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Ladder Balanced Hackmons
- Thread starter verbatim
- Start date
He's with you with the Pure Hackmons vs Balanced Hackmons thing
Honestly, I'm fine with this change, many things I started believing things were just too bulky (and this is coming from a balanced / stall player) and it was a pain to break anything unless you had an outrageous attack which limited the entrance to the metagame quite a bit (with a few exceptions, not many pokemon with a BST under 600 saw play) thus I think this would open up new strategies and niche pokemon to enrich the game.
Honestly, I'm fine with this change, many things I started believing things were just too bulky (and this is coming from a balanced / stall player) and it was a pain to break anything unless you had an outrageous attack which limited the entrance to the metagame quite a bit (with a few exceptions, not many pokemon with a BST under 600 saw play) thus I think this would open up new strategies and niche pokemon to enrich the game.
I feel that, with the new rules especially, banning gengarite might be something to be looked at. It allows you to get past the shadow tag ban. I've been running illusion gengar @ gengarite disguised as shedinja, and it traps chansey switch ins and shedinja counters way too well. Who needs to be imposter proof when you can lure them in and trap them. Sure, it's now extremely frail, but I can usually guarantee at least 1 K-O from it. Mawilite and medichamite also allow you to get around the huge/pure power ban, but I don't think those are as broken.
Shedinja counters are 98% of the time ghost type. I don't see how it traps them.
On a related note, I don't think that Gengarite is ban worthy, although for consistency, we might want to ban it as Shadow Tag by itself is banned. However, I don't think it's that negative of a presence in this metagame due to how common switching moves are, and the fact that Gengar-Mega has no bulk (even less after the 510 EV change).
Mawilite and Medichamite are not broken at all IMHO due to not being any stronger than MMX and being much slower/frailer.
Are we ever going to get to vote or anything on CactusCacti's suggestion about the no EV BH? I honestly think it's a terrific idea and it will restore the meta to the state it was (well, a very very similar state) before the hugely disliked 510 EV cap.
We're not voting on the no ev's thing. Apart from the fact that it actually wouldn't be that much similar (ev defense investment, or lack thereof, has a different impact than attack ev's). These changes, which are staying, make BH more similar to the standard meta games on PS, enabling us to draw from a wider pool of users.
Kit Kasai
Love colored magic
Just for reference actually, mega mawile has 102 more atk points than adamant mm2x, which is about the equivalent of a life orb boost. Most mm2x are jolly though, which makes it 199 atk points higher.
Also worth mentioning on 510 vs 0...
510: 252+ Atk Refrigerate Kyurem-B Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regigigas: 211-249 (49.7 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
0: 0+ Atk Refrigerate Kyurem-B Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regigigas: 180-213 (49.8 - 59%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
Yeah, I don't see a big enough difference to warrant going that way. Only real exception would be 252 (s)atk/spe users attacking each other since with 510 they KO each other quicker. Otherwise, 0 EVs would be just like it is now, more or less, except just with fewer options for building sets, which I don't think is good. (Even max EVs had the option of reducing them for things like Trick Room, anti-Imposter, and other shenanigans.)
510: 252+ Atk Refrigerate Kyurem-B Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regigigas: 211-249 (49.7 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
0: 0+ Atk Refrigerate Kyurem-B Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regigigas: 180-213 (49.8 - 59%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
Yeah, I don't see a big enough difference to warrant going that way. Only real exception would be 252 (s)atk/spe users attacking each other since with 510 they KO each other quicker. Otherwise, 0 EVs would be just like it is now, more or less, except just with fewer options for building sets, which I don't think is good. (Even max EVs had the option of reducing them for things like Trick Room, anti-Imposter, and other shenanigans.)
Your're right on the ghosts not being able to be trapped part, but:
252+ SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 186-218 (36.9 - 43.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 252+ SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 558-656 (110.7 - 130.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (+3 obtained by tail glow)
The bulkiest ghost is OHKO'D If they stay in and I go mega.
+3 252+ SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 456-536 (90.4 - 106.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
They can also be KO'D by remaining normal gengar.
+3 252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 510-600 (101.1 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I can even run timid and still get a guaranteed KO
Also, ghosts probably aren't going to attack with an attack from what I've seen. Giratina at least often uses curse.
I don't really think, shadow tag or huge/pure power are broken, I just think they should be banned for consistency.
