Type Control (Playable on Aqua and Pandora)

[Adrian Marin]

NEW SUSPECT:​

Electric/Ghost (Porygon-Z) @ Leftovers
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt/Discharge
- Substitute

Since the metagame is currently leaning towards bulky walls, Porygon-Z has a very easy time switching in and setting up against offense and stall teams alike. Chansey and Clefable are literally the only Pokemon can take all variants reasonably well, but still struggle against it when it sets a Substitute. Porygon-Z seems to be broken at the moment, and is currently overcentralising the metagame, so I think it should be banned. Let me know your opinions.


Please provide reasonable arguments for/against it.

 

[Ransei]

Porygon Z has the Defense and SP Defense as paper. It can be countered easily by alot of the pokemon that are Sp Defensive or Faster

 

[Halliday]

It shouldn't be banned due to having reliable counters, and because despite that, it is one of offenses only weapons against stall and is a major part of keeping the playstyle in check. Without it, the meta just leans more and more defensively, and although you want that Adrian, it makes for a less overly desirable metagame, as generally one where every playstyle is at least somewhat viable is best.

 

[Adrian Marin]

It shouldn't be banned due to having reliable counters, and because despite that, it is one of offenses only weapons against stall and is a major part of keeping the playstyle in check. Without it, the meta just leans more and more defensively, and although you want that Adrian, it makes for a less overly desirable metagame, as generally one where every playstyle is at least somewhat viable is best.

Porygon-Z does not have reliable counters that excel at defeating much else, which showcases its effectiveness. Additionally, you're ignoring the fact that Porygon-Z also works really well against offensive teams, as it has an easy time switching in against many Pokemon commonly seen in offense.

 

[RotomPoison]

Think of it like Specs Chandelure in UU, if it gets in for free on something it threatens, something is dying. Problem is this thing is just about as strong and can boost. You can even run Agility to sweep if you wanted, it's really good but I'm not convinced it's broken.

Adrian you should make a council and add me btw

 

[Kit Kasai]

Yeah, Pory has a decent enough speed tier to function well against offense. Once it has a sub up there are no reliable offensive checks to it.

 

[Halliday]

Porygon-Z does not have reliable counters that excel at defeating much else, which showcases its effectiveness. Additionally, you're ignoring the fact that Porygon-Z also works really well against offensive teams, as it has an easy time switching in against many Pokemon commonly seen in offense.

Ghost / Dark blissey walls the specs set, and clefable walls the set up set. And porygon Z does not do well against offense due to low speed and a lack of bulk.It can't sponge hits, and any set that isn't ohko'd by common moves such as facade is KO'd by knock off instead

 

[Halliday]

No, obviously, but offense doesn't have nearly as many issues with PZ, and stall needs to be able to wall common threats. Beating PZ is included in that.

 

[Adrian Marin]

Ghost / Dark blissey walls the specs set, and clefable walls the set up set. And porygon Z does not do well against offense due to low speed and a lack of bulk.It can't sponge hits, and any set that isn't ohko'd by common moves such as facade is KO'd by knock off instead

Porygon-Z does well against offense, because offense tends to use a few passive Pokemon, and the metagame is generally leaning towards bulky Pokemon. Also, here's a replay of Porygon-Z defeating Clefable 1v1 thanks to its ability to destroy counters with Discharge: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pandora-typecontrol-1053499

 

[RotomPoison]

Ghost / Dark blissey walls the specs set, and clefable walls the set up set. And porygon Z does not do well against offense due to low speed and a lack of bulk.It can't sponge hits, and any set that isn't ohko'd by common moves such as facade is KO'd by knock off instead

"lack of bulk"

252 Atk Flygon Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Porygon-Z: 220-259 (70.7 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Flygon Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 154-183 (63.9 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

90 is really good, and this thing is versatile enough (NP, Agility, Specs, Scarf) to be considered broken, but bulk is not a reason something isn't broken.

