CAP 19 CAP 19 - Part 5 - Stat Limits

[capefeather]

This next stage is Stat Limits, and it's very important! Our Stats Leader, who will be leading this stage, is Deck Knight, so make sure that your posts are generally directed towards him and the questions he asks. Deck Knight will be deciding the stat limits for CAP 19 at the conclusion of this thread, based on community input. This is NOT the place where we actually submit stats. That will come later.

These limits will help to define what we consider when making and talking about stat spreads for CAP 19. We will look at limits to CAP 19's physical and special attacking prowess, its physical and special tanking capabilities, and the overall power of its stats.

This is a relatively tricky stage of the process if you're not familiar with what it is we're doing and why we're doing it. For that reason, I strongly encourage those who intend to participate to read the entire OP thoroughly and ask questions where needed.

Please do not poll jump by talking about specific stat spreads or suggesting specific abilities.

Be forewarned that there is no poll for this stage of the CAP. The Stats Leader will decide the stat limits for the CAP upon the conclusion of this thread.

Stat Bias Limits

Stat bias limits set the general stat bias of a Pokemon from an offensive and defensive standpoint. Stat biases are not solely for limiting stats, but they also describe the overall build of the Pokemon in offensive and defensive terms. However, the stat spread is the only part of the project that will be constrained by Stat Bias Limits. There will be four stat biases selected and a total Base Stat Rating (BSR) limit. The Stat Biases are:

Physical Tankiness (PT)

The rating of the Pokémon's physical defense.
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Physical Sweepiness (PS)

The rating of the Pokémon's physical offense.
​

Special Tankiness (ST)

The rating of the Pokémon's special defense.
​

Special Sweepiness (SS)

The rating of the Pokémon's special offense​

A spreadsheet for calculating the ratings can be found here. If you don't have a spreadsheet program, OpenOffice is free.

If you're a newer member of CAP, we highly recommend that you do some good lurking during this stage in the process. Read this page thoroughly to understand what exactly we're doing here. If you're still confused, check out some of the old Stat Limits Discussion threads for past CAPs in the CAP Process Archive. If you're still uncomfortable with posting here, then I suggest you watch how experienced users post; you can learn a lot from them!

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CAP19 So Far:

Concept:

Name: Einherjar ~Acta Est Fabula~

Description: A Pokemon that dissuades your opponent from fainting it, or can even leave it's presence on the field felt even after it faints.

Justification: When a Pokemon faints, it's usually thought of as the battle having gotten down to a 5-6. However, we've yet to discover if a Pokemon can leave a lasting impression on the battle even after having fainted; be it through moves like Healing Wish and Destiny Bond, placing hazards that the opponent can't remove as their removal has been taken care of, or by leaving an opponent's key member weakened and/or taken out.

Questions To Be Answered:

• How can a Pokemon leave a long-lasting effect on the rest of the battle with just it's moves?
• How the hell is it different from simply ramming a sacrificial martyr into your opponent's team and hoping it punches holes in it?
• Building on the previous question, is it possible to build this Pokemon as a defensive threat rather than a "Glass Cannon"?
• Is it even possible for a Pokemon to leave a lasting effect on on the battle, even after it faints?
• Could changing your opponent's way of thinking even be plausible? From, "I need to take CAP X out!", to, "Damn, if I take CAP X out, I'll be in trouble...!"

Type: Electric/Poison

Leadership Team:

Pwnemon- Topic Leader
ginganinja - Ability Leader
srk1214 - Typing Leader
alexwolf - Movepool Leader
Deck Knight - Stats Leader

 

[Deck Knight]

Now it's time for the moment of truth in this CAP. The moment where we decide what CAP is gonna do for itself!

We'll start with the Conclusion from the Threats thread:

Closing time.

As I kind of expected, there wasn't very much novel we learned in the department of "what do we want the CAP to be threatened by?" Alexwolf's list was a good one that people seemed to agree on for Pokemon that Gyarados could set up on, so we'll work from that.

