Other OU Theorymon [Revamped]

[dadoux]

You can't compare greninja, mega lucario and archeops at all.

 

[Anduril]

You can't compare greninja, mega lucario and archeops at all.

Why not? With this change, they all become extremely quick and powerful attackers, though I agree that Lucario isn't as comparable bc of it's higher bulk

 

[dadoux]

Greninja has a stab for every move and can change typing. He is not SR weak and it can finish off a team, archeops can't really do that.

 

[Valmanway]

also Valmanway it does get moonblast fwiw but i think it may have some illegalities.

Ah, I forgot about the event. If it wants Moonblast though, it'll have to forgo Body Slam, the elemental punches, Trick, and most of all, Iron Head.

 

[Salemance]

Ah, I forgot about the event. If it wants Moonblast though, it'll have to forgo Body Slam, the elemental punches, Trick, and most of all, Iron Head.

Which is why Jirachi is in an iffy situation to begin with there. Too bad no HP fairy.....

 

[Valmanway]

Which is why Jirachi is in an iffy situation to begin with there. Too bad no HP fairy.....

Though a specially defensive set could work, since it gets Wish, as well as Healing Wish for support.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

um, can't it learn dazzling gleam via TM? It's not the best move but it ain't bad as STAB. It still doesn't mesh well with Iron Head, but it's somethin...

 

[Valmanway]

um, can't it learn dazzling gleam via TM? It's not the best move but it ain't bad as STAB. It still doesn't mesh well with Iron Head, but it's somethin...

It does, but Jirachi is a Pokemon that's meant to abuse Serene Grace, and since Dazzling Gleam has no effect, I doubt Jirachi would have much use for it outside of maybe coverage.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

It does, but Jirachi is a Pokemon that's meant to abuse Serene Grace, and since Dazzling Gleam has no effect, I doubt Jirachi would have much use for it outside of maybe coverage.

That was mostly a response to the desire for HP Fairy. As it is, I think we can all agree that the fairy typing does not help Jirachi much at all offensively. Most of its sets still work, but all the retyping does imo is make it more consistent on the defensive end.

 

[alexwolf]

Guys, Moonblast doesn't fit that well on physical sets anyway, as Wish Jirachi prefers Body Slam, Thunder Wave, or Toxic to take advantage of Iron Head. Moonblast should be used on Calm Mind and special Expert Belt sets:

Jirachi @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Fire

Moonblast + Psyshock + Hidden Power Ground is great coverage and leaves very few holes, such as Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor, and Skarmory, of which Ferrothorn is set up bait, Skarmory is 2HKOed by +1 Moonblast and can only phaze, leaving only Mega Scizor as a threat, which can't immediately threaten back Jirachi anyway, as it needs to boost with Swords Dance and have Superpower to stand a chance against Jirachi. On the last slot, Hidden Power Ground covers Heatran, Magnezone, Victini, Mega Mawile, and Excadrill, all dangerous Pokemon to Jirachi. Hidden Power Fire nails Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn harder, but they can't do much damage back to Jirachi as explained already, and Pokemon such as Heatran and Victini are much more dangerous to Jirachi.

Leftovers always pairs better on bulky CM boosters, but Life Orb with a Modest nature is very nice to 2HKO Chansey at +1 and after SR damage, do 86% damage minimum to physically defensive Hippowdon, 87% to max HP Lando-T, 98% to max HP Gliscor, 86.5% to SpD Heatran, 2HKO Unaware Clefable, and in general wallbreak much more effectively.

And here is the Expert Belt set:

Jirachi @ Expert Belt
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Moonblast
- Hidden Power Fire / Ground
- Psyshock
- Energy Ball / Thunderbolt

Thunderbolt deals with Talonflame, Mega Charizard Y, Skarmory (if you don't have Hidden power Fire), and bulky Water-types, Hidden Power Ground is mostly for Heatran, Energy Ball still deals with Water-types and also gets a strong hit against Rotom-W and Hippowdon, while Psyshock deals with Mega Venusaur, Amoonguss, Gengar, Talonflame and Mega Charizard Y (if running Energy Ball).

