XY UU Viability Ranking Thread

[trc]

C Rank subdivisions usually attract a lot of attention in terms of subjective placement, and is often irrelevant due to the niche nature of these Pokemon.

That being said, there will definitely be obvious cases where one Pokemon in the mega C Rank is better than another, so expect people suggesting raises with their justification being that one Pokemon is comparatively better than the others in its rank.

 

[KM]

Yeah, but the way we're going to describe the mega-c rank will be such that it is essentially reserved for stuff with small (but actually usable and relevant) niches. the way the old rankings worked was that it allowed for stuff that was only viable in very niche situations (and by people who don't need to consult a viability thread to build).

instead of portraying these pokemon (many of the pokemon in the c rankings, and basically all of the ones in d rankings) as meaningful and relevant threats that just aren't quite good enough, i think it would be better to just disregard them entirely. in my eyes, the viability thread should mostly reflect the teambuilding process of a good player in a tier - niche shit will occasionally be used because it just works in that specific setting, but that doesn't suddenly make it any better for the general populace.

 

[Shiruba]

Can there not be a Pokemon that is tiered lowly to discourage people from using it? It is entirely possible that if one is using x on their team, having had success with it on the lower ladder or something, and then sees that it is not listed, they could assume that it's just an underrated threat and leave it at that. Naturally you're not going to include Pokemon such as Braixen and Kirlia (m-muh waifu), but bad, albeit popular, trends in the metagame could be addressed a la fifth gen Ubers Charizard and current RU (or has Hitmonchan dropped?) as D or a flat-out "it's useless shit, don't use it" rank.

 

[KM]

the reason for having a tier like that historically in other tiers (see: ru) is to warn people that pokemon inside the tier (e.g. with UU usage) shouldn't be used. In the case of UU, I can think of no pokemon who would be any lower than a C rank in my eyes - for pokemon with UU usage, that is. I'm not going to get into the business of ranking mostly unviable shit from lower tiers, because it'll be based on little experience and a lot of theorymonning, which is what i'm trying to get away from

 

[Sleepless]

In below B- ranks, usualy reside fantastic and unique pokemon to use in Dark Horse challanges, that require more support than others and even teambuilding around them but perform greatly. I think the C rank(s?) should stay if only for that reason, letting others see what works as Dark Horse/underrated and to acknowledge's others success of performing greatly with such Dark Horse/underrated 'mons.

 

[RyanKoopa]

• D rank will be removed, and the C ranks will be compressed into one large C rank (no + and -). This acknowledges the fact that fucking no one uses anything below B, so you can hardly have a reasonable ranking as no one has experience with it.

That's not true and you know it. There are plenty of pokemon in the C Rank, such as Porygon 2, Shuckle and Ditto, that see use on serious high ladder teams.

 

[KM]

ditto was only used in response to broken suspects that will leave the tier, and wasn't seen much anyway. i have yet to see a single competitive team use shuckle or p2 so yeah...


and even if there are high-level players using pokes in the c ranks, that's not really a reason to delineate them. the goal is to clearly show to new players (who will actually be using the viability thread as a resource and not just for fun) which pokemon they should be considering primarily to put on their team. I trust high-leveled players to know themselves how viable a niche pokemon like ditto would be on their team without having to consult a viability ranking, but I don't want to convince people that we have a degree of accuracy that allows us to delineate between c+ / c / c- for pokemon that very few people have relevant experience using

 

[RyanKoopa]

I still think we should split C rank into at least two parts. Because there are C rank mons with legitimate niches that can be fitted onto teams without a ton of effort, and then there are C mons that do have a niche but can only be used with heavy support and a team built around it.

I'm all for getting rid of D rank though. There isn't a single mon there who isn't garbage.

 

[Jellied Eels]

I think most of the issue with the lower ranks comes from the fact that the burden of proof concerning the (de)ranking of a pokemon is assumed to be on the wrong side ; that is to say, that once a mon gets onto the viability ranking it can not be removed until you prove that it really is entirely too shitty to be there, whereas it should only work the other way around. This is especially problematic because of the "it's not entirely outclassed" argument that can be construed for basically any pokemon besides like pre evolutions.
This might not be feasible but I think it would be a positive change if, once a pokemon's ranking is challenged (by an intelligent and knowledgeable post of course) then it is up to those who think it should still be listed to make a compelling argument.
just my two cents~

edit : this would also solve some of the bandwagoning issues that necessarily come hand in hand with a thread like this one

 

[RyanKoopa]