• Landorus
• Keldeo locked into anything except from Hidden Power Electric / Scald
• Excadrill outside of sand
• Landorus-T
• Garchomp
• Greninja
• Mega Scizor and regular Scizor
• Choiced Fire-types (Choice Band Talonflame locked into Flare Blitz, Scarf Heatran, Scarf and Band Victini locked to anything other than Bolt Strike)
• Hippowdon without phazing
• Gliscor that lacks Toxic and is not faster than Mega Gyarados + Taunt (EQ + Knock Off SpD Gliscor, SR + Taunt + U-turn Gliscor)
• Dragon Dance Dragonite
• Mamoswine
• Starmie without Thunderbolt
• Weavile
• Rhyperior without Toxic / Roar
• Tyranitar and Mega Tyranitar (except from CB Stone Edge, which does over half)

As I said earlier, we need not check every box on this list. However, it'd be nice to check as many of them as possible, to give Gyarados more opportunites to set up. This list is where all of our hard counters should come from.

It's important also to note however, as ginganinja said, that we shouldn't be setup bait for anything which could then use the setup to take on Gyarados. For example, Garchomp is on alexwolf's list, but we shouldn't let it Swords Dance before it attacks CAP19 or else Gyarados cannot set up on it. CAP19 should lose to Garchomp, but be threatening enough to force it to attack right away.

As for what CAP19 should threaten—it should threaten defensive Pokemon and pivots which Gyarados has trouble handling. These include but are not limited to Ferrothorn, Slowbro, physically defensive Amoonguss, Alomomola. If possible, it should also be able to beat Gyarados's more offensive counters such as Thundurus, Mega Aerodactyl, and Mega Manectric, but these are a secondary priority.

There are a few elements to consider here.

Build Triangle: Fast, Bulky, Powerful - Pick Two.

I discussed this with Pwnemon a few nights ago. Given that the targets we want to threaten in Amoonguss and Ferrothorn are quite defensive, and the Pokemon we want to pressure are pretty swift, Fast and Powerful seems to be the way to go. Our Tankiness ratings should be oriented towards tanking only resisted attacks. Sweepiness will be the major area of contention. How fast do we want CAP to be, and how offensive. Because our primary ability is Storm Drain, it makes sense to focus on Special Sweepiness. Note that Speed will play into both our Sweepiness stats, so if we want to go mixed,

Here's a few baseline ratings on Special Sweepiness to get an idea of what they mean in real stats terms:

Latias (110 / 110): 186.79
Zapdos (125 / 100): 203.25
Jolteon (110 / 130): 195.81
Latios (130 / 110): 224.84

And Physical Sweepiness:

Latios (90 / 110) 149.11
Staraptor (120 / 100): 194.31
Weavile (120 / 125) 214.34
Aerodactyl (105 / 130): 185.33

Tankiness (PT / ST):

Keldeo 91/90/90 (144.80 / 146.03)
Rotom-W 50/107/107 (121.75 / 123.28)
Lucario 70 / 70 / 70 (95.71 / 97.47)

So now with the formalities out of the way, onto questions.

How much Sweepiness is required for us to threaten the defensive checks we seek to threaten, and what are the common battle conditions we can assume to bring this about?

Which offensive threats should CAP be able to tank for M-Gyarados, should they come in to stop M-Gyara's sweep, and how does that affect our Tankiness ratings?

This CAP is not a perfect mate, so consider these:

a) How much threat, therefore, should CAP itself present (and how does this relate to both Physical and Special Sweepiness) in order to force the opponent into a difficult choice between CAP and M-Gyara?

b) Which Pokemon does our CAP naturally threaten that would or would not justify a higher Physical Sweepiness to create a mixed threat?

 

[Elite Lord Sigma]

Before I get into the meat of my post, I just have a quick question. Why is it that ST is higher than PT for Pokemon with the same base Defense and base Special Defense? Does it have something to do with the differing power of physical and special moves?

Anyway, on to my post.

How much sweepiness is required for us to threaten the defensive checks we seek to threaten, and what are the common battle conditions we can assume to bring this about?

Since many of the named checks can either cripple or annoy the CAP with Spore, Regenerator, Leech Seed, and/or Wish stalling, being able to reliably 2HKO most of them without a Storm Drain boost at the bare minimum would be helpful. Thankfully, most of the named defensive checks are quite slow, so they won't require CAP to be too fast. As for attack power, assuming full EV investment and a neutral nature, we need a minimum of base 117 Special Attack to 2HKO OU Utility Ferrothorn through Leftovers recovery with HP Fire, base 126 Special Attack to 2HKO physically defensive Amoonguss through Black Sludge recovery using a 90 BP super-effective non-STAB move (e.g. Psychic, Ice Beam), and base 127 Special Attack to 1HKO physically defensive Slowbro with Thunderbolt and SR up. Alomomola should not be considered because it can't do squat to CAP 19 anyway.


