Pokémon Omastar

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Sash Omastar with Shell Smash isn't bad. It doesn't rely on rain as much as a Specs set and actually kills scarfers. As long as you keep the Sash intact you pretty much guarantee a kill vs offense without even considering rain. If you get a free Shell Smash in the rain it's pretty much over already. Not sure whether Specs is better or not, but I wouldn't write off Shell Smash too soon regardless because it might just save you when Politoed goes down and you're out of rain. Being too reliant on Rain being up when building a team is never a good idea.

As for teammates for Omastar, Magnezone helps just for Ferrothorn. I run Sub + Charge Beam myself because Choice sets with HP Fire don't cut it in Rain vs Leech Seed + Protect shenanigans. You usually get another kill after Ferrothorn goes down too because you're at about +3 and behind a Sub most of the time. Landorus-T is good for taking on Ground/Fighting/Electric moves and is usually a good pick for Rain teams in general. Manaphy is like mandatory on Rain. Tail Glow + Rest + Hydration is too good to pass up and takes on Chansey like no other mon does.

I've used Talonflame on Rain too and it's not bad like you'd think. Flare Blitz still maims Ferrothorn in Rain and you use it for setup fodder with SD. It also threatens Mega Venusaur who is problematic. I only stopped using it because it's weak to SR (which Ferrothorn unfortunately always carries) and hazard support is hard to fit on fast-paced rain teams.

 

[gnr61]

I agree that certain fire types make unlikely good pairings with Omastar, though I haven't tried Talonflame since it really doesn't contribute against Thundurus/Rotom/electricts in general. Bulky Charizard X (Roost + WoW or SD) works pretty nicely, gaining momentum off Ferrothorn and giving relatively few fucks about Thundurus while being able to viably forego its fire stab anyway for EQ (a lot of rain-viable Ferro answers are stopped cold by Heatran of all things, slowing the team down). WoW especially is useful for luring and dispatching Azumarill and is just generally a great pivot to spread burns or double with, since Omastar slam dunks all of Char X's counters.

Has anyone really attempted Roost QD Volc with this thing? SR is a problem since it's pretty damn hard to avoid having rocks on your side with all the Politoed switch-ins/forcing out rain experiences, but Hurricane+Giga handily lays out bulky grasses and waters that get in Star's way and with rain shielding it somewhat from water attacks while setting up it should have ample opportunities. Then again, Heatran, Thund and other weather setters can still be a problem for it, so maybe it's just ass

 

[Chou Toshio]

If you really need to kill ferro under rain, bust out the sunny day + hp fire Magnezone (like a boss).

Or if you want to be really hipster, try out the BW rain abusing Moltres set.

 

[Yamborski]

You seem to be lacking experience in working with rain attackers. When you're getting a 1.5 boost from rain, every little bit of power difference is amplified by that boost. The difference between surf and scald for instance is not 10 points, but 15 (23 pts when factoring in STAB, 35 pts of difference with Specs-- that's why Surf>>>>>>Scald here).

Likewise the difference in effective SpA is amplified.

The 20 BST difference between Kingdra and Omastar becomes an effective 99 point difference in Special Attack when comparing Modest Specs Rain Hydro Pumps. If you consider STAB it's a 150 point difference.

That's roughly equivalent to the difference in SpA between Modest Latias and Modest Poliwag.

While Omastar no doubt hits harder your post is misleading saying the difference is comparable in any way to Latias vs Poliwag.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey in Rain: 261-307 (40 - 47%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey in Rain: 229-270 (35.1 - 41.4%)

Omastar hits with about 13% more force, simple as that. Latias has about 78% more special attack than Poliwag so even though I understand what you're trying to say about the literal stat point difference it's basically irrelevant info.

Also there is nothing wrong with Scald. 30% chance of fucking something with a burn is pretty much a death sentence on Ferro, Amoonguss or Mega Venu when they have to repeatedly switch in on Rain boosted hits. Hydro Pump + Scald on the same rain sweeper mon is perfectly fine because sometimes you need power, other times you need accuracy. STAB rain boosted Specs Water moves don't really need coverage when you're breaking Mega Venusaur in two hits with a resisted hit lol.

