Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

[Poek]

Crawdaunt should go back to B- :
This thing deals with stall quite nicely, 2hkoing skarmory with crabhammer and 2hkoing physically defensive mega venusaur after rocks with crunch, it deals with mew and victini even if it gets burned and it's a nice tool against sand offense, as this thing does not need a choice band to actually ohko excadrill with aqua jet. I know it's very frail and weak to the omnipresent priority in the form of brave bird, mach punch and shit but this thing is way better than some C+ mons. It's a wallbreaker that doesn't take a mega slot and can actually do "something" vs offense with aqua jet, altho it doesnt get too many switchins, aqua jet adaptability boosted is nothing to laugh at.

 

[Prinz]

DoABarrelRoll

+1 252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 332-392 (86.2 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (which almost OHKOs after Stealth Rock) so Heatran isn't a really good counter for Gardevoir though I agree that it has really poor physical defense which makes it frail and it isn't very fast to beat very helpful against ho teams.

 

[horyzhnz]

been playing around with some cool stuff post-ban, now making what I hope isn't a stupid post:

supporting Staraptor to B, or even B+. The banning of Aegislash really benefited Staraptor since it resisted everything the bird could throw at it, and now it really feels good to just click Brave Bird and 2HKO almost everything in the tier. Nothing can really switch into it bar Skarmory, and the Final Gambit variants can chunk it or even kill it through Sturdy if it's not at near-full HP. Sure it has to be either scarfed or banded to really stand out, but being locked into either one of its STABs when there are no opposing Ghost-types for Double-Edge isn't actually that bad, denting anything it doesn't outright OHKO for a teammate to finish up the job. Banded Staraptor tears chunks in almost anything and if it gets switched into something it can force out, the opponent usually has to sac something to bring in a faster mon, and Scarfed Staraptor usually just OHKOs whatever offensive checks the Banded set has. It doesn't really require much team support due to how it's supposed to be used (tailwind + banded raptor = a really bad time), but it does get worn down very quickly due to recoil, SR weakness, Rocky Helmet, Ferrothorn's Iron Barbs, etc, and it is extremely frail, so I don't really see it moving up anywhere past the B rank.

Doublade really should be up higher; serving as an excellent check to prominent Pokemon in the post-Aegislash metagame such as M-Gardevoir, M-Heracross, M-Pinsir, M-Medicham, Terrakion, Breloom if something else is asleep, even the occasional Latis lacking HP Fire, and so many more Pokemon in the lower ranks is definitely not something to be overlooked or dismissed as a small niche. gyro ball / shadow claw actually hurts more than you'd think, even off an uninvested base 110 Attack, so it isn't exactly a sitting duck either. admittedly it can't do too much to some Pokemon like M-Scizor, Gliscor, or Gyarados, but its ability to neatly halt the sweeps of many top-tier threats more than warrants something higher than a D-rank, where things almost unused such as Roserade and even Sharpedo for crying out loud dwell. At least a C+ in my opinion; "reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective" really fits Doublade well: checks many dangerous top-tier threats, but cannot handle most special attacks.

on another note, sometimes I'm not sure why Absol is in B-. It has a great Speed tier, high offensive stats, a brilliant movepool, and looks cool (imo) to boot, but it's pretty frail, doesn't fare too well against many of the top threats in OU, and doesn't have enough moveslots to cover everything it needs to. As said by a user above, no matter what set it runs it will get stopped cold by Azumarill, Clefable, and most Fairy-types. Sometimes I feel like it's dead weight against things such as M-Venusaur, Azumarill, and Gyarados, but there are times when it really shines, especially against offense or as a cleaner / revenge killer. Feels like it should be in both B and C+ at times, and it feels very matchup-reliant; even after reading what others have said, still on the fence about this.

 

[Kyuzeth]

This is why Mega Gardy should stay A. (not to mention she's very frail on the physical side, doesn't do great against offense due to her middling Speed stat and has horrible 4MSS)

Agreeing with Cofagrigus for D. Cofagrigus can stop Sand Rush/Dragon Dance abusers since it has phenomenal physical bulk and access to Trick Room and Will-o-Wisp. It can beat both Excadrill and Starmie (although Mega Blastoise wins against it 1-on-1), Lati@s and even Zapdos if it runs Nasty Plot. However, it has no reliable recovery moves (Pain Split is bad) and if it goes for RestTalk, it mostly becomes a sitting duck, especially against Zard X and powerful special attackers like Keldeo and CM Landorus.

