Resource XY NU Viability Ranking

[Punchshroom]

I think Samurott to A+ is a fine nomination. It has pretty much no counters at all, and the best checks get donked by Taunt. It does a huge number to balanced and defensive teams, and all it needs to devastate offense is Sticky Web support. Lanturn is a solid check, but it's not very common. SD is also still a really good set. It's a bit slower and weaker than Feraligatr, but it has Megahorn and Knock Off, which are much better coverage options than what Feraligatr has to offer. SD Samurott also has huge surprise factor, which is huge. You can definitely win a game solely because your opponent sacrifices their best check to SD Samurott, thinking that it's special Life Orb.

I won't cry it stays in A, but I think people are underrating it.

Knock Off is okay for neutral coverage on Samurott, but it doesn't really offer any additional coverage that Gatr's Return doesn't aside from Gourgeist (and if you're using a Return Samurott you might as well be using Gatr). It's nice for removing items and all, but it's not actually a safe move to throw out since its weakening effect against an itemless Pokemon factors in greatly when trying to go for a sweep (SD Knock Off Samurott has no chance against an itemless Plume, while Gatr fares better against it). Megahorn is nice and powerful, but fewer Water resists are hit super effectively by it than those that are either neutral to it or even resist it, such as Vileplume, Dragalge, Lanturn, and Qwilfish; the only notable Poke struck by Megahorn would be Tangela I guess. Gatr, meanwhile, has Ice Punch and Earthquake, which super effectively strikes all of these Pokemon. I legit cannot see how you can claim that Samurott's coverage is better than Gatr's in NU; Gatr has far more effective coverage against NU Water resists. Samurott's coverage options are better in RU (where stuff like Slowking, Tangrowth, Doublade, and Jellicent reside), but not here.

Soulgazer I won't deny that Gatr is hard to stop (pretty much the only hard counters I can think of are Poliwrath, Tangela, and perhaps defensive Leafeon), since Dragon Dance Gatr can kill almost every mon that can safely revenge SD Gatr. Samurott's flaw is that while its SD set is also revenged by these same Pokemon, it can use its other set to...still lose to these revenge killers. This is what I meant by Samurott's unpredictability factor not being as deadly as it was last Gen, since there are more offensive responses to Samurott this Gen that neither set can deal with. If you have an SD Gatr check but face off against a DD Gatr, you could well be fucked, since Gatr has the speed to threaten offensive teams and the coverage to threaten slower teams. However, if the SD Samurott turns out to be a special attacker, your SD Rott checks aren't any less viable responses to special Rott either. Substitute Samurott can be quite the pain though, I will admit, but so begins the difficult choice between Life Orb for general power or Leftovers for survivability. It would also drop coverage against slower mons, and Samurott wants to fare better against them to maintain its advantage over Gatr.

With all that said, I can attest to Samurott being deadly as fuck with Web support, because if there is one crucial advantage that Rott has over Gatr, it's that its ability to go physical or special makes it a pretty brutal guessing game for slower teams, and it can continue trucking on from there. 70 base speed is pretty darn slow for Samurott to apply this kind of dangerous offensive pressure consistently, which still makes it A in my eyes. but if it ends up in A+, so be it :)

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Carracosta and Barbaracle's rankings have always been an inside debate for me for quite some time now.

- On one hand, there are almost no Scarfers that can outspeed a +2 Jolly Barbaracle, much less revenge it (it is one of the reasons why Scarf Raichu is even discussed). It has much more effective coverage than Costa in Tough Claws Grass Knot and Cross Chop which it has a free moveslot for, which allows it to break Seismitoad and Ferroseed easily, and even allow it to do some holepunching against defensive teams, which it can outspeed with investment, unlike Costa.

