CAP 19 CAP 19 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

[FireArrow]

Now, as for Iron Barbs, I think you guys misunderstand just how pro-concept this ability is. Yes, CAP's team doesn't want to lose out on the free switch from a double KO due to Iron Barbs, but that won't happen if CAP is KO'd in the 'safest' way, by Earthquake. If the player is sensible, then Iron barbs actively encourages the opponent to plan how to remove CAP without losing their momentum, but by doing so they themselves make somewhat of a sacrifice. This ability with regards to CAP and Gyarados is NOT about the passive damage it brings, instead it's about filtering the moves used to KO CAP.

In short:
Kill CAP quickly and suffer Gyarados.
Kill CAP cautiously, suffer immediate damage (iron barbs, CAP's moves), but prevent Gyarados from setting up.

Which is why static, flame body, gooey, etc. are much better options. Most pokemon won't give a shit about losing 6.25% 12.5% of their health if it means they're not set-up bait.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't realize Pizza Man already responded. Either way, can we agree on no iron barbs? It's possibly the worst in its category and could potentially backfire.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Which is why static, flame body, gooey, etc. are much better options. Most pokemon won't give a shit about losing 6.25% of their health if it means they're not set-up bait.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't realize Pizza Man already responded. Either way, can we agree on no iron barbs? It's possibly the worst in its category and could potentially backfire.

Flame Body is kinda dangerous since it also causes burn, which decreases HP, but other than that I agree

 

[FireArrow]

Flame Body is kinda dangerous since it also causes burn, which decreases HP, but other than that I agree

Oh yeah, cross that one off too (still superior to iron barbs/rough skin >_>)

 

[Deck Knight]

The way I see it, this "category" breaks down as follows:

Static: Permanent Effect, Most Helpful, No backfiring [lewl TR], Unreliable, Punishes U-turn.
Gooey: Temporary Effect, Moderately Helpful, No backfiring [lewl TR], Reliable, Doesn't punish U-turn.
Iron Barbs: Permanent Effect, Moderately Helpful, Potential backfire, Reliable, Punishes U-turn.
Flame Body: Permanent Effect, Potentially Helpful, Potential backfire, Unreliable, Punishes U-turn.

This makes Gooey the "safest" of the four in the immediate sense by being both reliable and unquestionably helpful for Gyarados (which outspeeds a significant number of -1 Pokemon), while Iron Barbs is a little riskier but more punishing to a specific kind of attack strategy.

I'd like to point out though that Iron Barbs / Rough Skin is incredibly hard to "exploit" unless you know for a fact the 12.5% damage is going to KO your contact attacker as it KO's CAP19. This means either the Pokemon in question is in after taking SR damage / Spikes damage, or that cumulative recoil damage plus proper prediction of CAP19's attack will lead it into that select range.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

The way I see it, this "category" breaks down as follows:

Static: Permanent Effect, Most Helpful, No backfiring [lewl TR], Unreliable, Punishes U-turn.
Gooey: Temporary Effect, Moderately Helpful, No backfiring [lewl TR], Reliable, Doesn't punish U-turn.
Iron Barbs: Permanent Effect, Moderately Helpful, Potential backfire, Reliable, Punishes U-turn.
Flame Body: Permanent Effect, Potentially Helpful, Potential backfire, Unreliable, Punishes U-turn.

This makes Gooey the "safest" of the four in the immediate sense by being both reliable and unquestionably helpful for Gyarados (which outspeeds a significant number of -1 Pokemon), while Iron Barbs is a little riskier but more punishing to a specific kind of attack strategy.

I'd like to point out though that Iron Barbs / Rough Skin is incredibly hard to "exploit" unless you know for a fact the 12.5% damage is going to KO your contact attacker as it KO's CAP19. This means either the Pokemon in question is in after taking SR damage / Spikes damage, or that cumulative recoil damage plus proper prediction of CAP19's attack will lead it into that select range.