Mega Gardevoir doesn't have 'horrible 4MSS'. It's quite the contrary; the support move it packs makes it a really unpredictable Pokémon, not to mention it shits all over defensive Heatran in its regular form, since it Traces Flash Fire and Heatran can't do a goddamn thing to it while Gardevoir either whittles its HP, completely stops it with Taunt or uses CM to set up on it. Really, stating Mega Gardevoir has 4MSS is just absurd.

For the record:
+1 252+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 364-430 (94.5 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Heatran ain't stopping Mega Gardevoir anytime soon.

 

[Stef0w]

Please for god's sake, not Landorus-T for A+.

It's slow, has no recovery, is utterly crippled by knock off (losing scarf/leftovers), and it's just not that bulky.

Gliscor is faster, has a better ability, the best recovery move in the game, and is immune to status.

PLEASE NO LANDORUS-T FOR A+.

 

[LZH14]

This is why Mega Gardy should stay A. (not to mention she's very frail on the physical side, doesn't do great against offense due to her middling Speed stat and has horrible 4MSS)

Agreeing with Cofagrigus for D. Cofagrigus can stop Sand Rush/Dragon Dance abusers since it has phenomenal physical bulk and access to Trick Room and Will-o-Wisp. It can beat both Excadrill and Starmie (although Mega Blastoise wins against it 1-on-1), Lati@s and even Zapdos if it runs Nasty Plot. However, it has no reliable recovery moves (Pain Split is bad) and if it goes for RestTalk, it mostly becomes a sitting duck, especially against Zard X and powerful special attackers like Keldeo and CM Landorus.

focus blast 2hkos sp def heatran, or you can just start boosting since heatran can't hit a gardevoir for shit
also what 4mss? the only coverage a mega gardevoir carries is hyper voice, psyshock, focus blast, and one filler move (WoW, taunt, CM, depending on who you want to screw over)

 

[Jirachee]

gonna assist my buddy boudouche and tell you why Hippowdon needs to be lower on this list.

Hippo's not a bad Pokemon but it faces a lot of competition as a Ground type Pokemon, because there are any excellent Ground types in the tier. On Stall teams, Gliscor and Quagsire are both probably better choices; Gliscor's ability to check Landorus is a godsend to those teams. Gliscor also helps fighting other Stalls which is a great advantage considering a lot of Stall battles tend to turn into 400 turns shitfests which I'm sure no one wants to play. Not to mention the Fighting resist which is becoming more and more important with the increased viability of those. Quagsire on Stall should require no fancy explanation, but Unaware is really a killer in a gen where most top threats are setup mons. Hippo is kind of meh on full stalls anyway this gen so you shouldn't use it. On offense teams, Hippowdon kills all your momentum which is no good, making other Grounds like Landorus-T, Garchomp, and Landorus-I much more appropriate for those teams. So that leaves Balance teams for Hippo, which is respectable considering they are quite common, but even then a lot of the time you could consider pretty much any other Ground over it.

Hippowdon's main niches are checking Thundurus and bringing Sand. The first one is pretty uncommon so it's a great perk, however the second is offset by the fact that Tyranitar does it too, and a lot of the time it will do it better thanks to better offensive presence. Hippo will also often run Sand Force because Sand hurts its team more than it helps (also Mega Tyranitar checking shenanigans.) I believe that these perks are compounded by one terrible flaw: Hippowdon is absolutely worthless against Stall teams. It has very little offensive presence and is extremely prone to status which makes it very easy for common Stall Pokemon to deal with it. One of the most important things for your team when facing Stall is Stealth Rock, which Hippowdon always has, however, it is a terrible user of it. The two most common Stall Defoggers, Mandibuzz and especially Skarmory, will switch into it extremely easily and will be able to blow the hazards away without much trouble. This puts the Hippowdon user at a major disadvantage against those teams, and forces him into bringing a strong stall killer, while usually SR + teamwork is enough to deal with it. Even against Balance and Offensive teams, Hippo has a hard time keeping the rocks up, because the Lati twins will threaten it with Draco Meteor for a 2HKO (especially Latios) creating a mind game which is dangerous for the hippo player. The only hazard removers it does well against are Zapdos and Excadrill, the first which is not as common as the others.

I think that the heavy competition Hippowdon faces combined with its flaws are enough to warrant a drop to A- or B+ rank.

 

[theV8man]

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 390-460 (55.3 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 367-433 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Crawdaunt is hitting harder than M-Mawile ever did... without a CB. It's coverage is a complete pain for everything on offense except Azumarill. It's combination of power/Knock off makes it so pretty much nothing except for Chesnaught can switch in on stall. And it has the most powerful Aqua Jet in the game. You can run CB, Sub/DD, SD, and this is hands down the best sweeper on Trick Room now that Mawile is gone. It's plagued by being frail, slow, and weak to priority, but its raw power/priority makes up for this imo and it should get out of the C ranks. Crawdaunt => B-

 

[Celticpride]

Mega Heracross A to A+: With Mega Mawile gone, Mega Heracross just got better. Mawile was one of the better switch-ins to Mega Hera on offensive teams. Intimidate, combined with quad resisting one STAB and resisting a coverage move, made Mawile one of the better switch-ins to Mega Hera. Also, if Mega Mawile leaving means Pokemon like Arcanine and Weezing are leaving, the only benefits Mega Heracross. Arcanine is just a pain in the butt for Mega Hera, Intimidate and burns can be tough/annoying to deal with. Weezing, or any bulky Poison, give Mega Hera headaches because they resist both of his STAB attacks. Mega Hera looks to benefit in this new meta.

Edit: Something I was thinking about after, Sub Mega Mawile eventually wins against Mega Heracross because his sub-breaking moves are ineffective, and CC drops make him Sucker Punch bait at some point.

Mega Gardevoir A to A+: For the reasons stated above. Gardy has no issues with Heatran either, because:

232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 224-264 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 220-260 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 296-352 (76.6 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 294-348 (76.1 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Praying on Focus Blasts or using HP Ground isn't ideal, but useable if you have a Heatran problem. Heatran also loses to Earthquake, which GF gives to everything. Azumarill is walled by Mega Venusaur, that's not a reason to drop it to A or A-. Gardy should move up.

Mega Manectric B to B+ (or A-): Mega Manectric is very good in the current meta. It checks or revenges a whole list of top meta game threats, including Landorus (both forms), Thundurus, Greninja, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Scizor (both forms) and a few others. It's probably the top Volt Switcher in OU at this point, and it is one of the few Electric type who has access to Flamethrower and Overheat, allowing it to beat things like Ferrothorn more easily. It's fantastic against offense, and can put it work against stall teams as well by performing great against Skarmory, Ferrothorn and Gliscor. Chansey isn't even an issue if you predict the switch, Volt Switch, and send in a Fighting type. Granted, Manectric doesn't have overwhelming power, but it's just enough to be an annoyance and it can even clean if you snag a Lightning rod boost and get to +1.

Also, alexwolf are the last few pages of the last thread still going to be looked at or should we restate the arguments in this new thread?

 

[Rimsakov]

Mega Charizard-Y A+ to A: The reason Zard Y was moved to A+ was because of its offensive wallbreaking set and its defensive set. Since its defensive set's sole purpose was to deal with mega mawile, that set is useless now(well, not useless, but much much less useful) and Zard Y's only role now is as a wallbreaker. That set was considered an A threat before the discovery of the defensive set and I would argue that it became worse after the ban. Checks to Zard Y such as terrakion, latis and tyranitar are going to likely rise in usage now that mawile is gone. Thus, Zard Y has too many checks and needs too much support to be considered an A+ threat.

 

[WebBowser]

AM145 FYI on Suicune, pressure only reduces the PP of moves targeting it, so wish and heal bell will not drop any faster. That being said, crocune is still ridiculous against stall.

 

[MrCookiepants]

DoABarrelRoll

+1 252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 332-392 (86.2 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (which almost OHKOs after Stealth Rock) so Heatran isn't a really good counter for Gardevoir though I agree that it has really poor physical defense which makes it frail and it isn't very fast to beat very helpful against ho teams.

Agreed, Heatran is a terrible check to Gardevoir. Because Hyper Voice has almost zero switch-ins, it's incredibly easy to predict the steel type and demolish it with a Focus Blast as it comes in. Or in Scizor's case, WoW it.

I wouldn't mind seeing Gardevoir move up, but I think A suits it just fine.

 

[dadoux]

Let's resume what i said throughout the whole thread.
S => A+
Every team has a way to check it, and it's really predictable because it packs the same specs set since day one. the S rank should be an exception in the metagame, and imo it's pretty much "the S pokemon are the most likely to be suspected", A+ imo.

S => A+
I don't think a lot of people will agree with this, but Landorus is not great enough to be S imo, it suffers from an enormous 4MSS, it's not that fast and some counter are becoming more and more popular, (Tornadus-T AV / M-Aerodactyl under sand / Bulkier version of CharY / Mandibuzz and stuff) the LO + Epower / Focus blast / Knock off / Psychic or Sludge wave is great against stall (even though i think stall will come more and more prepared to this) but you have an harder time finding your pace against offensive teams. It's still really good, but A+ is more fitting for me.

A+ => S
Like i said great fucking support mon, great ability, good stats, great typing and movepool, the CM variant can be really threatening because flamethrower is just gonna gonna wreck M scizor / Bisharp. It can have some hard times against HO because it's not THAT bulky but it's still really good. It can fit on everyteam and be annoying against pretty much every playstyle. Clefable is the definition of the XY metagame.

A => A-
Dragonite is a bit overrated for me, i'd put it in A- , i don't see the hype about that mon, multiscale is great but you can't spam outrage no more and with scarfchomp/terrakion to check ChardX, you are even more screwed if you attempt a sweep.

A => A+
You can't go wrong with that mon, great SR support / physical wall, even as a scarf it is really cool, intimidate helps a lot to check ChardX / CBTerrakion and all that stuff, and u-turn helps you keep the momentum.
A => A+
Awesome stallbreaker, with taunt / knock off / roost / wow, you'll be unbreakable as long as you're not toxiced, the knock off buff fits him really well.
A- => B+
Is it me or this pokemon is a bit overrated? Yeah you can check Medicham pretty well but i don't find it to be that great. You can pass that one, i never seen it work enough to really judge, but it doesn't sound like an A- mon to me.

B+ => A-
The most annoying wall in OU, this thing is just a pain to deal with, his ability to heal / pass 200+ hp wishes makes it even more annoying.
B+ => B
Someone needs to tell me how this thing is better than Raikou, Manectric, Mega aerodactyl and stuff.
B => A-
B => B+
The two offensive dogs are just really good against offense, they can keep the momentum with volt switch, check. Manectric is a "mega offensive style with intidimidate" while Raikou is more of a "AV Fast electric support"

B+ => B
This thing is just not as great as everyone thought it would be. It is actually outclassed by his non-mega version and even things like Landorus-i are better stallbreaker that this thing, because you need sand and you're not that fast/versatile.
B => B+
Starmie is getting better and better and the defensive spinner set is pretty nice, if CharX ever gets banned it will be even better imo.
B- => B
This mon is underrated, the agility (especially under rain) can just make a mess in the opponent's team and its typing is really great. Is movepool is not really wide but a support set is not really bad with volt switch / heal bell.

B- => B

B- => B
In the V2, you saw me arguing about the fact that entei is a B- mon, and i came to this conclusion: Entei is good in B-, it's just that the others mons doesn't deserve to be there. Celebi is a pretty good support, with baton pass to keep momentum and the spD set is pretty good. Without Aegislash and now Mawile, Staraptor has a field day to just wreck everything with his 2 reckless boosted stabs, this thing is just great in birdspam. We could argue about Chesnaught's place too, even though he lost aegislash, his main way to set-up.

B- => C+
Absol just sucks, 4MSS, weak defenses, enormous attack stat that he can't even benefits that well, and you need to sacrifice a mega slot to play it. Not worth it, at all.

C+ => B
Those two macho mans are ranked as if they were shit...but they're not.
Conkeldurr shines by its great bulk given to him by the Assault Vest and Drain punch, and its ability to absorb status with guts. The offensive sheer force / Iron fist one are scary as hell too. It is also great in this metagame, where he can revenge kill Terrakion / ExcaTtar / Diggersby with ease. It could be B+ actually.
Hawlucha was completely walled by Aegislash, and now that it's gone, you can really see it shine. Acrobatics+HJK are really good stabb, his 3 ability are worth it ( Limber for Thundurus / Mold breaker for unaware / Unburden for high speed with sitrus berry sub and the synergy with acrobatics)

C => C+ (The bulkiest version)
Great typing, being able to check things like Excadrill / Rotom-w / Keldeo / Diggersby is no joke. Wow / Leech seed is annoying as hell.

C => C+
Lacks recovery, but great spD and good ability. The AV is a really good Landorus / CharY check.

D => C

D => C+
D => C/ C+
Calling these pokemons mediocre and comparing them with dipshit like Mantine is really ridiculous. Empoleon is not great but it can shine with his good typing / defog / SR / Roar / Scald and stuff.
Doublade is physically bulkier than Aegislash while still sharing the same awesome typing, you can't underestimate it, it could be B+ the future. You can still check a lot of things.
Haxorus is outshined by a lot of dragons, but the SD / Poison jab can prove to be really scary and opens up a lot of holes in HO. It is shit against offense so C is just fair for it.

I think that's all at the moment.

 

[Ropeburn]

S => A+
I don't think a lot of people will agree with this, but Landorus is not great enough to be S imo, it suffers from an enormous 4MSS, it's not that fast and some counter are becoming more and more popular, (Tornadus-T AV / M-Aerodactyl under sand / Bulkier version of CharY / Mandibuzz and stuff) the LO + Epower / Focus blast / Knock off / Psychic or Sludge wave is great against stall (even though i think stall will come more and more prepared to this) but you have an harder time finding your pace against offensive teams. It's still really good, but A+ is more fitting for me.

A => A- / B+
Dragonite is a bit overrated for me, i'd put it in A- / B+, i don't see the hype about that mon, multiscale is great but you can't spam outrage no more and with scarfchomp/terrakion to check ChardX, you are even more screwed if you attempt a sweep.

Landorus-I is literally the pokemon that can single-handedly dismantles stall. With its incredible power and decent bulk there's just no reliable switch in to this thing, compounded by the fact htat it has Knock Off now and doesn't mind taking Chansey's bulk.

Dragonite is the best Choice Band Dragon in the tier honestly. Multiscale is so easy to keep intact with all the great defog users in the tier, and he's only gotten better now that Mega Mawile is gone.

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 169-201 (44.2 - 52.6%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


If you're going to try to drop some of the best pokemon in OU, then you need to provide more evidence than "it's overrated"

 

[Prinz]

Dragonite in B rank ? please no

With the ban of Aegislash and Mawile it's gonna be one of the best offensive mon. CB Outrage hits really, really hard and CB ES is just too good to revenge-kill all these frail threats like Medicham, Gardevoir, Alakazam and Greninja. Its coverage moves aren't bad either and Fire Punch, Superpower and Earthquake are all viable options. Also speaking about the DD set, now that Aegi is gone it doesn't have to use EQ to bypass it anymore and it can run Fire Punch in order to hit things like Skarmory and Ferrothorn. I can't see it really be worse with the recent bans, otherwise it got a very big buff. Keep it in A rank please, or even put it in A+ but not really put in B+ with things like Regular Scizor which have almost no usage in the current metagame.

 

[dadoux]

In this metagame you don't really need to play CB dragons, so i don't care about that. Gardevoir can destroy stall even more easily than Landorus, you need better arguments than that. Stalls are already adapting by playing Landorus checks, and you can't put every stallbreaker in S rank.
B+ was too much i can give you that, but A- is good enough for me, A= sounds really high.

Btw i named like 30000 pokemons in this post, don't point out only one, i never said i was 100% right about everything, Dragonite / Slowbro / Celebi are the one i'm not 100% sure about.

 

[Prinz]

Celebi is a cool support move for offense teams as it can pass Substitute to things like Charizard-X while checking Keldeo, Azumarill and Rotom-W but it isn't that bad and it can go in B rank

Also I agree that Slowbro is a bit underrated but it's the only mon that stall teams can run if they don't want to be smashed by Medicham so I don't really know. I'd suggest to wait a bit and see how the metagame will evolve in the next months, for now A- rank its fine by me

PS: Put down Victini from B rank, it only niches was that it could check Mawile for Stall teams but now that it's gone it lost its main niche. Choice Scarf / Band sets are cool I guess, but they can take advantage of really easily and therefore the C+ rank seems fine to me (I don't really care if it remains in B rank as well)

 

[Celticpride]

Dragonite might be fine where it is if only because two of the biggest things that can switch into Outrage and Extremespeed consistently (Aegi and Mawile) are gone. The only things that resist those moves are Steels, and CB Dragonite can run Earthquake and Fire Punch to deal with those threats with prediction. I haven't used CB Nite in a while, but it seems like it would rise more then it would fall with the recent bans.

 

[Albacore]

WoW Victini's niche wasn't beating Mawile on stall... It's first and foremost used as a counter to MMedi, MGarde, YZard, and Clefable. And with Mawilite gone, these three (especially the first two) will probably become far more popular. Victini still serves an important role on Stall, so I see no reason to drop it.

Landorus-I dropping actually kinda makes sense since it's no longer the perfect stall counter it used to be due to the rise of SpD Gliscor. It also suffers huge competition from MGarde, MMedi and MHera who are even better vs stall, but it's still the best nonmega wallbreaker and therefore often the stallbreaker of choice for teams that don't feel like using up their mega slot for one. It's also quite bulky and therefore better against offense than most other stallbreakers. Its speed tier is pretty good and lets it beat most if not all other wallbreakers 1v1. Two immunities also help it come in a few times vs offense. I do think it's still worthy of S rank, even though it isn't quite as good as it used to be.

Dragonite is clearly far better with MMawile gone so I don't feel the need to explain why it shouldn't drop.

 

[Srn]

alrite I feel like I wanna really fight off some char-y to A posts here.
I'm seeing the main argument here as "requires too much support" and "mawile banned so defensive set is useless."
Both are pretty untrue.
I mean when you think about it, char-y has a great defensive typing and reliable recovery while wallbreakers like mega cham and mega garde have minimal bulk, pretty bad defensive typing, and nearly no switch-in opportunities (garde can switch into latios and conk thats about it lol).
I hate arguments that tell me char-y requires too much support because atleast my wallbreaker can switch into moves lmao it requires far more support to actually get mega medicham and mega gardevoir in.

Now lets take a look at moves.
Char-y has an ez to spam fire blast with 100% accurate no drawbacks coverage in solarbeam, and can nail any heatran or tyranitar looking to switch in with a nice focus blast. Basically only dragons are really safe and even then ttar can pursuit trap the most common ones and just naturally checks dragonite and charizard-x yay. Sure, it requires pursuit support, but once you factor that in char-y is just far more efficient seeing as it can actually switch-in and actually stay healthy.

Mega medicham has a fairly spammable HJK and it doesn't need to rely on its coverage too much, but it needs to watch out for protect. It can't switch in at all and has zero bulk, thus it requires heavy volt switch/u-turn support to get in safely.

Mega garde can switch into like two mons and relies on terribly inaccurate focus blasts to nail 80% of her switch-ins, and half the time those focus blasts will miss anyways. Honestly whenever I actually use mega garde I find myself using focus blast more than I use hyper voice in almost every game; that's a problem lol.

Compared to the volt switch/u-turn support that these wallbreakers need to perform effectively, i'd say that just slapping a scarftar on the team (which is already an excellent mon in this meta) is far better. I'd say every team should carry SOME kind of hazard support because its difficult to limit yourself to mons that aren't SR weak and don't rely on sashes when building HO, not to mention you'd still need atleast two taunters to effectively keep rocks off.

This isn't even mentioning that char-y is one of the best switch-ins to mew at the moment, whose usage is higher than Snoop Dogg in this meta. Just having an ez switch in to mew is just SOOOOOO nice cuz mew is fucking disgusting seriously fuck that pink blob.

TL; DR may not seem like it but char-y is far more efficient at wallbreaking than other A ranked megas are so it should stay at A+

 

[Prinz]

I never was a fan of Stealth Rock weak mon in stall team but yeah, I think that Victini can stay in B rank after all.