- On the other hand, Costa has Aqua Jet, which allows it to retaliate better against faster offensive teams. Its lower speed and Solid Rock also grants it safer setup opportunities. Its better physical bulk and access to Aqua Jet makes it a lot less vulnerable to priority, primarily allowing it to dodge Sucker Punches. Carracosta can even pull off a defensive set, where it can utilize Solid Rock and large physical bulk to set up Stealth Rock. While its defensive typing may be iffy, its dual STABs threaten pretty much every hazard remover, so they would be hard pressed to clear away the Stealth Rock in Costa's face.

In terms of flaws, Barbaracle is a tad trickier to Smash with (which is a problem when that is what Barbara should be doing most of the time), while Costa's coverage is limited (let's be honest, SmashCosta cannot really afford a luring option since its main STABs and especially Aqua Jet are too important to drop, at which point I'll just use a Samurott or Barbaracle itself). It seems to me that Barbaracle would thrive better in a more defensive meta due to its speed and coverage, while Costa would fare better against offense due to its priority and bulk, although each still fares well against their less favorable team archetype matchup. On the fence here.

 

[DTC]

i've always preferred sd samurott over feraligatr because i feel like knock off is way more useful than ice punch (even though ice punch has better coverage). it has better neutral coverage and even if you can't kill a pokemon with it, knock off will severely cripple them. yeah ice punch has better coverage but it's also a pathetically weak 75 bp while knock off is 97.5 when you knock an item off. the extra bulk gatr offers barely matters because you want to get knocked into torrent range by attacks as a torrent sd sweeper. samurott is just bulky enough to withstand decently strong attacks and get into torrent range. it's true that gatr can scare away revenge killers that think it's using a dd set, but samurott has similar utility in scaring away physical walls thinking samurott is using a special set.

 

[Punchshroom]

i've always preferred sd samurott over feraligatr because i feel like knock off is way more useful than ice punch (even though ice punch has better coverage). it has better neutral coverage and even if you can't kill a pokemon with it, knock off will severely cripple them. yeah ice punch has better coverage but it's also a pathetically weak 75 bp while knock off is 97.5 when you knock an item off. the extra bulk gatr offers barely matters because you want to get knocked into torrent range by attacks as a torrent sd sweeper. samurott is just bulky enough to withstand decently strong attacks and get into torrent range. it's true that gatr can scare away revenge killers that think it's using a dd set, but samurott has similar utility in scaring away physical walls thinking samurott is using a special set.

I get that Knock Off is good for offering utility, but when it is used as a coverage move for a boosting set, its weakening effect against itemless foes comes into play here. Say, you've Knocked Off Leftovers off a Vileplume or Seismitoad, cool, they've no passive recovery now. The problem is that when Samurott starts going for the boost, it finds that it cannot 2HKO either Plume or Toad with +2 Knock Off, even after the damage from the first Knock Off. You know what, scratch all of that: +2 Knock Off does not 2HKO them even if they had their items. What this means is that Knock Off kind of does not help Samurott sweep any better at all (bar against Gourgeist), and means that Samurott is still very reliant on its Water moves to do real damage or would simply fall flat. Unlike other mons that use Knock Off as a coverage move (basically Fighting-types), almost all of Samurott's Knock Off targets aren't weak to it, which heavily reduces its effectiveness as a coverage move, since the damage from the first Knock Off will not make up for the weakened subsequent Knock Offs even after a boost. Knock Off may be good universal utility, but when it doesn't improve Samurott's chances of sweeping or ocassionally even manages to hinder it, that utility is suddenly greatly reduced, because who wants to hold back from using Knock Off? You may argue that this can help its teammates sweep, but most do not have to sacrifice their own sweeping potential to do so.

Really (imo), physical Samurott's success over Gatr comes from the potency and reputation of its special set, which allows it to draw out special Rott counters and then bullshit its way through SD counters by getting an extra boost / attack off on them as they frantically switch in (essentially what DTC said). This by no means makes it a bad set, rather it managed to avoid being outclassed due to surprise factor....which now that I look at it doesn't really negatively affect its ranking. I'm less opposed to Samurott getting A+ at this point, but just throwing that out there.

