Ursaring (QC 0/3)

[rob.]

Hearse-aring

Overview
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• Ursaring has a monstrous base 130 Attack stat that allows it to function as an amazing wallbreaker.
• Has two great abilities, Guts and Quick Feet.
• Has an amazing physical movepool and the capability to take advantage of many of its attacks.
• Ursaring is slow (besides the Quick Feet set), which means it'll have to take a hit before attacking.
• Limited longevity because it will always be poisoned or burned.
• Susceptible to entry hazards and is easily worn down by residual burn or poison damage.
• Lacks the ability to switch into attacks because of its typing.

Quick Feet
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name: Quick Feet
move 1: Facade
move 2: Close Combat
move 3: Crunch
move 4: Protect / Swords Dance
ability: Quick Feet
item: Toxic Orb
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
nature: Jolly

Moves
========

• Facade is Ursaring's STAB move of choice that has 140 base power after Toxic Orb activates.
• Earthquake hits the Rock- and Steel-type Pokemon that resist Facade.
• Close Combat offers the same coverage as Earthquake but it's more powerful than Earthquake. The only downside is its penalty that lowers the users Defense and Special Defense.
• Crunch completes Ursaring's perfect coverage and is aimed at Ghost-types who are immune to Facade and Close Combat.
• Protect gives Ursaring a turn to allow Toxic Orb to activate in order to boost its Speed and Facade's power.
• Swords Dance could be used over Protect but it leaves Ursaring susceptible to attacks and open to burns or being paralyzed.

Set Details
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• Don't use a Flame Orb since a burn would cut Ursaring's Attack.
  
• If Ursaring has Jolly nature after Toxic Orb activates, Ursaring can outspeed all Pokemon up to positive-natured 105 base Speed.

Usage Tips
========

• You don't want Ursaring to switch into any attack because of the nature of its moveset and its poor defensive typing, so it's best to switch Ursaring in when another teammate has fainted or on an obvious status move.
• Ursaring is used more as a late-game cleaner because of the lovely 1.5x boost to its Speed and its incredible Attack.

Team Options
========

• Ursaring appreciates entry hazard support in order to net crucial OHKOes and 2HKOes. So Pokemon that can set up hazards make great teammates for Ursaring. Garbodor and Golurk are examples of Pokemon who can support Ursaring, as they both resist Fighting-type attacks and can set up entry hazards. Golurk also threatens Rock- and Steel-type Pokemon that seek to wall Ursaring with Earthquake.
• Pokemon who can get rid of walls make great teammates for Ursaring. Mespirt has awesome coverage and threatens a ton of defensive Pokemon, such as Vileplume, Seismitoad, Rhydon, Garbodor, and more.

Other Options
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• Taunt to hinder walls like Audino.
• Swords Dance + Leftovers + Guts moveset
• Seed Bomb could be used over Earthquake or Close Combat on Guts Ursaring because it hits a few popular defensive Pokemon harder. Seed Bomb OHKOes Seismitoad, which isn't possible with an Adamant Toxic Orb boosted Facade. Seed Bomb also does 20% more damage (minimum) than Close Combat does to Rhydon.

Checks & Counters
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**Priority Attacks**: Ursaring is susceptible to being revenge KOed by Sucker Punch, Mach Punch, Aqua Jet, and Fake Out. If these Attacks don't KO Ursaring they will certainly cut into its longevity.

**Entry Hazards**: Ursaring is easily worn down because it's always poisoned or burned. Entry hazards cut into its logevity by adding damage every time Ursaring is switched in.

**Revenge Killers**: Ursaring is pretty slow without Quick Feet, so it's open to being KOed by any Pokemon that's faster than it. The Quick Feet variant is threatened by everything above base 105 Speed.

**Normal-type Resist**: Pokemon who resist or are immune to Facade cause problems for Ursaring. Rock / Steel / Ghost types can all switch in on Facade and threaten Ursaring. The Quick Feet variant lacks the power to break through bulky Rock-types and Steel-types.

 

[rob.]

Does play rough contradict / have any legality issues with gen 5 tutor moves? If not, it certainly deserves a mention somewhere for hitting spiritomb really hard.

Using a slot for a move that's only for one Pokemon is a waste.

