Official XY Ubers Gengarite Suspect Voting

[Hugendugen]

First of all, I want to apologize for the delay. That's on me. This should have been posted almost a week ago, but a death in the family and having to move house got in the way. There were A LOT of permissions to add and unfortunately I'm the only Ubers mod who was able to add them. Anyway that's finally done, so we're ready for the vote!

Voting on Gengarite.

List of potential voters:

Hide

yoman5
malefic
Aenonar
Steve Angello
Lady Gaga
Melee Mewtwo
Hack
srk1214
Fiend Hound
justinjiaxinghu
Mr.378
darkdevil
C AllStar
Asmodean
Haruno
MeteorMiss
Laurel
ZoroarkForever
asterat
Imma Fly
Level 56
Emperor
Haunted.Shadow
orch
North
Edgar
franklinfrank
Orphic
quickscopenoscope
K Legacy
Mizuhime
Slashari
GRB1
DracoMaster Pain
Goomynator
Mega-Swampert
ZoroDark
Dilwar
V0x
Luis Henrique
Alexander.
Livio
iampie
Yagura
WreckDra
haxiom
Jacob
sparktrain
Hill
galbia
Safes
Killua kun
DoubleOD
Ecuacion
Steeljackal<3
absdaddy
Kebabe
Thetwinmasters
zeriloa
z0mOG
DoABarrelRoll
Melodic Dystopia
Fixed
GlassGlaceon
Hecty
Killabunny
Dice
alwayswimmin
delik
alejandrosh
Lostcuzofhackz
n00b
hobo21
Yveltal585
Prismillon
lockiegengar12
DontStealMyPenguin
aim
c0mp
Vinc608
byronthewellwell
Professional2341
Worthlessnoob
Nejikage
Arikado
skeanos
Venatic
dragons
Aquasition
CarbonTheSecond
Logic.
BKC
jim995
Fireburn
Art Vandelay
UmbreonEternal
Tayo
Terra-Freak
SY/Micky Mike
Evuelf
Breath of Death
Mob Boss
Raducan
ILoveFlannery
effyouzion
Lord Alphose
Meteordash
Genesis7
Inflikted
Obvious Power
Cinco Diablo
Muk
Lemarvinjordan23
Delta 2777
W2S
Conspire
Screaming Souls
Aeternis
Fieryguns
bsu
Faint
Sausage Sarny
Bloo
Caledrith
Prof. Almeida
Sweep
Xfing
akelly96
Er Filethe
The Hitman
Meety
steve_man
Focus
dolphino22
NightFox
Reighn
Cirdec
Legitimate Username
haxED
barton
tyang9960
HypnoEmpire
Trikrom
spooky96
SoulRed12
skillzfodayz
yan[sogeking]
shrang
AlphaNeria
Ryu VM
ogasian
Baguette
Barom1
Alexey
UCN
New Light
Lockes and Keys
Bidoofs Crazy Videos
Colstonn
TheRealSaltyChips
Prime249
DetroitLolcat
Newton Alves
pokemaster345
Scene
user php
Montsegur
-Leon-
Terraquaza
TewMew
alexwolf
PROBLEMS
blunder
jas61292
capefeather
RaphaniacZX
Hewhoamareismyself
chramsr
kal1978
smlj
Kj6287-EmotionalDrizzy:(
rematch728
Thugly Duckling
xDesch
ApplepieFTW
StirlingArcher
iliekmudkipz123456789
DennisEG
conoriham
r/pokemonshowdown
Cherub Agent
Valhalla
DxDeadlockedxS
Comfy&EZtowear
namehtmas
GazR
Scubasage
Knuckstrike
Aquaslash
Dreamfyre
Joryn
Underking001
burton9999
FreeButter
Theorymon
majaspic22
I Shuckle
Sunny.
adilbilal
LoserMcNoob
BrellowBran
Soulgazer
micmacaroni
LegendaryElitist
LightningLuxray
Tyrannosaurusshrekt
Expulso
keymoe
badabing
Stary02939
wh0sy0urpapa
Nayrz
ZYK
Cranham
doublenikesocks
Swami
Engdrew
Aidin
brokenwings
MeHerman
gamer boy
Rob.
SlottedPig
smelliott
Genmizu
ZtehGreat
adf
red97
agentpatsy
hausdog
Erebyssial
MawileBitesKids
Breloomite
SurreptitiousStoner
Minority Suspect
SnoopysWorld
Moonclawz
Night Shrawd

If you are qualified but your name is not on the list, or if you are on the list but are unable to post, please private me.


When voting use the following format:

In addition to your vote, you must also post one(1) paragraph of reasoning explaining your choice. This is to determine whether or not you have been following the discussion, are knowledgable about the metagame, and have given good thought to this choice. Paragraphs with obviously poor or ill-formed reasoning will result in the corresponding vote being ignored. Voters who do not post paragraphs will have their votes ignored as well.

The paragraphs will be reviewed by the Ubers moderators: Hugendugen, Melee Mewtwo, Fireburn, and Theorymon. There is no minimum length for the paragraph. You should be the judge of what is enough. If you don't think its good enough, we won't either.

In order for Gengarite to to get banned, it will have to achieve a minimum 60% pro-ban supermajority OR two 50% pro-ban simple majorities. If a simple majority is reached, we will run another test for a shorter period, and then take another vote.

NOTE TO NEW VOTERS: this forum is moderated, if you submit your post but don't see it show up in the thread, then don't worry, it's perfectly normal.

If you have any question, then feel free to send me or one of the other Ubers mods a private message. Don't post anything but your vote/paragraph in this thread. Also, ONLY POST ONCE or you'll be infracted.

You have until one week from today (Sept 7th) to post your vote. We will then review all the votes/paragraphs and post the results when finished.

In order to ensure the integrity of the testing process, YOU WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO CHANGE YOUR VOTE ONCE IT IS POSTED.

Note: unless there is an OVERWHELMING majority against the Gengarite ban, we will continue with a Shadow Tag test regardless of whether Gengarite is banned or not. Also, since I saw it mentioned, the result of the test will in no way influence whether Ubers will remain in Official Tournaments.

 

[scene]

Mega Gengar: Ban

reasoning

I see Mega Gengar as uncompetitive in Ubers. It's got the ability to trap and kill whatever your teams needs it to by running a different fourth move like HP Fire, WoW or Focus Blast, to name a few. Fantastic speed and real power accentuate this ability. It means team matchup dominates games, and that the opponent's choice to switch is removed from them which is detrimental to the skill-based game we want to play in. Nothing in the game completely deals with Mega Gengar, and that means the opponent's chance to actually win against it is mostly determined on what moves you're using - and that's not healthy. Having to rely on 50/50s to beat it isn't skill and isn't competitive.