What offensive threats should CAP be able to tank for M-Gyarados, should they come into to stop M-Gyara's sweep, and how does that affect our Tankiness ratings?

I think it should be able to at least take a hit from Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Manectric, and Thundurus with SR up and be able to retaliate. The most powerful special attack would be Overheat from Mega Manectric. To guarantee surviving two hits from Overheat, CAP would need a minimum ST of 145.903 (equivalent to base 91 HP/90 SpD with 4 HP EVs). To guarantee surviving a single Overheat, CAP needs a ST of at least 89.604 (equivalent to base 67 HP/66 SpD with 4 HP EVs). Even taking the higher ST into account, CAP 19 would also still be susceptible to many special attackers that we want it to be threatened by (i.e. Landorus, Starmie, Greninja).

As for physical tankiness, CAP 19 has no chance of taking an Earthquake from Mega Aerodactyl or any other physical attacker, so let's ignore that option. Rather, the best way to proceed would be to consider the move with which M-Aerodactyl most threatens M-Gyarados: Stone Edge. To guarantee surviving a single Stone Edge, CAP 19 would need a PT of at least 117.712 (equivalent to base 79 HP/80 Def with 4 HP EVs). If we wish to account for critical hax from Stone Edge, CAP 19 needs a PT of at least 190.524 (equivalent to base 107 HP/107 Def with 4 HP EVs), which is probably overkill. A more reasonable goalpost would be a PT of 163.883 (equivalent to base 97 HP/98 Def with 4 HP EVs), which is the maximum PT CAP 19 can have while allowing unboosted Dragonite to OHKO 100% of the time with Outrage.

As such, I currently believe that an ST range of 90-150 and a PT range of 120-165 would be reasonable.


How much threat, therefore, should CAP itself present (and how does this relate to both Physical Sweepiness) in order to force the opponent into a difficult choice between CAP and M-Gyara?

CAP 19 should be able to punch substantial holes into the opposing team and/or cripple opponents with status (paralysis, Toxic, etc.) should the opponent elect to avoid trying to knock it out. That said, I believe it is vital that we not be overly cautious in order to make CAP strong enough to pose that kind of threat.

Looking at the high base Speed that many of Mega-Gyarados' offensive checks possess, it seems natural to me that CAP should at the very least be able to outrun unboosted base 100 Speed Pokemon (both Mega-Charizards and Zapdos in particular come to mind here). At most, I think CAP should not be able to outrun Talonflame, as doing so would distort the incentives of using Flare Blitz over Brave Bird.

With everything considered, I currently believe that it would be appropriate to have an SS range of 190-230.


Which Pokemon does our CAP naturally threaten that would or would not justify a higher Physical Sweepiness to create a mixed threat?

A glance at the Pokemon currently in OU, BL, and UU doesn't suggest anything that really justifies making this CAP be able to go mixed. Even Togekiss, Florges, and Celebi, which commonly run specially defensive sets, are 2HKO'd the vast majority of the time with STAB Sludge Wave off of base 117 Special Attack with a neutral nature and full investment.

As such, I think it would be acceptable for CAP 19 to have a PS range of 75-110.


Conclusion

With everything listed above, the total BSR range would be about 250-360. Since these are the extremes of the above stat biases, I believe that a good total BSR range is 280-340.

 

[P3DS]

A spreadsheet for calculating the ratings can be found here. If you don't have a spreadsheet program, OpenOffice is free.

Another option, although quite clunky, is google docs, which is what I'm using.



OK, just looking at the art works and ability makes me think we may have a semi aquatic pokemon, due to storm drain, so I won't rule out on some stuff like surf and scald for now, but, since garchomp is something we want it threatened by, ice beam and other powerful ice moves are a big no. HP ice is there for my ice move to consider, though some may opt for HP fire as an alternative, as most look cold blooded, and fire really wouldn't work with designs. A lot of evil looking artwork may suggest me get something like psychic or psyshock.

How much Sweepiness is required for us to threaten the defensive checks we seek to threaten, and what are the common battle conditions we can assume to bring this about?

