Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

[Kyuzeth]

I think you meant to say "SD Mega Hera", not "SD Hera"

I will agree with you that mega Hera is a better wall breaker than Garchomp. He's also better than mega Garchomp, too.

When Heracross is discussed, Mega Heracross is always implied, not the base stage. The same applies to Medicham and Gardevoir. It's just easier and quicker to write down, hence why the Mega prefix is left off in most cases.

EDIT: Time for some more Mega insanity!

Mega Heracross (A) -> A+ | At first I wasn't really sure about this, but now I'm fully supporting moving this monster beetle up. Mega Heracross is just so fucking great right now, it's not even funny. Let's first look at that insanely high base 185 Attack stat and access to Swords Dance; the sheer damage output at +2 is enough to pretty much OHKO anything aside from Doublade and perhaps Bronzong. This massive bug has some amazing STABs to use that astronomical Attack with: Pin Missile is stronger, has more PP AND more accuracy than Megahorn with 5 hits thanks to Skill Link. On top of that, this move shits all over Substitutes. Close Combat is a self-explanatory move, pretty much the go-to STAB move for any physical Fighting-type. Rock Blast is all it needs in terms of coverage, as it strikes the Flying- and Ghost-types that resist its STABs. To add up to that, its bulk isn't all that bad either, since 80/115/105 defensive stats coupled with some really good resistances give it ample switch-in opportunities and with that Attack, it doesn't have a hard time forcing switches to set up a Swords Dance and wreck things.
Unfortunately, Mega Heracross is let down by its mediocre base 75 Speed, requiring Sticky Web support or a teammate that disposes of revenge killers. Its typing also leaves it weak to common types; that double weakness to Flying-type moves is especially jarring.
All in all, Mega Heracross has all the right stats and moves to be a successful powerhouse in current OU. It's bulky and massively powerful thanks to its Attack and movepool. Mega Heracross deserves to rise to A+.

Mega Manectric (B) -> B+/A- | Thunderdog's become a lot better with the recent tier changes: Offense is on the rise and Mega Manectric can deal with such teams quite well thanks to its amazing 135 Speed and Special Attack stats. Its Speed tier, Electric-type and Intimidate Ability make it one of the best offensive checks to Flying Spam, being the only Electric-type to outspeed Mega Aerodactyl and outright bring it down; the others are all outsped and OHKOed by either Stone Edge or Earthquake. These traits also make Mega Manectric the best Volt Switcher in the tier and, at that, a great scout that can soften up opposing physical attackers for an own teammate to set up on them. Its movepool gives it exactly all the coverage it needs: Thunderbolt is a strong, reliable STAB that is the bane of Flying Spam teams; Volt Switch makes it into the awesome scout that it is; Flamethrower and Overheat are two highly important moves on Mega Manectric, as they allow it to wall Mega Scizor and blaze past Ferrothorn, the latter of which is becoming all the more common these days. Lastly, Hidden Power Ice scores a clean 2HKO against Pokémon that resist its Electric/Fire core, notably Garchomp. On a final positive note, regular Manectric's Lightning Rod allows it to come in on a predicted Thunder Wave/Volt Switch and attain a +1 in Special Attack, turning Mega Manectric into a frightening sweeper.
Sadly, Mega Manectric is quite frail on the special side with 70/80/80 defenses and it often lacks the power to muscle past some Pokémon. Then again, Mega Manectric is not a sweeper, but a hole puncher and super-fast late-game cleaner. It's also hardwalled by Mega Charizard X, Black Kyurem, Tyranitar and Mega Tyranitar, but it can often just Intimidate them and get outta there with Volt Switch.
All in all, Mega Manectric is a highly solid Pokémon in OU at the moment, being the best Volt Switcher and one of the best scouts in the metagame. It may struggle against Stall teams, but with Stall becoming less viable and Offense on the rise, the metagame is definitely shifting in its favor. Therefore, Mega Manectric deserves to rise up to B+ or even A-.

 

[theV8man]

i also honestly think it's time for mega charizard x to go down to a+ rank. no one is denying it isn't a powerful choice with a lot of sets but with the ubiquity if sand offense in this meta it definitely struggles. there are heaps of roadblocks to it such as scarf landorus-t which is by far landorus-t's best set at the moment and typical stallmons like quagsire, hippowdon, defensive landorus-t, slowbro, and offensive checks like prankster thund, azumarill, heatran. its defensive set is nice but its very easily revengeable by things like garchomp / lum dnite and the fact that it is yet another stall mon ohkoed by landorus doesnt really help. jukain is right in that it is incredibly vulnerable to passive damage through stealth rock and sand and fblitz recoil until it can actually get into the range of like an azumarill aqua jet or a breloom mach punch.