 

[OP]

I believe what Mega-Gengar does, is limit teambuilding to an extreme. If the problem is Mega-Gengar always being able to take out a counter for a sweeping pokemon, then you're forced to run multiple counters or one with a Shed Shell. If the problem is that it is always able to get multiple KOes and take down opposing pokemon with Destiny Bond, then that just makes it a strong pokemon that's able to be very successful in the ubers environment. I think you are always able to teambuild around any problems you could face with Mega-Gengar and that the only legitimate argument for it not being "skillful" is that it does force many 50/50s but that's just a part of Pokemon and is seen across all the tiers in the form of sucker punch, speed ties, etc. My vote is do not ban.

 

[Edgar]

Gengarite: Ban

I feel like Mega-Gengar is a very unhealthy presence to the metagame. The reason why I think Mega-Gengar should be banned is because it restricts teambuilding more than any pokemon, to the point where it makes some pokemon nearly impossible to use on a team, some examples of this being Arceus-Grass/Fairy, Sylveon, Clefable, Lugia, among many others. I'm someone who builds a lot of teams on the daily basis so knowing that Mega-Gengar is so prominent irritates me as I'm not able to build as freely as I would like to. Another reason why I think Mega-Gengar deserves to be banned is that it makes most of the games rely heavily on team matchup, where even though your team can do well facing the "must check" threats if they have a Mega-Gengar set that carries the right coverage moves for it to beat "X" pokemon's checks it can just trap and kill them and the user becomes completely defenseless against that certain sweeper. A good example of this is where user aim and I decided to run Hidden Power Fire Mega-Gengar so we could open a sweep for our Xerneas, having to not worry about Scizor. There are some other examples like Icy Wind just so you can trap and beat Landorus-T and Gliscor for Double Dance Groudon to sweep and using Thunder for Ho-Oh or Sp.Def Kyogre. On the other hand, Mega-Gengar also forces a lot 50/50 situations, where the battle is decided in a moment where you have to play around Destiny Bond and Taunt and since you can't switch out into a "check" you are limited to make only those two different plays, going for the support move and hope it doesn't Taunt you or attacking, predicting Taunt and hope it works out for the best. Other reason why I think Mega-Gengar should leave the tier is that it can escape Pursuit trappers, the main 3 Pursuit trappers are: Mega-Scizor, Tyranitar and Aegislash. Mega-Gengar can save its butt from Scizor with Hidden Power Fire, with Tyranitar it can Focus Blast and even with Chople Berry, it is a 2HKO, which again, forces 50/50s between Crunch and Pursuit and with Aegislash, it can just Shadow Ball it, 2HKOing it, while Aegislash flat out can't OHKO it, except if you're using Shadow Ball, which is a rather sub-par set.

 

[aim]

Gengarite: Ban

Mega Gengar needs to go. Its hinders team building more than any pokemon, restricting the use of support Arceus Grass/Fairy as well as other common walls like Lugia in fear of being trapped and shut down. It forces us to run arguably "bad sets" such as shed shell Blissey which can switch out but then what? switch to your next mon to get trapped or 5HK0 with Ice Beam. With Taunt Destiny Bond and Shadow Tag Mega Gengar has the ability to beat arguably any pokemon. If your check is Scarf Kyogre for instance and you switch in on the turn it mega evolves and Destiny Bond, you are trapped and shut down allowing other pokemon on the team that you needed Kyogre for to put in work. Gengar's unpredictability allows it to also beat any "check or counter." If Pursuit Mega Scizor is your check you can get blown back by HP Fire. Pursuit Aegislash also fears shadow ball. Gengar can also run moves like Icy Wind and Thunder to deal with Landorus-t, Gliscor and Kyogre. This allows teammates like Ekiller who appreciate those mons gone sweep. Mega Gengar is uncompetitive. Shadow Tag removes switches from the game (game mechanics) and forces 50/50's which are usually in favor of the Gengar user. A competitive game should not be about who gets this guess right and oh they have an advantage now. A lot of games are decided based on the 50/50's removing the competitiveness of the game. I believe Mega Gar should be banned.

 

[PROBLEMS]

Gengarite: ban

Yes, I feel that Gengarite should be banned. This is due to it giving users from what I feel is an unfair advantage in being able to 'choose to remove' a pokemon on an opponents team ( not to mention Mega-Gengars flawless and quite amazing stats) and deal with them by outspeeding the majority of the Pokemon in the whole of the game while doing an enormous amount of damage or even taking them out. This means Mega-Gengar considerably limits team building within the tier as you're restricted on what you can use the majority of the time as you're always worrying about the opponent using a Mega-Gengar, this is due to it as I said being able to trap these things also not to mention Gengars excellent typing in the first place which is perfect for the current metagame (due to the amount of fairys) its not even bulky but it still gets a lot of free switches and effectively 'picks them off' just 'take them out of the game' as most things can't afford to run a 4th move just to cover for it for example a few standard things in clefable/arceus support forms/chansey etc. Now, I know people run the argument that 'there's things that can handle with Mega-Genger that can comfortable come in and trap it like Tyranitar/Scizor/Aegislash' this is
now only depending on what coverage moves the Mega-Gengar has as you've no real way of knowing what It can hit you with as people run;
Hidden Power Fire for Scizor = Dies
Shadow Ball for Aegislash = Easy two hit and 50/50 mindgames are needed as predicting Shadow Sneak (Which most don't even carry) and the pursuit, also pursuit doesn't even 1 hit Mega-Gengar if it stays in
Focus Blast = Kills Tyranitar or does 90%+ Damage (without Copple obviously, which most don't run)
So this means that theres not actually nothing which 100% deals with it which means its obviously far too broken and powerful to have around. Not to mention it can effectively in tandem with other Pokemon 'Trap' things which would normally be used to stop them for example if it was a sweeper from sweeping other players teams, for example a common pairing with Mega-Gengar is Xerneas as a majority of walls for example like; Chansey/Blissey (which are forced to run shed shell just so that this doesn't happen or even a move) /Clefable/Scizor (talked about this)/Klefki and more which are needed on a team due to Xerneas's share overpowering stats and coverage anyway after a Geomancy for them not to get swept in the first place. This is an unfair advantage as it simply gives people an considerable advantage over alot of builds as you've got a more then effective way of countering building styles and as I said earlier limiting building itself.