The thing is that your 12.5% of damage is going to accumulate over time. Really the only thing thats really needed is for both the attacker and CAP19 to be at low health, or CAP19 at a point where a certain contact move can 2HKO it at that range and the attacker is at 25% or less, or if it 3HKOs at that point, then 37.5% or less, and it goes on and on. Also even if Iron Barbs/Rough Skin is hard to exploit, Gooey/Static isn't exploitable at all barring TR, which isn't even that common in OU in the first place.

 

[Phione]

Regenerator is just a good ability in general, and I don't see how it particularly helps the concept.
Iron Barbs and Rough Skin do punish attackers, but if I remember correctly, we aren't trying to punish attackers by making them take damage, we're trying to make them regret letting Gyara switch in free.
Water Absorb seems interesting, but I'm not really sure we need it.
Static, Flame Body, and Effect Spore don't seem too exploitable, honestly, unless said Poke is setup bait when paralyzed or burned. Too unreliable.
Cursed Body seems like an excellent way to cripple attackers, but too unreliable.
I'm going for Gooey. Sure, the opponent can just switch once it kills us, but Mega Gyara can exploit that to set up, and if the opponent doesn't switch, they suddenly find themselves outran and their situation grim.

 

[Sun King]

What about something like Marvel Scale? Rather than a needless immunity to water, we could punish the scald by increasing our defensive prowess. Additionally, it would help against Grass-Types spamming Spore/Sleep Powder.

My problem with Gooey and Static is that they require a contact move, and special attackers that deter Gyarados will be largely unaffected by that.

 

[Bughouse]

Before you seriously consider an after-contact ability on CAP 19, maybe you should take a look at what mon even wants to use a contact move on the CAP.

Hint: there are very few

Let's run down the ranks:
S: Azumarill won't stay in, Charizard X will EQ, Keldeo is a special attacker, Mawile we resist both STABs so it may switch out but nothing can really set up on it anyway so weakening it is irrelevant to the concept, Thundurus won't stay in
A: Charizard Y is a special attacker, Clefable won't stay in, Excadrill will EQ, Garchomp will EQ, Greninja will Extrasensory or won't stay in, Gyarados will EQ or won't stay in, Heatran is a a special attacker, Latias is a special attacker, Latios is a special attacker, Pinsir will either have EQ or won't stay in, Talonflame might Flare Blitz or won't stay in, Terrakion will Stone Edge or won't stay in, Tyranitar will EQ, Venusaur will EQ or is a special attacker, Bisharp will Knock Off or Sucker Punch (not that we really want to switch in Gyarados and activate its Defiant afterwards...)

I could go on, but I'm not going to literally list all the relevant threats in the metagame in this thread. We have analyses and also experience for that.

The only importance to any contact ability is one that has a long lasting effect, since the only way almost any contact moves will get used on CAP 19 is if you switch CAP 19 in on them. And then if the matchup is bad, who cares if Gooey activated, it'll just switch out. Heck on Bisharp, it'll stay in and be +2...

So in terms of important long lasting contact abilities, the only relevant ones I see are Flame Body or Static as those two can help enable something else to set up later if it activates on the right opposing mon.

 

[Mova]

Marvel Scale could easily work, as stated above, since we could increase the CAP's tanking abilities by switching into burn-inducing moves, such as Scald from Keldeo, etc. Dry Skin could also help in this regard.

I agree with Aftermath being anti-concept, since it allows that free switch-in if the opponent is KO'd.

