Metagame NP: RU Stage 4: Do My Thang (READ POST #2)

[Molk]

Alright, so now that Yanmega and Zoroark have been officially banned (if they aren't yet then they will be during the next server restart. It's time to start a new np: thread. Unlike the past few rounds, we're going to be doing things a little differently and we're going to be starting with No Suspects. Instead this thread will be serving a new purpose as a General Metagame Discussion. Sharing your knowledge of the (NEW) Metagame is a great way to get involved and help out the community, and this new thread is just the place to do that. Some things that could be discussed in this thread include:

• New Stage - If there are tier shifts, make some predictions on what the metagame will be like or comment on the changes
• Suspect Testing - If you believe that anything is worthy of a suspect test, post about it and why you think it deserves a suspect test. (nothing will be chosen as a suspect until at least two weeks in though, if even that)
• Metagame trends - What are the most common or effective strategies? Are there any Pokemon that you think will rise in usage?
• Top threats - What should the main priorities be when considering a team for RU?
• Playstyles - Which are most effective? Are there any that cannot succeed?
• Cores - What are some popular or solid cores? Why do they work so well, and what can be used to beat them?
• Underrated Pokemon - Just because a Pokemon isn't used much doesn't mean its bad! There are plenty of hidden gems scattered throughout low RU, NU, PU, and possibly even Little Cup!
• New sets - If you have a unique set that you've had success with recently, share it!

Be sure to keep this discussion as civil as possible, as always.

And remember to enjoy this awesome tier and only think about current suspects if the meta turns out to really suck.

Might add a song later but honestly who even pays attention to them, i'm serious.

The NP song is Do My Thang, because right now all of the clearly stupid shit has been banned and I think it is time for me to "Do My Thang" and enjoy the RU Metagame. If you have a problem with the choice of song well me and Miley have two letters for you, one of them is F, and the other one is U.

-llamas B)

 

[Molk]

By the way, there are some new threads that will prolly be up in the next few days =)

EDIT: I know i mentioned suspect testing in the OP as something to talk about, but can we at least wait a bit before hopping on the bandwagon? It's only been a single day, if even that since the Yanmega and Zoroark bans have become official (the ladder hasn't even been reset yet for god's sake). As Spirit mentioned below, can we please actually get some experience in the new metagame w/o yan or zoro before calling something extremely broken?

 

[Talpr0ne]

Might add a song later but honestly who even pays attention to them, i'm serious.

I lol'ed because it's true.

I'm planning on trying out Sticky Web again, as since the departure of Shuckle nobody is actually prepared against them anymore and the tier is still full of cool wallbreakers such as Clawitzer and Exploud, despite the leaving of Yanmega and Zoroark. Who do you think the best sticky webber is right now? Masquerain, Kricketune or Leavanny? I think it is Kricketune because it has access to Taunt and Endeavor to softening walls, but I'd like to hear everyone's opinion.

 

[Ares]

New Thread HYPE!

Might add a song later but honestly who even pays attention to them, i'm serious.

I listen to the songs at least once ;_;

 

[atomicllamas]

I'm gonna add a song and you can't stop me B)

 

[Skankovich]

I reccomend more Kreayshawn tbh

 

[HypnoEmpire]

I listen to the songs, Molk ;-;

Alright, so just going to put this out there but Meloetta and Hitmonlee are so deadly, more so Meloetta. Meloetta was already amazing in the tier, but after Yanmega and Zoroark bans, it just got better. The same applies to every other Psychic-type. Okay, so here's what I predict: because Psychic-types will, in theory, be more prominent and threatening than before, I can see Escavalier and Drapion rising in usage.

Alright, so I posted about this in the viability rankings already, but I tried out a Hitmonlee set recently with the intention of a pure wallbreaker. It has High Jump Kick, Knock Off, Double-Edge, and Mach Punch with the standard LO Adamant set and it can completely decimate walls. Amoonguss and Aromatisse are 2HKOd by Double-Edge and after Golbat's / Gligar's Eviolite is Knocked Off, it can't switch back into Hitmonlee because Double-Edge can then 2HKO them. This thing is seriously overpowered. Next suspect test?