 

[Always!]

Omastar interests me because of the sheer force behind it's rain-boosted strikes. With that much force behind every Hydro Pump or Scald, it's checks and counters are going to be wore down so fast, I imagine you'd want something to clean up easy against offensive and defensive teams alike, as you can't count on Politoed to supply infinite rain anymore.

Choice Band Talon, ScarfChomp or Scarf Lando-T seem to be ideal partners, as the hit hard, are solid cleaners and cover Omastar's weaknesses.

 

[Chou Toshio]

While Omastar no doubt hits harder your post is misleading saying the difference is comparable in any way to Latias vs Poliwag.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey in Rain: 261-307 (40 - 47%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey in Rain: 229-270 (35.1 - 41.4%)

Omastar hits with about 13% more force, simple as that. Latias has about 78% more special attack than Poliwag so even though I understand what you're trying to say about the literal stat point difference it's basically irrelevant info.

Also there is nothing wrong with Scald. 30% chance of fucking something with a burn is pretty much a death sentence on Ferro, Amoonguss or Mega Venu when they have to repeatedly switch in on Rain boosted hits. Hydro Pump + Scald on the same rain sweeper mon is perfectly fine because sometimes you need power, other times you need accuracy. STAB rain boosted Specs Water moves don't really need coverage when you're breaking Mega Venusaur in two hits with a resisted hit lol.

You'll note that my post specifically states Special Attack Stats, not damage output (Latias has a fully invested 350, Poliwag 200).

Also assumes non-stab, non-boosted attack.

Uhh, and Blissey is a terrible example for being so bulky.

Modest Latias Ice Besm v. Calm Blissey (8.5 - 10.2%)
Modest Poliwag Ice Beam v. Calm Blissey (4.9 - 5.8%)

 

[Yamborski]

You'll note that my post specifically states Special Attack Stats, not damage output (Latias has a fully invested 350, Poliwag 200).

Also assumes non-stab, non-boosted attack.

Stats are irrelevant, only damage output actually matters. As I said before Omastar has 13% more special attack than Kingdra. STAB, Specs, and Rain multiply the damage output by 1.5x each but this doesn't really change the difference in power.

Uhh, and Blissey is a terrible example for being so bulky.

Modest Latias Ice Besm v. Calm Blissey (8.5 - 10.2%)
Modest Poliwag Ice Beam v. Calm Blissey (4.9 - 5.8%)

What does this have to do with anything.

 

[Karxrida]

Stats are irrelevant, only damage output actually matters. As I said before Omastar has 13% more special attack than Kingdra. STAB, Specs, and Rain multiply the damage output by 1.5x each but this doesn't really change the difference in power.

Yes it does.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 183-216 (28.5 - 33.6%) -- 98.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 207-244 (32.2 - 38%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Kingdra likes to run Life Orb instead so it can go mixed, so it'll usually look like this.

252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 160-188 (24.9 - 29.2%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

A max damage roll on Specs Kingdra in Rain does 216 damage while 3/4 of the damage rolls that Omastar can get outdamage that. Specs always outdamages LO Kingdra regardless.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Stats are irrelevant, only damage output actually matters. As I said before Omastar has 13% more special attack than Kingdra. STAB, Specs, and Rain multiply the damage output by 1.5x each but this doesn't really change the difference in power.

Of course damage output is the most important outcome, but I was simply illustrating the effect of multipliers applied to stats.

What does this have to do with anything.

Blissey is a terrible example for illustrating the difference in damage output between the two. The difference in damage between Cloyster and Kingdra can be critical, but Blissey's bulk obscures an understanding of this difference. Even Latias and Poliwag look like they have close damage output hitting Blissey.

The difference between them becomes a lot more in actual health% when hitting frailer opponents-- something to be aware of when you have really powerful attackers bolstered by multipliers (like rain)

Tl;dr Omastar hits zomg hard, and the difference in power between it and Kingdra can be critical.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Yes it does.