Thank you. I've been trying to argue for this for like months. Maybe it used to be S rank, but in the current meta I can't really see it there. Like you say, typical stall mons wall it depending on its coverage, with the most common set being walled by Quagsire, Slowbro, etc. And then there is of course the Pokemon that can take a hit and hit back or cripple it even if it has one or two DD's up. It's bulky wisp set is good, but bulky things hate losing a quarter of their health on switch in, and with that set you're getting out-sped by any moderately fast stone-edge coverage on the enemy team. Amazing Pokemon, but both of its common sets have flaws and very few teams that I have made have ever been troubled by this thing. There are other, more uncommon sets, but SD still struggles against stall with Quagsire and is so easy to revenge, and roost + 3 attacks is just not getting past stall, although it seems like a good bulky attacker. I think most Pokemon in S outshine char x and it belongs in A+.

 

[Srn]

*sigh* okay, venu fails to ko, and dies to +2 EQ after rocks and one turn of sand, slowbro does too. Exca can actually setup on m-scizor and 2hko it with EQ, where sicizor fail to 3hko. Zapdos dies to plus 2 after rocks
Keldeo and lando are barely even cheks... The thing is, in many cases you either get a kill, or sd on the switch. And a lot of you so called checks either can't take a plus 2 hit, or is beat 1v1 such as ferro...


0 Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 149-176
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Scizor:
+2 252+ Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Scizor: 210-247
+2 252+ Atk Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 320-378 (83.3 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

I dunno why we're assuming a check has to take a +2 hit lol.
Listen we only take boosts into account when the main set the mon uses actually does use boosting moves. This simply isn't the case with excadrill; SD requires way too much support to efficiently use, its near impossible to actually set up safely seeing as the entire meta destroys you with coverage or just 2hko's with STABs, and its extremely difficult to actually clean a well-made team (which will pack atleast two of the checks I mentioned). There's a reason why SD isn't used as much and why Rapid Spin is used more; SD is just a sub-par set on excadrill. So my definition of a check in this scenario is be able to take 1 adamant LO attack at full health and do something back; all of the pokemon I listed can indeed do just that.
The most efficient and hardest hitting excadrill set you will ever really see is adamant LO with eq/iron head/rock slide/rapid spin, and that's really the worst you need to prepare for.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

I disagree with Mega Manectric moving up. For one, it's pretty difficult to Mega Evolve because it doesn't switch on anything safely due to its horrible bulk (70/60/60). Lightningrod is a cool ability, but Manectric doesn't come in on Rotom-W and Thundurus safely at all for example. You always have to either send in Manectric after something faints or predict around with double switches, and neither is convenient. I've used Mega Manectric quite a lot now on a new team I made and it makes for a good Intimidate core with Gyarados while taking out troublesome pokes like Ferrothorn and Azumarill, but I don't see it having much use outside of that.

Checking Flying-spam is a relative statement: if you mean that it can revenge kill Talonflame and Mega Pinsir then yes it does a great job. Sadly it's frail and has no recovery to switch in on either more than once. It's also relatively easy to deal with for most teams you see nowadays. Between Latias, T-Tar, Zard-X, Clefable, Sand Rush Excadrill, Mega Venusaur, SpDef Heatran most teams have a safe switchin to Mega Manectric. And before you say "it can Volt Switch out" it's usually not worth the trouble you went through to get Manectric in safely.

It's not a bad mon, but you have to build around it, it's not easy to use and quite frankly it doesn't put that much on the table for being a Mega. A fast Volt Switch is nice, but a slow one is better and you'll often find that on most teams Rotom-W is a better choice for checking Flying-spam and it leaves you with room for a better Mega. I also disagree that the metagame has changed in its favor. Sand Offense is a huge pain for Manectric and it's currently everywhere (although an Intimidate+VoltTurn core with Landy-T combats it pretty well). With three new Megas on the rise between Medicham, Heracross and Gardevoir it's pretty damn hard to justify using Manectric over Rotom-W who fulfills pretty much the same roles defensively and checks more stuff.

 

[WideTomato]

I dunno why we're assuming a check has to take a +2 hit lol.
Listen we only take boosts into account when the main set the mon uses actually does use boosting moves. This simply isn't the case with excadrill; SD requires way too much support to efficiently use, its near impossible to actually set up safely seeing as the entire meta destroys you with coverage or just 2hko's with STABs, and its extremely difficult to actually clean a well-made team (which will pack atleast two of the checks I mentioned). There's a reason why SD isn't used as much and why Rapid Spin is used more; SD is just a sub-par set on excadrill. So my definition of a check in this scenario is be able to take 1 adamant LO attack at full health and do something back; all of the pokemon I listed can indeed do just that.
The most efficient and hardest hitting excadrill set you will ever really see is adamant LO with eq/iron head/rock slide/rapid spin, and that's really the worst you need to prepare for.

Then i dont know why we even argue -____- my entire argument was build around that the sd set could sweep, as I said earlier: excadrill can sd on the switch into lando or rotom not that the sd set was superior to the rapid spin, because it is generally not. However it is still a good set, that can get past a lot of the checks and counters to the spin set.

