Yup, Destiny Bond Prankster is its only real niche because otherwise you would use Sableye anyways (which isn't a super good mon in OU either, but at least you can use the mega evolution slot for something else), but as Karxrida it's extremely predictable and it can easily take advantage of. Also it's extremely frail as many people pointed out and so it will often die before even mega evolving, you can always use Protect of course, but Banette really wants difference moves to be at least decent.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
- Start date
- Status
Minor nitpick, but Absol still takes a shit ton from a boosted Bisharp's Knock Off, the one Dark move you can easily predict.
+2 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Absol: 205-242 (75.6 - 89.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Absol: 222-263 (81.9 - 97%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Absol: 252-297 (92.9 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Absol: 273-322 (100.7 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mega Absol also receives competition from Bisharp, who is stronger, physically bulkier, and has actual switch-in opportunities. Being fast enough to out-prioritize Talonflame is cool and all, a boost to win without SR up and boosting is kinda hard.
Last edited:
Phantom Force is way more practical anyways. Look at this example in which the opponent predicted EVERY Destiny Bond:
Turn1: Banette used Destiny Bond, opponent predicted that and set up.
Turn2: Banette used Phantom Force (NO priority!). If the opponent attacks you now, he dies, if not, he sets up something again.
Turn3: Opponent set-ups again and gets hit by Phantom Force. Thanks to the great attack stat this will hurt alot.
Turn4: Repeat: Destiny Bond, opponent sets up again.
With this strategy you don't need much predition skill to play around your opponent. As long as you don't resist Phantom Force (Mega-Gyarados for example) or have a enough bulk and recovery Banette will bring you down. I really prefer Mega-Banette with max attack invesment since you don't need much bulk because of Destiny Bond.
Of course you have to find a opportunity to mega-evolve first. But this and the other flaws you mentioned prevents him from moving up.
I don't have time to write more but I will expand later if necessary.
You are still basically playing a huge guessing game here and can't beat anything with Recovery like Zard X or things with powerful priority like Mega Pinsir or Talonflame (who'll boost as you hit them with your uninvested neutral attack and only make it harder for you to wall them). You also give free switch-ins for Tyranitar (Sandstorm will wear you down without any recovery) and Chansey (you'll be forced to Taunt the next turn in case it uses Toxic).
M-Banettes notable niches aren't worthwhile in OU honestly. Hell, it's barely passable in the lower tiers for the same exact reasons that has been stated here. It's not even about the argument of taking a mega slot, it's more of the fact that M-Banette is for the most part, a guessing game in a physical form when its down to the wire. As it's already been stated, M-Banette gets worn down so easily, provides plenty of free switch ins for the opponent with little to no opportunity cost, and its positive traits are easily exploitable either due from its own personal limitations or due to the constraints that it fails to break out of in the OU environment. Better for it to be unranked.
I would argue that Blastoise is fine where it is. With coverage to hit just about everything in the tier, fantastic bulk and basically triple stab (due to mega launcher boosting his attacks chosen (Dpulse/DarkPulse/AuraSphere + whatever water move you choose), blastoise is incredibly hard to switch in to. More importantly, his ability as a defensive spinner to switch into attacks as opposed to starmie wanting to be in to use reflect type before taking attacks can be very helpful. His only real flaw on a balance/stall team is that lack of recovery, but he is almost certainly a guaranteed kill if played semi-decently. When played well, he can tear opposing teams apart with burn spreading, hazard removal and enormous pressure.
He isn't really an offensive team's choice but on balance, stall and some other slower teams, he is a great option.
He isn't really an offensive team's choice but on balance, stall and some other slower teams, he is a great option.
Mega Mawile is now dead, so it needs to be removed from the list.
Too bad it'll be a long time until Mawile falls to NU.
Too bad it'll be a long time until Mawile falls to NU.
Arcanine too I suppose, as it was only ranked for being the only reliable Mawile counter.
Lol, I was literally just about to post about this, but I agree with the above two posts. Pretty much the only reason that Arcanine and Weezing even got ranked was because they were solid answers to Mega Mawile. Granted, they might be able to do other helpful stuff, but for the most part I see little reason to use them over a bunch of other physically defensive Pokemon. Moltres sort falls under the same category since beating Mega Mawile was a huge reason as to why it was viable, but I think it'd be okay to keep it in D Rank since it does check a number of other important things such as Charizard Y and Landorus, one or more of which other defensive Fire-types will lose to. I don't feel too strongly about keeping it, but I really do think Arcanine and Weezing should drop off entirely.