Facade + Crunch + EQ / Close Combat gives Ursaring perfect coverage and are the only attacks it needs.

 

[LightningLuxray]

It's not a waste when you realize Spiritomb is an extremely prominent and popular Pokemon in NU.

It's not setworthy, though I don't see why it wouldn't deserve a Moves mention as long as it doesn't have any legality issues.

I mean hell if you're going to mention Seed Bomb in Moves might as well as mention Play Rough.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Using a slot for a move that's only for one Pokemon is a waste.

Facade + Crunch + EQ / Close Combat gives Ursaring perfect coverage and are the only attacks it needs.

Fair enough, I can agree with that. Normal + fighting coverage is pretty damn good, no skarm down here in NU to stop that.

 

[rob.]

It's not a waste when you realize Spiritomb is an extremely prominent and popular Pokemon in NU.

It's not setworthy, though I don't see why it wouldn't deserve a Moves mention as long as it doesn't have any legality issues.

I mean hell if you're going to mention Seed Bomb in Moves might as well as mention Play Rough.

It doesn't make any sense to use Play Rough over any of Ursarings coverage moves. Seed Bomb lacks some coverage and power but it still hits a couple of Ursarings checks / counters super effectively. Using Play Rough over EQ, Close Combat, or Seed Bomb would limit Ursaring's effectiveness because it fails to hit Rock-, Ground-, or Steel-types super effectively.

 

[LightningLuxray]

It doesn't make any sense to use Play Rough over any of Ursarings coverage moves. Seed Bomb lacks some coverage and power but it still hits a couple of Ursarings checks / counters super effectively. Using Play Rough over EQ, Close Combat, or Seed Bomb would limit Ursaring's effectiveness because it fails to hit Rock-, Ground-, or Steel-types super effectively.

Doesn't Play Rough do this exact same thing except with Spiritomb or am I missing something? @_@

 

[rob.]

Doesn't Play Rough do this exact same thing except with Spiritomb or am I missing something? @_@

Yes you are.

EQ - hits Rock, Steels (super effectively) that resist Facade

Close Combat - hits Rock, Steels (super effectively) that resist Facade

Seed Bomb - hits Rocks ((heres where the coverage drops)) (super effectively) while adding SE coverage to Water and Ground

Play Rough - does jack shit to anything besides Spiritomb and doesnt have any added benefits (Facade hits all Fighting and Dark types ((besides Spiritomb)) harder than Play Rough)

 

[LightningLuxray]

Yes you are.

EQ - hits Rock, Steels (super effectively) that resist Facade

Close Combat - hits Rock, Steels (super effectively) that resist Facade

Seed Bomb - hits Rocks ((heres where the coverage drops)) (super effectively) while adding SE coverage to Water and Ground

Play Rough - does jack shit to anything besides Spiritomb and doesnt have any added benefits (Facade hits all Fighting and Dark types ((besides Spiritomb)) harder than Play Rough)

The problem is super effective coverage against Water- and Ground-type is almost never worth giving up Steel-type coverage for. Just like how Facade hits all Fighting- and Dark-types, Facade also hits both of them neutrally. All Seed Bomb does is hit Rhydon and Golem, really, which combined are about as relevant as Spiritomb.

Seismitoad is, for the most part, largely irrelevant, considering you OHKO physically defensive with Facade after only a little bit of prior damage, and all other variants are OHKO'd with Facade regardless.

Again, probably missing something, but as of right now both of them seem to have about equal merit and probably deserve OO.

I'm kinda tired and don't really feel like arguing anymore about something that's pretty trivial so n_n

 

[Punchshroom]

I feel you're not giving Play Rough enough credit; it's really Ursaring's most notable advantage over Zangoose, which cannot really hurt Spritomb too much, so having the option of completely obliterating Tomb provides Ursaring a big niche. Guts Play Rough Urasing can OHKO physical Spiritomb, and easily do upwards of 75% to RestTalk variants; at that point, none of Tomb's teammates will stand up to Ursa's Normal + Fighting coverage.