Talpr0ne Kricketune and Leavanny are the best Sticky Web users imo. They both have things to differentiate themselves: Leavanny has more offensive presence, is faster, and has Magic Coat while Kricketune has Endeavor, Knock Off, and Taunt. I think it all goes down to preference, but I prefer Leavanny.

 

[dajachiz]

I've found that Meloetta completely wrecks in this metagame. Hyper Voice+ Psychic dents so much stuff it's not even funny. Few things can claim to stand up to 128 Sp. Atk especially at +1 from Specs. Combine that with insane bulk, 100/77/128 to be exact, and you have one of the best Pokemon in the tier. But that isn't even the end of it. A flexible movepool, giving options like U-turn and Thunderbolt. Also the threat of relic song, turning it into a physical beast, is enough to make Pokemon like Registeel, and Slowking think twice before switching in. Give this thing hazard and Dugtrio support, and you are golden.

 

[x MAD AXES x]

I can see cresselia getting suspected in the near future.

 

[phantom]

As far as I'm aware, the ladder hasn't even updated with Zoroark's and Yanmega's ban. So guys, I know you're all eager about this new meta and there's a lot of ideas generating around, but can we avoid talking about our "experiences" about the new meta or any potential suspects until we actually play it? Thanks.

 

[rob.]

Hide

Delphox @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Grass Knot
- Psychic
- Calm Mind

Meloetta @ Choice Specs
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Psychic
- U-turn
- Shadow Ball

I'm here to drop a jewel. I'm currently building a team around these two monsters; I assume there will be a huge increase of the usage of Meloetta and Delphox now that two of their biggest and best checks are gone (well Psychic-types in general received a huge boost in viability after the bans). But anyway these two function very well together thanks to their auspicious synergy. The strategy is very simple. Meloetta has a hard time dealing with bulky Steel-types who can switch in on all of its moves, subsequently forcing it out. Steel-types don't like fire so here is where the magician comes in. Meloetta can use U-turn to safely bring in Delphox on predicted Steel-type switch-ins. Delphox beats every Steel-type in the tier 1 vs 1 (it takes a shitton from Doublade's Shadow Sneak though). Then watch the tears of your opponent roll as Meloetta decimates their team after their counter is eliminated. It's not just limited to eliminating Steel-types either, Delphox can threaten most of the Pokemon in the tier with its great Speed and power. Calm Mind just makes it deadlier. And if you've managed to compile a great team that applies a ton of offensive pressure then the rest of the game should be e-z. Beware ... the reign of the Psychic-types is upon us.

EDIT: Some AV mons could give this core trouble but that's why you have 4 more slots :) (use sharpedo). I also posted this in the cores section but it deserves to be here as well.

 

[Ununhexium]

I don't really know if Cresselia is too strong, but it might be deserving of a suspect. It has incredible bulk and my favorite Pokemon to use against it was Yanmega. I guess Doublade still wrecks it but it is still annoying.

 

[Ares]

I don't really know if Cresselia is too strong, but it might be deserving of a suspect. It has incredible bulk and my favorite Pokemon to use against it was Yanmega. I guess Doublade still wrecks it but it is still annoying.

And Escavalier, which was quite common as a counter to Cress way back when.

 

[Lemonade]

I like the sound of that Lee set. After using it as a spinner most of last stage I never ever enjoyed the Doublade matchup. That thing has a 90 chance of winning if it switches into Knock Off wtf. You could just switch Lee out but sometimes you really want that Spin. Instead, Sandslash. After trying out Sandslash I'm fully on the bandwagon. I think offense is definitely the better set because it's threatening and still takes hits well. It's like, Lee's decent SDef is kind of pointless because you aren't ever going to switch into a Scald, neutral Hidden Powers are weak anyway, and with no investment Lee can't really take stronger special attacks anyway. But because it has such low Defense, it just doesn't have a good time to get in and Spin. Sandslash on the other hand can easily switch into physical moves, and it would never switch into Special moves anyway.

Also one thing about Aromatisse, it should go max Defense now imo, so you would need Rocks to 2HKO with Double Edge Lee, but all the more reason to run non Spin Lee because HJK doesn't come close to 2hkoing anymore and with Double Edge you don't have to worry about Protect.