The 2 thundurus are a pain for gyarados to deal with if it hasn't set up (thundurus-i more, due to the crippling thunder wave). We will probably be switching in on thunderbolts and thunder wave from thundurus-i. It must be able to cleanly 2hko these. With 130 SpA, we get the clean 2hko on thundurus-i (running 252 HP) and around 60% on thundurus-t with sludge wave. Another threat to gyarados is azumarill. With play rough, it can OHKO 4HP mega gyarados witn +0 play rough, and OHKOs 4hp normal gyarados with +5 play rough, whilst gyarados can't do much in return. So, we need to be able to put the aqua bunny down, whilst we switch into stuff like play roughs and water moves. Miraculously, 130 SpA gives us the the ability to take 75% off 92HP azu with volt switch, putting it just under half health, so it can't belly drum, or we can KO with volt switch if it has already belly drummed and eaten it's sitrus berry, and sludge wave gets the KO. With 252 HP azumarill, we can OHKO it with a life orb, though at 140 SpA, we get a good KO on. I feel clefable is needed to go down, so I'd suggest having a look at taking down clefable outside of So with the grass types amoonguss and ferrothorn, CAP 19 will need to be able to deal with these pokemon. We don't want to switch into an amoonguss, since it will probably just spore you. Phazers are a problem for mega gyarados whilst it tries to set up. With stealth rocks up, we can thunderbolt away skarmory and phaze-support gyarados. Speed wise, I would be looking in the region of 106
-> 110. However, due to not being a full counter, I feel that celebi (especially Bulky sets) should be a counter, as well as stuff like phazing hippowdon.

As a physical threat, forget it. STABs in poison jab and wild charge won't be that good. Poison jab may snipe that particular fairy, but mawile is still a major threat then. Overall, I don't feel it is necessary to invest much in physical attack

Which offensive threats should CAP be able to tank for M-Gyarados, should they come in to stop M-Gyara's sweep, and how does that affect our Tankiness ratings?

The most powerful electric attack we are looking at taking is probably going to be from a nasty plot timid thundurus-t. A ST rating of 97.47 does well to resist 2 hits of a timid thunderbolt and 1 hit of a +2 thunderbolt (Looking at the standard set, no-one seems to be using life orb, so that suits us alright). Rotom-W will probably cause mega gyarados some problems too when it isn't set up, so maybe cripple it a little so when gyarados comes in, it wants to mega evolve and get the KO. We would probably want to have some hydro pumps being tanked. Since it is special moves I believe we will most likely be taking, I believe CAP 19 should have a ST between 110 and 130.

Physical side though should be it's weaker side. The reason why this is that normal gyarados has access to intimidate. I would suggest a PT between 100 and 115.
How much threat, therefore, should CAP itself present (and how does this relate to both Physical and Special Sweepiness) in order to force the opponent into a difficult choice between CAP and M-Gyara?

CAP 19 must put heavy special offensive pressure on the targets in mind. I feel it's special sweepiness should be a special version on archeop's sweepiness, so I'd be saying: SS between 215 and 255. With this, common threats that usually hurt both can't really take hits from both, so they have to think twice.

Which Pokemon does our CAP naturally threaten that would or would not justify a higher Physical Sweepiness to create a mixed threat?

CAP 19 really isn't a physical attacker, LO sludge wave should KO gardevoirs and florges who harm mega gyarados. Also, Mega gyarados should be able to defeat Overall, I'd suggest a PS between 90 and 105.

Conclusion:

I'd expect a BSR of 275 to 330. This gives it some good special sweepiness, whilst giving it some semi decent bulk to let it force some of gyarados' checks and counters to think carefully


Final:
PS between 90 and 105.
SS between 215 and 255.
PT between 100 and 115.
ST between 110 and 130.
BSR of 275 to 330.

 

[Salt]

On Special Sweepiness:
1. We need at least 309 Special Attack to guarantee a 2HKO on standard Ferrothorn with Hidden Power Fire after Stealth Rock and Leftovers. This means at least a base 105 with 252 EVs and a neutral nature, base 91 with 252 EVs and a positive nature, and base 136 with no investment.

