Is there any reason given why (several) pokemon in the anime (and in some games) use weird and, to some degree, utterly unreasonable movesets?
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
SPOILERS! Mysteries and Conspiracies of Pokemon
- Thread starter stage7_4
- Start date
Arceus
And yet most players think Arceus is god, but it is only "said." Some games get even more ambiguous and distance themselves personally from what is "said"
Sort of like they kind of want to admit that this is only a legend that people say but not actually the truth. "oh did you read that somewhere? yeah people say that over in Sinnoh. You don't have to take them too seriously though"
Anyway, If we can pick and choose about the things that are being "said" then let's all please, right now, buckle down and prove that Arceus is not the god of Pokemon in Pokemon canon. (cause I fully believe it isn't and get irritated by people who think it is)
Well ... based on what´s been shown (games, anime, movies) ... Arceus is a creator god (more like an world creating cosmic horror, though, like quite a few major deities in hindu mythology) ... but the (or a) creator god isn´t necessarily the most powerful and/or most important being within their respective multiverse (if it has something resembeling a supreme deity to begin with).
But yeah ... the whole creation story is kinda fishy anyway.
But yeah ... the whole creation story is kinda fishy anyway.
Last edited:
I wondered when the "multiple legendaries" thing was going to pop up. I have two theories on it, but this is all fanon and unsupported so don't take them too seriously.
1. They are the same pokemon, but different avatars. Basically, collectively they represent one species (like Arceus or Palkia) but there's a bunch of avatars they manifest as in different places and different times. This theory starts to lose traction with the man-made ones like Mewtwo or Genesect, but I still like it.
2. There's only one, per dimension. This one was ties with the Entralink (that place connected to the Dreaw World in Black and White that also let you go into your friends games, albeit with limited interaction). Basically, legendaries are all singular and rare pokemon, but that's only from the perspective of the prime dimension they hail from. There are other worlds, each with there own version of that legendary. The player character always exists in a dimension where they haven't been caught yet, but there are ways to jump across dimensions (trading, dream world, dream radar, entralink, etc). This means that you can have more than one Zapdos or Mewtwo, because the copies are other dimensional versions of them.
In-game they've been pretty good too, and most illegal cases are either later justified or special promotions. But then there's Lance the cheater and his amazing Barrier Dragonite. Serves him right to be curbstomped by a Venomoth in Twitch.
My theory is that they learned the moves from secret move tutors that the player doesn't know about or have access to.
1. They are the same pokemon, but different avatars. Basically, collectively they represent one species (like Arceus or Palkia) but there's a bunch of avatars they manifest as in different places and different times. This theory starts to lose traction with the man-made ones like Mewtwo or Genesect, but I still like it.
2. There's only one, per dimension. This one was ties with the Entralink (that place connected to the Dreaw World in Black and White that also let you go into your friends games, albeit with limited interaction). Basically, legendaries are all singular and rare pokemon, but that's only from the perspective of the prime dimension they hail from. There are other worlds, each with there own version of that legendary. The player character always exists in a dimension where they haven't been caught yet, but there are ways to jump across dimensions (trading, dream world, dream radar, entralink, etc). This means that you can have more than one Zapdos or Mewtwo, because the copies are other dimensional versions of them.
Oddly, off the top of my head I can't think of any illegal anime movesets. Plenty of 4+ moves or really out-there uses for them (i.e. thunder-armor), but not illegal. Not doubting that there are, just can't think of any.
In-game they've been pretty good too, and most illegal cases are either later justified or special promotions. But then there's Lance the cheater and his amazing Barrier Dragonite. Serves him right to be curbstomped by a Venomoth in Twitch.
My theory is that they learned the moves from secret move tutors that the player doesn't know about or have access to.
I'm not saying that it isn't the truth or it is the truth. I just wanted to point out that some Pokédex entries are about legends which may or may not be true. The thing about the egg and creation with Arceus has at least a grain of truth thanks to the Sinjoh Ruins event since we see Arceus create an egg not unsimilar to the Sinnoh creation myth. So who knows? Also, I'm not saying that legends about Pokémon don't belong in the dex for two reasons:
1) World building. That's one of the main purposes of the Pokédex - elaborate and expand the world of the game.