 

[Deck Knight]

I think the experience of Static Cyclohm in the CAP metagame (a metagame where a Static mon is highly viable) gives enough indication of what to keep in mind. Way back during that project I promoted Static on Cyclohm knowing that the *entire* point of the ability was to fish for paralysis on a resisted or tankable contact attack. Nobody deliberately attacks a Static mon with contact moves unless they absolutely have to, but being able to switch in multiple times on contact attacks gave the ability a sense of reliability. The very fact these contact abilities will heavily bias attack choice on CAP to moves Gyarados wants to tank is a mark in their favor, whichever one is selected, if any.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

So far, the abilities I like the most are Static, Dry Skin, and Storm Drain. Static may not be as reliable to activate as Gooey, but once activated the effect is both greater and is much harder to be removed as well. Dry Skin I slightly favor over Water Absorb because it encourages fire types to come in, which hopefully Gyarados can use to set up on later. The biggest thing with Dry Skin and Storm Drain, however, is being immune to burns from scald, something Gyarados doesn't like at all. Storm Drain's special attack boost overall is something I think could be quite helpful as well, as it could allow CAP19 to take out some threats that Gyarados can't. So far, however, there is somewhat of a debate on how useful the water immunity abilities will be. Yes, Gyarados generally will tank water attacks well on his own, it's just that he doesn't like Scalds.

Another ability that hasn't seen much attention that I'd like to throw out there is Shed Skin. Over the course of a few turns, Shed Skin provides fairly reliable status recovery, which can be used to get out of being burned or asleep (both statuses that our "partner" Gyarados hates). Shed Skin as an ability in general dissuades the opponent from trying to status CAP19. Whether or not this dissuades a KO (as per the concept) isn't quite as cut and dry, but at the very least you are still dissuading some of the potentially lethal tools that the opponent might have. Additionally, Shed Skin isn't a terrible ability even if one removes Gyarados from the picture (though it doesn't give horrible synergy with Gyarados either by any means).

-Brief Overview-
Static: Discourages KO by contact moves, and Gyarados has an easier time setting up on paralyzed foes in some situations
Dry Skin: Makes KO by water moves impossible (bar mold breaker), stops scald burns, somewhat encourages fire types to KO and thus allows Gyarados to set up against them
Storm Drain: Makes KO by water moves impossible (bar mold breaker), stops scald burns, allows for a special attack buff to potentially help KO walls that Gyarados might have trouble with.
Shed Skin: Discourages harmful status moves, somewhat protects against burns and sleep, works on all forms of primary status (whereas the water immunity abilities only protect against a fraction of burn moves)

At this point, my favorite two are probably Storm Drain and Static, though I'm looking forward to reading more discussion before I become sold on any ability yet.

 

[Salt]

On Iron Barbs: I feel that the issue of a Pokemon killing itself by attacking Iron Barbs CAP is being blown out of proportion. How often does a Pokemon actually die from Iron Barbs, even if it's not intentional? The only time where Iron Barbs becomes potentially deadly is when it's combined with Rocky Helmet and/or when your opponent is reliant on Life Orb and/or recoil moves. Considering the facts that Rocky Helmet is optional, the only thing on our threatlist this affects is CB Talonflame locked into Flare Blitz, and our CAP is unlikely to be targeted by contact moves (as outlined in srk's post), then the reasoning that we should avoid Iron Barbs because some mon that we could set up on can kill itself so we can't use it is flawed.

That said, I still think Iron Barbs, Gooey, and other contact abilities with relatively inconsequencial effects should be avoided. I referred to srk's post above, and he basically outlined why we shouldn't bother with these kinds of abilities because so few Pokemon will target us with contact moves, so it isn't worth having an ability like this as a primary ability. Basically, we should avoid Iron Barbs (and like abilities) because of their relatively insignificant effects, not because of their potential "risk" to the concept.

Note: Don't lump Static/Flame body into that group because their effects have much greater impact and can potentially dissuade attackers from using certain moves. I'm actually rather fond of these abilities because of this, despite their unreliability.