I think most of the issue with the lower ranks comes from the fact that the burden of proof concerning the (de)ranking of a pokemon is assumed to be on the wrong side ; that is to say, that once a mon gets onto the viability ranking it can not be removed until you prove that it really is entirely too shitty to be there, whereas it should only work the other way around. This is especially problematic because of the "it's not entirely outclassed" argument that can be construed for basically any pokemon besides like pre evolutions.
This might not be feasible but I think it would be a positive change if, once a pokemon's ranking is challenged (by an intelligent and knowledgeable post of course) then it is up to those who think it should still be listed to make a compelling argument.
just my two cents~

edit : this would also solve some of the bandwagoning issues that necessarily come hand in hand with a thread like this one

Honestly I believe this is a very risky proposal. While it's true that the current system has led to some mons who shouldn't have ranks getting ranked, we don't want to go the other direction and have mons who deserve a rank getting unranked. We need to find some sort of middle ground

 

[Schpoonman]

Honestly I believe this is a very risky proposal. While it's true that the current system has led to some mons who shouldn't have ranks getting ranked, we don't want to go the other direction and have mons who deserve a rank getting unranked. We need to find some sort of middle ground

I'm with Jellied Eels on this, actually.

I'm going to use Ninjask as an example, hopefully Limitless isn't still watching this thread because I really want to make an argument here and not be infracted for it. It's been argued multiple times that Ninjask is 99.99% outclassed by Combusken, to the point where it is to your MASSIVE detriment to use it over Combusken. According to some people, Ninjask's ability to also Defog warrants it a spot on the viability rankings when it almost certainly doesn't deserve a spot.

A compelling argument for keeping a Pokemon on the viability rankings makes MUCH more sense. This isn't the Council voting on whether or not Alakazamite should be kept (to address a complaint that once something goes BL it's extremely difficult for it to come back), there's nothing actually stopping someone who can make Ninjask work, but it's more likely that a newbie will be using something like Hydreigon that's good in the metagame before they move to something that requires extremely high-level play.

 

[Machi]

That's not true and you know it. There are plenty of pokemon in the C Rank, such as Porygon 2, Shuckle and Ditto, that see use on serious high ladder teams.

One thing you have to consider about the C rank pokemon on high ladder teams, e.g. Whimsicott, is that they tend to be used more for purposes of countering a team, as higher ladder play has less players and a higher likelihood of bumping into the same old, so if they are used by higher level players it is for very specific niche - i.e. not something a new player should just slap on carelessly without knowledge of the metagame. I don't think this particularly means that the said mons are better than they actually are but they do hold very unique qualities (typing/abilities/movepool) that higher level players appreciate, especially when they play against each other and a trump card makes all the difference.

 

[KM]

let's try and not derail this thread back into a discussion about he and she who shall not be named, much less mis-represent and distort that discussion.

but yes, we'll be erring on the side of less rather than more. the goal is not to prove that a pokemon is usable in the metagame, but rather that it is or should be relevant to the metagame.

 

[Metal Sonic]

ditto was only used in response to broken suspects that will leave the tier, and wasn't seen much anyway. i have yet to see a single competitive team use shuckle or p2 so yeah...


and even if there are high-level players using pokes in the c ranks, that's not really a reason to delineate them. the goal is to clearly show to new players (who will actually be using the viability thread as a resource and not just for fun) which pokemon they should be considering primarily to put on their team. I trust high-leveled players to know themselves how viable a niche pokemon like ditto would be on their team without having to consult a viability ranking, but I don't want to convince people that we have a degree of accuracy that allows us to delineate between c+ / c / c- for pokemon that very few people have relevant experience using

I have seen many players using p2 while I was laddering on my 1750 alt. shuckle was less common but I can testify that high-ranked people actually do use it.
RyanKoopa's point is valid; if we are really going to throw all the mons of a certain ranking to the trash, then we'd better be seeing the useful ones get a promotion. Such as Porygon2 - should have be ranked higher to recognize that it IS a viable pokemon in the tier.

 

[Machi]

I have seen many players using p2 while I was laddering on my 1750 alt. shuckle was less common but I can testify that high-ranked people actually do use it.
RyanKoopa's point is valid; if we are really going to throw all the mons of a certain ranking to the trash, then we'd better be seeing the useful ones get a promotion. Such as Porygon2 - should have be ranked higher to recognize that it IS a viable pokemon in the tier.

Or they could just revamp the definition of C rank to more accurately asses the tier.

 

[dingbat]

Or they could just revamp the definition of C rank to more accurately asses the tier.

That's exactly what I proposed, but for every rank definition, not just the C rank one :]

 

[Machi]

That's exactly what I proposed, but for every rank definition, not just the C rank one :]

Well C rank seems to be the one getting the major overhaul though. The other tiers could probably follow suite but I think it is just less messy to focus on C rank for now since it will be assessed more differently in that it won't have the nuances of a low/mid/high ranking anymore, whereas with the other tiers still retain the nuances to supplement the existing definition.