2) Legends are important. Just because they may not be fact doesn't mean they should be ignored.
In response to the legendary thing; i think there are some legendaries which have more than 1 of a kind, whilst others just have 1 (this is from anime knowledge):
Mewtwo, there is obviously 1, whilst mew, there might be more (if you think about the fossil team rocket found to clone, and the one in lucario movie). There are more than 1 legendary birds; the ones on the island in lugia movies and some wondering round (battle factory guy)
Ho-oh/entei/suicune/raikou have more than one as they are all shown to be shiny. Lugia has an egg, not sure about celebii
Regi's ofc more than one lucario movie and brandons (all it would make sense to be 1 because they are regigigas's 'keys). In rs anime, with team aqua/magma they talk about catching 'a' kyogre/groudon which leads me to believe there are more than 1. There are more than one lati's: guarding the city in the movie + nurse joys and the sinnoh guys one. More than one deoxys ofc from the movie, whilst jirachi is supposed to awake every 1000 years and we have seen at least 2.
Whilst sinnoh, i think there are only one dailga/palkia/giranta/arceus, as they each control their own dimension. Same with lake guardians, there are only 1 lake to control. Too many sinnoh legendaries: 1 darkrai/cress/regigigas. Only one manaphy at a time, unlimited phione, multiple heatran/shaymin.
Most of the unova's also have one (not genesect ofc): im not too sure because they mostly only appear in movies once.
You can usually tell if the pokemon is said with an 'a' before its name to show its one of many, but other wise its just logic.
With illegal movesets, explain earthquake lanturn on a vr trainer in emerald ;).
Unbeliever!!
The thing is that Arceus has more going for its legend being true than a simple throwaway line in a Pokedex entry, unlike Entei. Arceus has many godlike characteristics. It has the absolute highest stat base total for a Pokemon (excluding megas). In HeartGold and SoulSilver it creates an egg containing either of Palkia, Dialga, or Giratina, out of nothing. These Pokemon are already established to have deity-level power over the fundamental aspects of the universe like space and time. The area you face it is called the Hall of Origin and definitely has a beginning of time vibe to it.
On the other hand, there is not really a way that a volcano can create an Entei without some supernatural intervention. Entei's mythos is far more connected to Ho-Oh's anyway, which has to do with representing the fire that burned down the brass tower and not much to do with volcanoes. Of course, you cannot prove a negative, so it is possible that the legend is true somehow, but you are kidding yourself if you don't think there is far less evidence for it than evidence of Arceus being a creator.
On the other hand, there is not really a way that a volcano can create an Entei without some supernatural intervention. Entei's mythos is far more connected to Ho-Oh's anyway, which has to do with representing the fire that burned down the brass tower and not much to do with volcanoes. Of course, you cannot prove a negative, so it is possible that the legend is true somehow, but you are kidding yourself if you don't think there is far less evidence for it than evidence of Arceus being a creator.
Mew is clearly the god of Pokémon. It's so cute that it has to be.
Yes, Arceus creates an egg out of "nothing". But was it really nothing? The Sinjoh Ruins are directly related to the Ruins of Alph. The Unown are pitifully weak alone, but as we saw in M03, a big enough swarm can be quite powerful indeed - enough to effectively create an Entei. If almost all of the Unown from the Ruins of Alph worked together while directed by Arceus, they surely could create one of the Spacetime Trio. There's a reason the Azure Flute is a reworked Unown cry. Which leads me to wonder - what is the Unown Dimension? Perhaps a primordial dimension that existed even before Arceus? Are the Unown really the gods?
Yes, Arceus creates an egg out of "nothing". But was it really nothing? The Sinjoh Ruins are directly related to the Ruins of Alph. The Unown are pitifully weak alone, but as we saw in M03, a big enough swarm can be quite powerful indeed - enough to effectively create an Entei. If almost all of the Unown from the Ruins of Alph worked together while directed by Arceus, they surely could create one of the Spacetime Trio. There's a reason the Azure Flute is a reworked Unown cry. Which leads me to wonder - what is the Unown Dimension? Perhaps a primordial dimension that existed even before Arceus? Are the Unown really the gods?