 

[Holiday]

Just a quick question. Why are things that are possibly about to leave the tier not in S rank? (Namely Omastar and Gurdurr) is there no correlation between tiering and usage?

 

[Ares]

Just a quick question. Why are things that are possibly about to leave the tier not in S rank? (Namely Omastar and Gurdurr) is there no correlation between tiering and usage?

Yeah there is really no correlation, its based on usage in the above tier, or even in UU and OU, for instance Amoongus might move all the way up to OU from RU because its used enough in OU. So even thought things in NU might not be S rank they will get pulled up to RU based on usage stats. Shiftry, Fletchinder, and Magneton are all examples of stuff moving up through usage.

Edit: That question would of probably been better asked in the question and answers thread found here for future reference. Also some things are better in higher tiers which is why they might be pulled up or ranked higher in a different tier.


Edit Edit: Kiba Roserade a good example of this is Shuckle, while in NU shuckle was alright but wasnt great, due to the fact that there were a variety of good defoggers and some pretty decent spinners. When it moved up to RU it was S rank due to the fact that the meta was really suited to Sticky Web HO, there were a lack of good spinners and defoggers and things like Defiant Braviary to deter defog. NU had none of this and so Shuckle wasnt as good, ranks arent really relevant to a pokemon moving up.

 

[Holiday]

Yeah there is really no correlation, its based on usage in the above tier, or even in UU and OU, for instance Amoongus might move all the way up to OU from RU because its used enough in OU. So even thought things in NU might not be S rank they will get pulled up to RU based on usage stats. Shiftry, Fletchinder, and Magneton are all examples of stuff moving up through usage.

I mean I understand the concept of moving up, but don't you think that the Pokemon being moved up would be ranked top in their tier??

 

[atomicllamas]

I mean I understand the concept of moving up, but don't you think that the Pokemon being moved up would be ranked top in their tier??

Not at all actually, Omastar is good in RU because it beats all of the common defoggers in RU, but in NU it is worse than Crustle a lot of the time because NU doesn't have any good defoggers. This is an especially good example because even though Omastar is about as good as Crustle in NU, in RU Omastar is B+ in viability ranking while Crustle is like C- or C (Crustle sucks). Gurdurr was very good in RU up until recently because everyone got a Zoroark boner and Gurdurr was a great counter, where as it is beat by a lot more of the top NU meta than it is in RU. So no they shouldn't be top ranked just because they are good in a different tier.

 

[ryan]

I get that Knock Off is good for offering utility, but when it is used as a coverage move for a boosting set, its weakening effect against itemless foes comes into play here. Say, you've Knocked Off Leftovers off a Vileplume or Seismitoad, cool, they've no passive recovery now. The problem is that when Samurott starts going for the boost, it finds that it cannot 2HKO either Plume or Toad with +2 Knock Off, even after the damage from the first Knock Off. You know what, scratch all of that: +2 Knock Off does not 2HKO them even if they had their items. What this means is that Knock Off kind of does not help Samurott sweep any better at all (bar against Gourgeist), and means that Samurott is still very reliant on its Water moves to do real damage or would simply fall flat. Unlike other mons that use Knock Off as a coverage move (basically Fighting-types), almost all of Samurott's Knock Off targets aren't weak to it, which heavily reduces its effectiveness as a coverage move, since the damage from the first Knock Off will not make up for the weakened subsequent Knock Offs even after a boost. Knock Off may be good universal utility, but when it doesn't improve Samurott's chances of sweeping or ocassionally even manages to hinder it, that utility is suddenly greatly reduced, because who wants to hold back from using Knock Off? You may argue that this can help its teammates sweep, but most do not have to sacrifice their own sweeping potential to do so.