 

[FireArrow]

On Iron Barbs: I feel that the issue of a Pokemon killing itself by attacking Iron Barbs CAP is being blown out of proportion. How often does a Pokemon actually die from Iron Barbs, even if it's not intentional? The only time where Iron Barbs becomes potentially deadly is when it's combined with Rocky Helmet and/or when your opponent is reliant on Life Orb and/or recoil moves. Considering the facts that Rocky Helmet is optional, the only thing on our threatlist this affects is CB Talonflame locked into Flare Blitz, and our CAP is unlikely to be targeted by contact moves (as outlined in srk's post), then the reasoning that we should avoid Iron Barbs because some mon that we could set up on can kill itself so we can't use it is flawed.

It's not that it's a high probability, it's the fact that there is a probability when we have options (such as static) that don't.

 

[Psychic Daryl]

Okay, now that both my posts were deleted, (Whoever deleted it, please check that I had already deleted the other one!) here it is again, DO NOT DELETE. Changed Poison Point to Static. And Aftermath. Duh, fits the concept perfectly. EDIT: I thought about Serene Grace, as a 60% poisoning chance would take down many threats.

 

[alexwolf]

Before you seriously consider an after-contact ability on CAP 19, maybe you should take a look at what mon even wants to use a contact move on the CAP.

Hint: there are very few

Let's run down the ranks:
S: Azumarill won't stay in, Charizard X will EQ, Keldeo is a special attacker, Mawile we resist both STABs so it may switch out but nothing can really set up on it anyway so weakening it is irrelevant to the concept, Thundurus won't stay in
A: Charizard Y is a special attacker, Clefable won't stay in, Excadrill will EQ, Garchomp will EQ, Greninja will Extrasensory or won't stay in, Gyarados will EQ or won't stay in, Heatran is a a special attacker, Latias is a special attacker, Latios is a special attacker, Pinsir will either have EQ or won't stay in, Talonflame might Flare Blitz or won't stay in, Terrakion will Stone Edge or won't stay in, Tyranitar will EQ, Venusaur will EQ or is a special attacker, Bisharp will Knock Off or Sucker Punch (not that we really want to switch in Gyarados and activate its Defiant afterwards...)

I could go on, but I'm not going to literally list all the relevant threats in the metagame in this thread. We have analyses and also experience for that.

The only importance to any contact ability is one that has a long lasting effect, since the only way almost any contact moves will get used on CAP 19 is if you switch CAP 19 in on them. And then if the matchup is bad, who cares if Gooey activated, it'll just switch out. Heck on Bisharp, it'll stay in and be +2...

So in terms of important long lasting contact abilities, the only relevant ones I see are Flame Body or Static as those two can help enable something else to set up later if it activates on the right opposing mon.

Iron Barbs are supposed to wear down Pokemon with physical contact moves that could check Mega Gyarados, such as Superpower Mega Scizor, Choice Scarf Landorus-T and Choice Scarf Terrakion (which will be using Superpower / Close Combat to revenge kill Mega Gyarados), Choice Scarf Garchomp (Outrage if Mega Gyarados is healthy enough to tank Earthquake), Talonflame, Breloom (uses Mach Punch to revenge kill), and Extremspeed users such as Dragonite, Lucario, and Entei. With some Healing Wish support for Mega Gyarados those Pokemon could be forced to come in multiple times to deal with Mega Gyarados, which means multiple rounds of Iron Barbs damage, which when coupled with potential Rocky Helmet and Stealth Rock damage could even KO those Pokemon in the process, allowing Mega Gyarados to sweep. I don't know if this fits the idea of the concept that we have, but it definitely discourages the opponent from attacking and KOing the CAP, because this could possibly allow Mega Gyarados to sweep.

Also, i want to remind us that Mega Charizard X and Dragonite are other sweepers we also want to help, which also benefit from the CAP's ability to wear down checks with Iron Barbs, such as Azumarill, Mega Scizor (for Dragonite), Talonflame, Mega Mawile (Dragonite), and Extremspeed users.