 

[Explorer]

When observing the changes in a metagame because of suspects being banned, there are always two instances where I see a Pokemon's usage increasing:

A) A Pokemon that was outclassed by the now-banned Pokemon
B) A Pokemon that struggled with the suspect as it ran riot around the tier

For right now I am going to focus on discussing part (A).

Yanmega had two main sets, and so there are two main "molds" of Pokemon that can come in to replace it.

I. Pokemon that nuke opponents with strong special attacks

Specs Exploud wasn't used as much as Yanmega because its special attack stat is much lower and it more desperately needs speed control support (usually Sticky Web) to function.

Specs Delphox is often eschewed in favor of the Scarf, but obviously Delphox is a better wall breaker with Specs. With Zoroark outspeeding it by 2 points and the power output failing to match Yanmega's, I didn't see too many of these, but the Fire Blast/Grass Knot/Psyshock/Trick set can still be very effective, especially with the strongest user of Sucker Punch in the tier gone (and Delphox also resists Mach Punch and Ice Shard, a welcome bonus for a faster wall breaker).

I anticipate people will start turning to Tinted Lens Sigilyph sets just to have that same "Tinted Lens oomph" as Yanmega did, but in all honesty, it's not as effective as SpecsMega at wall breaking. I'd rather use it as a lure or for the really annoying CP set.

II. Fast cleaners that can destroy a weakened team with coverage, power, and most of all speed.

Sharpedo comes to mind as the cleaner Yanmega sets also ran Speed Boost. Sharpedo also has better mixed attacking stats than Yanmega, a neutrality to Stealth Rock, and excellent coverage in its STABs alone. It can also use a slot for Earthquake, Ice Beam, or on occasion a Hidden Power (usually Fire) or Destiny Bond. I think this is a threat to look out for, as many people will want to fill the void of a Speed Boost cleaner.

Omastar comes to mind as another option for a cleaner as its power output bypasses LO Mega's after a SS boost, and the number of Pokemon that can manhandle its set after a boost are few and far between. Gastrodon is the most obvious choice, followed by Slowking, to handle this thing. There's also Barbacle, but people will more likely go to Omastar to fill the void as Yanmega and Omastar are both predominantly special attackers. Not saying Barbacle isn't viable, but it's not the best replacement for Yanmega.

Furthermore, with everybody no longer trying to hit a high benchmark by spamming the broken Pokemon, some underrated play styles, especially rain, may come back to the light. We'll see how it goes, but let's hope for a more fun and less monotone metagame now!

 

[Davon]

I don't think cresselia will be suspect worthy because you still have Durant, Doublade, and Escavalier for bulky/hyper offense teams. For stall teams you still have Drapion. Who knows though, maybe magneton + cresselia core will be a thing leaving Durant and escavalier as unreliable checks. Cresselia is very good but not unstoppable in my opinion, and most play styles can deal with it, except for maybe rain.

 

[Explorer]

I sometimes slap Toxic on random offensive Pokemon for that very reason. Something that Cresselia would want to switch into, such as Hariyama.

 

[~BLOOM~]

I think that a previously mentioned core in the RU Teambuilding Session Thread might become a new fearsome threat in a Yanmega/Zoroark-free metagame. (I don't remember who posted it, I believe New Breed did. If it's not New Breed and it is someone else, forgive me.)

Meoletta+Dugtrio (Specs Meoletta with U-turn over Focus Blast or Shadow Ball, and Standard Trapper Dugtrio to be exact) is a powerhouse. Meoletta got even better anyway with two of it's main checks/revenge killers getting banned, so it alone is a force to be reckoned with. However, with U-turn over a common coverage move, Focus Blast or Shadow Ball, Meoletta can effectively scout a switch to Registeel or Slowking (Or even Escavalier), U-turn out to Dugtrio, take the wall out, and continue to break the team from there. If the opponent tries to stay in on a U-turn, you could play some smart mindgames and punish them with Hyper Voice/Psychic, which might win you the game (or for low ladder, make em' forfeit).