There are a ton of contradictions in pokemon, like for example all pokemon descended from mew, but arceus also created all pokemon. And if arceus is a god, he sucks at it. I mean he gets captured in a tiny capsule and then is forced to do the bidding of a 10ish year old boy. Fail. I don't think arceus could possibly be a god, it just dosent make sense, especially sense some mega pokemon have higher base stat totals (mewtwo X, Y, and technically tyranitar if you take into account the sp.def boost of sandstream).
And as for the unknown being gods it is a possibility, but I wouldn't base a whole lot off of the anime/movies because pokemon seem to have inconsistent levels of power that don't correspond to the games, like the fact that pikachu can ohko high level ground types with thunderbolt, then lose to starters that haven't even battled before! I think that arceus and unown are definetly linked due to that sinjoh runes thing though. Maybe unown are deites of a sort.
And as for the unknown being gods it is a possibility, but I wouldn't base a whole lot off of the anime/movies because pokemon seem to have inconsistent levels of power that don't correspond to the games, like the fact that pikachu can ohko high level ground types with thunderbolt, then lose to starters that haven't even battled before! I think that arceus and unown are definetly linked due to that sinjoh runes thing though. Maybe unown are deites of a sort.
I don't think this is a contradiction, Arceus created the universe but Mew is the ancestor of all Pokemon. They never really show us the history of this, but most likely Arceus created Mew and then all Pokemon descended from it, or Arceus created Mew and then split off DNA from it to form all the other Pokemon. The whole "does the bidding of a 10 year old boy" is simply story and gameplay segregation, and it applies to all the legendary Pokemon which have insane power as well. Groudon and Kyogre who are literally forces of nature are an example. At least the game bothers to give an explanation for Arceus: Cynthia says that it deemed you worthy. Do you really think the game designers would do something stupid like prevent you from entering contests with the message "Arceus is too proud to enter this Pokemon Contest!"? Or have him not able to go into a Pokeball and have to walk around? It's just something they had to do. I do have an answer for this from a story standpoint though, down below.
Megas were planned two generations after Arceus was made, and if the megas didn't have such a sizable boost to their stats they really would not be worth making. It was simply a game design decision that (slightly) contradicted part of the lore but really it doesn't matter. It was clear that at the time it was made, Arceus was meant to be the most powerful Pokemon, and then later the game designers had to go back on it when thinking of how they could make mega evolutions.
I'm going to ignore that sarcastic first comment because I actually agree with your second paragraph (I actually talked about something similar on the first page). The Unown and Arceus are definitely linked but unfortunately I don't think we'll ever get a clear cut answer about the Unown since their whole thing is that they are unknown, and it looks like starting with Generation 5 they're really not that important to the story anymore.
But for an actual theory, I think Arceus uses the Unown as his power to create. It's clear that the Unown do have the power of creation but need someone to direct them, like Arceus or Molly Hale. It's possible that the Unown are a manifestation of Arceus' powers that he made separate from himself but still has the power to control. I'm not sure why he did it, but perhaps it's so that he could give humans the power to create for themselves, like with Molly. It's also possible that they are his "eyes" to keep track of other regions, as he can only be in one place at a time. In that case, that could also explain why he is only a powerful Pokemon and able to be caught and such (aside from deeming you worthy, as Cynthia says): he gave the Unown his power, making him only the strongest Pokemon and not an absolutely omnipotent god. That's my theory.
Good point, it would definitely detract from the games if arceus was uncatchable or had stats to make him omnipotent (like base 200 all arounds). I guess they made him as good as they could without him being completely broken.hulavuta said:
Well the issue is that Mew knows Transform. The reason Mew can Transform into another Pokemon is because said Pokemon's latent DNA is contained within Mew who is the ancestor of all Pokemon. The fact that Mew can Transform into Arceus is proof that Mew contains Arceus latent DNA and that Arceus therefore descended from Mew who came before it.
you could Argue that Arceus created Mew with his own DNA inside of it, but this is a logical fallacy. It's the same reason a religious person can't actually argue that maybe god created the earth with fossils already in it to make everything "interesting" and that evolution isn't a thing. Divine events are not testable and not provable. There are also infinity many divine possibilities thus making them all infinity unlikely. It's equally possible that god created earth 2 seconds ago and created all of us with all the memories to make us think it's been around longer. Like he created the text you're reading right now and created me with the memory of writing it. And there's no way to disprove or prove any of that.
Like for all we can prove a random shiny Luvdisc could be the god of the Pokemon world and for it's own divine reasons gave Arceus the power of creation and created humans with lore of Arcues' god-ish powers. And then also created other Luvdisc in its image. lol What we CAN prove is that Mew contains Arceus' DNA and therefore came before Arceus.
The result being that the legends and lore of Arceus is provably false. It couldn't have hatched from an egg in an empty world because it has a biological ancestor. I guess that's why all this stuff is only "said" about Arceus.
you could Argue that Arceus created Mew with his own DNA inside of it, but this is a logical fallacy. It's the same reason a religious person can't actually argue that maybe god created the earth with fossils already in it to make everything "interesting" and that evolution isn't a thing. Divine events are not testable and not provable. There are also infinity many divine possibilities thus making them all infinity unlikely. It's equally possible that god created earth 2 seconds ago and created all of us with all the memories to make us think it's been around longer. Like he created the text you're reading right now and created me with the memory of writing it. And there's no way to disprove or prove any of that.
Like for all we can prove a random shiny Luvdisc could be the god of the Pokemon world and for it's own divine reasons gave Arceus the power of creation and created humans with lore of Arcues' god-ish powers. And then also created other Luvdisc in its image. lol What we CAN prove is that Mew contains Arceus' DNA and therefore came before Arceus.
The result being that the legends and lore of Arceus is provably false. It couldn't have hatched from an egg in an empty world because it has a biological ancestor. I guess that's why all this stuff is only "said" about Arceus.
Yeah, but the NPC says that, one day, the Abra teleported her to outside the bridge, on the waters below. So she was dead already.
I've heard a theory that it was all Volcarona's fault. The theory explained that Central Unova went through a process of desertification after Volcarona went berserk and Heat Wave'd everything into oblivion, as there could be seen traces of age-old river banks in the desert, and the fact that it's ever-growing (in two years, one the ruin entrances is completely blocked due to the sand level rising; that shouldn't happen if the desert were "stable").
Now, WHY Volcarona went berserk, we will never know.
There is no spoon.
And would you look at that, they are... letters. The only species that can communicate using any kind of written pattern are humans, and look where the creation of writing has put us.
Last edited:
I wouldn't use the move Transform as proof, honestly. Mew probably uses the move the same way Ditto does, which is copying what it sees in front of it.
And has there actually been any Pokedex entries that out and out state Mew to be the ancestor of all Pokemon? From what I remember, most of them just say it is believed to be because "it can learn all kinds of moves". (all TM, HM, and non-exclusive tutor moves) Deoxys also kind of throws a monkey wrench into the belief because its entries tend to emphasize it being a space virus hitching a ride on a meteorite that got mutated into what we see today. If it was originally a virus from outer space, how could its DNA also be in Mew? And that's not even going into the dragon the Tao trio split from.
Really, the only ones who know for certain would be the folks at Game Freak, and they're more than free to change around the lore of their game franchise whenever the mood strikes them. If they one day decide that Pikachu is the god of all Pokemon even with still being able to evolve into Raichu who isn't, then that's just the way it is whether we like or agree with it or not.
I'm not going to get into your second argument about real world divine intervention as it begins to tread on dangerous territory that is not appropriate for this forum (not to mention will probably derail it to hell), but it is kind of irrelevant anyway as it was your support for the Transform argument which, as Detective Barricade pointed out, is not a good argument. He also disproves that Mew can possibly be the ancestor of all Pokemon.
Regardless of real world parallels, and the fact that "we can't prove anything" it's clear that Game Freak is pushing Arceus to be the creator of the Pokemon universe hard, and and you're fine to have your own theory that works around it, but to not think that all signs point in that direction is ludicrous.
Regardless of real world parallels, and the fact that "we can't prove anything" it's clear that Game Freak is pushing Arceus to be the creator of the Pokemon universe hard, and and you're fine to have your own theory that works around it, but to not think that all signs point in that direction is ludicrous.