 

[Kyuzeth]

I disagree with Mega Manectric moving up. For one, it's pretty difficult to Mega Evolve because it doesn't switch on anything safely due to its horrible bulk (70/60/60). Lightningrod is a cool ability, but Manectric doesn't come in on Rotom-W and Thundurus safely at all for example. You always have to either send in Manectric after something faints or predict around with double switches, and neither is convenient. I've used Mega Manectric quite a lot now on a new team I made and it makes for a good Intimidate core with Gyarados while taking out troublesome pokes like Ferrothorn and Azumarill, but I don't see it having much use outside of that.

Checking Flying-spam is a relative statement: if you mean that it can revenge kill Talonflame and Mega Pinsir then yes it does a great job. Sadly it's frail and has no recovery to switch in on either more than once. It's also relatively easy to deal with for most teams you see nowadays. Between Latias, T-Tar, Zard-X, Clefable, Sand Rush Excadrill, Mega Venusaur, SpDef Heatran most teams have a safe switchin to Mega Manectric. And before you say "it can Volt Switch out" it's usually not worth the trouble you went through to get Manectric in safely.

It's not a bad mon, but you have to build around it, it's not easy to use and quite frankly it doesn't put that much on the table for being a Mega. A fast Volt Switch is nice, but a slow one is better and you'll often find that on most teams Rotom-W is a better choice for checking Flying-spam and it leaves you with room for a better Mega. I also disagree that the metagame has changed in its favor. Sand Offense is a huge pain for Manectric and it's currently everywhere (although an Intimidate+VoltTurn core with Landy-T combats it pretty well). With three new Megas on the rise between Medicham, Heracross and Gardevoir it's pretty damn hard to justify using Manectric over Rotom-W who fulfills pretty much the same roles defensively and checks more stuff.

Apologies, I seem to have hit Tab for the millionth time.

1. Terrible bulk doesn't deter Greninja from being A+ Rank and that Pokémon has a shittier natural defensive typing than Mega Manectric. Of course there's the risk of mispredicting, but do keep in mind that the Electric-type move can be predicted rightly, allowing Manectric to come in and suddenly take the sweeping route.

2. Yes, it's frail, but so is Thundurus-I. Most teams do have a safe answer to it, but among the Pokémon you've mentioned, Tyranitar, Excadrill and Mega Charizard X certainly don't appreciate having their precious Attack dropped. I should also mention Volt Switch is a momentum-creating and -keeping move.

3. You fail to realize that Mega Manectric and Rotom-W perform vastly different roles; the former is a scout, while the latter is a pivot. Yes, Mega Manectric isn't the sturdiest, but Rotom-W has been having a really difficult time with the rising Mega wallbreakers and can't take repeated onslaughts because of its shitty 50 HP stat. Rotom-W can't come in on Mega Pinsir, since it's slower and gets 2HKOed. Regular Manectric is faster and can OHKO. The fact that it can single-handedly outspeed and OHKO Flying Spam Pokémon is a feat no other Electric-type can accomplish. Since pretty much all of these Pokémon are physical, they don't like having their Attack lowered. Mega Manectric and Rotom-W don't fulfill the same niches, but rather far different ones.

 

[alexwolf]

Here is my opinion:

Raikou stays in B: Sand offense being everywhere make Raikou's life miserable, as it can't do shit against all of Excadrill, Ferrothorn, and Tyranitar, and can't even use Volt Switch. Raikou should stay in B.

Mega Manectric to B+: Flamethrower means that Excadrill and Ferrothorn are not counters anymore, so Mega Manectric can still pull its weight even against sand teams with some prediction, making it an a better option than Raikou. B+ for Mega Manectric.

Mega Tyranitar to A: There are three reasons i think Mega Tyranitar should drop and those are Sand Rush Excadrill, Ferrothorn, and Scarf Lando-T. All those Pokemon check or counter Mega Tyranitar preventing it from consistently sweeping and all those Pokemon have become even more popular over the last month, which is why i think Mega Tyranitar should drop. Slowbro getting more popular doesn't help either, as it walls the common Mega Tyranitar moveset.

Lucario to B-: Even though Lucario benefited from Aegislash's absence, it didn't benefit from the rise in popularity of Sand Rush Excadrill, Terrakion, and Scarf Landorus-T, all of which make it really hard for Lucario to clean properly, even against offensive teams. Slowbro's increased popularity also hurts Lucario a bit, as it means it can't break through stall teams as well as it could before.

Everything else has either been talked about sufficiently or i am on the fence about, so i don't have to add anything else.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

1. Terrible bulk doesn't deter Greninja from being A+ Rank and that Pokémon has a shittier natural defensive typing than Mega Manectric. Of course there's the risk of mispredicting, but do keep in mind that the Electric-type move can be predicted rightly, allowing Manectric to come in and suddenly take the sweeping route.