 

[EonX]

A lot of people have been covering the obvious things that will likely see a boost in usage, but I'm going to delve down a little further:

Explorer already touched on Sigilyph, but it becomes quite the intriguing Psychic-type now. It loves not having Zoroark around to Sucker Punch / Knock Off its face (eye?) off and Yanmega generally outclassed it as a specially based Flying-type. While Meloetta will likely nuke shit with Specs-boosted attacks and Reuniclus will likely be breaking stall in half, Sigilyph is the only relevant Psychic-type (bar Xatu) to get Fire-type coverage. This is key since shit like Escavalier and Registeel will likely rise up to try and take hits from these Psychic-types. The difference between Sigilyph and Xatu is Magic Guard. This lets Sigilyph poop on Stall more easily than Xatu while still faring decently well against offense, unlike Reuniclus (outside of TR of course) It can run a 4 Attacks set (Psyshock, Air Slash, Heat Wave, Energy Ball) Roost + 3 Attacks, CM + Flame Orb, and CM + Roost quite effectively. It might have been NU to start XY, but I can see it becoming pretty viable with Zoroark and Yanmega gone.

I already touched on it with the Sigilyph tidbit, but Reuniclus poops on Stall like no other with its CM set, which just got a fuckton better now that Zoroark and Yanmega aren't around to smack it into next week with their STAB moves. Reuniclus has great overall bulk, Magic Guard to get around status, and high Special Attack that allows it to easily invest in HP and Defense to tank hits better. And if you need something to shut down HO, OTR Reuniclus is amazing for that. It will have issues with Escavalier and Drapion, but there's no denying that Reuniclus will be benefiting from the bans of Zoroark and Yanmega to some extent.

To combat Psychic-types with balance or stall teams, you need bulky Dark- and Steel-type Pokemon. Spiritomb, Escavalier, and Drapion fill this role quite well. Spiritomb is most notable as it doesn't give two fucks for Meloetta's STAB moves or common coverage options while it also isn't smashed by Sigilyph's coverage options. It does struggle a bit with Reuniclus and Cresselia though, and that's where the other two come into play. Escavalier walks all over Cresselia and Reuniclus while also handling Meloetta pretty well. It's toast against Delphox and won't exactly care to be taking Heat Waves from LO Sigilyph, but Escavalier is still going to see an improvement in the new meta imo. Drapion has Toxic Spikes, Knock Off, and Whirlwind. Between these three moves, it's able to make most Psychic-types cry. SubCM Meloetta is boned by TSpikes while Reuniclus and Cresselia are unable to get past Drapion without multiple boosts; which they won't be getting thanks to Whirlwind. It also has Taunt at its disposal to ruin fully defensive Cresselia as well as OTR Reuniclus if it gets fancy and tries to setup TR in Drapion's face. Like Escavalier, it's not faring overly well vs. Delphox, but it can at least take a hit from it and retaliate with Knock Off.

Another one mentioned by Explorer, but Delphox wrecks virtually every common answer to other Psychic-types thanks to its secondary Fire-typing. Between Choice Specs and LO CM sets, Delphox is able to lay waste to many Pokemon in the tier with ease. It can even use a Choice Scarf set to smack would-be revenge killers, thus possibly opening the opposing team up to something like SubCM Meloetta, Virizion, or Durant. It still has Slowking to block it at every corner, but Delphox appreciates not having to deal with a possible Sucker Punch at every corner.

This may seem like an odd choice, but this is probably your best bet to replace Zoroark. With a high base 115 Speed and underrated base 95 Attack, Sneasel can easily surprise some opponents. With access to Knock Off, Ice Shard, and Low Kick, Sneasel can cause quite a few issues for offensive teams. It also has Ice Punch and outspeeds Virizion, so you just straight up OHKO it should it try to sweep. Sneasel is incredibly frail, but with high Speed, respectable Attack, and great STAB coverage, it could be come one of the more underrated late-game cleaners now that Zoroark isn't around.

There's some more things that will likely get better, such as Durant, Shiftry, and possibly Vivillon, but I'll leave those for others to mention.

 

[x MAD AXES x]

Sharpedo is going to be a good check to meloetta, sigilyth and delphox unless using scarf and sharpedo doesnt reach +2 speed (cresselias bulks actually survives and can OHKO with moonblast), zen headbutt also lets him defeat virizion unless it hits.

