!!!!!!]

Ya Spikes Greninja is cool, mostly because it beats the most common defoggers like Mandibuzz, Skarmory and the Lati Twins, in addition HO teams really like to have Spikes support in their support
Returning on the topic of which move is better on Greninja, I think that Surf has really low base power respect Hydro Pump, and you usually want to hit as hard as possible with an offensive mon. Also everyone uses Hydro Pump on Greninja for a reason.

Also some calcs:

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 208-246 (86.3 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 172-203 (71.3 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 227-269 (76.4 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 187-220 (62.9 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 229-273 (67.1 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 187-221 (54.8 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Medicham: 227-269 (86.9 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Medicham: 187-220 (71.6 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As you can see from these calcs, Hydro Pump is much stronger than Surf and for an offensive mon like Greninja I think that the most important thing is to hit as hard as it can its switch ins.

Hydro Pump is more powerful, that's a fact. However, the middle two examples you gave are both guaranteed 2hkoes, making no difference whatsoever. Also, 12.5-19% is not a chance I want to lean on when dealing with the 2 MMs. Mega Mawile OHKOes with Neutral Sucker Punch(If greninja has used a move other than dark pulse.) With Mega Medicham, I think it's better to just switch out on both threats into something like Heatran/Aegislash/Talonflame.

 

[Prinz]

Yup they are both guaranteed 2HKOes, but it doesn't really mean anything since the purpose of Greninja is to hit as hard as possible and thats why Hydro Pump is a superior choice and almost everyone runs that for a reason.

Also both Heatran and Talonflame can't really switch in on Medicham:

252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 542-638 (140.7 - 165.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 231-273 (77.7 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[NotSoClutch]

Let me end this moronic conversation once and for all. Hydro pump is completely unreliable and water moves are used for coverage on greninja not as the main power move. If you use u-turn over a fourth coverage move however, hydro pump becomes incredibly useful although not at all necessary. Scald is useful because a timely burn on a special wall can really change the momentum of a game, but as a glass canon, it is more of a niche option.

Basically, if you want u-turn, hydro pump is a solid option, but many upper level players still rely on surf because 20% miss chances suck. If you dont run u-turn or I guess spikes, there is almost no reason to run hydro pump.

 

[YO FACE!!!!!!]

Yup they are both guaranteed 2HKOes, but it doesn't really mean anything since the purpose of Greninja is to hit as hard as possible and thats why Hydro Pump is a superior choice and almost everyone runs that for a reason.

Also both Heatran and Talonflame can't really switch in on Medicham:

252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 542-638 (140.7 - 165.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 231-273 (77.7 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sorry meant heatran switches into mawile. How much does Talonflame's CB BB do to 252atk 252 speed 4 hp Medicham?

 

[Prinz]

Well Scald is just useful if you get a burn on Azumarill (what special walls do you want to burn? Chansey / Blissey are going to switch on you but they have Natural Cure to cure status) but if you want to hit Azumarill, as I already said, then you should use HP Grass that hits Rotom-W too.

YO FACE!!!!!!

It always OHKOs but that doesn't mean that Talon can switch on Medicham either.

 

[StairFall]

Is there any pokemon grass knot hits significantly harder than hp grass? All I can think of is M-Gyarados. And I guess Ttar if you're running surf or don't want hydro pump to miss.

 

[Scubasage]

Is there any pokemon grass knot hits significantly harder than hp grass? All I can think of is M-Gyarados. And I guess Ttar if you're running surf or don't want hydro pump to miss.

Keldeo, Azumarill, Rotom-Wash, Greninja, Gyarados, Slowbro and Quagsire are the water types in the top 50 according to last month's 1825 stats. Slowbro, Mega Gyarados and Quagsire are hit harder by Grass Knot (80, 120, and 80 BP) everything else is hit harder or equally by HP Grass.

Rock and Ground types are taken care of by Water (or in the case of Garchomp, Ice), so they shouldn't factor into your choice for grass move.

Grass Knot does guarantee a 2HKO on any Tyranitar that isn't Assault Vest, though.

 

[StairFall]

Keldeo, Azumarill, Rotom-Wash, Greninja, Gyarados, Slowbro and Quagsire are the water types in the top 50 according to last month's 1825 stats. Slowbro, Mega Gyarados and Quagsire are hit harder by Grass Knot (80, 120, and 80 BP) everything else is hit harder or equally by HP Grass.

Rock and Ground types are taken care of by Water (or in the case of Garchomp, Ice), so they shouldn't factor into your choice for grass move.

Grass Knot does guarantee a 2HKO on any Tyranitar that isn't Assault Vest, though.

Alright, so I ran the calcs and checked the weights, Rotom-Wash is the only water type which is hit harder by HP grass. Every other water type is hit either equally hard or even harder by grass knot. However Wash is hit for absolutely pitiful damage by grass knot, and he's one of the things you want to beat. Quagsire is OHKO'd by either, GK only guarantees the OHKO on M-gyara (who you may not be able to revenge kill if he's gotten a DD in) and has a chance of OHKOing Slowbro while hp grass doesn't.