 

[Base Speed]

I'd like to throw my support behind Dry Skin. It adds to CAP19's ability to lure what we want to lure and beat what we want to beat. If it does end up encouraging rain to be run alongside CAP19, that isn't exactly a bad thing for Gyarados as it boosts it's Water STAB and the fact that opposing M-Gyarados can circumvent it with Mold Breaker is neat, though not hugely consequential. I'm struggling to see a convincing argument against this ability, and given it's been discussed plenty already, I shall say no more about it.

I view contact punishment as a cheap and short-sighted addition to the concept: Yes, it fulfills what we are trying to achieve on paper, in a very basic sense, but as srk has pointed out, there's little that's actually meant to make contact with us.
As for specific abilities, I strongly dislike Static and Flame Body because they are luck-based: we'd be basing our CAP around an event that has a mere 30% chance of occurring and I don't like the idea of successfully using our CAP being down to chance rather than skill. Sure, you can throw phrases like "mind games" and "discouragement" around to justify them, but at the end of the day, it's a hax-based strategy. It's cheap, not fun to play against and frankly if you want a luck-based strategy, there are better options.
Iron Barbs is better, but I find it hard to believe that it'll prove useful in anything but niche situations. Multiply the low probability of us getting struck by contact (as detailed by srk) with the low probability of 12.5% damage having a meaningful impact on the game and in my opinion the resulting probability is too low to justify Iron Barbs. Yes, you can come up with examples of when Pokemon will make contact with us, and yes you can come up with situations when losing 12.5% will impact the game, but both have to happen at the same time for Iron Barbs to be any good.
While Gooey still suffers from the need for contact, I feel the chance of a speed drop having an impact on the game is much greater than the chance of 12.5% lost HP having an impact, as it can shift momentum, force switches and maybe (more likely than Iron Barbs, anyway) buy a set up opportunity for M-Gyarados. If you guys really desperately want a contact punishing ability, at least make it Gooey...

 

[NumberCruncher]

So here's a basic summary of the abilities we're looking at right now.

(Dry Skin/Water Absorb/Storm Drain)

Of the three, Dry Skin has garnered the most support. The general consensus is that we want this ability to beat Scald and Scald alone. This makes me wonder whether we actually want Marvel Scale or Guts, as were suggested by Integer Mova and Toebag respctively, since they stops Will-O'-Wisps as well.

(Iron Barbs/Rough Skin/Static/Gooey/Aftermath/Mummy/Flame Body/Effect Spore/Cursed Body)

I lumped all these together since they're all basically the same ability. The one garnering the most support is Gooey, but Iron Barbs and Static have their supporters too. The one with the least support is Mummy for knocking the Mold Breaker of Gyarados.

Other abilities that have garnered support, though not to the degree the others are Regenerator, Tinted Lens, Serene Grace, Magnet Pull, and Sheer Force.

That being said, the ones I think have the most potential in the first two categories are Marvel Scale, Gooey, and Static. Marvel Scale does what we want Dry Skin to do, and more to boot. Gyarados always appreciates a slow opponent, and parahax can be a nice side bonus.

I also think we should be looking more at the last category for ideas, though Magnet Pull seems questionable to me.

 

[Sun King]

One of the main reasons I suggested Marvel Scale over something like Static or Gooey or Flame Body is because the latter three only work some of the time. Meaning that while, yes, they could deter physical attackers, they aren't flat out stopping them. Also, those abilities are dead weight against status moves like WoW or special moves like Scald. Marvel Scale doesn't ever stop working, and it makes trying to wear this CAP down through residual damage very unappealing. It also makes spamming Scald very unattractive as well.

 

[Ignus]

Alright. I'm here to yell about the drawbacks of one ability in particular: Gooey.

Everyone knows what the ability does by now. You take a contact move, you lower your opponent's speed by 1 stage. Pretty straightforward. So what targets does this help Gyarados set up on? Actually, the truth is, not much. Here's a compiled list of Pokemon in OU that outspeed Mega Gyarados at +1, Including Scarf users and Priority, who don't let it set up easily (in this case, easily refers them to being able to at least 3hko Gyarados. Gyara can take the hit from the threat, but doesn't want to. This factors in Gyara Intimidate.)