Or even Scarf sets:

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature / Timid
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt
- Healing Wish / Psyshock
- U-turn / Psyshock

Remember how we always wanted a fast Fairy-type with actual physical bulk, unlike Mega Gardevoir? Meet Scarf Jirachi! Scarfed Moonblast is an amazing revenge killing tool for the likes of Keldeo, Greninja, Terrakion, Latios, Latias, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Gyarados, +1 Dragonite, and Gyarados, while Thunderbolt revenge kills Talonflame and Mega Pinsir, as well as regular Gyarados. Psyshock is nice to nail Poison-types but it's very weak, so Healing Wish is the preffered option imo. Lastly, U-turn for momentum, or Psyshock if you really need it. A Timid nature can be used to outspeed Adamant max Speed Charizard X at +1, but non bulky DD Char X is rare and you can't do that much back with Moonblast anyway.

EDIT: Removed Trick, thx Valmanway!

 

[Valmanway]

Guys, Moonblast doesn't fit that well on physical sets anyway, as Wish Jirachi prefers Body Slam, Thunder Wave, or Toxic to take advantage of Iron Head. Moonblast should be used on Calm Mind and special Expert Belt sets:

Jirachi @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Fire

Moonblast + Psyshock + Hidden Power Ground is great coverage and leaves very few holes, such as Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor, and Skarmory, of which Ferrothorn is set up bait, Skarmory is 2HKOed by +1 Moonblast and can only phaze, leaving only Mega Scizor as a threat, which can't immediately threaten back Jirachi anyway, as needs to boost with Swords Dance and have Superpower to stand a chance against Jirachi. On the last slot, Hidden Power covers Heatran, Magnezone, Victini, Mega Mawile, and Excadrill, all potentiall dangerous Pokemon for Jirachi to face. Hidden Power Fire nails Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn harder, but they can't do much damage back to Jirachi as explained already, and Pokemon such as Heatran and Victini are much more dangerous to Jirachi.

Leftovers always pairs better on bulky CM boosters, but Life Orb with a Modest nature is very nice to 2HKO Chansey at +1 and after SR damage, do 86% damage minimum to physically defensive Hippowdon, 87% to max HP Lando-T, 98% to max HP Gliscor, 86.5% to SpD Heatran, 2HKO Unaware Clefable, and in general wallbreak much more easily.

And here is the Expert Belt set:

Jirachi @ Expert Belt
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Moonblast
- Hidden Power Fire / Ground
- Psyshock
- Energy Ball / Thunderbolt

Thunderbolt deals with Talonflame, Mega Charizard Y, Skarmory (if you don't have Hidden power Fire), and bulky Water-types, Hidden Power Ground is mostly for Heatran, Energy Ball still deals with Water-types and also gets a strong hit against Rotom-W and Hippowdon, while Psyshock deals with Mega Venusaur, Amoonguss, Gengar, Talonflame and Mega Charizard Y (if running Energy Ball).

Or even Scarf sets:

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt
- Healing Wish / Trick / Psyshock
- U-turn / Trick / Psyshock

Remember how we always wanted a fast Fairy-type with actual physical bulk, unlike Mega Gardevoir? Meet Scarf Jirachi. Scarfed Moonblast is an amazing revenge killing tool for the likes of Keldeo, Greninja, Terrakion, Latios, Latias, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Gyarados, and Gyarados, while Thunderbolt revenge kills Talonflame and Mega Pinsir, as well as regular Gyarados. Psyshock is nice to nail Poison-types but it's very weak, so Healing Wish is the preffered option imo. Lastly, U-turn for momentum, or Psyshock if you really need it. Trick is also a nice option to cripple walls.

Moonblast + Trick is an illegal combination. Moonblast is a 6th gen event move, while Trick is a 5th gen tutor move.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

Offensive CM jirachi set

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Thunderbolt

basically, superachi 2.0. you have STAB moonblast, HP ground to hit heatran, and thunderbolt hits zard y who now is running modest nature more and more so you have timid as to not get fucked. also, pls get the ladder up. i wanna test this stuff.