Shadow Ball on Gengar is a really bad idea as it leaves you vulnerable to Imposters. The best set for Gengarite Mega Gengar is something like Perish Song / King's or Spiky Shield / Recover / Encore
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
to be completely honest, theres only 1 real sturdinja "counter" and thats mold breaker pursuit ghost types. which to be fair, only one(mega gengar) does it well enough, which yeah, it wins 1v1 vs it if he pursuits, but thats the thing, idk about most people, but i NEVER send my mold breaker half assed into shed, because usually they just baton pass out, and forces them to play riskier then id LIKE them to be. i usually go into my "middle ground" pokemon(something im willing to eat up an endevoir), personally im fond of running 2 ghosts(like prankaegis), prankster, rocky helmet fodder, or chansey, (which trapping chansey could work, but if you try to boost in their face it backfires horribly via skill swap) illusion allthough good on paper, is one of those abilities ive talked about that sounds good on paper and in practice, but they wont fall for it twice if they even fall for it the first time. it gives results, but soon the results will drop HORRIBLY due to just being obvious since there aren't many players in this meta. also, all the common leads shit on this set, so running it as a lead id strongly sudgest against (fake out espeeders, chansey(pretty sure skill swap works once you mega), deoxys s, yveltal to name a few) to say it sucks, is wrong, but at the same time, saying its good, is pretty inaccurate too, its "good for a bit, but once people know your strat, it just goes downhill"
I might hate myself for posting this, but Curse/Sub/Recover/Entrainment Gengarite Mega-Gengar with Normalize as the base ability. It doesn't mega-evolve until later in the match once you have done sufficient scouting and know when you can trap a certain target. It's pretty much done after that, but it can be a massive pain in the ass prior to megalution and may not even have to evolve in a match to do its job (mine frequently doesn't). But it can provide stupid amounts of disruption and then pull a surprise trap later on to absolutely, positively kill something. And possibly trap again if there's something it can safely switch into repeatedly on the opposing team.
Also, yeah, as I said before, ban the megastones that give access to banned abilities for consistency's sake. Again, Pokemon that have them naturally can't use them, so there's no reason or precedent for this loophole.
Hey guys sorry I haven't been able to weigh in on this whole thing since I wasn't around.
Anyway, the changes are in and if they're faithful to the game then I guess we follow them, that's how it's always been. All other features that did not follow the game in this manner have steadily disappeared so I guess it's fair to say this one is gone too.
However, I wonder if it's possible to say, create a new meta whose sole focus is to have 510 ev's? And then perhaps allow us to have any moves we like..? Lol
Anyway the new BH is so horribly slanted to a whopping four to five abilities and mons that it's almost laughably sad. The loss of evs makes all the mons hit wayy harder than they used to making stall completely obsolete. I should be happy but it's actually pretty boring >.> Still have a 20-2 record though, accidentally from just using my old (now garbage) teams.
Also just wanted to share the greatest comeback I've ever actually done.. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-157196031
Warning: Last turn hax with terrible team
Anyway, the changes are in and if they're faithful to the game then I guess we follow them, that's how it's always been. All other features that did not follow the game in this manner have steadily disappeared so I guess it's fair to say this one is gone too.
However, I wonder if it's possible to say, create a new meta whose sole focus is to have 510 ev's? And then perhaps allow us to have any moves we like..? Lol
Anyway the new BH is so horribly slanted to a whopping four to five abilities and mons that it's almost laughably sad. The loss of evs makes all the mons hit wayy harder than they used to making stall completely obsolete. I should be happy but it's actually pretty boring >.> Still have a 20-2 record though, accidentally from just using my old (now garbage) teams.
Also just wanted to share the greatest comeback I've ever actually done.. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-157196031
Warning: Last turn hax with terrible team
I think friday would be a good time for us to open the suspect thread and start discussing the possibility of removing things in order to balance the metagame (please note that balance means make it so that there's nothing that everyone needs to run or be at a distinct advantage, not lets try and recreate the old metagame). Unless anyone has any compelling reasons why we should open later I'll ask a smod to open the thread then.
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I doubt removing things will solve anything personally.Apart from leaning towards not banning things, I also think that by making things paper-flimsy with legal ev's, the possibility of having any moves with any abilities will always lean towards using nukes and stuff. Like, if you got rid of protean, adaptibility/sheer force would just take its place, and similarly if you got rid of mewtwo, another spam mon like latios or something would come up. It's just spammons at this point. A single mon can usually destroy anything one shot alone. Bans wouldn't really change that. Also within the small clique of the four or five abilities there's nothing particularly op, they pretty much all revenege each other. It just makes sure there's no use working with any of the other abilities and mons.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-157230642
You'd have to remove mons and abilities and at the point who would even want to play the meta. I mean I could use a psyduck with illuminate and razor leaf if I wanted I suppose..