2. Yes, it's frail, but so is Thundurus-I. Most teams do have a safe answer to it, but among the Pokémon you've mentioned, Tyranitar, Excadrill and Mega Charizard X certainly don't appreciate having their precious Attack dropped. I should also mention Volt Switch is a momentum-creating and -keeping move.

3. You fail to realize that Mega Manectric and Rotom-W perform vastly different roles; the former is a scout, while the latter is a pivot. Yes, Mega Manectric isn't the sturdiest, but Rotom-W has been having a really difficult time with the rising Mega wallbreakers and can't take repeated onslaughts because of its shitty 50 HP stat. Rotom-W can't come in on Mega Pinsir, since it's slower and gets 2HKOed. Regular Manectric is faster and can OHKO. The fact that it can single-handedly outspeed and OHKO Flying Spam Pokémon is a feat no other Electric-type can accomplish. Since pretty much all of these Pokémon are physical, they don't like having their Attack lowered. Mega Manectric and Rotom-W don't fulfill the same niches, but rather far different ones.

1. Greninja has much more raw power with Protean and Life Orb as well as a wide array of coverage moves. Also doesn't require a Mega slot, so you can't really compare them. I can't recall ever getting a Lightningrod boost with Manectric, let alone ever sweeping with it afterwards. The few times I tried it Rotom-W usually just burned me or blasted me with Hydro Pump. Might just be me playing Manectric poorly, but it's usually not worth risking taking a huge hit to bring it in. Not to mention you want to Mega Evolve Manectric asap so you can benefit from its speed and Intimidate, at which point Lightningrod is irrelevant.

2. Thundurus-I at least has a Ground immunity to get switchins as well as a Bug and Fighting resistance... Tyranitar is usually going to switch in on Manectric so Intimidate is quite irrelevant, and then you're Pursuit bait. If you Volt Switch out good for you, now you have to find a way to bring Manectric in again safely after taking SR damage and doing minimal damage with Volt Switch.

3. I never said Mega Manectric and Rotom-W had the same role, just that they check mostly the same mons. Rotom-W doesn't get 2HKO'd by Mega Pinsir what are you on about? .-.

252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 106-125 (34.8 - 41.1%) -- 65.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Rotom-W can also burn the switchin, while Mega Manectric is forced to Volt Switch/T-Bolt. Yeah Rotom-W can't take hits from Mega Medicham/Heracross/Gardevoir. Is it supposed to? .-. Mega Manectric can't switch in reliably on Mega Pinsir at all, because either EQ or Close Combat will hurt. Either way Rotom-W covers a much larger amount of threats virtue of its typing, ability and Will-o-Wisp. Mega Manectrics only niche is fast Volt Switch + Intimidate. It's fine in B.

 

[MilkyWay]

I'm not really sure where I stand on Charizard X being A+ or S, however, if it does move down I think a few other things should move down as well.
If Charizard X moves down to A+ here's what else needs to move down as well...

1. Keldeo needs to go back to A+ as well
I'm just gonna quote myself here since ive already talked about this and dont want to repeat the same things over and over

Keldeo isn't as good as other S rank pokemon and lacks versatility. It is over reliant on choice items, which in tandem with it's lack of versatility make it very predictable.
While Keldeo is a great pokemon, it is undoubtedly the worst S rank mon. In comparison, it isnt nearly as versatile as the other S rank pokemon. It's two most common sets are both choice sets with little variety between the moves. The other (less common) sets it runs are expert belt and calm mind. These sets arent nearly as good as the choice sets and dont really get past any checks and counters to the more choice sets as well, unlike other S rank pokemon, such as Mega Mawile. Mega Mawile has only two sets yet it is far more versatile than Keldeo as both sets have a different list of checks and counters, while Keldeo's sets all struggle with the same set of checks and counters. Of course, Keldeo can change its coverage move to adapt to hitting these checks and counters, but its not that easy. All of Keldeo's coverage moves are piss weak and cant reliably 2hko these checks and counters without choice specs. With choice specs keldeo has to predict the switch in correctly and if it is wrong it is locked into a low base power move. Even if it is right the checks and counters could switch out, leaving Keldeo locked into its low base power coverage move. Keldeo has this problem on all of its sets as well. As good as it's choice sets are, being locked into one single move isnt ever a good thing. It is forced to predict correctly or lose a ton of momentum. Lets say Keldeo KO's something with a water move. Now Ferrothorn can come in and set up stealth rock or terrorize switch ins with Leech Seed + Protect. Or Ferrothorn could predict correctly and switch in, or it could switch in after Keldeo damages something with a water move. Obviously Ferrothorn isnt all that can take advantage of a Keldeo locked into a move either, it was just my example. The Mega wall breakers can all come in on secret sword and wreck shit too as well as anything that resists the move Keldeo is locked into. However, the most important reason why Keldeo should drop is that the metagame is slowly shifting away from it. With the banning of the Deos and now Aegislash the metagame has shifted drastically. Bisharp, whom Keldeo was offenses' best answer to, has gone down in usage. With the lack of Aegislash and hazards birdspam has gotten a lot better too. Pinsir is now free to run Close Combat and Staraptor is that much better at wall breaking, both of which greatly bolster birdspam's popularity as a playstyle. After the banning of Aegislash the Lati@s have improved a lot and they are both some of the best switch ins to Keldeo. Starmie is a lot more viable too and the bulky set with recover, reflect type, and natural cure is gaining in popularity which makes Keldeo's life that much worse. Assault Vest Azumarill, one of the best glues to offensive teams, is now better and more common than ever as it is no longer cock blocked by Kings Shield. And the icing on top of the cake (although it doesnt apply currently) is that Mega Mawile is going to be banned. Keldeo is one of offenses best checks to that monster because it resists Sucker Punch and can outspeed and OHKO with specs Hydro Pump (I think). Due to this combined with Keldeo's lack of versatility and dependency on choice items are why it should go back to A+ and why it probably shouldnt have gone to S to begin with.