 

[Salemance]

I'm still debating what I think could be the most optimal set for Electivire pure wall breaker (its literally pick and choose your counters with this thing which is very nice) as T-Punch, Cross Chop, Psychic, and Ice Punch cover so much already but get stopped in some areas (sometimes you may not miss that Eq, but other times you will) but his scarfed set (which I think will be quite interesting) would resemble a similar issue to his wall breaking set cause you can very easily pick and choose what you wish to have E-Vire handle. Do you want the bugger to be revenge killing Greninja? (Guranteed OHKO if still Water, 93.8% chance after SR on all moves not immune/resistant to Electric(and if he does do HP Grass, Ice Punch!)) Latios (56.3% chance to go after SR)? Keldeo (its dead with T-Punch as compared to Wild Charge actually giving it a chance to live)?


As I said, the main issue I can think of with just fitting E-Vire on a team is just the fact he cant hit everything. He must pick and choose what to break so he isn't giving quite the same luxury as Lando-I who can dominate without much issue. I myself would prefer running on pure physical attacker the T-Punch, I-Punch, Cross Chop and pick and choose for the third (Fire Punch? EQ? Psychic? He's got plenty if too many options). So in the end, it would be something like this:

Electivire @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Attack / 4 Sp Atk / 252 Spd
Naïve Nature
- Thunder Punch
- Cross Chop
- Ice Punch
- Psychic/Whatever the hell you want

As I still think this does damn well by itself as without LO, it may not be able to muscle past Mega Venu and a few other walls without investing Specially, he is more than capable of hitting the more offensive mons of the metagame and taking them out of contention for the team while if you decide to go the mall wall breaking route, you are muscling past most if not all the traditional OU Stall mons with a more mixed set:

Electivire @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 96 Atk / 212 Sp Atk / 200 Spd
Naïve Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Cross Chop
- Psychic/Ice Punch
- Earthquake

This tricky part bout this set is the slot between Psychic and Ice Punch. While EQ is needed to be able to 2hKO the fire types Stall generally uses (it outspeeds the Bulky Char X wisp set with a good chance of living EQ if no hazards) and OHKO in Heatrans case, the choice between being able to defeat Gliscor v Mega Venu and Chestnaught is the major issue. Amoonguss falls to both moves, but its basically pick your poison in this scenario but both can be handle by team mates but to force something else to pick off something your wall breaker could have handled if it just had one more moveslot is a bit annoying, it does give the opposing team the worry of what exactly is that last coverage move of his?

That's how I view his two best sets anyway or least in my case.

EDIT: if the top part of this post seems a little inconsistent, its probably because ive been writing this on and off again for better part of two hours now. School work man, lol

 

[alexwolf]

The harder to wall Electivire set is this:

Electivire @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 40 Atk / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Rash Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic
- Ice Punch
- Cross Chop

Going special is needed to 2HKO Quagsire with Psychic, a very common Pokemon on stall, as well as 2HKO Mega Venusaur. Ice Punch has a chance to 2HKO SpD Hippowdon after SR and Psychic has also a respectable chance to 2HKO PhD Hippo after SR:

• 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Electivire Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 191-226 (45.4 - 53.8%) -- 44.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• 40 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Electivire Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hippowdon: 198-234 (47.1 - 55.7%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Ice Punch also covers other Ground-types and Lati@s, OHKOing both after SR. Cross Chop 2HKOes Chansey after SR, does 40% minimum to Ferrothorn, OHKOes Excadrill on the switch, and 2HKOes SpD Heatran with Thunderbolt after SR. Other than Cresselia i don't think there is anything else relevant that avoids the 2HKO. The Speed EVs outsped Timid Heatran and everything slower.

A fire move would be nice, especially for Ferrothorn, but it can't fit without getting walled by something, and Ferro is easy to wear down and takes a good deal of damage from Cross Chop anyway. However, in practice the ability to OHKO Ferrothorn might be better than 2HKOing Chansey, which is not that hard to wear down with Bisharp support anyway, and Flamethrower still covers Excadrill, while SpD Heatran lacks recovery and is 3HKOed by Thunderbolt.