 

[badabing]

ban

gengar is too good at forcing kills, abusing an inherently uncompetitive facet of mons to an unprecedented degree (by a long shot). the offensive capacity of its speed and power in tandem with its expansive movepool allow gar to zero in on an incredibly wide array of targets to the point where it is impossible to build around. not only does gengar function as a swiss army knife of support, but its movepool lets it adapt to and sidestep conventional checks in the metagame, making it an even tougher customer matchup-wise. on top of all that, gar is a decent threat in itself, especially compared to other tag abusers which are basically bumps on a log but still manage to make their presence felt... i mean it can check ekiller lol. these factors combine to give gengar very little drawback with gamebreaking reward, especially in a tier like ubers where its not super hard to pave the way for all the godly sh*t.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Ban Gengarite

The Ubers metagame is a place that revolves around having certain checks and counters to certain Pokemon, and the ability to trap and eliminate them is huge. Because of Shadow Tag, Gengar is able to completely open up and cripple stall with ease while also being able to help a teammate sweep against balance. Not only that, however, but with 170 Special Attack and 130 Speed, Gengar has no trouble doing well against offensive teams, either. There's also the fact this this Pokemon forces 50 / 50's; while I will admit there are 50 / 50's in many battles, just having Gengar on your team is going to force them almost every single time. Combine this with the fact that Gengar is everywhere because, well, it is so strong, and that's a lot of 50 / 50's you have to play against.

All in all, I think a comparison to Sleep Clause helps to illustrate how Gengar is broken.

In a metagame with Sleep clause, most teams would run Darkrai, normally shit items like Safety Goggles would become viable, and overall it would become a metagame based around a single status effect. With Shadow Tag legal, Mega Gengar would be on most teams, normally shit items like Shed Shell would become viable, and overall it would become a metagame based around guesswork and trapping.

 

[SlottedPig]

Ubers is, first and foremost, Smogon's "metagame with the least amount of bans." It's easy to see Ubers as just a banlist, an environment where everything can be set loose. I see this as lazy argument and an appeal to tradition. Ubers is a metagame that's played in tourneys, and while its metagame is bizarre and overcentralized around a handful of Pokemon, it's fun and (mostly) competitive and has had various clauses in order to balance the "ban-list": Species Clause and Swagger Clause are the two obvious examples, and the philosophical hurdle is as I see it the first and most important step (should Ubers be allowed to ban a Pokemon?).

While Gengar isn't uncompetitive in the sense that it doesn't singlehandedly turn the game into a coin flip like Swagger or Evasion Pass, it is the single most team-matchup defining Pokemon of this generation. While it doesn't impact all team archetypes evenly, its ability to systematically eliminate defensive cores on its own makes it imo fairly imbalanced. Putting Mega Gengar on your team is basically hoping to eliminate a certain core or Pokemon's checks and counters but instantly winning you the game whenever you get matched up against a particularly vulnerable defensive core -- a core which may as well be fine were it not for the presence of Mega Gengar.

Lastly, Gengar lacks meaningful counterplay besides Pursuit. Gengar easily comes in on supportive and defensive Pokemon (e.g. Defog Arceus) and after it mega evolves, sending in said supportive / defensive Pokemon is a risk every single time, and is heavily tilted on Gengar's side. Even Pursuit isn't a surefire answer to it, since if you don't KO it immediately as it mega evolves, then you will have to go into more guessing games to prevent it from taking a kill, but Gengar 2HKOs most Pursuiters if they switch in directly.

Also, everything bad that can be sad about Mega Gengar can also be said about Evasion Pass.
If Smogon's aim is to balance this game (all tiers, including Ubers), then Mega Gengar is a good place to start.

 

[aVocado]

Gengarite: Ban

Shadow Tag is an ability that removes choice from the opponent and gives the rest of the team immense support by removing any Pokemon the user desires. An example of this, and it's what I did when I was laddering for reqs, is using Mega Gengar on a team that stacks hazards to remove the opponent's Defogger, and then allow other Pokemon to have a much easier time sweeping while keeping all the hazards. I've come against a lot of Defog Arceus and Mega Gengar eliminated them almost every single time. I don't remember any Fairyceus or Grasseus (the two most common Defog Arceus types from my experience on the ladder) ever escaping from Mega Gengar once it mega evolved. There were also a lot of Waterceus, but Gengar can handle that with Taunt + Destiny Bond--but to be honest, it requires a timely double switch, even though it's not that hard--, which is an amazing combination and with Shadow Tag, can almost guarantee at least one Pokemon down from the opponent's team. The team I used was Level 56's (thanks for the team!) and while using it, I exploited Mega Gengar to remove a lot of specific Pokemon--things like Grassceus (again), Palkia (with D.bond), Blissey/Chansey and even the opponent's own Kyogre-- for another Pokemon (in the team it was Scarf Kyogre) to just rip through the opponent's team. An argument that can be used against Mega Gengar is the fact that it requires a turn to Mega Evolve. While that's true and can be annoying sometimes, I don't think its a valid argument because it can easily come in on a revenge kill and, seeing as how Mega Gengar is pretty damn strong and regular Gengar is decently fast, easily Mega Evolve while revenge killing. Additionally, I only used 1 set of Mega Gengar, but there are other sets and a lot of options that Mega Gengar can run, namely HP Fire, Focus Blast, and Icy Wind, to target any Pokemon it wishes. This is all because of the fact that Mega Gengar (and Shadow Tag) removes choice from the opponent's hands, and unlike Gothitelle and Wobbufett which I also think do the same, Mega Gengar has an exceptional offensive presence and is very fast.

 

[Nayrz]

Gengarite: Ban

After all has been said and done, I believe that Gengarite is uncompetitive for any singles metagame. The ability Shadow Tag takes away the only way to counterplay in a singles metagame, and even in the titan-filled Ubers tier this is no exception. As there has been argument over what "uncompetitve" means, I will add what I think it means. My definition of uncompetitive is something that can take control from a players hands, and once Mega Gengar is in play that is exactly what happens (if played the way it should be), leaving the opposing player helpless and unable to fight back. I won't go into how its movepool and stats add to this, as I don't believe that should be viewed as a way to ban something from this tier, but it certainly adds to the "uncompetitive" aspect that Gengarite poses. I also worry about the Ubers tier being viewed as an unplayable metagame and being removed from official tournaments as a result, which for a tier I thoroughly enjoy playing is something I do not wish to happen. Ubers is "the metagame with the least amount of bans possible" but I believe that Gengarite crosses this line. For these reasons i am voting to Ban Gengarite.

 

[HeIIraiser]

Gengarite: Do Not Ban

Mega Gengar has two immunities, high stats, good speed, good and wide movepool, fast Destiny Bond and with shadow tag it becomes very powerful. It is also a fantastic suport pokémon, since there is a high chance you will kill what you are aiming to kill (Mega Scizor with HP Fire and Chansey/Blissey with Taunt+damage, for example), allowing you to make your late game sweep happen. While Mega Gengar certainly is powerful and centralizes the current uber metagame, it is as strong as other pokémon in the tier and I don't find it (or Shadow Tag) to be uncompetitive. I believe uncompetitive elements of the game to be only luck based moves or abilities (Swagger, Sand Veil, Moody, etc) and uber to be a tier where you are allowed to use the most powerful strategies and pokémons (like Mega Gengar, Geomancy Xerneas, Arceus, Mega Mewtwo Y, etc). I've seen matchups where Mega Gengar could do absolutely nothing, so it's not always a "guaranteed easy kill" if the players are (they should be) prepared to face it. To finish my point, I like to compare Mega Gengar in XY uber to Spore in BW ou (where sleep resets). Although Spore is almost always guaranteed to get a kill, using it well (in the right moment of the match) requires skill, and the same applies to Mega Gengar. Like Mega Gengar (or Shadow Tag) in xy uber, Spore in bw ou is for sure an awesome strategy, but it's not uncompetitive in any way.

 

[alexwolf]

Ban Gengarite

Mega Gengar makes the Ubers metagame uncompetitive by removing the option of switching out, one of the most fundamental mechanics in the game of Pokemon, while being powerful enough to make the fact that you can't switch out a big hindrance (unlike for example Wynaut). While the opponent has one turn to try and deal with Mega Gengar because it needs to MEvolve, Mega Gengar has the versatility to deal with all of its checks and counters, such as Pursuit Mega Scizor and Pursuit Tyranitar, with HP Fire, Focus Blast, and Destiny Bond, which means that preparing for Mega Gengar when teambuilding almost never addresses the problem to its core. Another reason why Mega Gengar is uncompetitive is because it decreases the importance of skill in the game, by making match up a way more important factor for determining the winner, depending on how many Pokemon that Mega Gengar can trap and OHKO the opponent has. Of course a lot of things make the metagame more match up based and don't reduce the importance of skill in the game, such as good team building, and correct risk-reward measurement and decisions so that the team with the match-up disadvantage can still overcome this obstacle and win, without making overly risky and dangerous plays that could be compared to coin flips. However, this isn't the case with Mega Gengar, because the team that has the disadvantage when facing Mega Gengar can't overcome this obstacle with normal risk-reward measurement and decisions but has to rely on risky and dangerous plays to win, because of the sheer pressure that Mega Gengar puts to the opponent. Every Mega Gengar weak Pokemon is in constant danger of getting trapped after Mega Gengar MEvolves, which makes it unable to function effectively and contribute the things it was supposed to when it was put in the team. And it's impossible to build a team that doesn't have Mega Gengar weak Pokemon because of Mega Gengar's great Speed, power, and versatility, that allow it to trap and KO a huge number of Pokemon and also make it highly customizable to fit every team's needs. All in all, Mega Gengar directly undermines the importance of skill in the game for the reasons stated above, which is why it should be banned from Ubers.

 

[haxiom]