• Breloom
• Conkeldurr
• Excadrill
• Garchomp
• Landorus-T
• Rotom-W
• Talonflame
• Terrakion

So which Pokemon, out of what's left, can 3hko or less Mega-Gyara, and will be slower the first attack because of a Gooey proc?

• Breloom (mach punch. Priority)
• Conkeldurr (Priority)
• Excadrill (Earthquake doesn't proc Gooey)
• Garchomp (Earthquake AND Outrage 2-3hko, Only outrage is effected)
• Landorus-T
• Rotom-W (Doesn't make contact)
• Talonflame (Priority)
• Terrakion (Still hurts, even after an Intimidate, but is the only threat that becomes a possible setup opportunity after gooey)

Now from the same list, who is handled well by our typing? (bolded pokemon are handled by CAP's Typing, and therefore won't be setup bait for Gyara in the first place)

• Breloom
• Conkeldurr
• Excadrill
• Garchomp
• Landorus-T
• Rotom-W (Depends on if Volt Switch is used)
• Talonflame (Depends on if Brave Bird is locked in, electric offensively handles it)
• Terrakion (depends on if Close combat is locked in)

So who's left?

• Breloom
• Conkeldurr
• Excadrill
• Garchomp
• Landorus-T
• Rotom-W
• Talonflame
• Terrakion

Just Garchomp and Terrakion are sort of left from the original lists, both of which it's debatable whether or not Gooey actually turns them into setup bait in the first place. Therefore, I believe Gooey doesn't push forward the concept, as it doesn't allow Gyara an opportunity to sweep in the large majority of situations. It's like a less useful version of Thudurus's Prankster Thunder Wave - it doesn't help us discourage our opponent from making us faint, and it shouldn't be treated as such.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Alright. I'm here to yell about the drawbacks of one ability in particular: Gooey.

Everyone knows what the ability does by now. You take a contact move, you lower your opponent's speed by 1 stage. Pretty straightforward. So what targets does this help Gyarados set up on? Actually, the truth is, not much. Here's a compiled list of Pokemon in OU that outspeed Mega Gyarados at +1, Including Scarf users and Priority, who don't let it set up easily (in this case, easily refers them to being able to at least 3hko Gyarados. Gyara can take the hit from the threat, but doesn't want to. This factors in Gyara Intimidate.)

• Breloom
• Conkeldurr
• Excadrill
• Garchomp
• Landorus-T
• Rotom-W
• Talonflame
• Terrakion

So which Pokemon, out of what's left, can 3hko or less Mega-Gyara, and will be slower the first attack because of a Gooey proc?

• Breloom (mach punch. Priority)
• Conkeldurr (Priority)
• Excadrill (Earthquake doesn't proc Gooey)
• Garchomp (Earthquake AND Outrage 2-3hko, Only outrage is effected)
• Landorus-T
• Rotom-W (Doesn't make contact)
• Talonflame (Priority)
• Terrakion (Still hurts, even after an Intimidate, but is the only threat that becomes a possible setup opportunity after gooey)

Now from the same list, who is handled well by our typing? (bolded pokemon are handled by CAP's Typing, and therefore won't be setup bait for Gyara in the first place)

• Breloom
• Conkeldurr
• Excadrill
• Garchomp
• Landorus-T
• Rotom-W (Depends on if Volt Switch is used)
• Talonflame (Depends on if Brave Bird is locked in, electric offensively handles it)
• Terrakion (depends on if Close combat is locked in)

So who's left?

• Breloom
• Conkeldurr
• Excadrill
• Garchomp
• Landorus-T
• Rotom-W
• Talonflame
• Terrakion

Just Garchomp and Terrakion are sort of left from the original lists, both of which it's debatable whether or not Gooey actually turns them into setup bait in the first place. Therefore, I believe Gooey doesn't push forward the concept, as it doesn't allow Gyara an opportunity to sweep in the large majority of situations. It's like a less useful version of Thudurus's Prankster Thunder Wave - it doesn't help us discourage our opponent from making us faint, and it shouldn't be treated as such.