 

[Salemance]

The harder to wall Electivire set is this:

Electivire @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic
- Ice Punch
- Cross Chop

Going special is needed to 2HKO Quagsire with Psychic, a very common Pokemon on stall, as well as 2HKO Mega Venusaur. Ice Punch has a chance to 2HKO SpD Hippowdon after SR and Psychic has also a respectable chance to 2HKO PhD Hippo after SR:

• 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Electivire Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 191-226 (45.4 - 53.8%) -- 44.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• 40 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Electivire Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hippowdon: 198-234 (47.1 - 55.7%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Ice Punch also covers other Ground-types and Lati@s, OHKOing both after SR. Cross Chop 2HKOes Chansey after SR, does 40% minimum to Ferrothorn, OHKOes Excadrill on the switch, and 2HKOes SpD Heatran with Thunderbolt after SR. Other than Cresselia i don't think there is anything else relevant that avoids the 2HKO.

A fire move would be nice, especially for Ferrothorn, but it can't fit without getting walled by something, and Ferro is easy to wear down and takes a good deal of damage from Cross Chop anyway. However, in practice the ability to OHKO Ferrothorn might be better than 2HKOing Chansey, which is not that hard to wear down with Bisharp support anyway, and Flamethrower still covers Excadrill, while SpD Heatran lacks recovery and is 3HKOed by Thunderbolt.

Except you are unable to 2HKO Chansey without the 96 Attack EVs. As I had said earlier, I just debated a little much with the coverage (frankly I didn't want EQ, but it seemed like a nice idea). And as stated, the moves are all up for customizing to the users preference since he has plenty to work with.

Also your set shows 4 Attack EVs, but your calc uses 40 bud :P

 

[alexwolf]

Except you are unable to 2HKO Chansey without the 96 Attack EVs. As I had said earlier, I just debated a little much with the coverage (frankly I didn't want EQ, but it seemed like a nice idea). And as stated, the moves are all up for customizing to the users preference since he has plenty to work with.

Also your set shows 4 Attack EVs, but your calc uses 40 bud :P

Fixed the set. Also:

• 40 Atk Life Orb Electivire Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 307-361 (43.6 - 51.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  

 

[Explorer]

Greninja has a stab for every move and can change typing. He is not SR weak and it can finish off a team, archeops can't really do that.

Of course I have to theorymon here, but perhaps you could run a Scarf Archeops with Stone Edge > Head Smash, Earthquake, U-turn, and a 4th move of choice (Heat Wave for Scizor?) as a cleaner. It's weak to SR, but so are many other things, and by the time you bring it out, odds are your Lati has Defogged away the Rocks anyway.

 

[bb skarm]

Of course I have to theorymon here, but perhaps you could run a Scarf Archeops with Stone Edge > Head Smash, Earthquake, U-turn, and a 4th move of choice (Heat Wave for Scizor?) as a cleaner. It's weak to SR, but so are many other things, and by the time you bring it out, odds are your Lati has Defogged away the Rocks anyway.

LOL Heat Wave for Scizor cause fuck bullet punch

Also Archeops is already pretty damn fast, putting a scarf will let it outspeed relevant threats like Keldeo but honestly wouldn't you rather just have a Life Orb or Choice Band?

 

[Salemance]

Fixed the set. Also:

• 40 Atk Life Orb Electivire Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 307-361 (43.6 - 51.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  

That's weird, I coulda sworn that's what it said was required just on page one (course I cant read worth a damn today but eh).

Of course I have to theorymon here, but perhaps you could run a Scarf Archeops with Stone Edge > Head Smash, Earthquake, U-turn, and a 4th move of choice (Heat Wave for Scizor?) as a cleaner. It's weak to SR, but so are many other things, and by the time you bring it out, odds are your Lati has Defogged away the Rocks anyway.

Funny enough its able to at least live normal (non CB) Scizor's BP (sort of after SR).

252+ Atk Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 204-242 (70.1 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not so much the Mega Scizor....