About Landorus-I Im not too sure about it should be but I would keep it in S rank as of now. It's a solid Stealth Rock setter for offensive and balanced teams while it's quite bulky for being an offensive mon. Also it's quite unpredictable but it has lot of cool usable moves like Psychic, Sludge Wave, Knock Off, HP Ice (I have seen a bit on ladder because of Specially Defensive Gliscor as Albacore mentioned). S Rank seems fine for me.

 

[naturalstupidity]

PS: Put down Victini from B rank, it only niches was that it could check Mawile for Stall teams but now that it's gone it lost its main niche. Choice Scarf / Band sets are cool I guess, but they can take advantage of really easily and therefore the C+ rank seems fine to me (I don't really care if it remains in B rank as well)

This is just false. Victini's main role wasn't just to check Mega Mawile, it also answers opposing stall teams, the three wallbreaking megas, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Scizor, and a variety of other things that are valuable to a stall team. Keep Victini in B-rank, possibly even move it up to B+ because its Choiced sets are still pretty cool and give it a good level of versatility.

Also supporting Mega Gardevoir to A+. This thing is just crazy good. Its matchup against stall, as said before, is incredible, and with its great set of resistances and special bulk it can easily come in on the Lati twins, Secret Sword-locked Keldeo, Greninja that didn't use Hydro Pump, Rotom-W, and other staples of offense. Once it gets in safely there are few-to-no safe switch-ins, and practically all Pokemon on a typical offensive team get 1-2HKOd. Due to excellent three-move coverage of Psyshock/Scream/Focus Blast, its Its incredible matchup against stall, good matchup versus offense, and versatility push it to A+ imo.

I'm on the fence about Landorus-I, but I think it can stay S. It has a specialized list of counters and checks that, bar maybe Cress, can all be broken by the right fourth option (CM or Knock Off typically). Similar to BW2 Keldeo, it picks its counters based on its set and beyond that is a devastating wallbreaker, so I think S is the best place for it. I would not be opposed to it moving down to A+, however.

snip

Agreeing with CharY staying in A+, but Gardevoir actually has a number of switch-in opportunities, and Charizard relies on the same 70% Focus Blast to hit many of its switch-ins. Needing Pursuit support is a fairly big deal, but Charizard Y is just so much more devastating than other wallbreakers with it so I still agree with A+.

sniped on victini but whatever

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Landorus-I is literally the pokemon that can single-handedly dismantles stall. With its incredible power and decent bulk there's just no reliable switch in to this thing, compounded by the fact htat it has Knock Off now and doesn't mind taking Chansey's bulk.

Honestly most good stall teams can Landorous-I realitivley well with the following:

Mega Charizard Y Sylveon Mandibuzz Gyarados Dragonite zapdos Mega Aerodactyl TornadusT Mantine Gliscor Cresselia
More shaky answers: Latias mew p2 meloetta Slowking Chansey Skarmory

yada yada coverage moves can beat some or some of those are bad. Just saying there are a lot of things that can deal with it on stall and it isn't going to destroy you that easily.

Imo Mew, MG Clefable and Mega Cross are much better stallbreakers than landorous

honestly the only thing holding it in S is its much better vs offense then them, (but still struggles)

Well S seems to be far more lenient these days with letting Keldeo in.
Honestly tho Landorous in A+ doesn't seem that outlandish

 

[Srn]

This is just false. Victini's main role wasn't just to check Mega Mawile, it also answers opposing stall teams, the three wallbreaking megas, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Scizor, and a variety of other things that are valuable to a stall team. Keep Victini in B-rank, possibly even move it up to B+ because its Choiced sets are still pretty cool and give it a good level of versatility.

Also supporting Mega Gardevoir to A+. This thing is just crazy good. Its matchup against stall, as said before, is incredible, and with its great set of resistances and special bulk it can easily come in on the Lati twins, Secret Sword-locked Keldeo, Greninja that didn't use Hydro Pump, Rotom-W, and other staples of offense. Once it gets in safely there are few-to-no safe switch-ins, and practically all Pokemon on a typical offensive team get 1-2HKOd. Due to excellent three-move coverage of Psyshock/Scream/Focus Blast, its Its incredible matchup against stall, good matchup versus offense, and versatility push it to A+ imo.