Really (imo), physical Samurott's success over Gatr comes from the potency and reputation of its special set, which allows it to draw out special Rott counters and then bullshit its way through SD counters by getting an extra boost / attack off on them as they frantically switch in (essentially what DTC said). This by no means makes it a bad set, rather it managed to avoid being outclassed due to surprise factor....which now that I look at it doesn't really negatively affect its ranking. I'm less opposed to Samurott getting A+ at this point, but just throwing that out there.

For the record, I find that Megahorn is better than Knock Off anyways. It gets a 2HKO vs. physically defensive Ferroseed after some prior damage at +2, which is really huge because Feraligatr cannot do the same without +2 Life Orb EQ. In general, it has much better coverage because it hits Grass-types without sacrificing coverage vs. other things such as bulky Waters not named Qwilfish or Poliwrath. But I'd probably support Samurott being in A+ on its merits as a special Life Orb attacker alone. The SD set, to me, just pushes it over and makes it even better.

 

[Punchshroom]

For the record, I find that Megahorn is better than Knock Off anyways. It gets a 2HKO vs. physically defensive Ferroseed after some prior damage at +2, which is really huge because Feraligatr cannot do the same without +2 Life Orb EQ. In general, it has much better coverage because it hits Grass-types without sacrificing coverage vs. other things such as bulky Waters not named Qwilfish or Poliwrath. But I'd probably support Samurott being in A+ on its merits as a special Life Orb attacker alone. The SD set, to me, just pushes it over and makes it even better.

Samurott also needs Life Orb to do so, except Megahorn makes contact and coupled with Leech Seed + Protect, Ferroseed can still survive while taking roughly a third or more of Samurott's health in one fell swoop. Also, +2 Life Orb EQ? Doesn't Swords Dance normally not carry Life Orb, and the DD set usually not get more than one Dragon Dance? Recently I've been using a Dragon Dance + Superpower Gatr; I used Superpower on DD Gatr since it can afford the coverage. Losing Earthquake against Qwilfish does kind of suck (heck, at least it can get past it at all, unlike physical Samurott), but when it can demolish physically defensive Ferroseed at <85%, you definitely cannot say that Gatr cannot get past Ferro if it wants to. Physical Samurott, on the other hand, can never afford Superpower without dropping an incredibly important move.

I still think Samurott's special set is only worthy of A (since it still faces competition from the likes of Ludicolo and Gorebyss), since it has no way to boost its speed and power unlike its brethren, especially speed since fast responses to Samurott are more prevelant in this Gen, and by no means is Samurott the most dangerous specially offensive Water-type in NU (well, at least after the surprise factor is blown). But the SD set could be enough to push it up to A+.

 

[ryan]

It gets a 2HKO vs. physically defensive Ferroseed after some prior damage

+2 252+ Atk Samurott Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 122-144 (41.7 - 49.3%) -- 83.6% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

oo

 

[Fluze3]

Nominating Ludicolo to move back up from B--->B+/A- rank
This thing is soo potent in NU due to it's amazing stabs and access to ice beam. Not much switches into Hydro pump safely (as it is fairly powerful with a modest nature) that can also take a giga drain or ice beam. Ludicolo has insane stallbreaking capabilities with it's coverage alone that can easily ravage unprepared teams. Rain, while not as dangerous as it was in 5th gen NU, is still dangerous enough to put in serious amounts of work and Ludicolo often has little difficulty in setting up a rain dance due to the sheer amount of switches it forces.

Requesting Samurott to be demoted from (A-)-->B rank
Samurott has the ability to run two sets for the most part; Swords Dance and Special Oriented mixed. The former is completely outclassed by Feraligatr, while the latter is fulfilled better by Ludicolo. The only thing Samurott offers over Ludicolo on it's special set is additional power on it's Hydro pumps and ice beams, as well as the ability to run mild/rash and run aqua jet. Ludicolo's ground resist, access to Swift swim and ability to set up the rain warrants a much better reason to use it over Special Samurott.