However, Extrasensory has an 85.5% chance to 2HKO Rotom-W with rocks up, and hp grass doesn't OHKO anyway, also a 2HKO. So if you're running extrasensory and are able to keep rocks up GK is fine to run, if you're running spikes you want hydro/ice/hpgrass.

Also, why the hell does a washing machine weigh less than a frog?

 

[Scubasage]

How does Rotom-W take a Hydro Pump + Extrasensory vs Hydro Pump + HP Grass?

Also, it's cause Rotom-W used to be a ghost washing machine so :P

 

[StairFall]

How does Rotom-W take a Hydro Pump + Extrasensory vs Hydro Pump + HP Grass?

Also, it's cause Rotom-W used to be a ghost washing machine so :P

Yeah, never mind, Hydro+extra is way worse than hydro+hp, the former doesn't get the KO.

So hp grass is usually better than grass knot, I guess just use the latter if you want some insurance against M-gyarados.

 

[Jaroda]

While you may have Hydro Pump for Ground and Rock types anyway, Grass Knot still receives STAB and is a more accurate version of Hydro Pump against Hippowdon and Tyranitar, and you get the benefit of also resisting Ground/Rock moves, so it's actually a smart choice these days. One could make an argument for a set with Scald/Ice Beam/Extrasensory/Grass Knot

 

[StairFall]

Grass doesn't resist rock, and running scald is silly since there's nothing worth buring you wouldn't want to simply KO. LO rrcoil is often enough to render you killable by evrn powerful burned sweepers like Gyarados.

 

[Scubasage]

While you may have Hydro Pump for Ground and Rock types anyway, Grass Knot still receives STAB and is a more accurate version of Hydro Pump against Hippowdon and Tyranitar, and you get the benefit of also resisting Ground/Rock moves, so it's actually a smart choice these days. One could make an argument for a set with Scald/Ice Beam/Extrasensory/Grass Knot

At that point, it's almost better to just use Hidden Power Grass over Grass Knot. The more common of the top 50 water types are damaged equally, except for Rotom-Wash, who takes way more from HP Grass. I understand not wanting to use HP Grass because of wanting to use HP Fire, but if you're not running it, I think HP Grass is the better choice than Grass Knot.

 

[Jaroda]

At that point, it's almost better to just use Hidden Power Grass over Grass Knot. The more common of the top 50 water types are damaged equally, except for Rotom-Wash, who takes way more from HP Grass. I understand not wanting to use HP Grass because of wanting to use HP Fire, but if you're not running it, I think HP Grass is the better choice than Grass Knot.

That was my point. If they are going to be damaged equally, Grass Knot is handy in dealing with heavier Ground and Rock types with better accuracy than Hydro Pump.

And my bad regarding Grass resisting Rock, but if you were going to run Scald I would consider not running Life Orb actually. If you don't want him to be a powerful cleaner, an item like Leftovers actually wouldn't be horrible if you abuse Scald/U-Turn. This often allows you to burn switch ins and U-Turn out quickly before getting touched, and Leftovers heals passive damage from Sand or Rocks, giving Greninja longer legs to stand on. But again, only if you intend to use both Scald and U-Turn. Life Orb does not go well with U-Turn, as the damage increase to a weak U-Turn is not worth the recoil.

 

[Sandoori]

Not sure if anyone's made something like this already, but since it's the current hot topic I got bored and decided to go down the viability rankings comparing Grass Knot to HP Grass.

stuff

Azumarill =
Keldeo =
Greninja =
(M-)Gyarados +60
Terrakion +60
(M-)Tyranitar +60
Hippowdon +60
Mamoswine +60
Rotom-W -40
Diggersby -20
Manaphy -40
Slowbro +20
Alomomola =
Kabutops =
Politoed =
Quagsire +20
Suicune +40
***Kingdra +40 (1x, but still Greninja's strongest option)
***Raikou +40 (Can survive anything from Raikou as grass type, even potentially Specs HP Ice after LO recoil)
Rhyperior +60
Blastoise +20
M-Blastoise +40
Omastar =
Diancie -40
Krookodile +20
Seismitoad +20
Dugtrio =
Gastrodon =
Gorebyss -20
Slowking +20
Empoleon +20
Mantine +60
Sharpedo +20

Shortly put, HP Grass is only really better for dealing with Manaphy and Rotom-W (though, admittedly, those are threats you want handled). Grass Knot is either equal or stronger against everything else relevant, and even gives an interesting option against some odd pokes it hits neutrally like Raikou due to the combination of high BP (2HKOs specs Raikou) and grass' resists (easily survives resisted Thunderbolt, but none of Raikou's options are a guaranted OHKO even after one turn of LO recoil).