Agreeing with CharY staying in A+, but Gardevoir actually has a number of switch-in opportunities, and Charizard relies on the same 70% Focus Blast to hit many of its switch-ins. Needing Pursuit support is a fairly big deal, but Charizard Y is just so much more devastating than other wallbreakers with it so I still agree with A+.

sniped on victini but whatever

The only real switch-in char-y relies on focus blast for is heatran and tyranitar, and ttar often is sent in first turn and eats a solarbeam to scout char-x or char-y so that's already a snack wrap. Honestly I just run focus punch for the hell of it I hate missing and heatran doesn't usually plume after seeing focus punch anyways so yay.
Fire Blast is the best way just to hit your dragon switch-ins anyway, that's what switches in most of the time.
So basically char-y relies on focus blast for two mons and garde relies on focus blast for every steel in the game not named lucario or bisharp lol.
Besides, I think tyranitar is in general just an excellent offensive partner, like bisharp is to medicham. Tyranitar pursuiting lati@s, just as Bisharp pursuited aegislash when it was OU, is just icing on the cake, they're just good partners regardless and would be used with it even if they didnt' get pursuit.

I'd also like to agree with lando to A+, it doesnt like guessing between earth power or knock off every time lati@s is on the opposing field and it really has to juggle with some options to hit everything it needs; earth power and psychic definitely don't cut it. Coupled with an incredible rise in sp. def gliscor and i'd say its legit to drop him to A+.

 

[theV8man]

alrite I feel like I wanna really fight off some char-y to A posts here.
I'm seeing the main argument here as "requires too much support" and "mawile banned so defensive set is useless."
Both are pretty untrue.
I mean when you think about it, char-y has a great defensive typing and reliable recovery while wallbreakers like mega cham and mega garde have minimal bulk, pretty bad defensive typing, and nearly no switch-in opportunities (garde can switch into latios and conk thats about it lol).
I hate arguments that tell me char-y requires too much support because atleast my wallbreaker can switch into moves lmao it requires far more support to actually get mega medicham and mega gardevoir in.

Now lets take a look at moves.
Char-y has an ez to spam fire blast with 100% accurate no drawbacks coverage in solarbeam, and can nail any heatran or tyranitar looking to switch in with a nice focus blast. Basically only dragons are really safe and even then ttar can pursuit trap the most common ones and just naturally checks dragonite and charizard-x yay. Sure, it requires pursuit support, but once you factor that in char-y is just far more efficient seeing as it can actually switch-in and actually stay healthy.

Mega medicham has a fairly spammable HJK and it doesn't need to rely on its coverage too much, but it needs to watch out for protect. It can't switch in at all and has zero bulk, thus it requires heavy volt switch/u-turn support to get in safely.

Mega garde can switch into like two mons and relies on terribly inaccurate focus blasts to nail 80% of her switch-ins, and half the time those focus blasts will miss anyways. Honestly whenever I actually use mega garde I find myself using focus blast more than I use hyper voice in almost every game; that's a problem lol.

Compared to the volt switch/u-turn support that these wallbreakers need to perform effectively, i'd say that just slapping a scarftar on the team (which is already an excellent mon in this meta) is far better. I'd say every team should carry SOME kind of hazard support because its difficult to limit yourself to mons that aren't SR weak and don't rely on sashes when building HO, not to mention you'd still need atleast two taunters to effectively keep rocks off.

This isn't even mentioning that char-y is one of the best switch-ins to mew at the moment, whose usage is higher than Snoop Dogg in this meta. Just having an ez switch in to mew is just SOOOOOO nice cuz mew is fucking disgusting seriously fuck that pink blob.

TL; DR may not seem like it but char-y is far more efficient at wallbreaking than other A ranked megas are so it should stay at A+

I don't think its that hard to get Medicham in... It's not like you're switching into really powerful attacks, you're usually switching in on stuff like Chansey/Skarm that can't do much back. You don't need u-turn/volt switch support, but its nice. On the other hand, Char-Y needs SR/Pursuit support... Saying Char Y needs more support than any other wallbreaker isn't right. Char Y is great with this support though. Also you're complaining about Focus Blast's accuracy on Mega Garde while you yourself say its necessary for Char Y to take down Heatran too... And you say you rely on inaccurate Focus Blast to "nail 80% of her switchins" so Heatran, Ferro? Almost every other steel type isn't trying to take Hyper Voice even if they resist.