Considering that Spiritomb is the most common Ghost-type in the tier, and Play Rough is still effective against the frailer Ghosts of the tier (>50% chance to OHKO Mismagius with Guts Play Rough), I don't see why Play Rough doesn't warrant merit. That said, Play Rough is likely more useful on the Guts set than it is on the Quick Feet set for a number of reasons:

- Guts Ursaring hardly has much speed, and its power is largely considered 'overkill' when Zangoose already hits hard enough against most targets that an Ursaring with Normal + Fighting + Dark coverage would want to hit, while still having good speed; this means that Guts Ursaring is on the verge of getting outclassed. I mean Seed Bomb is cute, but it's not like Zangoose has much trouble taking down Seed Bomb targets itself (or indeed, Ursaring can just pummel them with its regular moves if they are slightly weakened). You know what is one of the few Pokemon that doesn't take that much damage from Zangoose? Spiritomb. You know what is one of the few Pokemon Ursaring can hit that Zangoose can't? I think you get the point here, but if you don't make use of Play Rough on Guts Ursaring, you'd be better off just using a Zangoose instead.

- Now onto the reason as for why Play Rough is usable on Guts Ursaring and not Quick Feet Ursaring. Quick Feet Ursa now has the speed advantage over Zangoose, meaning it can outspeed the Ghosts that Zangoose cannot Quick Attack (Mismagius, Rotom, Haunter); Ursaring can now easily Crunch all of them. Play Rough is not as useful on this set since it no longer OHKOs physical Tomb (which can threaten with Foul Play or repeated Sucker Punches), and has a lesser chance of even 2HKOing CroTomb (which can Rest stall), making it much less effective.

In other words: Put Play Rough over Crunch as the third move on the Guts set, or if you insist on keeping Crunch then slash Crunch in the last slot. You can leave Quick Feet as it is.

 

[rob.]

Sure it's viable over Crunch on the Guts set but we were discussing using it over EQ or CC, which makes 0 sense imo. I'll slash it over Crunch tho n_n

 

[Punchshroom]

I knew you'd be tempted to slash Crunch after Play Rough, but I still would not recommend that. Play Rough is too important on Ursaring to be slashed alongside another move, and the only Ghosts that would wall Play Rough Ursaring would be Gourgeist-Super, Dusclops, and Dusknoir, but SuperGeist can easily avoid the 2HKO from Crunch with Leech Seed and/or Protect, and Crunch still doesn't 2HKO Dusclops, not to mention who the fuck uses the Dusks. If you really want to hit bulky Ghosts, you could either try to overcome them with Swords Dance (+2 Earthquake 2HKOes Dusclops, while +2 Play Rough 2HKOes SuperGeist and you can try using Swords Dance on Protects if you predict correctly), or just stick to Knock Off Zangoose.

P.S. This is done with Adamant Ursaring, which should be the first (probably only) nature as it is meant to wallbreak.

 

[rob.]

Opening this up for qc, not sure what else to add to C&C or OO.

 

[Kejmur]

Maybe mention Defensive SleepTalk in OO ? While it may look stupid at first, Guts is activated when it sleeps, so it hits hard even without investment (so unlike most RestTalkers he has the ability to hit hard) and Normal typing means that he can check offensive ghosts like Haunter and Mismagius. Also Fighting types don't really switch on it for free because of his good base attack (especially if you run Play Rough). Also this make him even better status absorber and he doesn't need to rely on crippling burn/toxic to get Guts boost. While 90/75/75 bulk isn't phenomenal, it's pretty decent when invested, so he can take a hit or two if neccesary and may act for example as a status absorber for balanced teams.

 

[Punchshroom]

• Protect gives Ursaring a free turn to activate its Toxic Orb or Flame Orb.
• Swords Dance could be used over Protect but leaves Ursaring susceptible to attack.

It would be better to go more in-depth into this instead of merely stating the obvious. Explain what the free turn of Protect does for Ursaring (activates Guts without taking damage from faster Pokemon), and also what Swords Dance does for Ursaring (boosts its OHKOing potential, meaning it can take out more Pokemon before succumbing to its status orb).

You could mention Crunch over Seed Bomb on Guts Ursa (Seed Bomb could probably be OO), but explain that Ursaring's non-attacking moves in the 4th slot (Protect and Swords Dance) are more useful for consistency, and Zangoose should be considered instead if other bulky Ghosts aside from Spiritomb are bigger problems.

Toxic Orb is slashed over Flame Orb because four turns of residual poison damage is less than four turns of burn damage.