I think you're misunderstanding the point Yamborski is making. The difference in power between the two percentage-wise doesn't change because of multipliers that both Pokemon are enjoying. To illustrate:

252 SpA Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 165-195 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 145-172 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

With neutral natures and no item or Rain, that's about a 13.3% difference in minimum damage. Now factor in those things:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Rain: 406-478 (119 - 140.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Rain: 357-420 (104.6 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Now it's a 13.8% difference, which is basically the same as before. The change can simply be attributed to differences in rounding between the two calculations. Bar those small rounding differences, the inclusion of multipliers such as natures, item boosts, and weather boosts do not change the percentage difference.

You'll note that my post specifically states Special Attack Stats, not damage output (Latias has a fully invested 350, Poliwag 200).

The reason that that's misleading is because outside of speed tiers, no one thinks in terms of raw stats. Life Orb and Choice Specs don't give raw stat boosts, they give percentage boosts. Stat boosts from moves like Swords Dance don't boost in terms of raw stats, they boost by percentages. The primary notation of damage calculation is always given in percentages and not raw stats because percentage give you immediate information about a Pokemon's likeliness to survive a certain attack. Raw numbers do not. In order to find out the chance of survival from raw stats, you'd have to convert it to a percentage anyway. For an example, let's say I told you that Pokemon X hits Pokemon Y with attack Z for 30-35% damage. Now let's say I told you that I increased the attack stat by 20 points. That tells you nothing about how much extra damage I'm doing unless you first knew Pokemon X's exact offensive stat so that you could figure out the percent increase. However, if I told you that I increased the stat by 20%, then you can quickly do the math in your head and deduce that I'm doing about 36-42% damage now. The main reason that your Latias / Poliwag example is misleading is because of this fact that everything we talk about in regards to damage is presented in percentages. When I see an example like that, I think, "Wow, Latias is hitting 80% harder than Poliwag! Does Omastar really hit that much harder than Kingdra?" I get and agree with the point you're trying to make, but there are much better examples to use that better conform to the notation of damage that competitive players are generally used to.

Also, Blissey is a perfectly fine example, lol.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Rain: 237-280 (33.1 - 39.2%) -- 12.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Rain: 210-247 (29.4 - 34.5%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blissey in Rain: 313-370 (48 - 56.8%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blissey in Rain: 276-325 (42.3 - 49.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Rain: 406-478 (119 - 140.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Rain: 357-420 (104.6 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

We have 13.6%, 13.8%, and 13.8% percent differences between the damage done in each calculation, respectively. The percentage in damage doesn't change just because the damage done is higher. The raw numbers do, but again, no one thinks like that nowadays. Even the calculation you did with Latias and Poliwag against Blissey don't make the damage look closer than it really is because, from that example, it still looks like Latias is nearly twice as strong as Poliwag.

Also, holy crap, Choice Specs Omastar in the Rain 3HKOs specially defensive Blissey after Stealth Rock with Hydro Pump. 0.o

EDIT: To clarify, I understand what you're saying about the damage mattering more at higher percentages in terms of percent damage dealt, and I agree. However, the point of that Blissey calc wasn't to say, "See? Omastar isn't that much stronger than Kingdra because Blissey doesn't take much more damage from it!" The point was to illustrate that the difference between their damage outputs is ~13%, and that remains true regardless of what the damage is caculated against.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I think you're misunderstanding the point Yamborski is making. The difference in power between the two percentage-wise doesn't change because of multipliers that both Pokemon are enjoying. To illustrate:

252 SpA Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 165-195 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 145-172 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

With neutral natures and no item or Rain, that's about a 13.3% difference in minimum damage. Now factor in those things:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Rain: 406-478 (119 - 140.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Rain: 357-420 (104.6 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Now it's a 13.8% difference, which is basically the same as before. The change can simply be attributed to differences in rounding between the two calculations. Bar those small rounding differences, the inclusion of multipliers such as natures, item boosts, and weather boosts do not change the percentage difference.



