np: XY UU Stage 2 - Light Em Up

[Pinkin Lark]

So, after playing a bit with a Hawlucha team in UU (mind you, I'm terrible and made the team in 5 minutes), all I can say is: It's hard to set up safely. You essentially need two turns to fully set up: one for the Swords Dance, and one for the Unburden(unless you are using something your opponent can trigger(Red Card/Sitrus/Lum). Combine that with the number of Elec/Flying/Fairy/Ice users in the tier, and it gets rather spooky.

Mind you, he does wreck house if he can get going fully. But he still needs to beware 2HKOs that can put a hurt on him.

Outside of that, he can still do some respectible damage, or provide a good U-turn if you aren't running the SD/Sky Attack/Acro/HJK set.

 

[Patrick1088]

A Random Scrub I've been combining it with a Slow U-Turn from Mega Amphy to force the easy switches and nab the boost. Here's a Typical order...

Hawlucha vs. Slowbro
1. Hawlucha switches out to Mega Amphy, Slowbro either attacks with Scald/Psyshock. Fearing the tbolt, bro switches out to Blissey.
2. Blissey tanks the slow volt-Switch to bring in Hawlucha safely. Fearing the HJK, it switches to Slowbro when Hawlucha gets to +2.
3. Hawlucha launches the +2 Sky Attack + Power Herb combo
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Sky Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 267-315 (67.7 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4. Slowbro attacks with either Psyshock/Scald (burn hax?)
0 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 218-260 (72.9 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 126-148 (42.1 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
5. Hawlucha finishes him off
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 211-249 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Even if Hawlucha is burned...
+2 252+ Atk burned Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 105-124 (26.6 - 31.4%) -- 26.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
It's a guaranteed OHKO and your opponent just lost the physical wall while you are mostly intact...

 

[SketchUp]

Was Hawlucha UU a few months ago? If yes, why was he banned to BL and why is he back to UU now?

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Was Hawlucha UU a few months ago? If yes, why was he banned to BL and why is he back to UU now?

b& because stronk (and fast)
not b& to double check how stronk (and fast) it still is

 

[Schpoonman]

He was banned to BL because he was found to be broken. He's back to UU because we're testing all broken Pokemon.

 

[canasian]

Lord Bays is leaving out the "potentially" part of that statement; when the tier began the tier leader decided that it'd be better to be liberal with bans and re-introduce all the dangerous Pokemon to be tested in a vacuum, rather than testing all the Pokemon in a setting full of equally broken things where some 'mons may end up sticking around way too long.

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Personally I think it's led to a lot of things that aren't really too overpowering for the tier stuck in purgatory like Staraptor and Klefki but it's undeniably gone better than OU's system which has left the tier in a pretty horrendous position almost a year after its beginning

 

[KM]

[staraptor was already retested and found to be broken]

[same goes for klefki]

[there will be at least one more retest on everything contentious afterwards]

 

[canasian]

All three of those points together are what I mean by "purgatory" (particularly Klefki which was voted UU by a majority but the strict constraints of the first round testing kept it BL; Staraptor's ban I understand had more support but it definitely had more justification to stay in UU than things like Manaphy or Crawdaunt that were obviously broken).

 

[Machi]

All three of those points together are what I mean by "purgatory" (particularly Klefki which was voted UU by a majority but the strict constraints of the first round testing kept it BL; Staraptor's ban I understand had more support but it definitely had more justification to stay in UU than things like Manaphy or Crawdaunt that were obviously broken).

As mentioned the subsequent testings will likely be different since the first round is more about speed, especially with ORAS around the corner to change certain statistics or what not. That being the case the contentious ones are likely to have a second shot once ORAS has been released. That said this has already been discussed earlier anyways so no point bringing it up and just focus on finishing this first cycle through.

At the very least I don't agree that this system will leave them up to purgatory as long as other suspect testings as cycles are far less arbitrary than the old "when do you feel the metagame has changed" that plagued the previous UU gen suspect testing (it took forever to reach that sort of consensus and left many things in purgatory be it for suspect or BL).