This is false, only 3 turns of Toxic damage do less than 3 turns of burn damage. While Protect Ursaring can make use of either Orb, Swords Dance Ursaring would greatly prefer Flame Orb since it tends to stick around for longer to wallbreak.

 

[rob.]

It would be better to go more in-depth into this instead of merely stating the obvious. Explain what the free turn of Protect does for Ursaring (activates Guts without taking damage from faster Pokemon), and also what Swords Dance does for Ursaring (boosts its OHKOing potential, meaning it can take out more Pokemon before succumbing to its status orb).

You could mention Crunch over Seed Bomb on Guts Ursa (Seed Bomb could probably be OO), but explain that Ursaring's non-attacking moves in the 4th slot (Protect and Swords Dance) are more useful for consistency, and Zangoose should be considered instead if other bulky Ghosts aside from Spiritomb are bigger problems.


This is false, only 3 turns of Toxic damage do less than 3 turns of burn damage. While Protect Ursaring can make use of either Orb, Swords Dance Ursaring would greatly prefer Flame Orb since it tends to stick around for longer to wallbreak.

I was trying to save face since this is just an outline for the future in-depth analysis, and ah right idk what I was thinking, on the fourth turn the damage is equal.

I feel as though Swords Dance shouldn't deserve a slash on Guts Ursaring. Mostly because it will lack the opportunity to actually use the boost since the opponent will more than likely switch in a faster threat to revenge KO Ursaring. Maybe mention another attack after Protect? Or even Taunt to prevent Leech Seed from Tangela, Ferro, or Gourgeist. Or to stop bulky Rock-types from setting up SR before KOing. Or just to stop slower mons from using any status moves. I've also moved Seed Bomb to OO.

 

[Punchshroom]

I feel as though Swords Dance shouldn't deserve a slash on Guts Ursaring. Mostly because it will lack the opportunity to actually use the boost since the opponent will more than likely switch in a faster threat to revenge KO Ursaring. Maybe mention another attack after Protect? Or even Taunt to prevent Leech Seed from Tangela, Ferro, or Gourgeist. Or to stop bulky Rock-types from setting up SR before KOing. Or just to stop slower mons from using any status moves. I've also moved Seed Bomb to OO.

Swords Dance is also important on Ursaring since it lets it utterly thrash slower, bulkier teams, which is what Ursaring is supposed to do anyway. It has a niche over Swords Dance Zangoose since Goose is forced to run Toxic Orb, which can cut its wallbreaking rampage short, while Ursaring can stay around for a bit longer since burn does not add up as quickly. Yes, you're going to have to resign to the fact that Guts Ursaring will have limited use against faster teams (Protect doesn't help that much), but that's what you're getting into when you're using Guts Ursaring over Zangoose in the first place, so you might as well strengthen its matchup against the teams that it does have an advantage against.

Taunt will hardly benefit Ursaring at all when compared to Swords Dance's uses. The opponent would have absolutely no reason to status Ursaring when it already does that to itself, so they wouldn't bother. Bulky Rock-types would most likely try to take down Ursaring instead of setting up SR so that their teammates wouldn't get pummeled, so it is usually very risky to Taunt them (and usually, them setting up SR on your side is usually less pressuring than having to face an untouched Ursaring). Not to mention that even with a successful Taunt, Ursaring would still be taking slight damage that turn, whereas a failed Taunt would result in massive damage for basically no reason, meaning Ursaring wouldn't get to do much at all. Any opponents that try to heal stall can be taken advantage of with Swords Dance, allowing you to blow right past their recovery. Swords Dance also punishes Protect users and pivot switching (common methods to wear down Ursaring), which Taunt fails against. Take, for instance:

+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 328-387 (98.49 - 116.21%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Sure, the Tangela Leech Seeded you, now what the hell do they do? If Tangela has a 7/8 chance to get OHKOed by +2 Facade, what chance does its teammates have against that kind of sheer power? Ursaring is threatening enough that most bulky Pokemon wouldn't dilly-dally around it, making Taunt that much less useful, and in situations where Taunt may work, Swords Dance would usually serve Ursaring better.

 

[Blast]

Close Combat should be the only slash on both sets. Coverage on Ferroseed is too important and EQ was really only for Metang last gen iirc which is irrelevant now.