44+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 296-350 (101.7 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It cant hope to live that sadly (while Mega Aero can actually if given the EV spread to combat Flying Spam) which makes me sad to say, there isn't a degree of investment like Mega Aero that allows you to only get 3HKO'd by the Talonflame CB B-Bird (which isn't that much of an issue in some regards unless your Head Smashing spam has caused you to lose a lot). Sorta sad he cant fix that issue up but for all the issues, I guess just being able to be 2hKO'd by that damn bird is better than nothing.

 

[bb skarm]

I think Fire/Fairy Delphox would be pretty nifty. It gains a x4 resistance to bug instead of neutral to bug so it can eat U-turn up, it looses its weakness to dark, so not so vulnerable to sucker punch, it keeps a resistance to fighting, and an immunity to dragon moves, however delphox is neutral to steel, but it can handle that with its fire STAB, and a weakness to poison. It doesn't have any fairy stabs though, but i though dazzling gleam could work on it to since it is still a fairy looking creature. I think it changes how Delphox can sweep or punch holes in teams with its psychic typing holding it back.

I'm going to put a complete stop to this as I don't want the thread going in this direction. If you want to suggest a theorymon do so to me, unfixable, or salemance. This thread has the purpose of just discussing the theorymon.

 

[Yayz]

Theorymon! I loved this thread and I was very happy to see its return.

There's been a lot of discussion about Electivire, Jirachi, and Archeops, but very little for Seismitoad beyond "meh, Gastrodon or Quagsire". So I'm gonna take a look at him.

Seismitoad has reasonable 105/75/75 bulk, compared to Gastrodon's 111/68/82 and Quagsire's 95/85/65. If you average the latter two's stats, you get 103/76.5/73.5, which I thought was interesting. The main problem 'toad would have is that either role it plays, either physically or specially defensive, would be outclassed by either 'mon.

Seismitoad has 95 attack and 74 speed, which is at best 10 more than the other two's relevant attacking stat (Gastrodon has 92 special attack, Quag has 85 attack). The best thing he has going for it is that his speed is one more than the other two's combined. Sadly, speed is much less relevant on walls, and it should expect to go after against many relevant threats. It does have higher base speed than Breloom though.

The best thing Seismitoad has going for him is Stealth Rock, which leads to me suggest this set:

Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Recover
- Earthquake
- Knock off / Ice Punch / Drain Punch / other filler

Bulky SR setter / attacker. I'm pretty sure that the EVs and nature are garbage, but you get the idea. It can set rocks, do some damage, heal itself, and gets healed from water attacks. The last slot I didn't know what to put, as poor Seismitoad doesn't learn Waterfall. Knock off is an excellent move, naturally, and Ice Punch is good for hitting the numerous dragon-, ground-, or flying-types in the tier. Drain Punch is decent but largely redundant coverage with Earthquake. It does heal Seismitoad, but Recover does that too.

 

[Master B8s]

Sheer force electivire is one of my favorites cause electivire IMO always had the coverage moves, but just lacked the power to back them up, SF IS exactly the power boost needed as he's just at the speed tier at base 100 so motor drive isn't a lose, while he looses LO recoil

 

[Anduril]

Sheer force electivire is one of my favorites cause electivire IMO always had the coverage moves, but just lacked the power to back them up, SF IS exactly the power boost needed as he's just at the speed tier at base 100 so motor drive isn't a lose, while he looses LO recoil

I like it too, but motor drive is very predictable and base 95 speed isn't that good. He also has terrible 67 Defense which makes him easy to RK by faster threats. If only he had 5 more speed...

 

[pika pal]

I like it too, but motor drive is very predictable and base 95 speed isn't that good. He also has terrible 67 Defense which makes him easy to RK by faster threats. If only he had 5 more speed...

In all fairness, Electivire's job of Wallbreaker means Revenge Killing is the one big concern he has, but since he can check Talonflame, one of the most relevant RK mons, it won't be the hardest to find teammates for him. Admittedly I still don't know if it would push him to OU, but that kind of coverage power would make him a pain for common walls, as we've already seen what Nidoking can do with Base 85 SF offense.

 

[Berry Juice]

Funny enough its able to at least live normal (non CB) Scizor's BP (sort of after SR).

252+ Atk Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 204-242 (70.1 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Nah, you forgot Technician.
252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 306-362 (105.1 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO