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Mega Venusaur is amazing, but I don't feel like it's S rank material at all. For one, you're losing out on a mega slot, and with how many wallbreakers have been unleashed since the recent bans, his walling potential has been hampered greatly. That's not to say it's not bad-it's probably the best mega pokemon to use on stall, and forms an amazing core with several of the other pokemon in A tier. Its not S rank material in my opinion. S rank is for pokemon that don't really require teammates to be amazing, and I just don't see that happening for Mega Venusaur.
tl;dr version: Mega Venusaur is solid A+ in my opinion because of its supportive skills, but is too hampered by the recent bans to validate its jump to S.
ok i am ready for all the shit i am going to get for this
->B+/B
ok, so it was clear A- in the aegi meta, but now in this meta, stall can't afford to be passive. chansey is the definition of passive. it really sucks when you give heracross, medicham, gardevoir, terrakion, and the like free switch ins, because those are some of the biggest, if not the biggest, threats to stall there are. sure, it may be able to support w/ wish, heal bell, and sr, but thats really it. it is, simply put, incapable of applying any pressure. not to mention you are the biggest knock off magnet in the entire tier, because you are reliant on your item. i would actually put it to b, but that would obviously be met with some disagreement. and when we look at B+, we have alomomola, which is similarly passive(can actually apply pressure, however minuscule, with scald burns) and it has regenerator and similarly huge wishes. alomomola is as good, if not better, than chansey. and when we look at a- rank, we have hippowdon, slowbro, and skarmory, which are all capable of applying pressure(skarmory struggles, but i'll nominate it down if this is accepted) and can support their team. slowbro has regenerator, fabulous coverage, and scald, so it isn't exactly easy to switch into. chansey may be bulkier, and it is by a good margin, but it can't do shit to anything really. chansey should go down to b+ because while its passiveness was accepted in the past, it is simply unacceptable now, for the a- rank at least.
Crawdaunt definitely should move up. Adaptability is an awesome ability on anything, and it has a decent movepool of Aqua Jet, Crabhammer/Waterfall, Knock Off, Superpower, DD and SD. CB set is similar to CB Azu, but Adaptability Knock Off is a big enough niche there. The DD set can be good, allowing it to boost speed to respectable level. The DD set also retains strong priority to beat faster threats. Even Azumarill, which seems to wall him, needs to be fairly healthy to switch in to stop him. Very solid against all playstyles and a great wallbreaker if you don't want to use one of the big three wallbreaker Megas. He is also not deadweight against offensive playstyles because not many things like taking an Aqua Jet from any of his sets. He deserves to move up to B-.
Jirachi should also move up. Everyone knows about (and hates) Paraflinch, but it can also set rocks, U-Turn, T-Wave stuff, run Scarf sets and can run support sets. It gets Healing Wish, which is hugely valuable to any team. It also has a lot of decent attacking options on both sides on the spectrum, even though base 100 attack isn't too impressive. It's so easy to fit it into a lot of different teams in some form. It should move up to C+ or B-.
Smeargle should move down. Everyone knows its gimmick by now, Spore and then SmashPass or hazards. Total Taunt bait and a Mental Herb means an easy OHKO by something else later. Down to C or lower.
Blastoise should also move down. I've made the point before, but his biggest niche is gone with the Aegi ban. He was one of the few spinners that could beat Aegi 1 on 1 consistently. Psuedo-STAB on Fighting and Dark is nice, but his special attack is underwhelming and even with speed investment he's slow. Mega Cannon Turtle for C.
Anyone have any opinions on Ditto? I've never been a fan and would suggest it for a drop, but I want to hear some opinions.
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 172-203 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 177-209 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Edit: My only issue with moving Chansey down is that it is often by far the best special sponge on stall teams. Most of the other high ranked walls are physically based. I would be interested to hear opinions on this from other people, and moving it down would be an interesting idea.
I'm surprised that people still try to advocate for Starmie to drop.
I see the phrase "Donphan syndrome" and I'm irked because that term is so misused to describe Starmie. Donphan is outclassed in each individual role, Starmie merely faces competition from the individual roles and is in no way outclassed. Without even having to mention what gives it competition it, it is pretty damn obvious because there are only 2 Pokemons that does so - Greninja and Excadril.
Lati@s? Zapdos? Mega Blastoise? Mandibuzz? (since you guys like to brag about defensive Starmie, which is outclassed by Tentacruel in my opinion)
To make the comparison with Greninja, for the sake of relevance to the metagame, I'm gonna define outclass as "Using this Pokemon makes your team worse compared to a superior alternative" If the alternative does not help you beat more stuff then it is not outclassed.
Yes sure Greninja is faster and hits slightly harder but does it matter? 3 SAtk is not a big difference, and there is nothing significant in the speed tier between 115 and 122.
Most common Greninja sets and Starmie sets are almost identical since Greninja mostly run Extrasensory over Dark Pulse. The only advantage is that Greninja has is that it gets STAB on Ice Beam, which sounds good, except the only thing Greninja OHKOs with STAB Ice Beam that Starmie doesn't is Dragonite (which destroys Greninja with CB ESpeed anyway). Simply put, Starmie is just a Greninja that opts to run Rapid Spin (which it doesn't learn), over another offensive move. If you think Greninja outclasses Starmie, then ask yourself "Does using Rapid Spin on Greninja make your team worse than using a coverage Hidden Power?". Answer for that question is likely no, because if you need spin support, then it is worth using.
Like ScarfTar and Tornadus-T don't exist at all! Speaking of ScarfTar, it's a big problem for Starmie as iirc it can take one Hydro Pump and OHKOes with Crunch or can pursuit it. And lol "3 SAtk is not a big difference"... you do realize Greninja gets Protean, right? Greninja CAN take one ExtremeSpeed from CB Dragonite, actually, and OHKO with Ice Beam. Also, Greninja can dispose of Azumarill, Manaphy, Mega Gyarados, Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn easily, something (offensive) Starmie dreams of doing. Are you seriously thinking that Starmie "is just a Greninja that opts to run Rapid Spin"? Oh yeah, by that logic, Greninja "is just a Starmie that can run U-turn". And it's not weak to Pursuit/Knock Off (especially since it outspeeds all pursuiters bar Weavile). And it's faster. And it hits harder. And it can set up Spikes. Seriously, maybe if Starmie wasn't part Psychic it would be worthy of B, but...
Excadril is the only other viable spinner, but they are not even remotely comparable in spinning. Excadril relies on Scarf or sand support to spin reliably, meaning it can spin less liberally. Starmie is naturally fast so it can spin at more reliable times. They do have distinct advantage over each other, but their only similarity is the ability to spin. Saying Excadril is a better spinner than Starmie is like saying Scizor is a better SDer than Garchomp - there is no point of comparison other than a single move.
If I really need a water-type which can reliably spin, I'd rather just use Mega Blastoise, thank you very much, and search for an alternative to the mega Pokemon I can't use. Will the alternative be as good? Not quite - but as long as it does the mega Pokemon's job almost as reliably as the mega Pokemon, that's fine.
Overall, in my opinion:
Is Starmie a great Pokemon? Yes.
Is it viable in OU? Yes.
Is it outclassed in general? Yes.
- Excadrill, Mega Blastoise and Lati@s do offensive hazard removing better than Starmie.
- Greninja outclasses Starmie as a speedy special Water-type.
- Zapdos, Tentacruel and Mandibuzz do defensive Starmie's job better.
This screams C+ to me. Even the definition of C rank says:
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.
Starmie is probably the most overrated pokemon right now, even more so than Mew. It IS viable in OU, just outclassed. Maybe the "donphan syndrome" thing was a little too harsh, though. It's still C+ in my book. I'm done with starmie, it's getting old.
Smeargle should move down. Everyone knows its gimmick by now, Spore and then SmashPass or hazards. Total Taunt bait and a Mental Herb means an easy OHKO by something else later. Down to C or lower.
Smeargle should stay where it is... it can also pass a Geo boost with dual screen + Memento support and turn things such as Espeon or Mega Blastoise (heh) into total monsters.
Blastoise should also move down. I've made the point before, but his biggest niche is gone with the Aegi ban. He was one of the few spinners that could beat Aegi 1 on 1 consistently. Psuedo-STAB on Fighting and Dark is nice, but his special attack is underwhelming and even with speed investment he's slow. Mega Cannon Turtle for C.
Are you kidding me? Its special attack is underwhelming? Is 135 Special Attack plus Mega Launcher not enough for you? Blastoise also doesn't really need speed investment (maybe enough to outrun 164 Spe Azumarill if you're paranoic). Mega Blastoise should stay C+.
I agree with Crawdaunt though. It's a total monster, especially in rain teams. Choice Band Crabhammer in the rain eats orphans.
Also, I know it's the 43241st time I do this, but...
Weavile: B- -----> B+
Weavile is imo just as good as Pokemon such as Victini and Mega Alakazam. Fastest Knock Off user with STAB on it, fastest Pursuit user in OU (even faster than ScarfTar, pairs really well with Keldeo and Landorus (S-ranked mons), and can be really hard for offense to stop if their priority users are gone (especially Talonflame and Mega Scizor). It revenge kills Terrakion, Mew, Mamoswine, Lati@s, Gengar, that overrated water-type spinner, some Ferrothorn, Thundurus and Landorus with no problem.
Chansey moving down makes perfect logical sense to me. Those who aren't running mega wallbreakers are running either Mew who takes advantage of Chansey very easily, or Magnezone+Pinsir which just laughs at the kind of teams Chansey is usually on and really, the old stall build of Chansey+Skarm+Bulky Water+Bulky Grass etc just does not work in this meta anymore, partly because Chansey just gives free turns to all these new threats. Modern stall teams need some kind of offensive presence so as to not get completely steamrolled, and I feel like the rankings should reflect that. Also the competition with Alomomola is pretty big, since unlike Chansey, Mola supports its teammates while staying healthy itself, while Chansey seems to get its health chipped away every time it passes a wish.
Crawdaunt definitely should move up. Adaptability is an awesome ability on anything, and it has a decent movepool of Aqua Jet, Crabhammer/Waterfall, Knock Off, Superpower, DD and SD. CB set is similar to CB Azu, but Adaptability Knock Off is a big enough niche there. The DD set can be good, allowing it to boost speed to respectable level. The DD set also retains strong priority to beat faster threats. Even Azumarill, which seems to wall him, needs to be fairly healthy to switch in to stop him. Very solid against all playstyles and a great wallbreaker if you don't want to use one of the big three wallbreaker Megas. He is also not deadweight against offensive playstyles because not many things like taking an Aqua Jet from any of his sets. He deserves to move up to B-.
Jirachi should also move up. Everyone knows about (and hates) Paraflinch, but it can also set rocks, U-Turn, T-Wave stuff, run Scarf sets and can run support sets. It gets Healing Wish, which is hugely valuable to any team. It also has a lot of decent attacking options on both sides on the spectrum, even though base 100 attack isn't too impressive. It's so easy to fit it into a lot of different teams in some form. It should move up to C+ or B-.
Smeargle should move down. Everyone knows its gimmick by now, Spore and then SmashPass or hazards. Total Taunt bait and a Mental Herb means an easy OHKO by something else later. Down to C or lower.
Blastoise should also move down. I've made the point before, but his biggest niche is gone with the Aegi ban. He was one of the few spinners that could beat Aegi 1 on 1 consistently. Psuedo-STAB on Fighting and Dark is nice, but his special attack is underwhelming and even with speed investment he's slow. Mega Cannon Turtle for C.
Anyone have any opinions on Ditto? I've never been a fan and would suggest it for a drop, but I want to hear some opinions.
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 172-203 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 177-209 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I agree with all your general points about Crawdaunt, but I just wanted to say that DD Crawdaunt is pretty bad. It has a bad speed tier and can't even outspeed base 100s at +1 when adamant, and if jolly you give up too much power. Plus, running dd is a) generally not worth it when you have aqua jet, and b) not worth it due to sacrificing too much coverage. Crawdaunt's best set in OU is the all-out attacking set with either a Choice Band or a Life Orb. It deals an insane amount of damage to anything that switches in, and actually can beat some of its possible switch ins with Superpower or Crunch. It is frail and slow, but its immense wallbreaking ability, as well as its ability to do well against offense thanks to strong priority, makes me think it belongs back in B-, in the same realm as Entei and Weavile.
I also agree with everything you said about Rachi. C+ is really a mess of stuff that should move up (Cress) or down (Blastoise, R-H, etc), so it's somewhat hard to compare it to stuff. But, I think in general its defensive and offensive sets, for their supportive capabilities, are superior to stuff deserving of C+, like Absol, Aggron, and Ape. Cresselia, too, is an extremely good supportive mon, capable of handling CM Landorus on stall (which has like zero other switchins) while still beating Knock Off Lando, Medicham, and a bunch of other stuff. Its combination of bulk, recovery, screens, and status, and a good ability/typing (Psychic is actually decent in a metagame in which medicham is common) makes me think of it as B-, similar to Ampharos and (hopefully Rachi).
Smeargle is bad. I'd rather use Venomoth, Gorebyss, and Scolipede for BP and Shuckle for all-out hazard lead. I guess it has spore, but its zero bulk makes me think it's rarely worth it. D is probably correct.
Blastoise was an okayish spinner awhile ago, since it beat Aegislash. But Aegi is dead and Starmie is in general a lot better than Toise, so I think dropping it makes sense. It was said in a post above mine that Blastoise deserves to stay, but I'm not convinced at all. All you're saying is:
Are you kidding me? Its special attack is underwhelming? Is 135 Special Attack plus Mega Launcher not enough for you? Blastoise also doesn't really need speed investment (maybe enough to outrun 164 Spe Azumarill if you're paranoic). Mega Blastoise should stay C+.
In Mega Standards, 135 is pretty low. It isn't weak by any means, but it isn't a monster like Heracross, Gardevoir, or Char-Y. Plus, power alone isn't a great reason to keep something in C+. Blastoise was C+ because it was a spinnner that beat spinblockers the most reliably, but now Aegi is dead, so there's a lot less strain on Starmie. Starmie with a LO is only slightly weaker than Blastoise, but has a huge af niche; it's super fast. Starmie can defeat things without having to take a hit, so its lesser bulk isn't that notable. Plus, it has Recover and resists fighting + psychic, and has a viable all-out defensive set. I think using a mega as your spinner, when you'd rather use a spinner + a better mega that needs hazard support, like Pinsir/Charizard, is mainly why I don't like Toise at all.
I'm not really sure about Ditto. Setup sweepers are still popular, so its ability to rk them is still handy. It's such a straightforward mon, but it does lack any huge effect on the metagame. C is the lowest it should go imo, but I don't think it's that out of place in C+, provided it changes a bit.
Oh yeah and Chansey moving down makes sense, since with Heracross/Cham/Garde everywhere, it's better to have stallymons that are less passive. Chansey is basically a sign that says "come destroy my team" whenever it switches in.
LOl what is jirachi doing in C it should move straight to B, b- at the minimum, an amazing Gard switchin, the best lati switchin, punishes all non electric switchins with body slam, is hard to kill wish wishtect, can sr, and sub toxic is nasty
Also the best clefable counter there is, which is probably its best attribute
Just wanted to say that starmie is deserving of its rank, the bulky version beats every sr user in the game 1v1 besides like celebi and chansey which it kinda ties with, and spin blockers don't really exist. It keeps so much momentum for its team but not being a defogger, cuz spin is superior. It also is a great Keld check and an ok medicham check (medi 2hkos but has to hit like 8 hjks) it spread burns incredibly efficiently and is just really hard for bulkier teams to kill. It i also a great scald switchin. Idk much about the analytic lo set cuz I've never used it but it seems good in theory
The thing is Chansey fulfills quite a lot of roles in one pokemon. It absorbs status thanks to Natural Cure and does Wish and Heal Bell support aside from walling every special attacker out there barring Keldeo. Also lets not forget that Chansey is used pretty much exclusively on Stall (or at least should be imo) so usually teammates can handle stuff like Medicham/Heracross (think about stuff like Slowbro and Gliscor respectively). Chansey also does about the same minimum damage with Seismic Toss to Mega Medicham as Slowbro does with Scald for example, so damage wise it's on par with other Stall mons. Chansey can also just Wish as these Megas come in and give a free switch to their counters to keep momentum. I would say that Chansey is still invaluable on Stall because nothing else can do its job as good or better, so it should stay where it is now in the ranking even when people are using Heracross and Medicham more often. The metagame might evolve, but stall teams adapt too and Chansey still walls the same things it did before so it's not like these metagame changes affect how good Chansey does its role.
Rather than moving Chansey down, look at moving pokes like Slowbro and Gliscor up for their ability to counter these "new" Mega pokemon. That's how I would approach it.
the thing is, you give free switch ins to things that your team might not be able to handle. medicham, heracross, mew, gardevoir, terrakion etc and chansey tends to get worn down when it wishes, eventually to the point where it can't wall anything anymore.
i think mega medicham should be moved to A+ it stallbreaks super well nothing can switch into it and it just hits like a truck. There are a couple of counters to this thing but really for the most part you have to let something die and then revenge this thing. Heck this thing even 2hkos a mega gardevoir with a 4* resisted high jump kick
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 133-156 (48 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 164-193 (59.2 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 205-242 (74 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
okay mega gardevoir takes physical attacks like toilet paper and using the 3rd most powerful physical move in the game as an example isn't really saying much
I find it a bit hysterical how long it took you guys to realize how effective Alomomola is. It was in NU last gen and gaining nothing afaik in gen 6. It has been unranked for months, was at C+, now jumped to B+. And you guys are asking stall staple Chansey, the eviolite abuser that send Blissey packing her bags to UU, to drop to B+ which is the sun fish's rank although Blissey has a higher rank than sun fish in the UU viability thread. IMO the pink fatass is a little more effective than Big Luvdisc.
Also funny how just removing Aegislash is making all these psychic types become more viable, also fighting types Mega Heracross and Hawlucha. Then what has removing Mega Mawile done to the meta?
This is probably going off topic, but it really bothers me that cress is only C+.
With a simple spread of 248 hp/8 def/252 sdef, running moonlight, psyshock, ice beam, filler, here's a simple list of what it counters/hard checks:
Keldeo
Lati@s
Mega Medicham
Landorus
Thundurus
Charizard-Y
Greninja
Terrakion (ignoring CB stone edges <_< >_>)
Garchomp
Dragonite
Kyurem-B (ignoring CB outrages <_< >_>)
Mega Aero
Raikou
Mega Manectric
Mega Ampharos
Mega Venusaur
Will-O Mega Gardevoir
There's absolutely zero reason for a mon to be walling like half the relevant meta and still be in C+ lmao. Sure, its extremely prone to status. Sure, its recovery pretty much sucks. But its no sitting duck, its psyshocks can mostly break subs and ice beams stop lando/dragons. I like to run magic coat in the last slot so its not such status/taunt fodder and beat most leads 1v1 :3 reflect can help prevent being pursuit trapped, and toxic and t-wave just are generally annoying. Its also a free switch-in to almost every steel type in existence zzz you could run hp fire it really bothered you lol.
Its just so stupidly bulky jesus move that thing up to B at the least.
Oh lets try to stay on topic a bit too, hawlucha for B-. I've been messing with leichi>sitrus and you can just spam sub on stuff like latias/keldeo/raikou to get yourself into leichi range as well as activate unburden. For offensive teams that rely on offensive pressure to prevent set up, it's a really nice way to clean. I throw on SD for bulkier teams and wallah this thing is solid af. B- ez
I find it a bit hysterical how long it took you guys to realize how effective Alomomola is. It was in NU last gen and gaining nothing afaik in gen 6. It has been unranked for months, was at C+, now jumped to B+. And you guys are asking stall staple Chansey, the eviolite abuser that send Blissey packing her bags to UU, to drop to B+ which is the sun fish's rank although Blissey has a higher rank than sun fish in the UU viability thread.
Are you just commenting on it, or do you think it's wrong? Because I definitely think it's you could argue that Alomomola > Chansey. Also, OU is different than UU, so rankings being different doesn't really matter. Idk really if you're arguing anything though, so w/e.
Also funny how just removing Aegislash is making all these psychic types become more viable, also fighting types Mega Heracross and Hawlucha. Then what has removing Mega Mawile done to the meta?
It made Conkeldurr a bit more viable. Other than that, it didn't really affect the meta a whole lot. So, just to bring an argument here, I think I agree to raising Conk (even though I supported it going down to C+...) because in a world without Mawile, and to a lesser extend Aegi, it's much better.
This is probably going off topic, but it really bothers me that cress is only C+.
With a simple spread of 248 hp/8 def/252 sdef, running moonlight, psyshock, ice beam, filler, here's a simple list of what it counters/hard checks:
Keldeo
Lati@s
Mega Medicham
Landorus
Thundurus
Charizard-Y
Greninja
Terrakion (ignoring CB stone edges <_< >_>)
Garchomp
Dragonite
Kyurem-B (ignoring CB outrages <_< >_>)
Mega Aero
Raikou
Mega Manectric
Mega Ampharos
Mega Venusaur
Will-O Mega Gardevoir
There's absolutely zero reason for a mon to be walling like half the relevant meta and still be in C+ lmao. Sure, its extremely prone to status. Sure, its recovery pretty much sucks. But its no sitting duck, its psyshocks can mostly break subs and ice beams stop lando/dragons. I like to run magic coat in the last slot so its not such status/taunt fodder and beat most leads 1v1 :3 reflect can help prevent being pursuit trapped, and toxic and t-wave just are generally annoying. Its also a free switch-in to almost every steel type in existence zzz you could run hp fire it really bothered you lol.
Its just so stupidly bulky jesus move that thing up to B at the least.
Oh lets try to stay on topic a bit too, hawlucha for B-. I've been messing with leichi>sitrus and you can just spam sub on stuff like latias/keldeo/raikou to get yourself into leichi range as well as activate unburden. For offensive teams that rely on offensive pressure to prevent set up, it's a really nice way to clean. I throw on SD for bulkier teams and wallah this thing is solid af. B- ez
lol it's not that off topic, considering I brought Cress up eight posts ago :) But yeah, thanks for composing a list of stuff it walls to hell and back; it really helps illustrate how good it is. It walls a ton of stuff, including MegaCham, serves as stalls only counter to CM Landorus, and is just an overall awesome wall. But that's just its defensive set. It can also use screens + lunar dance to help more offensive teams, and even use trick room. It's totally deserving of a rise to B, or at least B-.
And yeah, I also agree about Hawlucha. I like to stick more with the Sitrus set, but I may try out Leichi as well. The only thing that worries me about Liechi is that one HJMiss and you're toast. Oh well. It's handled by Thundy and Talonflame on offense, but it's hard to switch into unless you're a Doublade, and Substitute helps it avoid being rked from Talon/Thundy. Overall, while weak at first, it's able to get to +2 +2 behind a substitute really fast with its standard set, and has some other sets that can work that bring it to +3 +2. I think a rise is justified for Hawl.
Are you just commenting on it, or do you think it's wrong? Because I definitely think it's you could argue that Alomomola > Chansey. Also, OU is different than UU, so rankings being different doesn't really matter. Idk really if you're arguing anything though, so w/e.
It made Conkeldurr a bit more viable. Other than that, it didn't really affect the meta a whole lot. So, just to bring an argument here, I think I agree to raising Conk (even though I supported it going down to C+...) because in a world without Mawile, and to a lesser extend Aegi, it's much better.
lol it's not that off topic, considering I brought Cress up eight posts ago :) But yeah, thanks for composing a list of stuff it walls to hell and back; it really helps illustrate how good it is. It walls a ton of stuff, including MegaCham, serves as stalls only counter to CM Landorus, and is just an overall awesome wall. But that's just its defensive set. It can also use screens + lunar dance to help more offensive teams, and even use trick room. It's totally deserving of a rise to B, or at least B-.
And yeah, I also agree about Hawlucha. I like to stick more with the Sitrus set, but I may try out Leichi as well. The only thing that worries me about Liechi is that one HJMiss and you're toast. Oh well. It's handled by Thundy and Talonflame on offense, but it's hard to switch into unless you're a Doublade, and Substitute helps it avoid being rked from Talon/Thundy. Overall, while weak at first, it's able to get to +2 +2 behind a substitute really fast with its standard set, and has some other sets that can work that bring it to +3 +2. I think a rise is justified for Hawl.
God damn fincent, you canging avatars is gonna drive me bonkers one day. xD
I do not quite know if Cress moving up is still the best idea tho. Its still hampered by on of the best styles in the tier (Sand Offense fucks it over with that damn TTar) and while it still walls a hell of a lot, don't know if its still able to be moved is my only concern. if the issues with sand aren't that big, then id say move it up by all means.
ok i am ready for all the shit i am going to get for this
->B+/B
ok, so it was clear A- in the aegi meta, but now in this meta, stall can't afford to be passive. chansey is the definition of passive. it really sucks when you give heracross, medicham, gardevoir, terrakion, and the like free switch ins, because those are some of the biggest, if not the biggest, threats to stall there are. sure, it may be able to support w/ wish, heal bell, and sr, but thats really it. it is, simply put, incapable of applying any pressure. not to mention you are the biggest knock off magnet in the entire tier, because you are reliant on your item. i would actually put it to b, but that would obviously be met with some disagreement. and when we look at B+, we have alomomola, which is similarly passive(can actually apply pressure, however minuscule, with scald burns) and it has regenerator and similarly huge wishes. alomomola is as good, if not better, than chansey. and when we look at a- rank, we have hippowdon, slowbro, and skarmory, which are all capable of applying pressure(skarmory struggles, but i'll nominate it down if this is accepted) and can support their team. slowbro has regenerator, fabulous coverage, and scald, so it isn't exactly easy to switch into. chansey may be bulkier, and it is by a good margin, but it can't do shit to anything really. chansey should go down to b+ because while its passiveness was accepted in the past, it is simply unacceptable now, for the a- rank at least.
I agree with this, but only if Skarmory moves down with it for similar reasons. Skarmory loses to 4/5 of S-Rank consistently, almost all of A+ Rank barring Excadrill and Landorus-T but what's the point? It can't do anything back to Excadrill or Landorus-T except kill your team's momentum while your opponent switches into a Skarm counter (which isn't hard to do since it's super easy to pressure with Zard, Thundurus, Heatran, Keldeo or Greninja or whatever else.) It's like the face of passive defensive pokemon that's just walked on and broken through. All of the best physical attackers except for SR Excadrill can break through. Mega Heracross 2HKOs without a boost, OHKOes at +2, Medicham clean 2 hits it, Azumarill can BD on the switch and OHKO with Waterfall, Mega Gyarados is shakily checked because a +1 Waterfall does a lot and will KO Skarm if it flinches while it tries to Whirlwind. Skarmory just isn't that great right now at all and I don't see why it should be considered better than Chansey, it has the same flaws and Chansey at least is harder for the stuff it's supposed to check/wall to break through and can afford to run Toxic to threaten common switches which Skarmory can't.
God damn fincent, you canging avatars is gonna drive me bonkers one day. xD
I do not quite know if Cress moving up is still the best idea tho. Its still hampered by on of the best styles in the tier (Sand Offense fucks it over with that damn TTar) and while it still walls a hell of a lot, don't know if its still able to be moved is my only concern. if the issues with sand aren't that big, then id say move it up by all means.
Sand is annoying for Cress, totally, but imo it doesn't keep it from being on par with stuff like Lucario. Lucario isn't that good in this meta, considering that most teams will have targets of both Iron Tail and Ice Punch, and you can't choose both. Lucario needs support to function (ie. removing fairies or grounds 4x weak to ic, weakening everything faster so they're oneshotted by +2 ES, etc), which I think is more than Cress needs. With Reflect, cress can avoid Pursuit fairly well, so its only huge flaws are limited recovery in sand and rain + being setup fodder for heracross. These are annoying, yes, but I think it's what's keeping Cress out of A/B+ rather than B-. Another defensive mon in B-, Chesnaught, is screwed over by birdspam, which is almost, if not as, influential as sand, and has recovery as hurt by sand and rain as Cress' is. It does have more of an offensive presence, and can also set spikes, but I think Cress' ability to cover more things than chesnaught (including cm lando, which is huge, and medicham) and support teammates with screen(s) (and possibly lunar dance/tr) makes them worthy of the same rank. Rhyperior is another defensive mon, known for being relatively flawless against birdspam. It also sets hazards, and has a huge offensive presence. However, it crumbles to every special attacker in the tier, and doesn't have any recovery options. Ampharos is also defensive, and is able to check/counter electric and water types. It also has the advantage of having a viable offensive set. However, it is limited by costing a mega slot and relying on Rest for recovery. I think these four defensive Pokemon are all relatively similar; they are check/counter important things in the metagame, they both have their own perks that allow them to do more than just their job, and they also have their own flaws that stop them from being top-tier, A+ ranked Pokemon. They're all deserving of B-, imho.
I agree with this, but only if Skarmory moves down with it for similar reasons. Skarmory loses to 4/5 of S-Rank consistently, almost all of A+ Rank barring Excadrill and Landorus-T but what's the point? It can't do anything back to Excadrill or Landorus-T except kill your team's momentum while your opponent switches into a Skarm counter (which isn't hard to do since it's super easy to pressure with Zard, Thundurus, Heatran, Keldeo or Greninja or whatever else.) It's like the face of passive defensive pokemon that's just walked on and broken through. All of the best physical attackers except for SR Excadrill can break through. Mega Heracross 2HKOs without a boost, OHKOes at +2, Medicham clean 2 hits it, Azumarill can BD on the switch and OHKO with Waterfall, Mega Gyarados is shakily checked because a +1 Waterfall does a lot and will KO Skarm if it flinches while it tries to Whirlwind. Skarmory just isn't that great right now at all and I don't see why it should be considered better than Chansey, it has the same flaws and Chansey at least is harder for the stuff it's supposed to check/wall to break through and can afford to run Toxic to threaten common switches which Skarmory can't.
Skarm has Defog, which is why, despite being as passive as Chansey, I think it's better. I don't actually think Skarm is as good as Amoonguss is on stall, but that's just me, considering I usually prefer Mandibuzz to check/counter Landorus. Anyway, a lot of stuff makes Skarm's life hell, but with Counter + Sturdy, it, barring hax, can beat some of them, and also serves as stall's preferred defogger. However, with the influx of bulkymie (idk if that's really exaggerating; starmie is really popular now), putting a hazard remover on a stall team is easier. Skarm is taken advantage of by many things like Hera/Cham, things that one would think it could beat. I totally could be underrating it (although I think am doing so less than you...), but it could be worth a drop.
omfg i don't get this starmie hype... if anything it should drop back to b-/c+ where it belongs... it really suffers from donphan syndrome... (not going to discuss this anymore, i made my point in the V2 thread, but...)
Are you kidding me? Starmie suffering from "Donphan Syndrome?" Do you even have the slightest clue what you're talking about?
Starmie is the best there is at what it does, which is clearing hazards with Rapid Spin. Obviously it faces some competition from Excadrill, who holds a handful of advantages (namely, being much stronger and having overall better defensive typing), but Starmie has the advantage of giving zero fucks about spinblockers. I already addressed this in my original post, so I don't need to go over it again.
Starmie as a fast special attacker is inferior to Greninja, but only by the tiniest margin. The only OU-relevant things Greninja outspeeds that Starmie does not are Tornadus-T and Scarf Ttar. It is also worth noting that due to Analytic, Starmie's Hydro Pump and Psychic STAB hit harder on switches than Greninja's do, and Starmie is excellent at forcing switches with it's wide and unpredictable movepool. If you're using Starmie as a pure special attacker, you're doing it wrong, but if you're using it as a special attacker with hazard control support, you're really not outclassed at all, are you?
If Excadrill has proper team support (namely, Sand Stream), then Exca as a spinner might be the right choice for you. If you want a fast special attacker, and your team doesn't care about hazards, Greninja is the better choice. But if you want the best of both worlds while sacrificing almost nothing in return, Starmie is the mon you want to use.