Now that Mega Mawile has been banned the Lati@s are now even better and more common than ever, which is bad news for Keldeo as they are some of Keldeo's best checks/counters. Starmie has gotten even better too and the bulkier sets can reliably check Keldeo throughout the match. Assault Vest Azumarill's been increasing in popularity as of recently too and is another great answer to Keldeo. Finally, Mega Mawile is gone so Keldeo lost its niche as checking one of the most dangerous forces in the meta for offensive teams as it is one of the few things that resists sucker punch.

In short, I think Keldeo should go to A+ regardless, but under no conditions should Mega Charizard X go to A+ and Keldeo stay in S. Mega Charizard X is simply better and more versatile than Keldeo (I'm sure others can back me up on this if needed), and shouldnt be a rank lower than Keldeo.

2. Mega Tyranitar should drop to A
Too be honest Ive never really been a fan of Mega Tyranitar and wanted it to drop for awhile, however basically nobody else agreed with me until now. It has one viable set and many common checks and counters that are on the rise such as Sand Rush Excadrill, Scarf Landorus-T, and Ferrothorn. It faces stiff competition from Mega Gyarados and Mega Charizard X, both of whom are also bulky Dragon Dancers that take up a mega slot as well. Being widely considered the least effective of the three (Ill elaborate on this if needed but people generally agree so i dont want to waste my time) it shouldnt be in the same rank as the other two, especially Mega Charizard X. Therefore, Mega Tyranitar should drop to A.

3. Landorus could drop to A+
Ive never really had a problem with Landorus, ever actually (still mad about that gen v ban :p). I understand that it apparently destroys stall, however, it has plenty of good checks and counters that stall teams can use (Sp. Def Gliscor, Cresselia, Mew, AV Tornadus-T, Lati@s, Charizard Y, Zapdos, Sp. def Celebi, AV Slowbro (ive seen it on stall before), Sp.Def Rotom-W, or even stuff like Garchomp if they have too because it can take a hit and outspeed Landorus. Of course I'm not arguing Landorus's effectiveness against stall, I'm just saying its not some sort of god that 6-0s stall and makes stall unviable like people make it out to be. But the main reason I want Landorus to drop is because its not nearly as effective against the tiers most common playstyle, offense. Obviously it isnt as bad as Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham, and Mega Gardevoire are against offense, but it isnt amazing either. 101 speed isnt fantastic anymore and is outspeed by many member of offense. Landorus doesnt exactly have the greatest bulk so it really cant take a hit from many of the things that outspeed it either and due to this it often loses momentum for it's team. Finally, using Landorus also means you cant use Landorus-T, who checks a large amount of things for offensive teams and has an amazing scarf set. Despite all of this I could still see Landorus in S, as long as Charizard X stayed there too, however i wouldnt mind moving it down to A+ anyways.

4. Clefable could drop to A
As long as Charizard X stays in S, I wouldnt mind seeing Clefable in A+. Unfortunately though, being one of the weaker members of A+, I think it would have to move down if Charizard X did too. Despite having a good typing, abilities, and many viable sets, Clefable's raw stats often leave much to be desired and many top tier threats can usually muscle through it even when attacking whatever defense stat Clefable invested in. As good and annoying as Clefable may be, I just cannot see it in the same rank as Charizard X.


5. The Mega wall breakers should remain in A
Regardless of where Charizard X goes these guys should stay in A. I am really tired of typing so Im going to make this quick, they are simply too ineffective against offense and also face competition from other stall breakers such as Mew and Landorus who dont take up a mega slot. Putting them in the same rank (if Charizard X drops to A+) would be wrong and terribly inaccurate.