 

[skies]

I'd like to point that while we're talking about that set specifically, all Normal / Ground Pokemon wall it to hell and back. I run this type combo on Dragonite and it does excel at countering this set and it also does so much more. Normal / Ground is a good offensive combo, but it's not seen that much, but it does 100% counter that set.

 

[Adrian Marin]

I'd like to point that while we're talking about that set specifically, all Normal / Ground Pokemon wall it to hell and back. I run this type combo on Dragonite and it does excel at countering this set and it also does so much more. Normal / Ground is a good offensive combo, but it's not seen that much, but it does 100% counter that set.

Bear in mind that this is not the only effective set Porygon-Z can run; Ice Beam grants very useful coverage, and can also be used as a STAB move. This isn't Victim of The Week, i'm suspecting Porygon-Z as a whole, and Porygon-Z can run all kinds of sets.

 

[Ransei]

Porygon Z's STAB moves are not really going to be as powerful as if it was just normal so...It has a less chance of OHKOing and like i said before.....paper defense.

 

[Halliday]

Porygon-Z does well against offense, because offense tends to use a few passive Pokemon, and the metagame is generally leaning towards bulky Pokemon. Also, here's a replay of Porygon-Z defeating Clefable 1v1 thanks to its ability to destroy counters with Discharge: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pandora-typecontrol-1053499

You want to ban something based on the fact that it can HAX something to death? I'm sorry, but that's unreasonable

 

[skies]

Bear in mind that this is not the only effective set Porygon-Z can run; Ice Beam grants very useful coverage, and can also be used as a STAB move. This isn't Victim of The Week, i'm suspecting Porygon-Z as a whole, and Porygon-Z can run all kinds of sets.

• 252+ SpA Porygon-Z Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 111-131 (34.3 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
• 252+ SpA Adaptability [ICE-TYPE] Porygon-Z Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 222-262 (68.7 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Porygon-Z: 196-232 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Porygon-Z: 246-291 (79 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It doesn't even matter, Porygon-Z doesn't beat it unless it has an Ice typing.

 

[Adrian Marin]

• 252+ SpA Porygon-Z Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 111-131 (34.3 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
• 252+ SpA Adaptability [ICE-TYPE] Porygon-Z Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 222-262 (68.7 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Porygon-Z: 196-232 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Porygon-Z: 246-291 (79 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It doesn't even matter, Porygon-Z doesn't beat it unless it has an Ice typing.

This is really only provided if Dragonite has its Multiscale intact if it uses an ice typing. Additionally, Dragonite would naturally have to switch-in against it to counter it, so Porygon-Z can set a Substitute or a Nasty Plot to defeat it. Still, Dragonite will defeat this set in particular most of the time, but it's undeniable that Porygon-Z is centralising and is incredibly hard to check/counter.

You want to ban something based on the fact that it can HAX something to death? I'm sorry, but that's unreasonable

I wouldn't really consider a 30% chance to paralyse Pokemon with Discharge to be hax. People use Scald for a reason; it burns often, and it works well.

 

[Ghoul King]

Want a specific Pokemon for Hail? Done! Want a specific Pokemon for Sand? Done! Want that Sandstorm Pokemon to get the Special Defense boost? Done!

Malamar with STAB on its Superpowers and no U-Turn double weakness.

Volcarona can just dump its Bug typing in favor of Psychic, or Grass and thus reduce its Stealth Rock weakness while jumping ship from Fire/Bug STAB to Fire/Psychic or Fire/Grass STAB, either of which are more synergistic. Or you can take a type that resists Rock outright, if you don't care about other STABs.

The million and one crappy Normal types with insane coverage, good stats, and no ability to really use it? Fear them. Fear Ambipom and Tauros and...