Problem for this is that when you're scarfed, I highly dobut your going to use Earthquake when Gyarados can be immune to it, and 2 out of the 3 Pokemon that you just mentioned who aren't handled by our typing are often scarfed, so how on earth are they going to use Earthquake, avoid the Gooey drop, and use a different move to attack Gyarados all while holding a choice scarf?

 

[Ignus]

What I'm saying is that Gooey does NOT increase our ability to set up on these pokemon. Gyarados isn't going to take less hits because of Gooey. Gooey won't make setup easier. That was the whole point of the post. Gooey is redundant because it doesn't change the amount of pokemon we can set up on. The point I was trying to make was that Gooey makes it no easier to set up even in the worst case scenario.

 

[alexwolf]

Ignus is completely right, Gooey does nothing to help Mega Gyarados set up, it just helps it revenge kill stuff, which is not what we want.

Also, i don't like Guts because it shoehorns us into going physical, while our typing works better with special, because Thunderbolt and Sludge Wave are much better STABs than ThunderPunch, Wild Charge, and Poison Jab (i guess Gunk Shot is nice, but i still prefer Sludge Wave for the better accuracy). Not to mention that by going special we are guaranteed to have Hidden Power to deal with Ground-types and not let Pokemon such as Gliscor set up a Sub and proceed to Toxic stall Mega Gyarados after they KO the CAP.

Marvel Scale seems useful in theory, but the truth is that burn damage will offset the added physical bulk you will gain over the course of the battle, not to mention that your special bulk was also drastically decrease when burned.

On the other hand, Iron Barbs actively wears down Mega Gyarados's checks and counters and discourages the opponent from attacking and sometimes even KOing the CAP, Prankster has a lot of useful applications that all help Mega Gyarados, and Dry Skin, Water Absorb, and Storm Drain all deal with the Water-types that plague Gyarados. Those abilities are my favorites right now.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Ignus is completely right, Gooey does nothing to help Mega Gyarados set up, it just helps it revenge kill stuff, which is not what we want.

Also, i don't like Guts because it shoehorns us into going physical, while our typing works better with special, because Thunderbolt and Sludge Wave are much better STABs than ThunderPunch, Wild Charge, and Poison Jab (i guess Gunk Shot is nice, but i still prefer Sludge Wave for the better accuracy). Not to mention that by going special we are guaranteed to have Hidden Power to deal with Ground-types and not let Pokemon such as Gliscor set up a Sub and proceed to Toxic stall Mega Gyarados after they KO the CAP.

Marvel Scale seems useful in theory, but the truth is that burn damage will offset the added physical bulk you will gain over the course of the battle, not to mention that your special bulk was also drastically decrease when burned.

On the other hand, Iron Barbs actively wears down Mega Gyarados's check and counters and discourages the opponent from attacking and sometimes even KOing the CAP, Prankster has a lot of useful applications that all help Mega Gyarados, and Dry Skin, Water Absorb, and Storm Drain all deal with the Water-types that plague Gyarados. Those abilities are my favorites right now.

Even if what you say about Gooey is right, Iron Barbs is also incredibly risky, simply because of the fact that it can be abused, like we said as long as they can OHKO CAP19 at the current health they are at and they are in the range of dieing to Iron Barbs, they can basically just use that contact move, create a double KO, and basically bring in a poke who can destroy Mega Gyarados, while this is situational, I honestly would rather have an ability where this doesn't happen.

Prankster I'm not really seeing much, I don't really see how its going to help us out since we need more of an offensive poke here, but if you explain it a bit better maybe I can change my mind.