I'm not saying all of these should happen, only if Charizard X drops down to A+ should some occurr. If Charizard X stays in S, I'd like Clefable to remain in A+ and Id like Landorus to drop to A+ anyways, although I doubt many will agree here so I guess it can stay in S. However, the Mega wall breakers should stay in A regardless, Mega Tyranitar should go to A, and Keldeo should drop to A+. But, if Charizard X drops to A+, all of the changes I mentioned should happen, but maybe with the exception of Clefable and I suppose I could live with Landorus being a rank higher than Charizard X if I absoltuely had to.

 

[Kyuzeth]

1. Greninja has much more raw power with Protean and Life Orb as well as a wide array of coverage moves. Also doesn't require a Mega slot, so you can't really compare them. I can't recall ever getting a Lightningrod boost with Manectric, let alone ever sweeping with it afterwards. The few times I tried it Rotom-W usually just burned me or blasted me with Hydro Pump. Might just be me playing Manectric poorly, but it's usually not worth risking taking a huge hit to bring it in. Not to mention you want to Mega Evolve Manectric asap so you can benefit from its speed and Intimidate, at which point Lightningrod is irrelevant.

2. Thundurus-I at least has a Ground immunity to get switchins as well as a Bug and Fighting resistance... Tyranitar is usually going to switch in on Manectric so Intimidate is quite irrelevant, and then you're Pursuit bait. If you Volt Switch out good for you, now you have to find a way to bring Manectric in again safely after taking SR damage and doing minimal damage with Volt Switch.

3. I never said Mega Manectric and Rotom-W had the same role, just that they check mostly the same mons. Rotom-W doesn't get 2HKO'd by Mega Pinsir what are you on about? .-.

252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 106-125 (34.8 - 41.1%) -- 65.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Rotom-W can also burn the switchin, while Mega Manectric is forced to Volt Switch/T-Bolt. Yeah Rotom-W can't take hits from Mega Medicham/Heracross/Gardevoir. Is it supposed to? .-. Mega Manectric can't switch in reliably on Mega Pinsir at all, because either EQ or Close Combat will hurt. Either way Rotom-W covers a much larger amount of threats virtue of its typing, ability and Will-o-Wisp. Mega Manectrics only niche is fast Volt Switch + Intimidate. It's fine in B.

1. Mega Manectric really doesn't care much for burns, being a special attacker. It switches really often and fast Volt Switches prevent it from taking burn damage, which is a big plus. Hydro Pump hurts, yeah, but Manectric is typically brought in after a slow U-turn or after something on your team's fainted. Greninja's really strong and fast, but it's seriously fucking frail and can't switch in on anything. That's what it has in common with Mega Manectric. For that matter, frailty is a problem for many Pokémon, but that doesn't deter any of them from being in the high ranks. Mega Manectric has good physical bulk with Intimidate.

2. Thundurus-I is weak to SR, which is pretty problematic. If switching in on Mega Manectric, the dog can just Volt Switch outta there and go to Scarf Lando-T, who happens to be an excellent teammate for it.

3. Rotom-W gets 2HKOed by a +2 Mega Pinsir's Close Combat or Return and doesn't like coming in on a predicted pre-Mega Mold Breaker Earthquake, in case that's still run.

Rotom-W is a defensive Pokémon and as such, it should be able to stomach strong moves. Unfortunately, its bulk is being overrated massively and it has trouble with the new wallbreakers. By the way, Mega Manectric can definitely switch in on Mega Pinsir, since an unboosted Earthquake is only a 2HKO and it more commonly runs Close Combat, which only has a 0.4% chance to 2HKO. Regular Manectric can't, but Mega Manectric can definitely switch in on Mega Pinsir and fry it with Thunderbolt. Heck, even Volt Switch has a 68.8% chance to OHKO. You're far underselling Mega Manectric's qualities: it's a super-fast Volt Switcher with Intimidate that can effectively punch holes early- and mid-game, as well as clean late-game. As alexwolf pointed out, it's not terrible against Sand Offense with proper prediction thanks to Flamethrower/Overheat to cook Excadrill and Ferrothorn. It should rise to B+.

 

[Celticpride]

I am not against Mega Tyranitar dropping, but it does have ways to get by almost all it's checks and counters. If Ferrothorn really becomes a pain, Mega Godzilla can run Fire Punch over another move to get by it. Fire Punch isn't useless outside of Ferro either, it's a more consistent way to hit Mega Scizor and Skarm as well. Slowbro doesn't like +1 STAB Crunch, it nearly OHKO's after SR (and can finish the job at +1 after a Scald burn). Tyranitar also survives Lando-T's 252 EV Adamant Earthquake, Lando needs chip damage to get past it (I, like some others probably have, assumed EQ would OHKO). It can even run Aqua Tail to get by Hippo, even though no one in their right mind would do that. My point is Mega Tyranitar can move down now, but we should keep it on a relatively short leash because the potential is there for adaptability.