2. We need at least 392 Special Attack to 2HKO physically defensive Amoonguss with Sludge Wave(which is more powerful than Hidden Power Fire) after Stealth Rock and Leftovers. The bare minimum base special attack needed to achieve this without a boosting item is 129 with full investment and a positive nature.

3. We need at least 353 Special Attack to OHKO Slowbro with Thunderbolt after SR. This means, with 252 EVs, base 127 is needed with a neutral nature and base 111 is needed with a positive nature.

Now, there are some things to consider about the Pokemon mentioned in the above statements:

1. Ferrothorn has Leech Seed, and if we switch into it or cannot OHKO it, it will be able to Leech Seed us and avoid the 2HKO.

2. Amoonguss can be handled with super-effective coverage should we allow such moves to be given to CAP 19

3. Slowbro and CAP 19 will rarely face each other 1 on 1 because Slowbro will not switch in on us or stay in fearing an Electric attack, and CAP 19 is unlikely to switch in because of taking a potential Psychic attack. The former part also applies to Alomomola, but we have nothing to fear from it and may likely get a Storm Drain boost from it.

This means that Slowbro, Alomomola, and Amoonguss are probably not things we should worry about. If we get a reasonably high Special Attack that can 2HKO Ferrothorn with HP Fire through Leech Seed, then the other problem defensive Pokemon should naturally be taken care of.

Now, I believe that there are a few Pokemon that we should be outspeeding. The absolute slowest of these Pokemon is Breloom because we cannot directly switch into it in fear of Spore. Breloom reaches 239 Speed with an Adamant nature. If we want to outspeed Breloom, we would need base 102 speed without investment, base 71 with 252 EVs and a neutral nature, and base 60 with 252 EVs and a positive nature. Another Pokemon I believe we should outspeed and be able to KO is Timid Mega Gardevoir, which would require base 101 speed with 252 EVs and a positive nature, and and base 115 with 252 EVs and a neutral nature. This is because Mega Gardevoir poses a significant threat to both CAP 19 and Gyarados if it is able to KO us. With 115 speed, we also outspeed Landorus and Thundurus with full investment.

With all of this in mind, I believe an acceptable range for SS is 180-230.

On Physical Sweepiness:
To answer this question: Which Pokemon does our CAP naturally threaten that would or would not justify a higher Physical Sweepiness to create a mixed threat?

Well, everything we're supposed to threaten seems to be more inclined to take Physical attacks. Being a mixed threat isn't necessary because of this, and having high Physical sweepiness won't help to remove any of these threats.

On Physical Tankiness:
The most important physical threats that we should worry about beating seem to be Talonflame and Keldeo (because of Secret Sword)
1. The minimum PT required without any investment to avoid a 2HKO from Choice Band Talonflame's Brave Bird is is around 134. With Stealth Rock, the minimum is increased to around 157. Against Sharp Beak Talonflame, the minimum PTs required to avoid the 2HKO are 103 without SR and 121 with SR.

2. The minimum PT required without any investment to avoid a 2HKO from Choice Specs Keldeo's Secret Sword is around 116. With SR, the minimum increases to 136.

These are probably the most important resisted attacks we need to take, and considering we may have the freedom to invest in defense, and the fact that Gyarados has Intimidate, it doesn't need to be too high.

A good range for PT is 100-155

On Special Tankiness:
The minimum ST required without any investment to avoid a 2HKO from Mega Manectric's Overheat including the SpAtk drop is around 124. With SR, this becomes around 145. This is probably the strongest specially based attack that we have to worry about taking that isn't supereffective coverage against us. A good range for ST is probably 120-170.

With all this taken into account, including potential stat bias and inflation, and the uncertainty of the PS, an acceptable BSR Range to me is 260-340. This BSR limit is similar to what Elite Lord Sigma posted, but I looked at the individual stats in some different ways, so those individual ratings are a bit different.

TL;DR
PS: Doesn't need to be high; should be around 80-90 to avoid extreme BSR abuse
SS: 180-230
PT: 100-155
ST: 120-170
Total BSR: 260-340

I wrote this at like 2AM and did all the calcs on my phone because my internet was off, so I am sorry if things stop making sense.