The reason that that's misleading is because outside of speed tiers, no one thinks in terms of raw stats. Life Orb and Choice Specs don't give raw stat boosts, they give percentage boosts. Stat boosts from moves like Swords Dance don't boost in terms of raw stats, they boost by percentages. The primary notation of damage calculation is always given in percentages and not raw stats because percentage give you immediate information about a Pokemon's likeliness to survive a certain attack. Raw numbers do not. In order to find out the chance of survival from raw stats, you'd have to convert it to a percentage anyway. For an example, let's say I told you that Pokemon X hits Pokemon Y with attack Z for 30-35% damage. Now let's say I told you that I increased the attack stat by 20 points. That tells you nothing about how much extra damage I'm doing unless you first knew Pokemon X's exact offensive stat so that you could figure out the percent increase. However, if I told you that I increased the stat by 20%, then you can quickly do the math in your head and deduce that I'm doing about 36-42% damage now. The main reason that your Latias / Poliwag example is misleading is because of this fact that everything we talk about in regards to damage is presented in percentages. When I see an example like that, I think, "Wow, Latias is hitting 80% harder than Poliwag! Does Omastar really hit that much harder than Kingdra?" I get and agree with the point you're trying to make, but there are much better examples to use that better conform to the notation of damage that competitive players are generally used to.

Also, Blissey is a perfectly fine example, lol.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Rain: 237-280 (33.1 - 39.2%) -- 12.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Rain: 210-247 (29.4 - 34.5%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blissey in Rain: 313-370 (48 - 56.8%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blissey in Rain: 276-325 (42.3 - 49.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Rain: 406-478 (119 - 140.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Rain: 357-420 (104.6 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

We have 13.6%, 13.8%, and 13.8% percent differences between the damage done in each calculation, respectively. The percentage in damage doesn't change just because the damage done is higher. The raw numbers do, but again, no one thinks like that nowadays. Even the calculation you did with Latias and Poliwag against Blissey don't make the damage look closer than it really is because, from that example, it still looks like Latias is nearly twice as strong as Poliwag.

Also, holy crap, Choice Specs Omastar in the Rain 3HKOs specially defensive Blissey after Stealth Rock with Hydro Pump. 0.o

EDIT: To clarify, I understand what you're saying about the damage mattering more at higher percentages in terms of percent damage dealt, and I agree. However, the point of that Blissey calc wasn't to say, "See? Omastar isn't that much stronger than Kingdra because Blissey doesn't take much more damage from it!" The point was to illustrate that the difference between their damage outputs is ~13%, and that remains true regardless of what the damage is caculated against.

I'm glad you understand, because you generally don't think in terms of how much more or less percent one attack does compared to another-- you generally think in terms of how much damage specific attacks do to specific Pokemon. ie. What's important is not percent damage difference between attacks, but how much percent ACTUAL POKEMON have left after getting hit by said attacks...

13% difference is a lot different coming from rain boosted specs Hydro Pumps than it is coming off of... Well, most anything else really. Don't think there's a whole lot else out there hitting harder in general without stat boosts.

 

[Yamborski]

I'm glad you understand, because you generally don't think in terms of how much more or less percent one attack does compared to another-- you generally think in terms of how much damage specific attacks do to specific Pokemon. ie. What's important is not percent damage difference between attacks, but how much percent ACTUAL POKEMON have left after getting hit by said attacks...

13% difference is a lot different coming from rain boosted specs Hydro Pumps than it is coming off of... Well, most anything else really. Don't think there's a whole lot else out there hitting harder in general without stat boosts.

nice save

 

[Agent Gibbs]

I'm glad you understand, because you generally don't think in terms of how much more or less percent one attack does compared to another-- you generally think in terms of how much damage specific attacks do to specific Pokemon. ie. What's important is not percent damage difference between attacks, but how much percent ACTUAL POKEMON have left after getting hit by said attacks...

You actually can think of both, depending on the circumstance. For example, if Game Freak ever releases Adaptability Dragalge, its Modest Draco Meteors will be ~20% stronger than Latios's Timid Draco Meteors, which anyone who has played against a Latios knows is really strong. Numbers like that are often used as reference points to illustrate power/bulk of one thing in relation to another, generally more well known thing. The relationship between these percentages and those of actual damage calculations are another story, but I see examples like this all the time.