Alright! Let's get started. So, I see a lot of users post thoughts in the suspect thread and they really don't know what constitutes a ban in Ubers. I felt like it would be really important to identify the criteria for a ban in Ubers before I set out to analyze arguments and draw conclusions, as it would be very helpful to have a goal, some sort of concept of end, to give direction to my logic. I also need to back up and prove that the criteria I am using is valid, since otherwise the arguments do not stand. It would be akin to building a house without a foundation- the house cannot stand without it. So, lets take a look at something Fireburn said: "Is Gengarite an uncompetitive element of the metagame that needs to be removed to preserve the competitive integrity of Ubers, within the current paradigm of Ubers?" So I think it is pretty clear that the basis we are banning Gengar on is uncompetitiveness and not brokenness. I see this way to often, in the suspect thread and in the Ubers room. We definitely have to recognize that this is not an OU suspect test, and this is probably one of the most annoying, infuriating things I see. You can see perfectly well that it has been explicitly stated here, so any arguments that involve brokenness are void. This is the obvious part. However, I don't think it is a simple "is Gengar uncompetitive or not?" There is more to this. The second part of the above quote says "within the current paradigm of Ubers". I interpret this to mean that the potential banning of Gengar cannot set a precedence. In other words, even if Gengar is uncompetitive, we cannot compromise the current paradigm of Ubers in its ban. I'll give an analogy. If you were building an Ubers team, and the team lacked strong defensive switches into Ho-Oh (however at the same time did a very good job of pressuring it), and the team needed a switch-in to Kyogre, Palkia is obviously a much better choice than Grassceus, because Grassceus gives Ho-Oh free switches. If Grassceus is chosen, you gain a switch-in to Kyogre, but compromise security versus Ho-Oh. In a similar way, if we ban Gengar assuming that it has been proven uncompetitive, we cannot compromise the "current paradigm of Ubers." Now, I am aware that it has been said that regardless of what decision is made, the decision will not be made a precedence for anything and Xerneas, Kyogre, etc. will not be banned, which I get. However, I think that while the ban will not set a precedent for banning things that are broken, like the aforementioned ones, it will however, change the way we perceive Ubers as a whole. In other words, banning Gengar might not directly impact future bans, however it may do so indirectly by effectively changing what "Ubers" is or means. I know a lot of arguments revolve around whether Ubers is a banlist or a tier, and I feel like it has been expressed that Ubers is both. Ubers's function as a banlist simply means that "Uber" is what we call things that are too strong for OU. That's it. After that it's a metagame, which has been defined previously by former Ubers Leader bojangles as "the metagame with the least amount of bans." What does that mean though? Well, it is a tier in the sense that it wants to be competitive, it wants to be an environment which nothing is turning the game into a luck oriented, boring, uncompetitive game. However, it is also a banlist in the sense that it aims to be very selective and limited in what it chooses to ban, as a banlist needs to be careful of banning things should it eventually not become a banlist at all and merely a higher tier with a banlist above even it. Bear in mind that I am not assuming the banning of Gengarite sets a precedent, this part is only applicable if I successfully prove that it sets a precedence, which I intend to do. So besides being told to do so, why is making sure we don't set a precedent so important? Why do we even care about the integrity of Ubers? Well, let's say that Gengar is banned, and it changes the definition of Ubers itself. Where do we put Gengar? It has been established that it ceases to exist. What if it keeps going though? At what point will the Ubers Banlist become a tier itself? And what happens when the playerbase for that is strong enough that people are starting to push for bans in that? The cycle continues on an endless loop, on and on and on... It sounds far fetched but isn't that kind of how we got here? I just want to go over one last thing before we start analyzing the arguments. I am going to take this from an "innocent unless proven guilty" viewpoint. This means that Gengar has to be proven to be uncompetitive by the pro-ban side, while the anti-ban only has to counter-argue that. It is a mentality in many courts to do it like this, so as not to convict an innocent man. Why? Because, if you err on the side of caution, and accidentally acquit a guilty man, that is grace, since he doesn't deserve to be acquitted but is by grace. However, if you were to convict an innocent man, that is unjust, because he deserves acquittal but does not receive it. Now, it seems silly to apply moral vocabulary to the banning of a pokemon in Ubers, but that is exactly what I am doing, because it is a similar scenario, only on a smaller scale. I will be starting with the pro-ban arguments now. These are rough paraphrases by the way. "Gengarite should be banned because it has a great combination of speed, power, Taunt, Destiny Bond, and Perish Song in addition to Shadow Tag which makes it uncompetitive." I really dislike this argument. To me, it is one of the weakest that the pro-ban side has argued. Effectively, you say something like "Mega Gengar is so good, it is uncompetitive." This argument is the exact opposite of what we are supposed to be doing here. This argument is the epitome of treating this suspect test like an OU one. It is a brokenness argument, and therefore invalid as it has been stated by the criteria of an Ubers ban that has been identified. In addition to this, banning Gengarite for this reason sets a precedence. What if I said, "x should be banned because it has a combination of a great ability in Fairy Aura, good speed, excellent power and coverage, and access to the best setup move in the game in Geomancy which makes it uncompetitive"? Next Argument. "Gengarite should be banned because it forces an overly matchup based metagame which is inherently uncompetitive." Contrary to the previous argument, I find this to be quite a solid argument. I have seen anti-ban people shrug this off saying that all the other bans are RNG based, citing Swagger, OHKO, etc. However, I disagree with that sentiment for two reasons (and yes I am defending this argument, I'm trying to not be biased). Firstly, there is no rule that states that uncompetitive 100% equates to RNG abuse. Secondly, even if that was the interpretation, in a way a matchup based metagameis RNGs. If a game is utterly and completely decided at the matchup, then the mental coinflip that you do when choosing a teamisRNGs. However, although I find this response to be lackluster, I do have a different counter-argument to interject. I think that, like any mon, Mega-Gengar is beat in the teambuilder. I don't necessarily even necessarily mean pursuit only. One thing that I have seen is running Punishment on Arceus formes- and before people hate on this, absolutely refusing to run Punishment to deal with stag, it's not too different from running other stuff in the meta. People run Thunder Wave on Groudon and Palkia to prevent Xerneas from setting up, so why can't we run Punishment, or any other move to beat stag? Furthermore, let's say I build a team that is weak to Extreme Killer Arceus. Following this, I enter a battle in which my opponent brings Extreme Killer Arceus, and I consequently lose as I am weak to it. That is just called bad teambuilding. However, I were to replace Ekiller with Mega Gengar, it is called uncompetitive. That just doesn't add up. I do recognize that it is much harder to check and stuff, but that still doesn't make much more sense. Moving on. "Gengarite should be banned because it takes away meaningful choice by preventing the opponent from switching." I think this is one of the more difficult arguments to consider, because there are simply so many subjective things that come in to play. There are two parts of skill, being teambuilding and gameplay, and while the previous argument is in regards to the former, this argument is pertinent to the latter. When I say it is subjective, I mean things like "what constitutes a meaningful choice?" and "is there a difference in whether we ban for taking away choice versus meaningful choice" and "is it a choice to avoid the situation altogether" and such. Regarding the first, I do concede that it is not necessarily meaningful, as often it is a 50/50 or you do have a choice but an irrelevant one. Granted, you have a choice to begin with, so I would venture to say that you have a choice, albeit not a meaningful one. Regarding the second, we are banning for the removal of skill from the game, not choice. So I guess neither are particularly applicable but I guess lack of meaningful choice definitely is close to removing skill. However, the last one is tricky. Within the battle, the pro-ban side has done