Now I know sharpedo was already one of the top pokemon on the RU ladder but yanmega and Zoroark leaving both helped him and to help even more this made psychics more viable so they will be more common meaning the rise of dark pokemon with sharpedo being the dark type answer to beat psychics on HO teams (drapion too).

The only way I can see vivillion being usable is coming in late game (you have to keep rocks up) put a pokemon to sleep, quiver dance and late game clean, which the bans did help it in a way a guess with the psychics and dark types that are going to be running around, but I can see durant being the primary bug check to those two types

 

[Molk]

This may seem like an odd choice, but this is probably your best bet to replace Zoroark. With a high base 115 Speed and underrated base 95 Attack, Sneasel can easily surprise some opponents. With access to Knock Off, Ice Shard, and Low Kick, Sneasel can cause quite a few issues for offensive teams. It also has Ice Punch and outspeeds Virizion, so you just straight up OHKO it should it try to sweep. Sneasel is incredibly frail, but with high Speed, respectable Attack, and great STAB coverage, it could be come one of the more underrated late-game cleaners now that Zoroark isn't around.

There's some more things that will likely get better, such as Durant, Shiftry, and possibly Vivillon, but I'll leave those for others to mention.

Sneasel is actually something i've been interested in for a while, and the only thing that was really holding me back from testing it was that (imo) Zoroark simply overshadowed it too much as a fast, frail Dark-type, although even then it still had advantages. Now that Zoroark is gone though Sneasel has a pretty legitimate shot at being a cool option in the RU tier imo. Its Speed tier is almost unmatched (only Jolteon and Dugtrio outspeed this guy, everything else unboosted speed ties with Sneasel at best, and its important to note the latter falls to an Ice Shard anyway), and Sneasel's unique STAB combination of Dark+Ice hits a large amount of the top threats including Gligar, Virizion, Meloetta, Slowking, Druddigon, and Delphox super effectively, which gives it quite a bit of potential as an anti metagame threat and late game cleaner imo, especially with Psychic-types to target with Knock Off most likely on the rise. Of course, between Sneasel's frailty and poor defensive typing finding opportunities to switch in will be quite challenging, but once it gets in i can see it doing quite a bit of damage, especially after watching EonX play around with it a little bit. At the very least, a Dark-type that can outspeed and smack both Cobalion and Virizion with Low Kick and Ice Punch, respectively, is something worth looking at.

 

[atomicllamas]

K updated the NP with a real song #Miley

may edit this post with something that actually contributes ;o

 

[SwannaForUbers]

Great song choice, I love it. Miley is a complete mess but catchy af. May I request some Backstreet Boys for some time down the road? Anywho, I can definitely see the meta shifting a little away from HO teams. I can see stall making a good showing. Also, Sub-setup psychic pokes seem really good right now.

But aside from these, I'm not going to try and make too many predictions on the meta until it settles for a few days. Just going to enjoy the fact that Yanmega is gone.

 

[Explorer]

I decided to have some fun with Spikes Offense, using Accelgor rather than the usual Cacturne, a few wallbreakers, and two of my favorite toys from NU to use in RU: Torterra and Barbacle. Here is a recent replay that highlights both:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-155042746
I'll let you see who wins, but especially with Yanmega gone Torterra is no doubt an underrated Pokemon. I like using it over Rhyperior because most people use Rhyperior for Rocks instead letting Torterra gain the upper hand in these matchups (barring a switch into a random Megahorn/Avalanche).

 

[SwannaForUbers]

I decided to have some fun with Spikes Offense, using Accelgor rather than the usual Cacturne, a few wallbreakers, and two of my favorite toys from NU to use in RU: Torterra and Barbacle. Here is a recent replay that highlights both:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-155042746
I'll let you see who wins, but especially with Yanmega gone Torterra is no doubt an underrated Pokemon. I like using it over Rhyperior because most people use Rhyperior for Rocks instead letting Torterra gain the upper hand in these matchups (barring a switch into a random Megahorn/Avalanche).

Scarf Torterra is only Torterra IMO.