That being said I would be open in moving the date later because I think a little more time could be helpful in testing the meta.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-157230642
You'd have to remove mons and abilities and at the point who would even want to play the meta. I mean I could use a psyduck with illuminate and razor leaf if I wanted I suppose..
That being said I would be open in moving the date later because I think a little more time could be helpful in testing the meta.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
hm...well...something to consider is rather then banning abilities straightforward (as for protean, get mm2x and y the hell out of here pl0x but i digress) we could go the "salvage the ability" route and just ban fake out, being that with ilate, it becomes a stab move with 78 base power with the HIGHEST attacking priority, its practically neutral espeed with super effective coverage that always flinches. given you can only use it on the first turn, but thats still free prior damage that your opponent can inflict on you, and you are almost helpless to stop it. it WILL damage you, and the only difference is now its even HARDER to sponge a fake out-espeed due to the metas rapid offensive shift. wouldn't it just be better to ban fake out then to ban the abilities. JUST so we dont start losing Balanced hackmons main niche(this is for when people start bringing up ilate ban lol).
now, this one i highly doubt anyone will be for, and i'm also very skeptical about this idea myself, but i still want to just throw it out there to all of you. something we can try doing, is flat out getting rid of mega's. now, i understand this meta was blessed with the mega's, but now the offensive shift many of them bring, is now breaking the very meta we are trying to salvage. if we get rid of the megas, the power creep will dramatically fall down, and in return help the meta fix itself a bit. while powerful threats like kyurem b and w still remain, with less juggernauts ready to slowly destroy the metagame, it will be A LOT easier to prepare your teams to fight against them. or hey, even restricting mega's to one per team (kinda like ou, except keeping the mega mechanic bh has in tact) which could potentially even keep mega mewtwo x and y in without needing a suspect.
idk, just some ideas ive been thinking. as for what we decide to do, its entirely up to verbatim. so if he just decides "lolno" then i wont blame him.
now, this one i highly doubt anyone will be for, and i'm also very skeptical about this idea myself, but i still want to just throw it out there to all of you. something we can try doing, is flat out getting rid of mega's. now, i understand this meta was blessed with the mega's, but now the offensive shift many of them bring, is now breaking the very meta we are trying to salvage. if we get rid of the megas, the power creep will dramatically fall down, and in return help the meta fix itself a bit. while powerful threats like kyurem b and w still remain, with less juggernauts ready to slowly destroy the metagame, it will be A LOT easier to prepare your teams to fight against them. or hey, even restricting mega's to one per team (kinda like ou, except keeping the mega mechanic bh has in tact) which could potentially even keep mega mewtwo x and y in without needing a suspect.
idk, just some ideas ive been thinking. as for what we decide to do, its entirely up to verbatim. so if he just decides "lolno" then i wont blame him.
Yes, ban fake out, ill take out my team belly drum e speed abusers that you'll have to then hope for speed tie on to kill.
One mega per team would just be a two sided blade as we'd be getting rid of bulky mons aswell. And really, when you consider it, there are many mega's that are no where near the same level as normal uber mons are, which would still be unlimited right?
One mega per team would just be a two sided blade as we'd be getting rid of bulky mons aswell. And really, when you consider it, there are many mega's that are no where near the same level as normal uber mons are, which would still be unlimited right?
The sad thing about the changes is that it got rid of mixed attackers and mixed walls + stall (before on classic BH pretty much every playstyle was equally more or less viable, now it's all about being offensive), and because of that everybody is talking about random bans.
Ban abilities, ban megas, ban mons, ban moves, and now the meta that was supposed to be less restricted as possible (only restricted enough to do not overcentralize the game on a specific ability or something) turns into a meta that leans toward getting a lot of restrictions and losing its diversity because of that, and in a way losing its fun too because i guess almost everybody agrees that more diversity makes the game more fun.
And all of that because the similarity with the in-game hack is more important than the pleasure the old meta give to all players.