a good job of arguing that you cannot outplay Gengar, and I concede that. It doesn't necessarily have a counter per se, though I feel like most offensive threats can run x coverage to defeat x counter (i.e. Grass Knot Ekiller for Quagsire). However, what about pre-game preparation? This now reverts back to the previous teambuilding argument. At the end of the day, I struggle to argue against this, but it is relatively subjective in nature, so that makes it kind of hard to do so. Next. "Gengarite should be banned because it naturally forces a lot of 50/50s in the current metagame, which is unhealthy and uncompetitive."I definitely see where this argument is coming from; coinflips indeed are uncompetitive. However, there are other things that also force 50/50s. Let's take Aegislash for example. It can force a lot of 50/50s when it checks something like Substitute Geomancy Xerneas (and other stuff as well, but this is very tangible one). In this scenario, we call Aegislash, a shaky check. On the other hand, we take something like Pursuit Tyranitar andwant it to be a full one hundred percent counter to Gengar, and when it forces 50/50's, we are disappointed and call Gengar uncompetitive. I do not think having shaky checks is uncompetitive, because from the other side you have a shaky threat. It's very difficult to counter, but by that logic Mewtwo should be banned because that has like no perfect counters. I will make a note that a difference between Aegislash and Gengar is that because of Shadow Tag, Gengar forces you to participate in that 50/50, whereas in Aegislash's case, either of the parties involved can simply switch out and avoid the 50/50 altogether. As for the 50/50's leading up to Gengar's entrance, for example wondering if they are going to double to Gengar. Aside from this being tied to "avoiding" the situation, there is another point I would like to make. You have a Sylveon that needs to switch in to Yveltal, but your opponent might predict this and go to Gengar and then he breaks my core. My challenge to this is, let's say you have a Sylveon that needs to switch in to Yveltal, but your opponent has a CB Ho-Oh, something that your own team has not switch-ins for. If they double to that, you are forced out and similarly, they break your core. What is the difference here? Well of course, you can't switch out of Gengar, but fundamentally, I think there is no real major difference. You have a Gengar weak team and Gengar breaks your core. You have a Ho-Oh weak team and Ho-Oh breaks your core. Next. "Gengarite should be banned because it limits teambuilding to a point where most fairies and grass types are almost unviable, and is therefore uncompetitive." I disagree with this argument. A lot of mons limit teambuilding- let's look at Giratina. Because of the existence of stuff like Xerneas, its viability has significantly worsened to the point where when you see it your opinion of your opponent drops. Stealth Rocks were introduced and makes a lot of pokemon (barring Ho-Oh) much, much more unviable. Xerneas limits teambuilding to a point where Giratina is almost unviable. Stealth Rocks limits teambuilding to a point where pokemon that are weak to it drop significantly in viability. In the same vein, Mega Gengar limits teambuilding to a point where fairies and grasses are almost unviable. I get that Gengar's is a wider, more general limitation whereas Xerneas's is specific, and Stealth Rocks' is to a lesser degree, but the point stands. Banning Gengar for this reason sets a precedence. I will now be moving to the anti-ban arguments. Before we start I want to point out that I am aware that I do not need to prove this, because I proved that it was unnecessary earlier. However, I want to analyze these arguments anyways for the sake of equity and symmetry and making a few points. "Gengarite should not be banned because it encourages high level prediction and double-switching." Dice hit this one pretty hard. If anything, it makes less high level, and more high stakes prediction, which means that skilled players may struggle in risk-reward situations where neither situation is a low risk one. I don't have much to say here that Dice hasn't already said, you can find his post I guess. Next. "Gengarite should not be banned because this is Ubers, and we do NOT ban stuff in Ubers." I cringe when I hear this argument. Every time. I agree with the sentiment that we don't want to set a precedent, but I feel like this is a bad argument because it doesn't make any relevant points. It just shuts out all other points and doesn't meaningfully consider whether Gengar is ban-worthy or not. It is a cop-out argument. Next. "Gengarite should not be banned because it is to fragile to do anything useful." Similar veins still. This is kind of the opposite of the "Gengar is so broken" argument. It is saying Gengar is not broken, which is wrong in my opinion. Gengar is hilariously broken. But we are arguing for uncompetitiveness, as you recall. Moving on. "Gengarite should not be banned because it takes one turn to mega-evolve, allowing opportunities to revenge or pursuit trap it." I am not too keen on this argument either. As pro-ban users have worked so hard to prove, pursuiting isn't a magic "poof" and Gengar is dead and a non-threat. However, this does tie back to "counterable" and whether uncounterable is equal to uncompetitive. I do not think it does, since as I previously mentioned, most threats can bypass certain threats by running specific coverage for it. Next. "Gengarite should not be banned because, like any other Pokemon, it is beat in the teambuilder." This is the argument I come back to a lot, as I find it pretty strong. A current example is running Shed Shell Blissey, so that it is not Shadow Tag fodder. Not being weak to Shadow Tag is a pretty good way to counter it, no? This argument has already been hit a lot, it's a counter argument for the matchup reliance argument from the pro-ban side. There will always be good and bad matchups, but getting as many good matchups to common playstyles as you can is ideal. We are now done with analyzing arguments, and will be moving on to talking briefly about precedentss. I just want to make an overall note about why the banning of Mega Gengar inherently will set aprecedence, as it makes a difference in my overall decision. At the beginning of this post, I worked to prove that if Gengar were to be banned, it would have to be proven that it does not set a precedence. First of all, the banning of Gengar will set a precedence, since it is a pokemon, or forme, or whatever. Lets say there is a gun that the government needs to make illegal. This gun can only use a specific type of ammunition also. However, since this is the first weapon to be banned, and the citizens do not want a precedence set so that other weapons are not banned because they like their weapons. The government has two options. They can simply ban the gun itself, or alternately, they can ban the ammunition. However, whichever one they ban, it still sets a precedence does it not? Both would be under some umbrella category, something like "Weapon Control Laws" or to that effect. My point is, whether we ban a mon, a forme of a mon, or a means of accessing a mon, we are going to ultimately feel the same about it in regards to precedence setting. Aside from this however, there is a second reason I think the Gengarite ban will set a precedence. If we ban Gengar and there is a "Gengarite Clause," then there is the possibility that Shadow Tag as a whole will not get banned. This itself is unnerving to me because if Gengar is banned and only Gengar, it means that it has more of a reason to be banned, it implies that Gengar is a better user of Shadow Tag than Gothitelle and Wobbuffet, and in this comes the danger that that means that somewhere in there, Gengar's brokenness came into play as opposed to uncompetitiveness. Even if both were banned, the fact that there needed to be a "Gengarite Clause" in addition to a "Shadow Tag Clause" at some point (I doubt they will both be in effect but still) implies that Gengar needed a separate ban clause, which goes back to what I just said about brokenness. We have reached the end. Time to wrap this up. Is Gengar-Mega an uncompetitive force in the metagame?I'm struggling with this. It's really close. On one hand, I don't think there are many good anti-ban arguments, and on the other hand there don't really need to be many. The pro-ban side has made good points, two standing out in particular. However, I feel like the matchup argument is argued successfully by the teambuilder one and the meaningful choice argument is subject... I guess what I'm saying is, as for whether Gengar is fully an uncompetitive force, it's borderline. It's kind of like, Gengar is uncompetitive, but only if you let it be. Does the banning of the Gengarite affect our current perception of Ubers and/or compromise the current paradigm of Ubers? If you were wondering why I was able to just kind of go meh on that last part, this is why. I think Gengar does indeed compromise the current paradigm of Ubers as I have tried to prove in this post. So basically, we have a null for the first part and a yes for the second part, so I am going to vote NO BAN. Thank you for reading.