Jolly should be the only nature for QF, the Speed is necessary for outspeeding base 95s - base 106s. SD should also be the primary slash imo since it really needs it to be relevant against defensive teams. I'd make a quick mention of Play Rough here too; hitting Spiritomb is really nice since it 2HKOes and it can still kill most frailer Ghosts like Missy and Rotom after an SD. Put it in Moves.

In UT for both sets Ursaring doesn't have "poor defenses" lol, if anything it just dislikes switching in due to its lack of resistances + poison damage.

 

[rob.]

I don't think ferroseed deserves it's own slot in c&c, as both sets have close combat with nothing else slashed next to it. Idk if the quick feet sets CC will 2hko, but I'd assume the guts variant does.

It does deserve its own slot because it's an effective and popular supporting Pokemon, and without Close Combat it would wall both movesets.

Also.

252 Atk Ursaring Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 136-160 (46.5 - 54.7%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 220-260 (75.3 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Punchshroom]

Ferroseed alone likely doesn't deserve its own slot in C&C (other Rocks or Steels can fit in this criteria), and you'll still need to rephrase it: Ferroseed indeed doesn't wall Ursaring since there isn't any instance where Ursaring isn't using Close Combat. Instead, talk about Ferroseed putting more pressure on Ursaring to predict correctly if it does not want to take extra damage from Iron Barbs alongside its status damage. Other Rock- or Steel-types, such as Rhydon, Steelix, and defensive Solid Rock Carracosta can also apply pressure on Ursaring (albeit less than Ferroseed) by switching into any attack but Close Combat and threaten back with damage. Even Ghost-types can force Ursaring to not spam Facade liberally, as they can make use of the free turn switching into a failed Facade and make use of status damage to inch Ursa into KO range; such examples include Golurk, Rotom, and even Spiritomb itself.

It'd be better to just fit a general "Normal-type resist" in C&C, throw Ferroseed in there alongside the other Rocks / Steels / Ghosts I've mentioned, and mention that they can all check Ursaring provided they do not switch into the wrong move. In fact, the Rocks and Steels I've mentioned, as well as the rare physically defensive Golurk, outright counter the Quick Feet variant, as it doesn't have the power of Guts to break through them.

Sawk doesn't need its own section, just lump it into revenge killers while giving it a mention as examples of Pokes that revenge Ursaring especially well (alongside maybe Primeape). Also list down revenge killers that outspeed even Quick Feet Ursaring, such as Archeops, Tauros, Sceptile (really, just about everything with 110 Speed and above) and various Choice Scarfers.

 

[rob.]

Lol ok added

 

[Punchshroom]

You also want to be careful with your phrasing: Rock / Steel type implies Probopass (and Bastiodon but irrelevant), which gets destroyed by Close Combat. Rephrase into 'Rock-types and Steel-types'.

 

[Punchshroom]

Mmmm yeah, now that Spiritomb is gone, I am not sure if Guts Ursaring is worth it anymore. Everything Guts Ursaring can outspeed will also be smashed by Zangoose. I know you've put a lot of work into this, but I think it's time to retire Guts Ursaring as a set; there is little to no reason to use it over Zangoose.

On the plus side, the Quick Feet set is still viable for outspeeding the fast Ghosts that Zangoose cannot take out. That set can stay.

 

[Ares]

Mmmm yeah, now that Spiritomb is gone, I am not sure if Guts Ursaring is worth it anymore. Everything Guts Ursaring can outspeed will also be smashed by Zangoose. I know you've put a lot of work into this, but I think it's time to retire Guts Ursaring as a set; there is little to no reason to use it over Zangoose.

On the plus side, the Quick Feet set is still viable for outspeeding the fast Ghosts that Zangoose cannot take out. That set can stay.

The nice thing that Guts has over Zangoose is survivability of Flame Orb, dont know if this is enough to warrant keeping the set. I think that there should be some testing of Guts now that tomb is gone before we remove it entirely.

 

[Martin]

With Spiritomb gone there is literally zero reason to run Play Rough on the Guts set anymore (assuming you keep it). Crunch is more deserving of the slot now that Play Rough has lost its only target.

 

[Raseri]

dropped