Tyrantrum can suddenly stack STAB onto Crunch and one of its Fang moves. (Probably Fire or Poison)

Mega Blastoise or Clawitzer with STAB on the non-crappy Mega Launcher moves. (Dark, Dragon, or Fighting. Unfortunate that they're all weak to Fairy) Blastoise does get Flash Cannon for anti-Fairy coverage though.

Bug/Steel Heatran, or any other Flashfire Pokemon, for giggles.

Vespiquen with a non-crappy type combination!

The possibilities are amazing.

I'd like to say Stealth Rock might drop off in use if everybody is always resistant to it anyway, and then I remember Shedinja can just pretend to be Wonderpion with an Air Balloon and I'm sad.

 

[Kit Kasai]

You want to ban something based on the fact that it can HAX something to death? I'm sorry, but that's unreasonable

shaymin

actually, it's completely reasonable, but not exactly for the reason adrian said.
As you saw, Pory-Z can 3HKO Clefable, which is the most reliable "counter" for pory. Clefable has no way of KOing Pory without sacrificing itself, which in the process causes the rest of the team to fall apart. So the only option is to attack and recover in between attacks. If the pory has leftovers, they can basically worst case scenario sub every 3 turns, which basically gives them 16 turns to live. (this is worst case scenario. Best case scenario, they can sub indefinitely). The chance of you not getting a paralyze in those 16 turns is 0.3%.

EDIT 1: You would only Attack 2/3 of those turns since you're subbing the other time, so that would make it 10 turns:

so... about 2.8% to not paralyze

EDIT 2:

Normal / Dark (Noivern) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Boomburst
- Dark Pulse
- U-turn
- Switcheroo

252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Porygon-Z (Ghost Type): 408-480 (131.1 - 154.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Porygon-Z (Not Ghost Type): 355-418 (114.1 - 134.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Emerald Master]

shaymin

actually, it's completely reasonable, but not exactly for the reason adrian said.
As you saw, Pory-Z can 3HKO Clefable, which is the most reliable "counter" for pory. Clefable has no way of KOing Pory without sacrificing itself, which in the process causes the rest of the team to fall apart. So the only option is to attack and recover in between attacks. If the pory has leftovers, they can basically worst case scenario sub every 3 turns, which basically gives them 16 turns to live. (this is worst case scenario. Best case scenario, they can sub indefinitely). The chance of you not getting a paralyze in those 16 turns is 0.3%.

EDIT 1: You would only Attack 2/3 of those turns since you're subbing the other time, so that would make it 10 turns:

so... about 2.8% to not paralyze

EDIT 2:

Normal / Dark (Noivern) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Boomburst
- Dark Pulse
- U-turn
- Switcheroo

252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Porygon-Z (Ghost Type): 408-480 (131.1 - 154.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Porygon-Z (Not Ghost Type): 355-418 (114.1 - 134.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Finally! I've been waiting for people to realize how good Noivern is against some of the top-tier threats in many OMs while also being able to pull it's own weight

 

[Red Cat]

Adrian Marin creates a meta favorable to stall and then wants to ban anything remotely threatening to stall lol. Here are the types which resist Electric + Ghost: Normal / Ground, Normal / Electric, Normal / Dragon, Normal / Grass, Dark / Ground, Dark / Electric, Dark / Dragon, and Dark / Grass. Certainly at least one of those options is at least a decent defensive typing? You could also run Shadow Ball on Ghost / Dark or Ghost / Normal Blissey. Like it has been said here before, Porygon-Z doesn't do well against offensive teams unless it has Agility, but then it has trouble against stall without Substitute.

I don't think there have been enough battles in this meta to prove that Porygon-Z is broken. One of the traps of this meta is to get fooled into thinking you have to run some combination of Ghost, Steel, Fairy, Dark, and Poison on everything. Because these types are so popular, other types are good for being anti-meta. Offensive threats can get past defensive threats by running underrated type combinations to kill the most common defensive threats while defensive threats can run underrated defensive type combinations to wall the most popular offensive threats. This meta is still in its infancy; let people use their creativity to find ways to stop the top threats before you start swinging the ban hammer around just because you lost to something once or twice. Building a stall team shouldn't be a thoughtless exercise where you can just slap Avalugg + 5 pink Pokemon on a team and expect them to wall everything. The Pokedex is really fucking big and there are a lot of Pokemon which suck in normal competitive play mainly because of their shitty typing. This meta should be about encouraging creativity instead of destroying it with reckless bans.