 

[NumberCruncher]

Build Triangle: Fast and Powerful

How much Sweepiness is required for us to threaten the defensive checks we seek to threaten, and what are the common battle conditions we can assume to bring this about?
Well, while this isn't a defensive check Mega-Pinsir is a severe problem if we want to get off the ground. That puts us at needing at least enough speed to take him out before he EQs. We also want to take down Mega-Gardevoir and Thundurus. The very least you need to accomplish all three is 190 SS (Give it a Life Orb and make it a Modest mon with 108 base SA and 128 Spd). If we want CAP to be really pushed, we could have give it 260 SS (Which is the least you need to kill these two without giving up Black Sludge support), but that seems like a dangerous road to go down.

Which offensive threats should CAP be able to tank for M-Gyarados, should they come in to stop M-Gyara's sweep, and how does that affect our Tankiness ratings?
First of all, it ought to be able to take a Flare Blitz followed by a Brave Bird from Talonflame, so it can actually switch in and kill even if prediction happens. That can be accomplished with a simple 115 spread in the PT. I'd cap off the PT at about 130, because I can't imagine a situation where it needs better bulk than Bisharp to get by. As for Special Bulk, It's hard to say, as we plan to beat most of the Special attackers with superior skills and typing, but I suppose asking for the 110 ST we need not to get 2HKO'd by Zapdos is pretty fair. This should also not exceed 140, because at the point this takes hits better than Assault Vest Conkelldur, we have a problem.

This CAP is not a perfect mate, so consider these:

a) How much threat, therefore, should CAP itself present (and how does this relate to both Physical and Special Sweepiness) in order to force the opponent into a difficult choice between CAP and M-Gyara?
That's tough to say, since our typing and ability are insanely well-positioned in the current OU metagame barring our unfortunate Ground weakness. We definitely need to at least beat out most forms of Rotom in order to be even considerable in this metagame thanks to the Ground weakness though, so

b) Which Pokemon does our CAP naturally threaten that would or would not justify a higher Physical Sweepiness to create a mixed threat?
Nothing much really. Most Special walls right now depend on Toxic stall, Burn stall, Fairy moves, or Roar+hazards to deal damage, and our Poison typing gives us a Toxic immunity and the Burn gets healed off by Black Sludge, and we naturally resist the Fairy moves. The only Special Wall we don't beat is Heatran, which I'm not sure we can build it to beat anyway. This is point to be a bit artificially high, however, since we need to have a ton of speed behind CAP to make him something playable in OU.

Recommended limits:
PT: 115-130
ST: 110-140
PS: 80-90
SS: 190-260
Total BSR: 290-340

 

[Deck Knight]

Update:

Based on the posts above, and in keeping with the flexibility we want for this CAP on the Speed/Offense spectrum, here are the limits:

PT: 110-141
ST: 110-141
PS: 90-120
SS: 190-230
Total BSR: 275-318

These limits provide CAP with the flexibility it needs, allowing for enough Tankiness to use its resistances. Sweepiness stats are selected to allow a broad range of Speed / SpA combinations. Physical Attack enabled by sweepiness stats is mostly irrelevant, but the range doesn't inhibit Speed and doesn't force a dumpstat situation.

The Total BSR limit places CAP in a position to be competitively viable in its own right, without overshadowing Mega Gyarados. Offensive Pokemon at the upper range of this limit are Haxorus (304.40), Arcanine (315.87), and Volcarona (316.58). All Pokemon that fit the general description of our goals, which are Pokemon that have enough offensive presence to be threatening and enough bulk to use their type defense effectively, without being "Bulky."

 

[Birkal]

Pwnemon

 

[Stratos]

Deck’s limits are a great springboard for the more specific stats discussion. However, as I ran some calcs, I began to fear that they might be overly limiting for the kind of crap we’ll be dealing with in an XY OU (plus Mawilite) metagame. The sweepiness ratings were fine, but the tankiness ratings seemed a little low for some of the stuff we need to stomach in OU. For example, Mawile’s Play Rough is a clean 2hko after SR. As such, I’ll be using my TL powers to raise each of the tankiness ratings’ ceilings by 9, so they’re 110-150 each. Accordingly, I’ll raise the BSR limit by 7 as well. Thus the limit is still low enough to force choice (a Pokemon which maxes the tankiness ratings and outspeeds Gardevoir is limited to ~120 SpA) but high enough to allow decent stats.

PT: 110-150
ST: 110-150
PS: 90-120
SS: 190-230
Total BSR: 275-325

Thanks for participating. Onto the stats stage!