 

[Bughouse]

tl;dr Voting on Gengarite is incorrect procedure that would fail to solve the issues of uncompetitiveness many claim exist. Either Shadow Tag as a whole is uncompetitive or it isn't. As I don't have to ban Gengarite in order to proceed to a vote on Shadow Tag, I vote no ban and will make up my mind about STag as a whole at a later date.

Gengarite: Do Not Ban

I have always been uncomfortable with banning Gengarite, an item, due to a mechanic that results from changing Gengar's forme. In my view, Gengarite could only be bannable for being uncompetitive if Mega Gengar were the only viable user of Shadow Tag. The result of a ban vote in that case would be the least restrictive banlist that effectively solves any problems of uncompetitiveness. However, Gothitelle (and to a lesser extent Wobbuffet) is also a viable Pokemon and it is clear that banning Gengarite alone would not remove the potentially uncompetitive elements that Shadow Tag causes. Gothitelle's influence on team matchup versus bulky teams is immense. For example, Haruno's Team Makiri is a quite viable ladder team, but it more or less gets 6-0ed by Gothitelle. The conclusion I draw from my experience facing all the Shadow Tag users is that if Gengarite is uncompetitive it is only because Shadow Tag as a whole is uncompetitive.

At the beginning of the test it was stated that a vote on Shadow Tag as a whole would be dependent on Gengarite's ban. Thankfully this is no longer the case. Before, I'm not sure how I would have voted. I would have had to come to an ultimate decision about Shadow Tag to inform my first vote. With that prerequisite gone, if there is a problem (of which I am still unconvinced either way) I will decide on it in the second vote to come. In the meantime I'm not comfortable banning an item when an ability should be what's on trial.

As to abstaining, I feel voting No Ban is superior since banning Gengarite now would heavily skew future votes about Shadow Tag as a whole. I'd rather that vote take place after a test that contains all Shadow Tag users, not one without Mega Gengar.

 

[MMII]

Do Not Ban

The presence of Mega Gengar is definitely making Ubers an uncompetitive metagame, there's no doubt in my mind on that. However, what bothers me is that a Gengarite ban would be falsely claiming that Gengarite itself is uncompetitive. I strongly like the logic of you ban what's broken and in this case what's breaking Ubers's philosophy is Shadow Tag. Mega Gengar is merely a very effective user of this element and Ubers has never targeted specific abusers instead of the problematic element itself. I dislike what sort of precedent this cherry picking would set and, especially given some recent circumstances, would like to be crystal clear on what's get banned from Ubers and why rather than simply looking at the end result.

 

[Mizuhime]

Gengarite: BAN

In my opinion Mega Gengar is the single most un competitive Pokemon in the history of the game. It restricts one of the one most crucial components that has been apart of competitive play since the very beginning in RBY, switching. Mega Gengar also restricts the way teams are built, forcing people to not use walls such as Lugia, or popular support Pokemon such as Arceus Grass and Fairy because they will end up being useless in a match vs MGar. It also forces people to use arguably bad sets on stall teams such as Shed Shell Blissey. I also think that Gengar's supporting capability is unmatched. It can remove any Pokemon it wants to just by slightly editing it's moveset. HP Fire for Scizor, Icy Wind for Landorus, Thunder for Kyogre and Dbond for anything else. These are the reasons I feel it should be banned from play.

 

[Mr.378]

To put it simply, ubers is a tier of overpowered pokemon and that is what Mega Gengar is. In order for it to be banned it must be shown as inherently uncompetitive, which it is not. The one thing about it which can be considered uncompetitive is shadow tag being such an overly powerful force on it that it objectively makes the game so much more luck based that an unrepresented exception will have to be taken and an individual "pokemon" will be banned. Shadow Tag, on Mega Gengar at least, is not that. It is an element of ubers that is very powerful and is very much worth consideration in building a team. It isn't exactly an uncompetitive power though as it can be prepared for in a controllable way by team building around it. It is different from every other element that has been deemed uncompetitive and banned because it still leaves some semblance of control to the players, as opposed to leaving the game to coin flips or dice rolls. It may be centralizing, and it may heavily discourage the use of some playstyles and pokemon over others, but that is merely being overcentralizing in a tier which is based off of overcentralizing pokemon. Therefore, a ban would run contrary to the point of the tier and as such I am voting no ban in this suspect test.

 

[Focus]

Gengarite is certainly a thorn in the side of the Ubers metagame currently, but I have not been convinced that Mega Gengar is so stupidly overpowered or overall detrimental to competitive play to warrant a ban from Ubers, already the land of uncounterable threats and restrictive teambuilding. The threshold of a ban from Ubers is by necessity much higher than that of OU to maintain the status of Ubers as the competitive metagame with the least bans, or the metagame/tier where you are free to use pretty much anything you want (to a reasonable extent). Playing with or against Mega Gengar is indeed a challenge because one wrong prediction or instance of bad luck usually means a fainted Pokémon that was crucial to your win condition. However through my laddering this past month, I have found Mega Gengar not to be more of a nuisance to competitive play than other high-profile threats. Gengarite simply is not worth banning, in my opinion.

Gengarite: Do Not Ban

 

[MMII]

Please, bold your vote so that we can easily tally things up.

 

[Ecuacion]

Gengarite: Ban

I do not agree with banning a pokemon or Item from all Singles tiers, but i think gengarite is not healthy for the Ubers tier. The main problem is Mega Gengar's ability, Shadow tag, which does not let switching. That is really uncompetitive because a counter is a Pokemon in which you switch in order to resist foe's moves and get an advantage, and if you can't switch, Mega Gengar can trap weak pokemon for it and kill them. Although there are other pokemon with the ability, they are not so powerful, fast and with the typing and movepool of Mega Gengar. It can trap pokemon like Jirachi or Chansey and get a sweep possibility with a Xerneas if the foe had these pokemon for countering it. It can also trap a Sword dance Arceus and make some 50-50 with destiny bond and taunt. Its trapping possibilities are a lot, much more than Other pokemon with the ability shadow tag (Gothitelle and Wobbuffet). For this powerful and annoying ability of Mega Gengar i voted Ban for Gengarite.

 

[Inspirited]

The best way to describe my stance is that I believe Gengarite is no longer the sole issue of our problem. In order to ban in Ubers, the element in question must be deemed as a obscenely large negative influence on a competitive metagame, and it needs to actually be actively influencing the metagame on a large scale. Gengarite does both of these, but it does it through the ability Shadow Tag. Until recently, Mega Gengar was the only Shadow Tag user present and actively influencing the metagame on a large scale. This changed when people began noticing Gothitelle for what it could do. Gothitelle is almost equally as uncompetitive as Mega Gengar and actually has sweeping potential of its own which is something Mega Gengar covets and has an extremely hard time doing. It is just as negative on the competitive metagame as Gengarite, but like I said, it didn't start largely influencing the metagame until recently. Both Gengarite and Gothitelle cause the same unfairly bet on coin flips due to Shadow Tag. Now that both of these are filling the requirements of a ban, banning just Gengarite goes against the philosophy of Ubers being a competitive tier with the least amount of bans possible (If you want me to elaborate on this, PM me since this is another paragraph in itself). In the interest of not violating this philosophy (and saving us a ban), my on Gengarite is Do Not Ban. If Shadow Tag gets tested, my vote will be much different.

