np: XY UU Stage 2 - Light Em Up

[Patrick1088]

Stef0w hawlucha steamrolls through stall and offense since he can wallbreak easily and be so fast that he cant be rk thanks to unburden. Short of having priority, sash zam or doublade/granbull, youre pretty screwed. The power herb sd sky attack set is ridiculous.

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Sky Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 267-315 (67.7 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 213-252 (61.9 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These are the sturdiest phys walls in UU atm and both are easily 2hko. As for the comment on espeed lucario...

252+ Atk Hawlucha Sky Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lucario: 264-312 (93.9 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Keep in mind no boost..

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 140-166 (46.8 - 55.5%) -- 75.8% chance to 2HKO

The only priority user that can reliably rk is fletchinder where acro is guaranteed ohko with no boost.

Tl:dr
Hawlucha can dismantle all styles with ease unless you specifically carry sash zam, doublade, fletchinder or sash cloyster...

 

[Explorer]

Hippowodon, which IMO is the #1 most reliable physical wall in UU, also does a good job of handling Hawlucha. Scarf Electrics also handle it, and Froslass can check it too.

 

[Pinkin Lark]

Hawlucha is interesting, as the real threat isn't exactly just Hawlucha, as his stats are rather middle-ground(except for speed) and his moveset is pretty shoddy. It ends up being Unburden, allowing him to pretty much outspeed every meta by using a generally ignored item/move combination. There's a few things that can soak +2 hits from him, but even then, you're probably going to have to trade at least one 'mon before you can take him down.

Considering he is another very dangerous sweeper/wallbreaker, I'm guessing he will end up sticking around the BL.

 

[Brendannn]

hawlucha hype game 2 strong

if i'm thinking this right, the only pokemon to resist hawlucha's dual stab is doublade, which nidoking can handle. of course fletchinder and slowbro can be decent counters and checks, respectively, although raikou can handle them pretty well. overall, it'll be interesting to see how the metagame works around hawlucha being a prominent threat in the UU metagame.

 

[alexwolf]

Hippowodon, which IMO is the #1 most reliable physical wall in UU, also does a good job of handling Hawlucha. Scarf Electrics also handle it, and Froslass can check it too.

Isn't Hippo 2HKOed by +2 Hawlucha while the only thing it can do back is phaze?

 

[Explorer]

I'm now convinced that Hawlucha may be broken. Even if it's not, it would be a metagame-defining force as most of the Pokemon mentioned as checks to it are fairly uncommon in UU to begin with.

 

[Stef0w]

I'm now convinced that Hawlucha may be broken. Even if it's not, it would be a metagame-defining force as most of the Pokemon mentioned as checks to it are fairly uncommon in UU to begin with.

Amph is decently common, and aero is everywhere.

this is not to mention 4mss (SD, sub, Sky Attack, acro's, hi jump kick, stone edge), or the fact that it has one time to sweep, since it loses unburden after switching.

It needs to be at +2, or it hits like a wet towel.

It's great, sure, but it most certainly has issues.

 

[Patrick1088]

Knock off reactivates unburden so dont be so quick to say that...

 

[Stef0w]

Even after the time is gone?

Tbh, my server hasnt restarted yet, so I might be wrong.

 

[Pinkin Lark]

Amph is decently common, and aero is everywhere.

this is not to mention 4mss (SD, sub, Sky Attack, acro's, hi jump kick, stone edge), or the fact that it has one time to sweep, since it loses unburden after switching.

It needs to be at +2, or it hits like a wet towel.

It's great, sure, but it most certainly has issues.

I think the problem is that, like Manaphy, it's hard to stop once it gets going. Except in this case, instead of 100 defenses with good typing, it's 118 base speed doubled after a 140 BP move. Add on the fact it resists most common Priority and taking it out with nasty losses isn't easy.

And I wouldn't call 3 offensive moves with 110/130/140 BP a wet towel. 92 Attack isn't amazing, but those BPs combined with STAB can make up for it.

Knock off reactivates unburden so dont be so quick to say that...