I can see Ludicolo moving up to B+ at most. Although it's got amazing STAB combinations and great speed under Rain, but it's power just doesn't cut it. Such Special Walls, such as Audino and ESPECIALLY Mantine are able to take almost any hit from it and wear it down or stall Rain out. Kangashkan is able to take a hit with ease and retalliate with STAB Return, easily 2HKO'ing off the bat. The traditional rain counters from last gen are still evident this gen, so...

As for Samurott, it does have a niche between it's too sets:

Why can't we have both?

Samurott is able to play a Bulky Mixed role; where it can have Ice Beam on a SD set to get past particular threats that are Physically oriented; PLUS, it can run HP Fire/Grass Knot if it wants to as a method of getting past Ferroseed and Seismitoad, respectively. It belongs in A- Rank because it's rather unpredictable from team preview and that it also has bulk to support its mixed potential. It's outclassed if it is specifically oriented in Physical or Special -- but when Mixed, it becomes one of the best waters in the tier at what it does. The only mixed water that exists elsewhere is Octillery -- and that thing only works well under trick room. It belongs in A-.

 

[Dark G]

Why can't we have both?

Samurott is able to play a Bulky Mixed role; where it can have Ice Beam on a SD set to get past particular threats that are Physically oriented; PLUS, it can run HP Fire/Grass Knot if it wants to as a method of getting past Ferroseed and Seismitoad, respectively. It belongs in A- Rank because it's rather unpredictable from team preview and that it also has bulk to support its mixed potential. It's outclassed if it is specifically oriented in Physical or Special -- but when Mixed, it becomes one of the best waters in the tier at what it does. The only mixed water that exists elsewhere is Octillery -- and that thing only works well under trick room. It belongs in A-.

Your argument of Samurott's unpredictably, aswell as well as its ability run hp fire/grass knot on its SD set for the omnipresent ferroseed/Seismitoad is a very valid one that completely slipped my mind. Samurott is worthy of A- and I will remove my demotion from my original post.

 

[Pokedots]

I can see Ludicolo moving up to B+ at most. Although it's got amazing STAB combinations and great speed under Rain, but it's power just doesn't cut it. Such Special Walls, such as Audino and ESPECIALLY Mantine are able to take almost any hit from it and wear it down or stall Rain out. Kangashkan is able to take a hit with ease and retalliate with STAB Return, easily 2HKO'ing off the bat. The traditional rain counters from last gen are still evident this gen, so...

lol no
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino in Rain: 238-281 (58 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan in Rain: 363-426 (103.4 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
*cough* Fake Out+Sucker Punch *cough*

Ferroseed and AV Yama are what are making Ludicolo's life hell. However, I support it to B+, as it is simply better than a lot of the stuff in B-rank. And the traditional rain counters last gen have fallen well out of grace (e.g. Jynx, Roselia).

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

I can see Ludicolo moving up to B+ at most. Although it's got amazing STAB combinations and great speed under Rain, but it's power just doesn't cut it. Such Special Walls, such as Audino and ESPECIALLY Mantine are able to take almost any hit from it and wear it down or stall Rain out. Kangashkan is able to take a hit with ease and retalliate with STAB Return, easily 2HKO'ing off the bat. The traditional rain counters from last gen are still evident this gen, so...

Just want to point out that Ludicolo can lure in Rain counters like Mantine with Thunder Punch or a physical set with SD and Drain Punch for the likes of Ferroseed and Audino. Kangaskhan doesn't kill with Fake Out + Sucker Punch and Ludicolo recovers most of his health with +2 Drain Punch (which OHKO's easily). Thunder Punch is not even gimmicky on a dedicated rain team considering Mantine is a good stop to most Rain abusers including Ludicolo, and it doesn't require you to change any EV's. Ludicolo prefers Rain to be setup by Damp Rock users like Uxie/Liepard anyways because it can't take hits too well so you can just go Thunder Punch > Rain Dance. Ofcourse you can't do any of this if you slap Ludicolo on a random weatherless team as a sweeper. But it's not like Ludicolo doesn't screw over offensive teams with its standard set anyways, which fits on pretty much any team. I think Ludicolo is threatening enough for A- because without strong priority or something like Audino you're kind of screwed against it.