Arcanine and Weezing were only added for their ability to counter/hard check Mega Mawile. And since that's gone, there's no real reason to use them on an OU team (not that they were even good in the first place). Moltres also lost its biggest niche in countering Mawile. Sure it can do other things, but it just doesn't deal with enough to justify a team slot imo.
I'm slow so people beat me to this, but they didn't use sprites~
Why do you keep saying uninvested? I am talking about a max attack Mega-Banette, which is imo way better than the normal one.
One of my friends uses a Mega-Banette and I think this is a pretty good set:
Mega-Banette
#########
move 1: Phantom Force
move 2: Destiny Bond
move 3: Will-O-Wisp
move 4: Taunt/Protect
ability: Frisk
item: Banettite
nature: brave
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
#########
move 1: Phantom Force
move 2: Destiny Bond
move 3: Will-O-Wisp
move 4: Taunt/Protect
ability: Frisk
item: Banettite
nature: brave
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
The only 2 things that makes different from Sableye is Destiny Bond and its really high attack stat. If you play it uninvested in attack, why even bother using Banette? Phantom Force does really heavy damage if you don't resist it and that shouldn't be underestimated. I think a "128 HP / 252 Atk / 132 Spe" spread with adamant nature would be cool too because you can outspeed Scizor with it, but whatever.
I think we shouldn't talk too much about Banette since its flaws, which are all well known and already mentioned, are pretty clear so it won't move up anytime soon. But Prankster Destiny Bond and its heavily underestimated attack-stat gives him a niche for D-rank.
So much about Mega-Banette, let's move on.
I will just say nothing and agree with Weezing, Arcanine and Moltres being removed. Without Mawile there should be no mention of them.
Charizard-Y for A:
He has gotten in A+ because of its defensive set which was made to counter Mega-Mawile. Now that she is gone CharX or Venu will be the better option in stall teams. Its defensive set lost its nice niche, therefore back to A.
Imo way too soon for this, give it least a week or so.
Its still an incredibily powerful mega that can get a kill as long as no lati@s and chansey, which you can kill with pursuit use. and is one of stalls best answers to mew.
Also with Mawile gone heatran and arcanine should be less common also helping zard Y.
It still counters all the other stuff it did before, landorous, scizor, etc...
Yeah right, CharY is so shit besides that defensive set that could check mawile if it doesn't just take 50% on SR. Absolute garbage indeed, it has no offensive presence and no purpose whatsoever besides that defensive set.
(The irony, can you smell it?)
I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM
formerly Smog Frog
whats keeping 
from S rank? its one of the best, if not the best, suicide lead for HO, its one of the best scarfers in the game, its band set crushes everything not named slowbro, and its a great subSD user. its STABs are such great coverage that it has room to run HP ice to lure landorus-t and gliscor and not be any less effective in games that don't have these two. and its counters are limited to....phys def mew, slowbro, and doublade? its ridiculous. its scarf set revenges a lot of boosting threats(gyarados, tyranitar, zard x,) and not to mention one of its best checks in mawile has left the tier. it also has some nice 92/90/90 bulk, so its quite bulky for an offensive mon. it has access to priority(albeit its kinda bad), and it can run a good double dance set which is quite a pain for most teams, a scary subSD+salac berry to ensure sweeps and not be fucked over by status/priority, and these kinds of sets are once again possible due to its great coverage with STABs alone. CB terrakion is a MONSTROUS wall breaker, essentially getting a kill every time it comes in. it can 2hko some frailer offensive resists(252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 159-187 (49.8 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO)just to showcase its hilarious offensive potency. and its great coverage permits it to run moves to get by its counters that it isn't strong enough to beat with its STABs alone(x-scissor, iron head, even quick attack are options for the last slot, analysis even has toxic slashed iirc)its just ridiculously good. of course, i don't mind if it stays A+, but i am honestly wondering whats keeping it from S.
from S rank? its one of the best, if not the best, suicide lead for HO, its one of the best scarfers in the game, its band set crushes everything not named slowbro, and its a great subSD user. its STABs are such great coverage that it has room to run HP ice to lure landorus-t and gliscor and not be any less effective in games that don't have these two. and its counters are limited to....phys def mew, slowbro, and doublade? its ridiculous. its scarf set revenges a lot of boosting threats(gyarados, tyranitar, zard x,) and not to mention one of its best checks in mawile has left the tier. it also has some nice 92/90/90 bulk, so its quite bulky for an offensive mon. it has access to priority(albeit its kinda bad), and it can run a good double dance set which is quite a pain for most teams, a scary subSD+salac berry to ensure sweeps and not be fucked over by status/priority, and these kinds of sets are once again possible due to its great coverage with STABs alone. CB terrakion is a MONSTROUS wall breaker, essentially getting a kill every time it comes in. it can 2hko some frailer offensive resists(252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 159-187 (49.8 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO)just to showcase its hilarious offensive potency. and its great coverage permits it to run moves to get by its counters that it isn't strong enough to beat with its STABs alone(x-scissor, iron head, even quick attack are options for the last slot, analysis even has toxic slashed iirc)its just ridiculously good. of course, i don't mind if it stays A+, but i am honestly wondering whats keeping it from S.