Pretty sure that's not how it works. It'll trigger the Unburden if it takes off the Power Herb, but it won't re-activate the ability.

 

[Calloflochie]

Ok since everyone is examining Hawlucha from the complete wrong angle I'm going to make a post. Hawlucha isn't meant to be a wall breaker, you can see from base 92 Attack that the best physical walls in the tier are going to be able to eat up a hit from it. What Hawlucha excels in is its ability to clean up late game, which when walls like hippo and aggron and whatever else have been weakened, Hawlucha can smash past them. And for the people saying Hawlucha doesn't do well vs hyper offense, how does a Pokemon with flying/fighting coverage with access to swords dance and the ability unburden not do well against hyper offense??? Come on guys, comparing apples with oranges when looking at suspects isn't the way to look at it, sure it doesn't wall break like Mega Alakazam or have insane bulk like zygarde or unstoppable coverage like Manaphy but I challenge you to find a better late game cleaner than Hawlucha(that isn't all ready banned) cause I think you'll find that there are very few.

 

[RowDog]

Just a couple of things to consider about Hawlucha is that it really needs to get a SD in order to sweep, and with its bulk, you can generally threaten it with a lot of Pokemon to prevent setup. Secondly, it only has one real chance to sweep, as after the Unburden boost is gone if it is forced out or phazed, it becomes rather easy to revenge kill.
Might use Doublade again, as it made Hawlucha extremely easy to deal with back in the era of birds.

 

[Calloflochie]

Just a couple of things to consider about Hawlucha is that it really needs to get a SD in order to sweep, and with its bulk, you can generally threaten it with a lot of Pokemon to prevent setup. Secondly, it only has one real chance to sweep, as after the Unburden boost is gone if it is forced out or phazed, it becomes rather easy to revenge kill.
Might use Doublade again, as it made Hawlucha extremely easy to deal with back in the era of birds.

Against balance and stall it can easily find opportunities to do that and against offense well; Infernape, Absol, Heracross, Haxorus, hydreigon, Mega Aero etc etc Hawlucha doesn't even need an SD to sweep HO, the only play style I really see it struggling with is bulky offense and even then it can still set up on stuff like -2 hydreigon

 

[Nysyr]

Here's the issue; because of it's ability, speed and typing he can invest in bulk and be insanely hard to revenge kill (legitimately nothing outspeeds him after unburden). His attack stat may be low, but as Talonflame has showed in OU its mostly Base Power of the moves that makes the difference. Acrobatics, HJK, and Sky Attack are all insanely powerful moves which buffer out Hawlucha's lower base attack. Being able to run a boosting nature helps a lot too.

There are literally no answers to this thing for offensive teams, and even slowbro does not take kindly to something like +2 Acro/Sky Attack.

Sub Variants with cheeky stuff like redcard can guarantee a setup situation in many cases as well, if you don't like the idea of being burned or having to 50/50 the Sky Attack on switches.

Not too related, but Fight/Flying would have been THE best defensive typing in gen 5 lol.

Think this thing can't invest in bulk?

It literally outspeeds every scarfer with 0 EVs after unburden, bar jolly Crobat (lol).

272 Speed 0 EVs Neutral nature Hawlucha x2 w unburden = 544
Timid Azelf = 361 x 1.5 = 541
Adamant Crobat = 359 x 1.5 = 538

 

[Ernesto]

Yea, -2 Hydra is a very good example of a thing it can set up on, even if they have LO Luke to back up:
-2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 28 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 196-231 (64.4 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (you get to Sitrus range)
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 28 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 140-166 (46 - 54.6%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO
that amounts to 85.4-105.5 with Sitrus taken into account (Sky Attack variants lose here).