 

[Fluze3]

Lapras for D -> C-/C

Lapras, although has very little offensive pressure, it has access to one of the most viable moves in the game -- Freeze-dry. Even though it has a lackluster 85 base special attack, it also sports decent 130/80/95 defenses, meaning that it also has the bulk to take a few hits as well. Also, with its amazing water typing, Freeze-Dry and Hydro Pump provide PERFECT coverage (ice and water is only resisted by water types alone) and other moves can be used for coverage (Thunderbolt, Signal Beam, etc.) As it is one of the few pokemon that gets freeze-dry, it is able to take out the VileToad core reliably. Also, it soft counters an SD gatr set (one with ice punch instead of return). It's also a good candidate for an Assault Vest set.

Also, it can run a mixed set with Drill Run and Ice Shard to add a touch of wallbreaking material. Also, it has access to moves such as Curse and Dragon Dance to boost its Attack, Defense and/or Speed to usable levels. Also, with access to Priority in Ice Shard, it is able to take out weakened threats. This is outclassed by Gatr, though. :S

It doesn't have to go on the offensive. It can also run a specially or physically defensive set (depending on the team) and wall pokes because of its amazing HP stat (even without investment) and its defenses that become decent at max. (284 and 317 for def and spdef, respectively)

The only reason is that I don't suggest anything higher than C is because:

1. weak to SR :[ (and all hazards for that matter)
2. no reliable physical ice type move (ice shard and avalanche are the only ones)
3. rather baron special movepool as hydro+f-d provide perfect coverage
4. Rather lackluster offenses (physical can be boosted but is the worse set)

Let's take a look at the C rank description:

Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

I feel as if that if it has Rapid Spin support, it can provide a lot of pressure towards unprepared teams. It's rather outclassed by Cryogonal, but it does have a niche of perfect coverage with its STABs. If people decide to run Trick Room (like myself) it could be a good candidate for its coverage.

Here's the set that I have been using; it could possibly be improved. I run quiet because you can't afford to lose bulk. The EVs maximise offensive potential and 60 HP gives a leftovers number. Thunderbolt provides no extra coverage, but it's not recommended.

Lapras @ Assault Vest / Leftovers / NeverMeltIce
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 60 HP / 196 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Shard / Substitute
- Drill Run / Hidden Power [Fire] / Psychic

-or-

Lapras @ Leftovers / Lum Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Ice Shard
- Drill Run / Substitute

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

I was pretty disappointed to learn that Lapras doesn't get Scald. There's one set that I do want to try out though:

Lapras @ Leftovers
Trait: Hydration
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 4 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Freeze-Dry
- Surf
- Rain Dance
- Rest

Rest + Hydration is full of epic win, healing you back up to full and being immune to status for five turns. Aside from that you take advantage of STAB Rain-boosted Surfs which hit pretty hard. Freeze-Dry gives you flawless coverage and is basically one of the main reasons to use Lapras. Not sure about the EV's but they let you hit pretty hard and give you good overall bulk. A Whirlpool + Perish Song trapping set hasn't been mentioned either and seems excellent at removing unsuspecting pokes like Ferroseed from the game. I saw pokeaim use this tactic in POCL with Azumarill to remove Ferrothorn, so I don't see why Lapras couldn't do the same thing. Gimmicky sets usually work the best they say.

I remember using Lapras in BW OU with Curse + Rest on a Drizzle team. Sweeping was never so easy with Ice Shard and boosted Waterfalls... even Ferrothorn and Rotom-W were setup fodder lol. Too bad permanent rain is no longer a thing because that set was legitimately good. Oh the times...