 

[soviet]

i support wh0sy0urpapa as the new viability thread leader

also i support him becoming the new uu tier leader as well, he seems very knowledgeable on the current state of the metagame

 

[Calloflochie]

Ok, so myself, Kitten Milk and Bouffalant have basically gone through the list of Pokemon currently in the Viability Ranking and placed them based on our own perception of where they should be. This is to reflect the LAST metagame before the change of Slowbro, Mew, Heracross etc leaving and is going to be the final major change before the new thread is opened. With that being said, i'll be handling the changes from S Rank - A Rank;

Blissey to A

Chandelure to A

Krookodile to A

Mienshao to A

Swampert to A

Shaymin to A

Jirachi to A+

That is all for me, feel free to ask any questions but we won't be changing too much since this is going to just be a wrap up of the metagame unless someone posts an amazingly compelling argument as to why it should be changed then we might change it.


P.S. Kitten Sucks

 

[KM]

moving to a-

mola
cune
tornadus

moving to b+

aggron
aroma
rose
umbreon
virizion
entei

moving to b

arcanine
azelf
honch
darm
noivern
rotom-h
rhyperior
kingdra
raikou
melo
whims
yanmega

p.s. i will be working on the spreadsheet tomorrow as this will be more or less the final rankings other than some pokes which I will drop completely out of the list (will talk about that tomorrow as well)

 

[Bouff]

Moving to B-:

Moving to C:

(are u happy omfuga)

im so fancy

 

[KM]

The following Pokemon will be removed from the list entirely:

barbaracle
delphox
shiftry
swellow
uxie
seismitoad
lilligant
gourgeist-super
cryogonal
claydol
ambipom
spiritomb
sceptile
moltres
liepard
lanturn
hitmontop
bronzong

this is going to require some form of explanation, so yeah, here you go. Every pokemon on this list is either 100% directly outclassed by something above it, or it fulfills a niche so small and insignificant in the UU metagame that I don't want it to be represented. While usage obviously has little bearing on viability, I also see it as counter-productive and slightly deceptive to list pokemon like the ones above as relevant to the UU metagame when they really are not. They are not Pokemon that you account for while teambuilding, and they are only used in situations so niche that anyone who has the skill to be able to use them effectively would not need to consult a viability guide.

Spreadsheet to come later today.

 

[Xyldaz]

The following Pokemon will be removed from the list entirely:

barbaracle
delphox
shiftry
swellow
uxie
seismitoad
lilligant
gourgeist-super
cryogonal
claydol
ambipom
spiritomb
sceptile
moltres
liepard
lanturn
hitmontop
bronzong

this is going to require some form of explanation, so yeah, here you go. Every pokemon on this list is either 100% directly outclassed by something above it, or it fulfills a niche so small and insignificant in the UU metagame that I don't want it to be represented. While usage obviously has little bearing on viability, I also see it as counter-productive and slightly deceptive to list pokemon like the ones above as relevant to the UU metagame when they really are not. They are not Pokemon that you account for while teambuilding, and they are only used in situations so niche that anyone who has the skill to be able to use them effectively would not need to consult a viability guide.

Spreadsheet to come later today.

So Avalugg is staying on the list but Moltres is not ? Moltres is one of the best wallbreakers in the tier thanks to its secondary flying STAB, and even though it's walled by M-Aero, it can use will-o to lure it in and ease the sweep of pokes that could be revenged by it.

Also, Shiftry is a great defogger and it has the ability to come easily on Slowbro which is probably the premier physical wall. It also has priority which allows him to check pokes like Victini or Starmie, I think it should stay on the list too.

 

[KM]

for all practical purposes, moltres is outclassed by chandelure, who isn't completely fucked over by special walls like blissey (sets up on it with subcm, or tricks it scarf), isn't 4x weak to rocks, and has a far more useful defensive typing. there is very little reason to use Moltres in this meta.

shiftry is just underwhelming, idk how else to put it. it's just not that good of a defogger as it isn't really that tanky and its coverage is only decent. it just has no effect on the meta, and so it doesn't really deserve to be ranked. compelling evidence that it's more than just a useless niche would change my mind, but I haven't seen any

 

[Xyldaz]

I wouldn't say Moltres is completly outclassed by Chandelure, as it is immune to ground, isn't weak to Knock Off and has access to reliable recovery. The x4 weakness to rocks is unfortunate but with all the excellent defoggers and Rapid Spinners in UU right now, it's not that big of a deal.

Shiftry isn't the best defogger but it's really decent. It might not have the best coverage but it has what it needs, and if it really wants to it can run Low Kick to deal with Hydreigon, Houndoom and Lucario (even though it's difficult to find room for it) And if a pokemon doesn't shape the meta it doesn't mean that it isn't viable