I know this is assuming no SR, but keep in mind that's also LO Hydra, Scarf variants are even more easily set up on. That's not to mention that it basically makes Mienshao, Hera, Superpower Absol (not at +2 obviously, since Knock Off prevents you from Subbing to avoid Sucker meaning you have to attack outright or get into mindgames), etc getting a kill an immediate countersweep for those types of teams. And it's just that while you can say that there are many things on offense that can take an unboosted hit, not much takes it at +2:

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 367-433 (107.6 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 349-412 (98.8 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 315-372 (94 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

If anything, Lucha's biggest issue is that it really needs Adamant to get those kills, meaning that you can't rely on it to revenge stuff like SD Absol, NP Dog—however uncommon that might be—or NP Ape (well, you can with SR on your side, but you have to switch in four times to activate Unburden, lol). Other than that, it's simply amazing.

Also Granbull isn't a good answer, Play Rough tends to miss at the perfect times :o

 

[KM]

p.s. sub red card hawlucha hasn't worked since the beginning of the tier (it was patched), so just to clear that up

 

[DiscoDucky]

*Actual Representation of Hawlucha Unbanned*

In all seriousness, the metagame has significantly shifted since Hawlucha's ban a number of neat-o checks have arisen in this meta (pretty sure everyone's said something about it). What I've never really understood about the Hawlucha are the calcs with Swords Dance. Looking at its stats, I really never understood where it could get the set-up opportunities from (unless it's the Sub + Red Card) due to its weird typing and piss-poor bulk (78/75/63). I mean, it's typing allows it to deal with a lot of Fighting-types and Dark-types in the tier as well as act as a decent check to CB Heracross:

252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Megahorn vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 99-117 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO

But I digress.

After reading Ernie's post, I can kind of see where Hawlucha can be problematic with set-ups and whatnot. Also, UU has had a surge in priority Pokemons, including Lucario, Fletchinder, Mega-Absol, etc.

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 140-166 (46.8 - 55.5%) -- 75.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 93-109 (31.1 - 36.4%) -- 64% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 342-404 (114.3 - 135.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I mean it's not a lot and the calcs don't really prove an especially strong case for Hawlucha, but we'll just have to see how it plays out.

 

[Nysyr]

Hawlucha doesn't need to invest in speed in UU, those are the OU usage stats.

Your speed creep is:
Nothing, 272 speed outspeed all scarfers after unburden.
285, outspeed Chandy before Unburden
296, outspeed base 85 Positive nature before unburden, Modest Hyd (base 98), Jolly Scarfbat (worthless) after unburden

Personally I run the spread 152 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 96 Spe. SR number max speedcreep worth doing, bulk yada yada.

 

[Metal Sonic]

Hawlucha is back?! During the early times of XY UU, even prior to the implementation of kokoloko's reigning ban-system, Hawlucha ran rampant and was one of the first Pokemon to be deemed broken.

Unburden Acrobatics is a terrifying combination. Access to Swords Dance makes it god-powered. Its great Speed and fair Attack gives it a ton of leg room to wreck anything in the tier, OHKO-ing or 2HKO-ing everything in the tier after +2, thanks to its unparalleled coverage of Flying and Fighting.

I'm interested to watch how this monster fares in UU with the newer threats and additions to the tier, but I'm going to pre-emptively predict that this demigod will be sent to BL, just like its predecessors Manaphy and Volcarona.

 

[effyouzion]

I never thought Hawlucha was broken in beta. I ran a Suicune/mAmph/Doublade/Hawlucha/Jirachi/Krookodile team -- which was basically designed to make Hawlucha's life easier with the slow volt switch from mAmph to get him in safely, then pursuit trapping from Krook to help take care of Slowbro -- but Krook + Suicune ended up sweeping a hell of a lot more often than Hawlucha ever did.

The meta has obviously changed a lot since then, but I think the changes have been worse for Hawlucha than helping him. More priority, more things that can out speed, and more walls. I'll give him another run around but my instinct is no ban.

 

[Patrick1088]

I feel like Hawlucha and Manaphy have similar characteristics. They both really need boosts to be effective. Thanks to Unburden, Hawlucha doesn't HAVE TO invest in speed (although speed creeping opposing Hawlucha is always on your mind and the default in PS! is Adamant 252 EVs speed I'm just saying..). Resists to Fighting, Bug and Knock Off while an immunity to ground gives it opportunities to set up. I don't think it's healthy for the meta since it'll force people to run obscure "counters" like doublade and running stupid stuff like Agility Mega Aero (lol), but then you'll be overpreparing just like with Manaphy with Obscure cores.