 

[Metal Sonic]

Now I see the ladder using trash like 'Doublade' or 'Rotom-Normal' just to deal with Hawlucha! Lol!!

The over centralizing luchador is making good players use NU pokemon now!

 

[TM13IceBeam]

considering there's quite a bunch of stuff that will eventually be retested i think its best that we remain patient for the time being, especially when after the drops we won't really have a lot of things to test anymore (and the rest outside of z-god are pretty blatantly ridiculous anw)

Patrick1088 : slowbro doesn't necessarily have to be lost if he manages to burn lucha, since the option of sacrificing a pokemon for free regenerator hp exists. of course, this is something that is still inherently disadvantageous to the slowbro user, especially if you consider that sky attack can fuck slowbro either way with a crit or a flinch (both of which are quite likely to happen too).

 

[RowDog]

1. Metal Sonic Doublade is not bad and does quite well in this tier. I remember in the Dark Horse thread a person rose to third on the ladder with it. Not to mention it can cause a world of pain for quite a few teams, as it threatens a good portion of the tier.
2. Patrick1088 regarding this calc: 0 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 218-260 (72.9 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, that is guaranteed with Rocky Helmet damage and SR, on a high roll just with Rocky Helmet.

Now personally so far I think you guys are overselling Hawlucha a little bit. I have no doubt that it is a great Pokemon, and am still leaning towards calling it BL (even though the retest is still young), there are still quite a few ways of dealing with it.

 

[Patrick1088]

Now I see the ladder using trash like 'Doublade' or 'Rotom-Normal' just to deal with Hawlucha! Lol!!

The over centralizing luchador is making good players use NU pokemon now!

I wouldn't say Doublade is trash like Rotom-N. Doublade does have the ability to set up on Florges/Blissey.

But, there is a big influx of non viable pokes that are popping up. I wished I saved the replays of some I saw :-(

RowDog That would be very true if you factor RH. Lefties is more common though. Last month's 1630 moveset stats had lefties at 65% while Rocky Helmet just under 22%. So, it's like 1 out of every 4 battles with Slowbro will have RH. RH Bro helped beat down Raptor a little harder and it definitely stuck around.

 

[umbarsc]

If you want Slowbro to more reliably counter Hawlucha, you could run Psychic instead.

0 SpA Slowbro Psychic vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 284-336 (94.9 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Sucks if you're running CM set, but not too bad for support sets.

 

[Pinkin Lark]

0 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 218-260 (72.9 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

There's a small problem with your calc on this, as RowDog somewhat pointed out. If rocks are up on the field, using your strat of Amphy's Volt Switch, you are going to get rocks damage twice, doing ~24%. That GREATLY boosts Slowbro's chance to OHKO, even without Rocky Helmet.

 

[Enki]

Maybe rotom and doublade are the best counter... IT IS BROKEN!11!
I cant really see Hawlucha in this tier. Unburden ability with a stabbed coverage like Fight/Flying (and a free 140 bp shot in case of Sky attack) is too much considering the access to Sword Dance. It hasn t a good bulk yeah, but its typing allows it to setup on many common offensive theats of the UU tier, such as Choice Scarf Hydreigon Dpulse/Dmeteor-2 or CBHeracross Knock Off/Megahorn. After +2 is almost unstoppable, the things that comes close to the idea of check are Slowbro or Mega Ampharos, not even a switch in, while to find a counter you have to go digging through the RU/NU tier (Doublade and Rotom-A). It is not only a great stallbreaker but also a late game cleaner, in fact it doesn t need any speed investment to exceed all common Scarfter thanks to it s trait, SubSitrus set could also be funny to avoid common status inducer.
I really think it deserves to stay in BL tho, it s capacity to sweep is clearly broken

 

[Ununhexium]

I'm trying to prove Hawlucha UU (as I always), but without a bit more play testing, I really can't. Like everything, after a Swords Dance, it is incredibly hard to switch into, making it near impossible to "counter" (except by things like Doublade which is actually better than people give it credit for). I don't think it would be as broken, however, if it had less powerful moves. When you have high-powered Fighting- and Flying-type moves (which in themselves have excellent coverage) hitting from 110 power (Acrobatics) 130 power (HJK) and 140 power (Sky Attack, mind one time) its extremely hard to justify it staying in UU. Also, thanks to Unburden and a naturally high Speed, it can afford to run an Adamant nature to dela more damage. Thank Christ that Flying Gem isn't a thing.