 

[The D-Match]

:B ------> B+ or A-
Weezing is a great defensive Pokemon and can wall a sufficient portion of NU, including Sawk, Hariyama, Vileplume, Slurpuff, etc. To top it off it gets Will-O, which can cripple physical Pokemon AND can also run Haze, shutting down strong setup sweepers such as Feraligatr or Slurpuff. Its crippling flaws are its Sp.D and its lack of reliable recovery, but thats, in my opinion, overlooked by how well it works to shut down so many offensive threats.

:A- ------> B+ and

: B+ -----> A-
Pyroar and Typhlosion have many things in common: Special Attack, Speed, Bulk, etc. But, in my honest opinion I think Typhlosion outperforms Pyroar. Pyroar and Typholsion both love to run Scarf and even Specs to hit really hard; but the one thing that I think separates them both one thing: Eruption. Eruption is one of the most powerful fire type moves in the game right atm, and Scarf Typhlosion takes souls with Eruption. It is very common move to put on it, but it can be a better wallbreaker than Pyroar can. Typhlosion also has arguably better coverage than Pyroar, having Focus Blast, Extrasensory, etc. Pyroar does have an extra typing, having STAB Hyper Voice hit hard, but, it can't really hit anything super effectively. The normal typ also adds a weakness to Pyroar. Also, Pyroars only real coverage move is Dark Pulse and HP Grass which isn't as much as Typhlosion.

 

[skies]

The D-Match The thing is, Typhlosion gets worn down so fast. Between Stealth Rock cutting its power immensely and its susceptibility to priority, Eruption becomes nothing. It's actually only 112 base power after Stealth Rock, and anything under this is the same as Fire Blast, so this whole Eruption argument is nothing. And about coverage, it literally can run what? Focus Blast / Eruption / Fire Blast / Hidden Power? It's not that much, and STAB Hyper Voice is great and hits a lot more than Typhlosion's coverage. While it adds a weakness, it adds an immunity, so don't forget this. Sure, they're both strong Special Attackers, but Typhlosion has lower Speed which is really sucky because it has to run Choice Scarf to outspeed a ton of things but wants power from Life Orb / Choice Specs. Typhlosion's really not as great in practice as on paper. I think if anything Pyroar deserves a bump and Typhlosion a drop / stay the same.

 

[blaargathon]

I think Typhlosion is a valid comparison to Pyroar, but I don't agree with either dropping at all. Pyroar could possibly be raised, but I'm fine with it where it is.

Fire/Normal is pretty bad for a defensive typing which makes it just as easy to wear down as Ty, but for compensation, it gains STAB Hyper Voice.

To be honest, criticizing Ty for having a shallow movepool isn't really a valid criticism as STAB Hyper Voice is the only thing that Pyroar's moveslot has over Ty's. Dark Pulse is just there for coverage like Focus Blast, and IIRC both usually run HP Grass. Losing HP to Rocks weakens Eruption, but Typlosion still hits hard without Eruption.

TL,DR: I would say Pyroar is def better than Ty, but I don't think raising the two of them is that unreasonable. However both are fine where they are.

 

[skies]

I think Typhlosion is a valid comparison to Pyroar, but I don't agree with either dropping at all. Pyroar could possibly be raised, but I'm fine with it where it is.

Fire/Normal is pretty bad for a defensive typing which makes it just as easy to wear down as Ty, but for compensation, it gains STAB Hyper Voice.

To be honest, criticizing Ty for having a shallow movepool isn't really a valid criticism as STAB Hyper Voice is the only thing that Pyroar's moveslot has over Ty's. Dark Pulse is just there for coverage like Focus Blast, and IIRC both usually run HP Grass. Losing HP to Rocks weakens Eruption, but Typlosion still hits hard without Eruption.

It's not that Pyroar has a better movepool, it's just that Hyper Voice + Fire Blast hits like everything in the meta except for a few Pokemon. Typhlosion on the other hand has Focus Blast, which does hit a lot of the meta, but it lacks STAB, which is a huge bummer. I run Hidden Power Grass on Pyroar and Will-O-Wisp because of its ability to cripple a lot of slower threats and enable them to be worn down a bit. About the last sentence, it's true it does hit hard, but then it's outsped by a lot by not running Choice Scarf. Choice Scarf fixes its Speed but leaves it able to be walled by a lot more.