"Offensive Pressure" can keep Hawlucha from setting up, but if it manages to set up a SD and nab the Unburden Boost, you're forced to 1. run priority, 2. Sash Zam which most run Psyshock to get past Blissey, isn't even a guaranteed OHKO if Hawlucha runs a bulky set...

252 SpA Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hawlucha: 338-402 (93.8 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

It doesn't even need any EVs for relevant threats (outside of opposing Hawlucha, of course)
3. Gooey Goodra is interesting by lowering the speed, bringing him within range of being RK by all Scarfers base 105 and up (assuming Adamant 252 EVs and speed drop from Gooey, any less EVs and base 100s can RK if scarfed). But, this is pretty obscure to say the least.
4. Intimidate Pokes like Granbull and Qwilfish, which resists fighting. Granbull can easily OHKO with Play Rough and Qwilfish can use Haze to cancel out the Unburden boost.
5. Priority WoW from Sableye + Taunt. But, this creates a 50/50 situation. Will Hawlucha boost with SD (Taunt is better) or will he attack right away with Sky Attack (WoW is better). If you don't predict correctly, you are in trouble

If you go for Burn while they SD....
+2 252+ Atk burned Hawlucha Sky Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 250-294 (82.2 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

If you go for Taunt as they Attack with Sky Attack
252+ Atk Hawlucha Sky Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 250-295 (82.2 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

IMO Hawlucha forces the 50/50 situations like Venomoth, ability to set up and sweep like Manaphy, Speed Tier and Power that can't be reliably checked like NastyPlot/Agility Thundy-T. I think he's pretty obviously broken and it able to sweep pretty easily..

 

[Skankovich]

Isn't Hippo 2HKOed by +2 Hawlucha while the only thing it can do back is phaze?

Phazing is actually pretty effective against Hawlucha however, as if its already unburdened itself you stop it from boosting its speed for the rest of the game, leaving it outsped by a decent bit of the meta as it typically runs adamant.

Mabomasnow helps again, dealing 70%ish with ice shard, but yeah, offensive answers once this thing has the boosts are beyond limited.

 

[alexwolf]

Phazing is actually pretty effective against Hawlucha however, as if its already unburdened itself you stop it from boosting its speed for the rest of the game, leaving it outsped by a decent bit of the meta as it typically runs adamant.

Mabomasnow helps again, dealing 70%ish with ice shard, but yeah, offensive answers once this thing has the boosts are beyond limited.

I was assuming you switch into Hawlucha as it sets up, in which case Unburden won't have been activated. What you refer to is a kind of revenge killing.

 

[Patrick1088]

Skankovich You have to sack something just to get Hippo in safely to phaze if Hawl is at +2. Even you do manage to phaze him out, you still have to deal with a poke who can speed creep base 100s with 252 EVs and Adamant Nature. It can still set up a SD and still wreck face with itemless Acro...

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 312-367 (91.4 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 387-456 (127.3 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 354-417 (100 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 211-249 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 225-265 (65.4 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 349-412 (98.8 - 116.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

The Unburden boost is very good to stop offense teams, but as we've seen in the past with Raptor, there aren't too many flying resists and Hawlucha can still outspeed most of the meta without the boost and tear through teams.

Nobody's going to switch Abomasnow in on Hawlucha, you're just begging to be hit with either STAB...

 

[Skankovich]

Yeah, I calced it wrong earlier and was under the impression there was only a chance to 2hko, but its actually guaranteed. I wasn't suggesting abomasnow as a counter or anything lol, just as something with strong priority that heavily dents luchabird, nabbing the KO after a little prior damage.

It can still hurt stuff at +2 obviously, but it becomes way less of an issue for every team that isn't full stall without the unburden boost.