For this post won't be a completely complain i'll make some comments on the new meta:
-Imposter and Shedinja becomes much better since they're not so EVs dependent (i'm even running a team with 5 sheddy [aerilate, pixilate, refrigerate, magic guard, sturdy] + Imposter Chansey and i'm going surprisingly well, i've even heard complains about Species Clause because of my team lol);
-Some people used to run Specs with -ate Boomburst for wallbreaking, now that not everything has 252 HP/252 SpDef Scarf becomes a much more valuable item instead;
-Mega Gengar becomes better since it can attack both Defense and Special Defense with only Special Attacks (Judgment and Secret Sword), so his 252 EVs on Special Attack has double usefulness in a way while PH Yveltal or other wall can not have 252 on HP and both defenses;
-I've tested a bit and Mega-Aerodactyl with Toxic Orb and Aerilate seems like a good Anti-Lead for me (if such thing can be said to exist), it has the fastest Fake Out, Extreme Speed and Facade, does a lot of damage to most things now that they don't run HP and Defense, while Aero only has to worry about its Attack and Speed, can sponge status moves because of its orb and can even use that to Spore Imposters or something like that;
That's it for now.
Ban abilities, ban megas, ban mons, ban moves, and now the meta that was supposed to be less restricted as possible (only restricted enough to do not overcentralize the game on a specific ability or something) turns into a meta that leans toward getting a lot of restrictions and losing its diversity because of that, and in a way losing its fun too because i guess almost everybody agrees that more diversity makes the game more fun.
And all of that because the similarity with the in-game hack is more important than the pleasure the old meta give to all players.
For this post won't be a completely complain i'll make some comments on the new meta:
-Imposter and Shedinja becomes much better since they're not so EVs dependent (i'm even running a team with 5 sheddy [aerilate, pixilate, refrigerate, magic guard, sturdy] + Imposter Chansey and i'm going surprisingly well, i've even heard complains about Species Clause because of my team lol);
-Some people used to run Specs with -ate Boomburst for wallbreaking, now that not everything has 252 HP/252 SpDef Scarf becomes a much more valuable item instead;
-Mega Gengar becomes better since it can attack both Defense and Special Defense with only Special Attacks (Judgment and Secret Sword), so his 252 EVs on Special Attack has double usefulness in a way while PH Yveltal or other wall can not have 252 on HP and both defenses;
-I've tested a bit and Mega-Aerodactyl with Toxic Orb and Aerilate seems like a good Anti-Lead for me (if such thing can be said to exist), it has the fastest Fake Out, Extreme Speed and Facade, does a lot of damage to most things now that they don't run HP and Defense, while Aero only has to worry about its Attack and Speed, can sponge status moves because of its orb and can even use that to Spore Imposters or something like that;
That's it for now.
I don't know about you guys, but I'm finding my walls are still working more or less fine. Maybe even better because everyone is going "OOOMG HPYER OFFFEEENSE GOOOOOO" and then ends up just plinking against Giratina, Cress, Aggron, or whoever I have out. And then that offensive mon gets killed by the wall, something that really wasn't possible in the past. Really, if anything is suffering from the overall drop of bulk in the meta, it's offensive Poison Heal since that passive recovery doesn't mean much when the mon gets cleanly OHKOed or 2HKOed.
Also, mixed bulk is easily possible. Not as bulky as it was, but you can still run it and its still feasible. If you don't need speed, offense, or lots of HP for something like Wish, 252 Def/Sp D is a good cookie cutter spread (there might be something more efficient in there with HP) for mixed. If you need another stat, then cookie cut 252 HP 252 whatever you need.
Oh, and also, bans =/= loss of diversity. In fact, it can increase it. For example, if Kyogre were to go (which I am NOT suggesting, just using as an example), it'd open the door for both Blastoise-M and Suicune to fill the gap, along with maybe a couple of others, therefore increasing diversity.
Also, mixed bulk is easily possible. Not as bulky as it was, but you can still run it and its still feasible. If you don't need speed, offense, or lots of HP for something like Wish, 252 Def/Sp D is a good cookie cutter spread (there might be something more efficient in there with HP) for mixed. If you need another stat, then cookie cut 252 HP 252 whatever you need.
Oh, and also, bans =/= loss of diversity. In fact, it can increase it. For example, if Kyogre were to go (which I am NOT suggesting, just using as an example), it'd open the door for both Blastoise-M and Suicune to fill the gap, along with maybe a couple of others, therefore increasing diversity.
Has anyone else noticed a seemingly drastic increase in the use of whirlpool lately?
Not really.
If anything, I've seen a decrease in sturdinja usage and an increase in Cube carrying leech seed.
If anything, I've seen a decrease in sturdinja usage and an increase in Cube carrying leech seed.
how do people feel about the suspect thread opening up on Sunday? Is that a fine time, is it too soon, etc?
It's been long enough, but I feel that there's been a lack of people playing, so any discussion about bans probably won't be completely justified.
I know I haven't been playing that much, although that's probably because Xenoblade rather than any annoyance on my part at the new ladder.