 

[Kit Kasai]

All those typings you mentioned are destroyed by landorus.

 

[canno]

Where's the love for Articuno? I know it's offensive movepool is kind of shit, but its support movepool is pretty good actually with moves such as Heal Bell, Roar, Haze, and U-Turn, along with reliable recovery and really solid 90/100/125 bulk. It can even be used offensively - although its offensive movepool is pretty barren, it's got enough moves to make something work, and its offensive stats aren't too shabby.

As for the Porygon-Z ban, I honestly much rather we look at Lando-I for a ban before Porygon-Z, as I feel it is far more broken than Porygon-Z.

 

[Kit Kasai]

If you look at my little exchange with Adrian above, you'll see lando has many more reliable counters than porygon

 

[canno]

More Counters =/= Less Broken

see: BW Hydreigon

 

[Red Cat]

Here are some calcs (these both assume neutral damage):

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 214-252 (32.8 - 38.6%) -- 4.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey in Sun: 220-261 (33.7 - 40%) -- 32.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

So Zard-Y has more turn 1 power than Specs Porygon-Z with its most powerful move. Banning Porygon-Z because of its raw power would be stupid. An advantage Porygon-Z has over Zard-Y in this meta is the ability to boost with Nasty Plot, but that doesn't change the fact that it can still be countered by Blissey with STAB Shadow Ball. This was just for comparison. The post I really wanted to respond to was this:

All those typings you mentioned are destroyed by landorus.

The fact that Porygon-Z and Landrous may not share a single common counter does not make either broken. Name one Pokemon in OU which counters both Mega Charizard-Y and Keldeo. Just because they don't share a counter does not make them broken. In type control, you can use Ghost / Normal Blissey to counter Pory-Z and Ghost / Fairy Chansey to counter Landorus. Hell, you don't even have to give a shit about Keldeo because both are immune to Sacred Sword. I can't even think of one special attacker which can break through both Chansey and Blissey in type control, and in OU you have to usually run at least three separate counters to deal with Zard-Y, Keldeo, and Landorus, so stall has a pretty good deal here in comparison. Combine those two with Avalugg which walls the vast majority of physical threats, and you have most of the meta countered with three teamslots to spare. You can use these three teamslots to patch up vulnerabilities to setup sweepers, Taunt / Substitute, and anything else which gives your stall team problems. I think the main problem with Adrian Marin's team is that it is too passive. Why the hell does he need Cress on his team when he already has Chansey + Blissey + Avalugg? He could replace that with something which can actually do some damage to deal with Pokemon to give stall problems. He could probably also replace Mew with something that is more immediately threatening. In OU or in any meta, you can't just rely on Toxic and Stealth Rock to do damage because other players will use Taunt, Substitute, Magic Guard, Poison Heal, etc. so you have to prepare for that when building a stall team. Stall doesn't need any extra help from banning Porygon-Z, Landorus, or Gliscor because wallbreakers and stallbreakers are part of any meta and stall teams should be expected to find a way around them.

I don't really think Porygon-Z is broken against offensive teams either. It has mediorce speed, no priority, and its bulk is not very good. It needs Agility to be effective against offensive teams, but then it isn't quite as stupid powerful and it is still weak to Sucker Punch. Finding the setup turn can also be difficult for it.

Landorus fits in the same box as Porygon-Z with a lot of these traits, so I don't see it as broken either. I think we need to play many more battles before we ban anything unless it is totally obvious that a Pokemon is causing the meta to completely revolve around it.