 

[AM]

I am not against Mega Tyranitar dropping, but it does have ways to get by almost all it's checks and counters. If Ferrothorn really becomes a pain, Mega Godzilla can run Fire Punch over another move to get by it. Fire Punch isn't useless outside of Ferro either, it's a more consistent way to hit Mega Scizor and Skarm as well. Slowbro doesn't like +1 STAB Crunch, it nearly OHKO's after SR (and can finish the job at +1 after a Scald burn). Tyranitar also survives Lando-T's 252 EV Adamant Earthquake, Lando needs chip damage to get past it (I, like some others probably have, assumed EQ would OHKO). It can even run Aqua Tail to get by Hippo, even though no one in their right mind would do that. My point is Mega Tyranitar can move down now, but we should keep it on a relatively short leash because the potential is there for adaptability.

The only issue which is actually pointed out by reading your response, is that it realistically can't hit all of them at once or at least sufficiently enough that it warrants an A+ ranking. The caliber of revenge killers has increased as well and that's also another issue that M-Ttar has, considering that even at +1 most scarfed users will be able to go before M-Ttar. Besides obvious flaws M-Ttar generally needs more support which would warrant the rank of A.

 

[Hydrium]

Suicune B+ -> A-
I support a Suicune promotion as he is a bulky water type with huge sweep potential, the only thing I see holding this back from going any higher is a shallow movepool (But CroCune has been rock solid since forever) and a meta that is increasingly becoming hostile to water types due to how much they are starting to rampage. However like someone said before, if you let this guy go he is going to go all the way regardless of your protests.

 

[Celticpride]

The only issue which is actually pointed out by reading your response, is that it realistically can't hit all of them at once or at least sufficiently enough that it warrants an A+ ranking. The caliber of revenge killers has increased as well and that's also another issue that M-Ttar has, considering that even at +1 most scarfed users will be able to go before M-Ttar. Besides obvious flaws M-Ttar generally needs more support which would warrant the rank of A.

I understand it can't run everything, I'm just pointing out it has ways of getting by most things due to a wide movepool. It should drop, but it could turn into a situation of "what coverage move is it carrying?" as the meta shifts. That may merit it rising again at a later point.

 

[Scar Tissue]

Mega Aerodactyl to B+ needs to be a thing. It fairs well against any play style with its super fast taunt and roost, ability to run Adamant/bulk because of its troll level speed, and it has amazing coverage with which to revenge kill the likes of Greninja, Keldeo, the lati's, Landorus, Thundurus not running t-wave; and even that can be healed off as Aero OKHO's. Checking the likes of Talonflame and Pinsir is also a huge bonus. B is definitely selling it short.

 

[Machi]

Mega Manectric to B+: Flamethrower means that Excadrill and Ferrothorn are not counters anymore, so Mega Manectric can still pull its weight even against sand teams with some prediction, making it an a better option than Raikou. B+ for Mega Manectric.

One thing I want to add about MManetric is that he makes a wonderful pressure against defoggers in general as he is capable of threatening popular ones like Mandibuzz, Scizor, or Gliscor with the appropriate move, while with proper prediction can also do a number against Excadrill as well as being able to threaten Starmie. While still being able to do a fair amount of damage against Zapdos. I find this to be another plus to using MManetric.

 

[alexwolf]

I am not against Mega Tyranitar dropping, but it does have ways to get by almost all it's checks and counters. If Ferrothorn really becomes a pain, Mega Godzilla can run Fire Punch over another move to get by it. Fire Punch isn't useless outside of Ferro either, it's a more consistent way to hit Mega Scizor and Skarm as well. Slowbro doesn't like +1 STAB Crunch, it nearly OHKO's after SR (and can finish the job at +1 after a Scald burn). Tyranitar also survives Lando-T's 252 EV Adamant Earthquake, Lando needs chip damage to get past it (I, like some others probably have, assumed EQ would OHKO). It can even run Aqua Tail to get by Hippo, even though no one in their right mind would do that. My point is Mega Tyranitar can move down now, but we should keep it on a relatively short leash because the potential is there for adaptability.

Scarf Landorus-T runs Superpower to OHKO Mega Tyranitar and Mega Gyarados.

 

[Srn]

Scarf Landorus-T runs Superpower to OHKO Mega Tyranitar and Mega Gyarados.

Its also useful for SD balloon Exca which just sets up on it otherwise :>

Anyways clefable drop is kind of absurd. Its a wincon, a mega heracross, dragons, fighting check (and can even check ninja and Lo thundurus with only 96 evs in sdef and a calm nature), it can set rocks, pass wishes, heal status, pressure stall with Magic Guard CM stored power, it does so much so well its unreal. Its one of the strongest mons in A+ (I personally think mega gyara and mega tar are the weakest :{|} sue me) because it can check so many pokemon and do so many roles efficiently. Clefable can really find its place on nearly any kind of team and I don't see it dropping until ORAS.