Terrakion is amazing. The counters you listed all die to either x scissor (does anyone else use it? Although in slowbro's case it only really hurts it when it switches in on an x scissor on the band set.) or earthquake. Then there is the two super powerful STABs of sacred sword/CC and stone miss which has decent synergy with each other. So what is keeping it from S rank? Simply the fact it is weak to some common priority moves which is a major downfall in this current metagame. While Terrakion is a powerful threat the weakness to priority moves such as aqua jet, bullet punch and mach punch play a major part in keeping this hulking horse beast thingy from rising to S rank.whats keeping
A small nitpick: in the calc with lando terrakion needs to be minus 1 unless you are suggesting people send out terrakion against lando.
I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM
formerly Smog Frog
the calc w/ lando was lando-i(just to showcase hilarious power) and terrak isn't actually weak to much priority(aqua jet, bullet punch, mach punch) and users of these priority get 2hko or ohko by terrakion. but is there anything else keeping it from S?
Terrakion is kind of like Mega Medicham, it just comes in on something that doesn't have strong priority or can't out speed it and proceed to deal huge damage and then switch out except Terrakion has a lot of sets because it can hold items, safer STABs which gets amazing coverage, nice bulk and better speed tier. I wouldn't mind Terrakion in S at all though A+ is fine as well.
I kinda feel like YZard should drop back to A too, not because one of the things the bulky wisp set beats got banned (I honestly think that's a pretty bad argument regarless of which Pokemon it is apllied to : the fact a Pokemon did well against another Pokemon that got banned does not diminish its ability to deal with all the other stuff it deals with), but rather because of Latias and Latios. With Mawilite banned, the Lati twins are better than ever, in fact, the only thing stopping me from nominating them for S rank right now is the existence of Pursuit trappers, which mere presence on the opposing team is really though for the Lati user to play around. Pretty much every offensive team now runs Latias or Latios, which really limits YZard's efficiency against said teams which have a reliable swicthin to it (especially if they run Roost which is becoming more popular on Latis from what I've seen). This leaves YZard to be easily forced out without even getting a KO, which it really dislikes given it weakness to rocks and a couple common types. YZard, now more than ever, needs pursuit support to be at its most effective, and is not as good as a standalone Pokemon as it used to be.
I think we need a V3, the metagame will change a bit now that mawile is banned and it would be cool to clean the ranking a bit, most of the C/D mons are garbage and not even worth playing except for the reason of being a bit dumb. a Cleaned-up version and a restart of the thread would give some fresh air imo. We can wait for the metagame to stabilize a bit before that though.
Did you even read my post?
CharY rised to A+ rank BECAUSE of the defensive set. With no need of this set anymore it can go back to A.
I NEVER questioned its ability to wallbreak or the offensive pressure it puts on teams.
This might be a little off rail but can anyone clarify why Jellicent isn't even D Rank viability? I'm not claiming it's good or anything but I noticed it wasn't blacklisted so I thought I'd mention it as a possible D Rank addition. There are plenty of reasons for its fall from grace relative to last Gen I know but at the same time if garbage like Tornadus-I can carve up enough of a niche to be C-, there should be discussion of Jellicent as a niche but otherwise outclassed bulky water type (unique typing and access to Will o wisp to differentiate itself from other bulky water types, Taunt and reliable recovery to differentiate itself from Rotom-W, and overall it's stats are decent enough and I suppose Water Absorb is chill too.)
I see your point but I feel like D rank is just saturated with general garbage that if someone really wanted to use they would have enough of an understanding to use it while knowing the risks/limitations. I don't see the point of adding stuff in D when 1. a whole bunch of lower tier stuff fits the criteria of D and 2. a handful of the mid to lower ranks need a lot of general cleaning up to do and adding more stuff would just add more pointless discussion about garbage or outclassed stuff. I rather just focus on more important discussion rather than discuss stuff that just sucks.
- Status