I believe game freak originally intended to stop the pokemon franchise at GSC, at which point mew was the original pokemon, but once they realized pokemon was successful, they expanded. They created arceus and added the backstory to fill in more pokemon myth, but they could not change mew at that point, so they created a bit if a contradiction between the two, with with mew originally intended to be the first in RBY(but not anymore) and arceus actually supposed to be the first. They basically needed more material, and why not make a pokemon god?
I have a new mystery: how does holding certain kinds of incense make Pokemon breed baby Pokemon? And how are these baby Pokemon born in the wild then?
In the latter case, I think perhaps people misplace incense often...you do find a lot of incense in random Pokeball pick-ups, right?
In the latter case, I think perhaps people misplace incense often...you do find a lot of incense in random Pokeball pick-ups, right?
The only thing I can think of is that incense must be radioactive or have some other properties that disturb organic molecular structures. Maybe most pokemon are immune to these forces, but a select few get affected by them and this causes mutations in their offspring. Each incense must give off different forms of radiation that only reacts to certain pokemon, and those certain pokemon produce baby pokemon. I have exactly 0 in game back up for this, so it's just speculation from a scientific view that could be plausible.hulavuta said:
That...doesn't even hold up in the days of RBGY. Grimer (and by extension Muk) is poisonous sludge mutated and brought to life by the moon's rays iirc, and then there's Porygon the first man-made/artificial Pokemon created by Silph Co. And I'm also a bit suspicious about Voltorb/Electrode and Magnemite/Magneton/Magnezone. Scientists only believe Mew to be an ancestor due to the massive number of moves it can learn. They'd run its DNA against a wide variety of different Pokemon to see if the theory holds water...but they seem much too interested in recombining it over and over to create Mewtwo whenever they get a sample.
Must be some powerful stuff, man... Given how apparently careless these people are to just leave random incense kicking around, perhaps a female Pokemon finds its line's appropriate incense and gets a really strong desire to play with a compatible male/living silly putty? Though Game Freak really wants to sidestep the whole egg thing, it seems... "They're more like a Pokemon cradle" as some NPC put it. I mean, a greater mystery to me is how any baby Pokemon manages to survive in the wild to evolve into the base stage of its line? Pichu can barely hold a charge in its electric cheek pouches and looses it at the slightest provocation as an example, and I don't even want to think about all the Smoochum that could have potentially pressed their lips on something they shouldn't have prior to getting to Lv 30 to evolve into Jynx. I'll mostly excuse Mantyke since it generally seems to live in the same areas Remoraid do, so it probably evolves into Mantine quickly enough...
Then we have Happiny. How exactly does carrying around a certain egg shaped rock for a level incite it to evolve into Chansey, and only during the day?
Okay so I'm a little late to the party here, but for the love of god stop canon-crossing. The anime universe is not a reliable source for over-arching canon and has little to no bearing on the games. It's like saying a spinoff comic for Star Wars is just as important to the story as the original movies when it more that likely doesn't mean shit if it contradicts anything (which the anime does way too much to be considered reliable).
Last edited:
Considering the huge rarity of most incense-based baby pokémon, what if they are not actually natural, but rather human-influenced?
Manipulating traits of other species is not something strange in real life (e.g. Tastier apples or dog breeds that look young even when fully grown) so they could be an exaggeration of it. Perhaps a group of humans found out applying a certain substance (The one in incenses) to a female of a certain pokémon species made its embryos develop in a different way than usual (Or hatch earlier. This would explain that they are pre-evolutions of previously-known pokémon), then saw that the resulting babies looked cute and, as a result, started looking for equivalents of this process on other species. And voilá, all the other so-called 'Baby Pokémon' came to be
... okay, I think I imagined too far this time
Manipulating traits of other species is not something strange in real life (e.g. Tastier apples or dog breeds that look young even when fully grown) so they could be an exaggeration of it. Perhaps a group of humans found out applying a certain substance (The one in incenses) to a female of a certain pokémon species made its embryos develop in a different way than usual (Or hatch earlier. This would explain that they are pre-evolutions of previously-known pokémon), then saw that the resulting babies looked cute and, as a result, started looking for equivalents of this process on other species. And voilá, all the other so-called 'Baby Pokémon' came to be
... okay, I think I imagined too far this time