(I don't have any experience using bulky Reflect Type Starmie, so I can't weigh in on that, but I'll be trying it out soon. Just saying, though, with everything I've said, plus other people voicing their support for BulkyMie, I think it shows that Starmie is better than ever, and deserves a higher rank).
Cress does deserve to move up. It walls a large portion of the Meta fairly easily and it's so damn bulky on both sides. C+ is underrating it a fair amount. In fact, the C+ rank as a whole seems large right now. Not that there should be quotas on sub-ranks, but large ranks should have a few things pushed in both directions. I also agree with Chansey moving down until we ban everything that remotely threatens stall the meta becomes less offensive. Seismic Toss is crap damage against anything and with the amount of Steels floating around Toxic can be absorbed fairly easily. Also, beating a dead drum here, but the Aegi ban increased the amount of Fighting spam getting tossed around. Chansey should drop to B+. Skarm should stay where it is, Counter+Sturdy and Defogging gives it a niche and it's typing messes with a lot of common two and three move coverages (ex. Dragon+Ground, Ground+Flying). Basically anything Physical that uses Earthquake to get by Steels is screwed by Skarm. It's fine where it is in A-.
Are you just commenting on it, or do you think it's wrong? Because I definitely think it's you could argue that Alomomola > Chansey. Also, OU is different than UU, so rankings being different doesn't really matter. Idk really if you're arguing anything though, so w/e.
I don't disagree with the rankings, it's just the fact the sun fish hasn't lost or gaining anything since it was introduced but suddenly it's a good Pokemon to use in the changing OU metagame. Has it just been overlooked this whole time? All I would argue for Alomomomomo... etc... mola is for it's ranking be stay below Slowbro. Chansey can go to B+ if it's that easy to exploit.
It made Conkeldurr a bit more viable. Other than that, it didn't really affect the meta a whole lot. So, just to bring an argument here, I think I agree to raising Conk (even though I supported it going down to C+...) because in a world without Mawile, and to a lesser extend Aegi, it's much better.
I thought Conkeldurr should not have gone below B in the first place. I keep reading about these 'counters' and 'free switchins'. Forget about Assault Vest set, why not run a Sheer Force set dedicated to murdering Conk's common switchins?
Glad to see Starmie getting recognition it deserves. For one thing it can counter Keldeo (whom does not belong in S rank at all although he's my fave). I figure it's outclassed by Greninja as a special sweeper except that Greninja can't Rapid Spin, and the only spinblocker in OU Gengar cannot take a Psychic attack.
And for Magnezone, Mega Aerodactyl Mega Alakazam, Mew, Lando-Tetc. rising and Hippodown, Tyranitar, Bisharp, Mega Absol, Diancie, etc dropping, this viability list is more reliable than it's ever been. I'm looking forward to the tier changes, they have been messed up by keeping Vaporeon and Diancie in OU.
If Sand offensive is popular now, why is Chesnaught B-? Also wondering how Mamoswine is A while Kyurem-B is A-.
I find it a bit hysterical how long it took you guys to realize how effective Alomomola is. It was in NU last gen and gaining nothing afaik in gen 6. It has been unranked for months, was at C+, now jumped to B+. And you guys are asking stall staple Chansey, the eviolite abuser that send Blissey packing her bags to UU, to drop to B+ which is the sun fish's rank although Blissey has a higher rank than sun fish in the UU viability thread. IMO the pink fatass is a little more effective than Big Luvdisc.
Also funny how just removing Aegislash is making all these psychic types become more viable, also fighting types Mega Heracross and Hawlucha. Then what has removing Mega Mawile done to the meta?
Yeah, Mola is an odd case. I feel like it's stronger in OU than it is in RU and UU, simply because there are so many other great stallmons to support it in this tier. I remember I was ridiculed early on in X/Y for suggesting it was better than Vaporeon, lol. I don't think it's better than Chansey, though. Chansey has instant recovery in Soft Boiled and cures its own status with Natural Cure.
It's lack of viability last gen probably had something to do with all the Thunder spam going around on rain teams.
That's not true. The ability is just a part of the pokemon, there are much more things about mzam that DO make it reliable, like a 100% accurate STAB, strong coverage moves, and good stats, especially an uncommon speed tier (cough base 100 cough) so it doesn't have to rely on some speed ties to survive. Sometimes if your accuracy sucks you can even run hone claws viably (mega aero, durant), so your movepool can even compensate for the inconsistency of your ability. One part of the mon, one trait of it, idk, is inconsistent, but that alone certainly doesn't make the whole mon inconsistent as a whole.
If you don't believe that Trace makes Mega Zam unreliable, then why bring it up on the first place? I was talking about how Mega Zam should go to A-, and then you disagree with it, with one of your reasons being that Trace is unreliable, which implied you believe that Mega Zam is also unreliable.
Anyway, on to something more constructive, i agree with Chansey dropping and Jirachi rising to B-, it's a great Pokemon atm. My favorite set for Jirachi so far has been max HP, enough Speed to outrun Jolly Mega Heracross and rest in Atk, with SR, Iron Head, Fire Punch, and U-turn / Zen Headbutt. Great check to many Pokemon for offensive teams, such as Mega Garde, Clefable, Latios, Latias, Thundurus, Mega Zam, and Mega Venusaur, great SR setter as it beats Latios and Latias, and can pressure other Spin and Defog users with U-turn, and hits decently hard too. I basically needed a check to Latios, Latias, and Mega Gardy that is not passive as fuck and can set up SR, so i tried Jirachi and was very pleased with the results.