And, of course, Grass Knot lets you run HP Fire as well if you wanted to.

 

[dadoux]

Your list is not really useful with Diggersby for example, you can straight up hpump / ice beam it. The only notable mons are the one who does resist hpump / ice beam, like azumarill or rotom-w.

 

[Karxrida]

Your list is not really useful with Diggersby for example, you can straight up hpump / laser beam it. The only notable mons are the one who does resist hpump / ice beam, like azumarill or rotom-w.

Sometimes you want an answer to things like Tyranitar without having to deal with 80% accuracy. Rotom-W is literally the only thing of note that HP Grass hits harder (when was the last time you saw a Manaphy?) and is 2HKO'd by Extrasensory anyway.

 

[dadoux]

No, you can't kill ttar without Hpump whatsoever, you can't gk/hp grass it. the volt switch +Hpump resistance is actually great because you can do a lot of damage to rotom-w without risking anything in return.

 

[Tressed]

No, you can't kill ttar without Hpump whatsoever, you can't gk/hp grass it.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 289-343 (71.7 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 148-174 (36.7 - 43.1%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 265-312 (65.7 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

How are you doing your calcs?

 

[dadoux]

I don't use grass knot on greninja, if i use a grass move i need to hit azumarill and rotom-w, or i'll use hp fire for ferrothorn.

Btw it's not like Ttar was gonna switch on greninja.

 

[Jaroda]

I don't use grass knot on greninja, if i use a grass move i need to hit azumarill and rotom-w, or i'll use hp fire for ferrothorn.

Btw it's not like Ttar was gonna switch on greninja.

As was shown, Grass Knot hits Azumarill for equal damage as HP Grass. You're only missing out on Rotom-W and to a lesser extent Manaphy.

And it keeps slipping my mind but Grass Knot actually beats Hydro Pump in accuracy and power since Hydro Pump is now 110 BP. As was shown, Grass Knot is always the better option in that instance.

So, what constitutes the best coverage now?

Greninja@Life Orb
Protean
Timid 252 SpA / 252 Spd
- Hydro Pump/Surf
- Grass Knot
- Ice Beam
- HP Fire/Extrasensory

The fact is looking at the threat list Grass Knot appears to pull its weight against far more threats in conjunction with Hydro Pump and Ice Beam and offers better reliability against many foes, where you simply can't afford to miss with Hydro Pump. I think the real question is do you need HP Fire to lure and take out Steel types, or do you need Extrasensory for Mega Venusaur and perhaps Conkeldurr. Grass Knot is stronger and more accurate against Tyranitar, Hippowdon, Terrakion, Mamoswine and Rhyperior and is a great move for Mega Gyarados. It really comes down to the rest of your team or what you need eliminated, but Grass Knot seems an invaluable tool for several huge threats that you simply can't afford to miss. If you have access to good Flying and Psychic moves elsewhere I'd argue HP Fire would be an amazing last choice together with the other moves.

 

[Vaporeon Isn't Bad]

Greninja has an absolutely AMAZING movepool, has stab on every move for mind games, is one of the fastest mons, but it does have a few problems keeping it from S rank. Those being priority, prankster paralyze, and scarfers, and basically everything that outspeeds it. I personally only think 1 item is viable, that being life orb. specs kinda makes the whole protean mind game thing useless. And about the physical set... It doesnt really work imo, movepool isnt good enough and lacking in strenght as well.

 

[StairFall]

As was shown, Grass Knot hits Azumarill for equal damage as HP Grass. You're only missing out on Rotom-W and to a lesser extent Manaphy.

And it keeps slipping my mind but Grass Knot actually beats Hydro Pump in accuracy and power since Hydro Pump is now 110 BP. As was shown, Grass Knot is always the better option in that instance.

So, what constitutes the best coverage now?

Greninja@Life Orb
Protean
Timid 252 SpA / 252 Spd
- Hydro Pump/Surf
- Grass Knot
- Ice Beam
- HP Fire/Extrasensory

The fact is looking at the threat list Grass Knot appears to pull its weight against far more threats in conjunction with Hydro Pump and Ice Beam and offers better reliability against many foes, where you simply can't afford to miss with Hydro Pump. I think the real question is do you need HP Fire to lure and take out Steel types, or do you need Extrasensory for Mega Venusaur and perhaps Conkeldurr. Grass Knot is stronger and more accurate against Tyranitar, Hippowdon, Terrakion, Mamoswine and Rhyperior and is a great move for Mega Gyarados. It really comes down to the rest of your team or what you need eliminated, but Grass Knot seems an invaluable tool for several huge threats that you simply can't afford to miss. If you have access to good Flying and Psychic moves elsewhere I'd argue HP Fire would be an amazing last choice together with the other moves.

Small addition that's already been said, but extrasensory 2HKO's Rotom-W after rocks, the only water type who's hit for less by grass knot than hp grass.