Gengarite: No Ban

 

[Legitimate Username]

Ban Gengarite on the grounds that Shadow Tag as a whole is uncompetitive. The definition of uncompetitive is as follows: Uncompetitive game aspects (or strategies) are those that take away autonomy (control of the game's events), take it out of the hand's of player's decisions-- and do so to a degree that can be considered uncompetitive. Shadow Tag fits this definition like a glove. Removing switching, which is one of the most important mechanics of the game, means that Mega Gengar has essentially zero counterplay when used to its full potential. Even though it takes a turn before Shadow Tag is brought into effect, there are an abundance of threats that Mega Gengar can easily use to gain a free turn from, and once it has Mega-evolved, it no longer carries this drawback and can freely trap an opposing Pokémon when given the chance. Mega Gengar is also overcentralizing to the point that games will often be determined by its ability to trap a key opposing Pokémon in order to pave the way for a sweeper to rampage through the opponent's team uncountered. Because Mega Gengar can pick and choose what it goes up against due to the opponent being unable to switch out, it is almost guaranteed to make at least one KO per game. Having access to moves such as Destiny Bond and Perish Song only makes it easier for it to KO opponents. Hidden Power Fire and Focus Blast also let it deal with Scizor and Tyranitar, two threats that could otherwise potentially Pursuit-trap it but are instead shaky checks at best. Gengarite has an extremely negative impact on the metagame and very much needs to be removed.

 

[GazR]

To start off NO BAN.

Anyway, this potential ban is a very delicate one because the situation can be viewed in many possible ways: Is it right to ban a single pokemon from Ubers? The definition of Ubers, the way Gengarite removes a significant aspect of the game (switching); but the actual question, is "Does Gengarite have a significant negative impact on the Ubers game mode?". My answer to this is no. This is because the only reason the ban should happen is because it removes the choice of switching, which can have a huge impact on a game, but then it would pose the question of whether shadow tag should be banned or gengarite or is it the combination of the two? Well, switching wise, many things that prevent this would still be possible, even if not practical or wise (Prankster mean look; meowstic, sableye// Shadow tag Gothitelle/Wobbu). And I only mention these because the removal of switching is built into the game and even with the ban would still exist, so the reason for banning should not be considered purely on the basis of that Gengarite locks opposing pokemon in, it should be viewed at as a whole. Gengarite's impact in ubers is usually limited to suicide killing, it may be able to take down 2 pokemon in a match but usually does not have the potential to completely cripple a team. Furthermore skill is still definitely part of this because for example: Groudon vs Gengar, whether it mega evolves altogether is a question, because it might want to keep it's ground immunity whilst it taunts, if it mega evolves it could destiny bond and possibly get thunder waved or taunt and possibly get earthquaked. Gengarite does have some sort of impact on teambuilding because you don't want to be left with a team that gets crippled by a Gengar because they're usually quite common but to no way near the extent that Xerneas and E-Killer influence team building.

If I were to compare Gengarite to another pokemon it would be Magnezone in OU simply because you have to predict its switch ins; but it can definitely be caught out and is not the MOST powerful of pokemon in its tier. It is a very troublesome pokemon to get around but only if the opponent uses it extremely well, but there are a lot of pokemon that do those sorts of things and that's just part of the game. Gengar needs to mega evolve and requires a free turn to do so. In all, even though it's annoying to deal with, I wouldn't considering it damaging to the meta game. It's actually very hard to justify why something isn't damaging without responding to a point claiming why it's damaging and the only one of these points i consider a worthwhile one is the one which is targeting shadow tag and the inability to switch freely, which i have already responded to.

 

[Thetwinmasters]

GENGARITE: DO NOT BAN

2 fgts named dice and piex will quit if we keep mgar enough reasoning IMO

This suspect is based on the thought is mgar sufficiently uncompetitive to warrent a ban as here from the main thread. "The aim of this suspect test is to gauge both whether we are comfortable removing a Pokemon form entirely and then whether Gengarite or Shadow Tag as a whole in fact are sufficiently uncompetitive." To figure this out we need to know what is the definition for uncompetitiveness from smogon which is here from the OU Council as a universal definition for smogon. "Uncompetitive game aspects (or strategies) are those that take away autonomy (control of the game's events), take it out of the hand's of player's decisions-- and do so to a degree that can be considered uncompetitive. While there is always luck involved in Pokemon, the problem is the degree to which control is taken away from the player. Removal of autonomy is the key to an uncompetitive tiering decision or clause." While obviously Shadow Tag does remove some control of the game's event by removing the option to switch i don't think that the degree it removes choice can be considered enough to be uncompetitive and thus worthy of a ban. When comparing gengarite to other clauses we have to restrict aspects of the game due to being uncompetitive i don't believe mgar reaches that level of uncompetitiveness.

Swagger Clause: This move removed all choice from the game and replaced it with hoping you hit when confused which meant the only factor was the rng in most games with the move.

OHKO Clause: With OHKO moves you had a 30% chance to instantly remove a mon and there is no counter play against this so you just have to hope it misses to have a chance to make your decision count at all.

Moody Clause: This is pretty much similar to swagger where you have to hope to get insanely lucky to win and pretty much makes the only factor the rng in games which makes your choice irrelevant.

Sleep Clause: Having no sleep clause made it so you just spammed sleep moves and made the other persons choice non existent either it was switch out to get sleeped again or pray that sleep talk gets a good move or hope you get a 1 turn sleep which is all reliant on the rng.

Species Clause: I have never tested this so i will not comment on this

Endless Battle Clause: this was to stop people from making the ladder a game of who has more time to waste and doesn't rly matter.

Swagger, OHKO, and moody turn games into 100% rng controlled which makes playing the game pointless instead we could just play russian roulette IMO. The most comparable clause to Mgar would be Sleep clause but i believe since sleep is mostly based on rng which is the Sleep Talk Roll or the Sleep length timer compared to mgar which doesn't rely on mgar it is much more uncompetitive since it removes more choice. I believe mgar doesn't come close to being as uncompetitive as our other clauses and thus should not be banned.