And yes I definitely agree with Water Absorbing abilities, especially Dry Skin. These can help stop Scalds which can cripple us quite badly and in the case of Dry Skin they also make us weaker to fire,which can help us lure in more pokes

 

[alexwolf]

Even if what you say about Gooey is right, Iron Barbs is also incredibly risky, simply because of the fact that it can be abused, like we said as long as they can OHKO CAP19 at the current health they are at and they are in the range of dieing to Iron Barbs, they can basically just use that contact move, create a double KO, and basically bring in a poke who can destroy Mega Gyarados, while this is situational, I honestly would rather have an ability where this doesn't happen.

Prankster I'm not really seeing much, I don't really see how its going to help us out since we need more of an offensive poke here, but if you explain it a bit better maybe I can change my mind.

And yes I definitely agree with Water Absorbing abilities, especially Dry Skin. These can help stop Scalds which can cripple us quite badly and in the case of Dry Skin they also make us weaker to fire,which can help us lure in more pokes

I already explained how Iron Barbs help wear down Mega Gyarados's revenge killers, and if they happen to get KOed, who cares, which just removed Mega Gyarados's check and Mega Gyarados can still find plenty of set up chances on itself. Iron Barbs are not meant to punish defensive answers or potential set up targets of Mega Gyarados, but wear down its offensive checks, especially revenge killers such as Scarf and priority users.

Once more, here is the list of revenge killers to Mega Gyarados that Iron Brabs help with: Superpower Mega Scizor, Choice Scarf Landorus-T and Choice Scarf Terrakion (which will be using Superpower / Close Combat to revenge kill Mega Gyarados), Choice Scarf Garchomp (Outrage if Mega Gyarados is healthy enough to tank Earthquake), Talonflame, Breloom (uses Mach Punch to revenge kill), and Extremspeed users such as Dragonite, Lucario, and Entei.

As for Prankster, offensive Pokemon can utilize this move pretty well too, see Thundurus. Imagine a less broken Thundurus with priority Healing Wish and Thunder Wave for example, to check fast answers to Mega Gyarados and give him a second chance at sweeping. Or priority Taunt to prevent potentially faster Pokemon from setting up on us, Pokemon that Mega Gyarados wants to set up on but can't if they have set up previously (SubToxic Gliscor, SD Garchomp).

 

[Da Pizza Man]

I already explained how Iron Barbs help wear down Mega Gyarados's revenge killers, and if they happen to get KOed, who cares, which just removed Mega Gyarados's check and Mega Gyarados can still find plenty of set up chances on itself. Iron Barbs are not meant to punish defensive answers or potential set up targets of Mega Gyarados, but wear down its offensive checks, especially revenge killers such as Scarf and priority users.

Once more, here is the list of revenge killers to Mega Gyarados that Iron Brabs help with: Superpower Mega Scizor, Choice Scarf Landorus-T and Choice Scarf Terrakion (which will be using Superpower / Close Combat to revenge kill Mega Gyarados), Choice Scarf Garchomp (Outrage if Mega Gyarados is healthy enough to tank Earthquake), Talonflame, Breloom (uses Mach Punch to revenge kill), and Extremspeed users such as Dragonite, Lucario, and Entei.

As for Prankster, offensive Pokemon can utilize this move pretty well too, see Thundurus. Imagine a less broken Thundurus with priority Healing Wish and Thunder Wave for example, to check fast answers to Mega Gyarados and give him a second chance at sweeping. Or priority Taunt to prevent potentially faster Pokemon from setting up on us, Pokemon that Mega Gyarados wants to set up on but can't if they have set up previously (SubToxic Gliscor, SD Garchomp).

Yeah I'm still not really seeing it in Iron Barbs, and quite frankly I'm not really liking Gooey so much either now, really the more you look at it the less helpful these contact abilities seem to be, since they either are all either unreliable (Flame Body, Effect Spore, Static), don't really do to much (Gooey), or have some potential downsides (Iron Barbs/Rough Skin), although Prankster now looks pretty nice.