 

[The D-Match]

The D-Match The thing is, Typhlosion gets worn down so fast. Between Stealth Rock cutting its power immensely and its susceptibility to priority, Eruption becomes nothing. It's actually only 112 base power after Stealth Rock, and anything under this is the same as Fire Blast, so this whole Eruption argument is nothing. And about coverage, it literally can run what? Focus Blast / Eruption / Fire Blast / Hidden Power? It's not that much, and STAB Hyper Voice is great and hits a lot more than Typhlosion's coverage. While it adds a weakness, it adds an immunity, so don't forget this. Sure, they're both strong Special Attackers, but Typhlosion has lower Speed which is really sucky because it has to run Choice Scarf to outspeed a ton of things but wants power from Life Orb / Choice Specs. Typhlosion's really not as great in practice as on paper. I think if anything Pyroar deserves a bump and Typhlosion a drop / stay the same.

Well, that's why you run a spinner/defogger on your team. And Typhlosion has lower speed than Pyroar? By what, like, 6? And Typh can run extrasensory too. But yeah, it does get worn down easy, but then it can hit just as hard as Pyroar without using eruption. But that's just me. Have a nice day =D

 

[Skankovich]

Tbf those 6 points are important, it means Pyroar outspeeds the common base 100 and 105s, while Typh ties at best.

 

[soulgazer]

lol most Typhlosion don't even run Focus Blast unfixable, all it needs is Eruption, Fire Blast, Extrasensory, and Hidden Power Grass.

The main point about Typhlosion isnt only Eruption: it has Blaze too, which means that it can use Stealth Rock to its advantage and get below 33% health to spam even more powerful Fire Blasts, which Pyroar can't do.

Scarf Pyroar / Typhlosion are piss weak, idk why you guys think they are even good. Well, atleast Typhlosion got Eruption and Blaze Fire Blasts to clean!

Typhlosion should be A-

Tbf those 6 points are important, it means Pyroar outspeeds the common base 100 and 105s, while Typh ties at best.

what are the relevant base 101-105s Speed Pokemon? Mismagius, which needs a boost to OHKO Typhlosion after SR if it doesnt want to die to Fire Blast. Kadabra with Focus Sash can somewhat deal with Pyroar too. And then there's like Cryogonal, which most of the time shouldnt even try to revenge kill Typhlosion lol. And there's the monkeys, which iirc see close to no usages.

 

[The D-Match]

Tbf those 6 points are important, it means Pyroar outspeeds the common base 100 and 105s, while Typh ties at best.

Most people run scarf anyway, and, if you look at speed tiers than you'll see that nothing important outspeeds non-scarf Ty exept maybe Floatzel

 

[Yellow Cheese]

Imo Typh should actually move down to B or Stay at B+ at best, since it needs that Spin/Defog Support so much, and it has very few switchins. As a fire scarfer it is quite weak. SR destroys its main niche, and Specs is easy to play around with unless you dont know your shit. it is also completly limited to those items because of Eruption (dont run Typh without it pls).

Pyroar may not be able to use Blaze Fire blasts Soulgazer, but it is way less predicable since it can run support moves like Taunt or Will-o-wisp, which can make it a supporter and an offensive mon at the same time, this also gives Pyroar a better matchup against many stall teams, since it can prevent hazards or create residual damage to the opponent (and for that matter force out a Cleric, giving you a free switch / turn. idk how often you play against stall but getting that move is HUGE for offensive teams.) Im not saying Typh is bad but Pyroar just outpreforms it as a fast offensive Fire-type. And if you want a fire-type wallbreaker, Mortar is the way to go. it has amazing coverage, can go mixed, and is just way less predictable