Mamoswine is A because it can run Earthquake, Icicle Crash/Spear and Ice Shard and get perfect coverage outside of Rotom-W (Surskit is the only typing to resist that combo without abilities, but lolSurskit). You get one strong STAB attack, another strong STAB or a Sub-breaking STAB move, and STAB priority. That allows you to run Stealth Rock in the last slot, or one of a few other options including Endeavor. Ice priority is also really freaking good in the current meta, and it's one of only two things that can use in effectively in OU (the other is Weavile). Kyu-B, as strong as it is, is hurt by the fact that its crappy movepool forces it to go mixed in almost any situation. It also has slight 4MSS between Outrage, Fusion Bolt, Iron Head, Ice Beam, Earth Power and Substitute. Having to divert your EVs between two attacking stats is less efficient then any of the Big 3 wallbreakers. 170/120 attack stats somewhat make up for it, but can't fully cover it up. Also, Kyu-B has a downright trollish 95 base speed tier. Just enough to seem fast, but but too slow to have an impact against offense or use a Scarf.
my post on omastar and haxorus was just a little interlude since they were being discussed at the time, i'll talk about the rest of the nominated pokemon now:
mega venusaur for s rank is ridiculous lol, just had to get that out of the way; i'm actually kind of shocked that jukain supported that but whatever.
hawlucha is slowly rising up the ranks as an underrated and effective sweeper. while it'll be better with thundurus gone, it's actually quite dangerous now. unburden + 118 speed is absolutely insane, this isn't getting revenged by choice scarfers or anything that isn't talonflame's / pinsir's priority. because of unburden it can use quite a few items pretty well, subsitrus, focus sash, subliechi ive seen. swords dance makes this thing a pretty strong sweeper that becomes damn fast and his impressive coverage with high jump kick + acrobatics. b- is cool because this thing is also becoming really popular on the ladder now as well, because are noticing that it's considerably better, not just lack of aegi hype anymore.
empoleon should move up to c- imo, its a pretty niche choice but its typing and stats lend it to some useful roles on a team that i would consider using it for. a defnsive set capitalises on its cool typing to offer a specially defensive set that functions as an alternative to heatran on teams weak to waters. it checks azumarill, greninja, manaphy, gyarados, and has roar to phaze out things like crocune and sub gyarados, which is helpful because sub gyarados 6-0s all of jukains stall teams when paired with a pursuit user. empoleon is also very efficient against rain teams, walling non fighting-move kabutops, kingdra (barring critdra using hp electric > hp poison, but who would use hp electric, whiimsicott has higher usage), and other common rain pokemon like latios, which can be seen running surf or earthquake for heatran, yet rarely has a move for empoleon barring hp fighting which probably does nothing. i also really like choice specs empoleon since it is an amazing counter to cm clefable with modest choice specs stab flash cannon 2hkoing clefable at +1 and unless it's running like tbolt or something it will not win. specs flash cannon actually 2hkoes a lot of relevant bulky pokemon. c- rank pls.
goodra was a pokemon that everyone hated on but its becoming quote good now so i definitely think it should move to c+ rank. it may be easy to wear down but the fact that checks so many rampaging pokemon in a pinch while also having offensive presence is very worthwhile. almost every special attacker can be walled by this regardless of super effective coverage, raikou, manectric, zardy, gengar, heatran, breloom, it has nice coverage itself and it much better than a large amount of the pokemon in its current rank.
jirachi i would like to see way above the proposed c+ rank, i think b rank is pretty suitable, tesung's post cover it pretty well but to elaborate it walls the latis and gardevoir which are everywhere now, has a nice sr set, can punish things heavily with para + ihead AND EVEYRONE USE SUBTOXIC JIRACHI
13:50 jukain that subtoxic rachi
13:51 jukain is a pokemon that nobody should ever know about
13:51 jukain because it will ruin ou
13:51 jukain :]
other than that since i dont feel like writing much i agree with the push for doublade, azelf, and froslass, the drops for smeargle, volcarona, rotom-h, chansey, and blastoise, i disagree with the ranking of forretress, and i think dugtrio should be dropped off the list completely, moltres too.
If you don't believe that Trace makes Mega Zam unreliable, then why bring it up on the first place? I was talking about how Mega Zam should go to A-, and then you disagree with it, with one of your reasons being that Trace is unreliable, which implied you believe that Mega Zam is also unreliable.
Anyway, on to something more constructive, i agree with Chansey dropping and Jirachi rising to B-, it's a great Pokemon atm. My favorite set for Jirachi so far has been max HP, enough Speed to outrun Jolly Mega Heracross and rest in Atk, with SR, Iron Head, Fire Punch, and U-turn / Zen Headbutt. Great check to many Pokemon for offensive teams, such as Mega Garde, Clefable, Latios, Latias, Thundurus, Mega Zam, and Mega Venusaur, great SR setter as it beats Latios and Latias, and can pressure other Spin and Defog users with U-turn, and hits decently hard too. I basically needed a check to Latios, Latias, and Mega Gardy that is not passive as fuck and can set up SR, so i tried Jirachi and was very pleased with the results.
Trace (and its inconsistency) is part of the reason why mega zam should stay at B+, not the reason.
And yah to chansey dropping as wel its passive af and all it really does well is set SR lol. it gets worn down easily, especially wiht all the sand about, and there are better answers to most of the special attackers in the tier; at this point people really only look to chansey as an answer to char-y and mega garde.