I'll write a more comprehensive post sometime else.

 

[Jack Boots]

Don't rule out Mega Aggron too fast. I've been running protect on mine, and it's been working out really well. On the relaxed natured spdef set (252hp/4def/252spdef) hawlucha needs to set up at least 2 SD's to be able to OHKO it with HKJ. If Aggron is weakened, and the opposing player thinks it can take it out with a HJK, go for a protect (noone expects this) and, especially with the sublucha's, it either dies or nearly dies. If it lives, it creates mind games (especially if you run another ghost type on your squad). To people arguing protect is inferior on M-Aggron, I personally use it with toxic, rocks, and either metal burst/heavy slam, and it does what it has to do quite well. Some will miss EQ as coverage, but in the lucha meta, it does well enough to not being forced to run Doublade (bec it's just totally underwhelming in UU), and it's a nifty lure as long as people don't expect it.

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 240-283 (69.7 - 82.2%)

Heavy slam in return does decent damage: 0 Atk Mega Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 220-259 (73.5 - 86.6%)|

You could also run metal burst to guarantee a kill after you've been hit.

 

[Ununhexium]

Your calc has 4+ def and you directly state +sdef in the post. Anyways, here is a relevant calc

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 225-265 (65.4 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Its still damn impressive that it 2HKOes it as no unboosted attack from anything 2HKOes Aggron iirc. You can even run an incredibly gimmicky Mold Breaker set to deal more damage :P

+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Mega Aggron: 300-354 (87.2 - 102.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Don't do it though

 

[Jaguar360]

This doesn't have to do with Hawlucha in particular, but I am really excited about September's tier shift.
Diancie will obviously drop, and I think it will fit decently in the tier. It will be the best possible answer to Honchkrow (unless it starts running Steel Wing, which it doesn't have much room for) and also deals with Fire types in general (though it fears certain coverage moves like Energy Ball on Mix/SpecialTini and Chandelure and EQ on Darm) as well as Crobat and Mega Absol without Iron Tail (used for Florges). However, Diancie's many weaknesses and lack of recovery will probably discourage it from seeing much use since most Pokemon in the tier have a common way to hurt it and things like Jirachi, Aggron, Blastoise and Swampert are great answers to it that are common in the tier. Even Hydreigon is dangerous to it because of Earth Power, Surf and Iron Tail. I think its offensive Rock Polish LO set will honestly be its best bet in the tier, as long as Bullet Punch Metagross and Lucario don't get in its way.

Togekiss looks like it will drop along with it, discouraging Dragon/Ground coverage and bringing another solid answer to Hydreigon and, to an extent, Mega Blastoise if specially defensive. Scolipede will also qualify for a retest if its usage stays where it is.

As for Pokemon rising, Slowbro, Heracross and Raikou seem to be the most likely candidates and Mew, Starmie, Sableye and Amoonguss have a really good chance as well. With Slowbro gone, Alomomola will likely replace it as the physical Water wall of the tier (and hopefully get that thing out of RU!), though it won't be able to fully replace it since it has little offensive presence and the only role they share is as a physically bulky Water wall. Sableye and Starmie aren't super-common in July's OU stats, but they have been seeing a lot of usage in OU since Aegislash's ban as a spinblocker and spinner so they could rise.

Sorry if I end up contributing to a negative discussion. I just can't wait to speculate.