 

[dadoux]

4. Clefable could drop to A
As long as Charizard X stays in S, I wouldnt mind seeing Clefable in A+. Unfortunately though, being one of the weaker members of A+, I think it would have to move down if Charizard X did too. Despite having a good typing, abilities, and many viable sets, Clefable's raw stats often leave much to be desired and many top tier threats can usually muscle through it even when attacking whatever defense stat Clefable invested in..

One of the weaker members of A+? You mean the awesome mon you can easily fit on a team and that could be S rank because of how good it is?

 

[Dark T]

Mega-Tyranitar should remain A+
It has tremendous Bulk. 100-150-120 (180 in Sandstorm) It can take a good hit in order to use Dragon Dance. Once it has a boost it is able to tear through many enemy threats. It is second best to only Charizard-X as a Dragon Dancer in OU.

Things he can tank in order to set up a Dragon Dance:
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 229-273 (67.1 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 280-332 (82.1 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 258-306 (75.6 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 265-312 (77.7 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 146-174 (42.8 - 51%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 230-272 (67.4 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Things he can OHKO after a Dragon Dance:
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 740-872 (192.2 - 226.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 392-464 (111.3 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 1536-1812 (517.1 - 610.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Garchomp: 384-452 (91.4 - 107.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 480-568 (136.3 - 161.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 424-500 (131.2 - 154.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 510-602 (169.4 - 200%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 560-662 (185.4 - 219.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Gardevoir: 321-378 (115.8 - 136.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Medicham: 265-313 (101.5 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

etc.

I think this Pokemon is Perfect in A+

 

[Gloating]

One of the weaker members of A+? You mean the awesome mon you can easily fit on a team and that could be S rank because of how good it is?

Just because it's easy to fit on a team doesn't make it S-rank. Rotom-W is also easy to fit on a team, doesn't mean it's S-rank. Clefable has a ton of flaws and I don't really know why people are suggesting it for S-rank.

It's slow.
Wishes it could run both Unaware and Magic Guard.
Doesn't hit hard at all without a couple of boosts.
Has the problem that if it goes physically def it can't take special attacks that great and if it goes spdef it can't take physical hits as well.

Clefable is fine in A+ though I wouldn't be opposed to it dropping further.

 

[blaargathon]

Clefable is not S Rank at all. If anything I would say it could be dropped a rank. Stop kidding yourselves. Gengar literally murders it with Sludge Wave, even at +2 Sp.D... unless you're running special defense, in which case: lolscizor.

EDIT: Good work guys, I was about to write a long discussion about why Gengar is so awesome and deserves to be A Rank but you already handled that. +1 cookies for all of you.

 

[BAKAResh]

Clefable is not S Rank at all. If anything I would say it could be dropped a rank. Stop kidding yourselves. Gengar literally murders it with Sludge Wave, even at +2 Sp.D... unless you're running special defense, in which case: lolscizor.

EDIT: Good work guys, I was about to write a long discussion about why Gengar is so awesome and deserves to be A Rank but you already handled that. +1 cookies for all of you.

Uh..
148 SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. +2 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- 13% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. +2 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 140-168 (35.5 - 42.6%) -- 91.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gengar Sludge Wave vs. +2 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 230-272 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(LOL only if you are Specs Modest Gengar then you can reliably 2HKO. But let's get real man who runs Modest Specs Gengar?)

252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 254-302 (64.4 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 304-360 (108.1 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Clefable Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 248-296 (88.2 - 105.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Idk about you. But Clef seems like it will eat up Gengar's Sludge Wave at +2 (LOL just refuting your comment that's all) and Scizor won't switch into Clef unless Clef is at less than 70%.

Edit: With rocks it's a guaranteed OHKO with Flamethrower on Scizor and it's not even difficult to set up with Clef.

 

[blaargathon]

Uh..
148 SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. +2 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- 13% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. +2 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 140-168 (35.5 - 42.6%) -- 91.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gengar Sludge Wave vs. +2 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 230-272 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(LOL only if you are Specs Modest Gengar then you can reliably 2HKO. But let's get real man who runs Modest Specs Gengar?)

252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 254-302 (64.4 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 304-360 (108.1 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Clefable Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 248-296 (88.2 - 105.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Idk about you. But Clef seems like it will eat up Gengar's Sludge Wave at +2 (LOL just refuting your comment that's all) and Scizor won't switch into Clef unless Clef is at less than 70%.

Edit: With rocks it's a guaranteed OHKO with Flamethrower on Scizor and it's not even difficult to set up with Clef.

Hmm. Maybe you're right. I guess the Clefables I fought were max Def. Regardless, Clef in S is just a shitty idea.

 

[BAKAResh]

Hmm. Maybe you're right. I guess the Clefables I fought were max Def. Regardless, Clef in S is just a shitty idea.

Definitely. Clef is one of those pokes you use as a glue and you wish it got everything it needed. 4MSS plagues this poke although it has a wide array of functions it can provide the team with. I think Clefable sits really comfortably at A+ and it shouldn't move at all.