 

[Machi]

This doesn't have to do with Hawlucha in particular, but I am really excited about September's tier shift.
Diancie will obviously drop, and I think it will fit decently in the tier. It will be the best possible answer to Honchkrow (unless it starts running Steel Wing, which it doesn't have much room for) and also deals with Fire types in general (though it fears certain coverage moves like Energy Ball on Mix/SpecialTini and Chandelure and EQ on Darm) as well as Crobat and Mega Absol without Iron Tail (used for Florges). However, Diancie's many weaknesses and lack of recovery will probably discourage it from seeing much use since most Pokemon in the tier have a common way to hurt it and things like Jirachi, Aggron, Blastoise and Swampert are great answers to it that are common in the tier. Even Hydreigon is dangerous to it because of Earth Power, Surf and Iron Tail. I think its offensive Rock Polish LO set will honestly be its best bet in the tier, as long as Bullet Punch Metagross and Lucario don't get in its way.

Togekiss looks like it will drop along with it, discouraging Dragon/Ground coverage and bringing another solid answer to Hydreigon and, to an extent, Mega Blastoise if specially defensive. Scolipede will also qualify for a retest if its usage stays where it is.

As for Pokemon rising, Slowbro, Heracross and Raikou seem to be the most likely candidates and Mew, Starmie, Sableye and Amoonguss have a really good chance as well. With Slowbro gone, Alomomola will likely replace it as the physical Water wall of the tier (and hopefully get that thing out of RU!), though it won't be able to fully replace it since it has little offensive presence and the only role they share is as a physically bulky Water wall. Sableye and Starmie aren't super-common in July's OU stats, but they have been seeing a lot of usage in OU since Aegislash's ban as a spinblocker and spinner so they could rise.

Sorry if I end up contributing to a negative discussion. I just can't wait to speculate.

I am not sure if she will actually be UU since she only has 2 months worth of statistics, being released in July, and usage stats rely on 3 months of weighted usage.

 

[canasian]

I think it was said awhile ago that Diancie will drop in September if it's usage doesn't put it in OU range (also, the June stats count for barely anything because of how monthly stats get weighted so it's only like a possible 4% weighting handicap, not much to worry about when it was under 2% usage in July iirc)

 

[Jack Boots]

Your calc has 4+ def and you directly state +sdef in the post. Anyways, here is a relevant calc

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 225-265 (65.4 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Its still damn impressive that it 2HKOes it as no unboosted attack from anything 2HKOes Aggron iirc. You can even run an incredibly gimmicky Mold Breaker set to deal more damage :P

+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Mega Aggron: 300-354 (87.2 - 102.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Don't do it though

I clearly say: 'on the relaxed nature spdef set', please elaborate as to where I stated +spdef? instead of just taking this out and missing whatever else was in there.

 

[Ununhexium]

My mistake. I still think its more important to use relevant spreads, however.

 

[FlareBlitz]

I've used Hawlucha pretty extensively, and I'm on the fence about its brokenness.

On the one hand, I have had Hawlucha used against me for at least 70% of the 50+ games I played, and I don't think it's managed to sweep me yet. And I didn't play against shitty players. The thing is, bulky offense can build with hard counters to Hawlucha on your team without even trying (i.e. Swampert, Slowbro, Aroma, Amphy), and unless you're playing straight HO you'll have at least one Pokemon that can take a hit and either ohko back or phaze / status it. And if you are playing HO, literally any attack besides a ground move will leave Hawlucha at ko range of common priority. It doesn't restrict teambuilding at all, and if you're forcing yourself to use things like Doublade (not that Doublade is bad, mind) you really don't need to.

On the other hand, Hawlucha has been a valuable part of my team in almost every game. It has plenty of checks and counters, but after a moderate amount of residual damage it is capable of blowing past all of them due to the incredible coverage gained by Fighting / Flying. If you are a good offensive player and use it as a late-game sweeper in an offensive core (I paired it with Haxorus for the lulz), it sweeps scarily consistently. But then again, the same could honestly be said for Lucario, or Sharpedo, or what-have-you.

I am currently leaning towards "not broken" but I can definitely sympathize with the opposite perspective.