Encore and Charge Moves

[Flamestrike]

Okay, so with this SICK match more or less on hold until this gets resolved one way or another, I'm going to make a discussion thread in order to try to force a resolution on this ASAP. The question is, if a charge up move (Solar Beam, Sky Attack, Focus Punch, etc) is encored while charging, is it Encored or is the move used before it Encored? Notable posts/arguments from the Feedback thread:

So dogfish and I decided to test this out on Showdown, obviously Showdown isn't guaranteed to be the same as in-game but at this point in time it's as good as we're gonna get. So, the results of our research:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogondoubles-157552913

-The charge of Focus Punch CANNOT be Encored; using Encore while a Pokemon is charging Focus Punch results in the previous move used being encored. Point: Birkal.
-The charge of Solar Beam CAN be Encored; the Pokemon completes Solar Beam as normal on the following turn and then can only order Solar Beam the round after. Point: Frosty.

Because of the way charge-up moves work in ASB I would go with Focus Punch being the better example here since all charge-up moves in ASB charge and attack in the same action, but technically if we want to be as close to in-game as possible then I think the correct answer is to go with the Solar Beam example.

I thought the end result would be the same with focus punch and solarbeam ._.. I suggested Focus Punch because it had enhanced priority and I wanted to see the action locking thinge.

I prefer if this goes to the booth. If both options have in-game precedence, then our choice will be based on other aspects (preferance and how it interacts with how ASB works) and I am not fond of that part being simply mod-enforced (although it can be fiated).

Focus Punch is closer to how solarbeam works here (same action) yeah, but the test estabilishes that the charge of solarbeam is considered an action to be encored. So the move isn't one single action that lasts 2 rounds in-game, but a move that consists of 2 actions. That same line of thought can be applied here, with the difference that both actions would happen on the same...uh...action (oh boy).

Also again, ASB Encore is BROKEN and any way to stop it should be praised, not nerfed IMO. If there is some in-game precedent that supports the metagame-friendly option, then I feel we should go that route.

Either way, I'd love if a decision is reached fast here. I got a tournament to run ._.. If there is no objections/opinions/mods demanding more discussion in like 48h or so I will create a voting thread.

Solar Beam / Skull Bash plays exactly like Focus Punch in ASB. I would agree that Encore is a massively powerful tool, but that's the nature of the move. If you have issues with the move, change its energy / duration / whatever. Why make its mechanics more confusing?

Might have missed some useful arguments, but I think that sums things up decently. In the effort to drum up some speedy discussion before we punt this to a vote I'm going to be liberal with my tags: Dogfish44 ZhengTann Engineer Pikachu Texas Cloverleaf Gerard. I'd like to have the voting thread be put up within 48 hours if at all possible, so let's be quick about this.

 

[tavok]

Solar Beam / Skull Bash were made this way out of balance, right? Or that's what I think.

However, in any other way, we tend to stick to ingame. SO, Solar Beam can be encored into the charge, and Focus Punch can't.

If you want to make it so both are treated the same way, make it like Solar Beam IMO as Focus Punch is the exception, not the rule, and Encore is OP.

 

[ZhengTann]

Err, considering that Focus Punch can be easily disrupted while the other two-turn-in-catridge, one-action-ASB moves can't, I'm in favour of making Focus Punch the exception to the rule that other moves are Encore-able (the whole move, so being Encored into Dig (Evasive) means you'll Dig (Evade) > Dig (Hit) > Dig, okay?)

Unless we make Encored Focus Punch un-disruptable (kinda like Choiced actions cannot be stopped until the round ends). Come to think of it, I like this idea better than the one above :P

Also Flame I got your back, if after 48 hours from OP nobody else moved it then I shall.

 

[Mulan15262]

How about making it so that being Encored into a damaging evasive move will cause you to use the move the way it would be used that round, and then just evasive+attack phaze in one turn all other actions (i.e. Dig(evasive) - stuff here will cause you to be encored into Dig (evasive) - Dig (attack) - Dig (attack), while Dig (attack) will make you do Dig (attack) * 3)? You were a bit vague there, but I agree with you everywhere else, ZhengTann (although I don't care about how it works with Focus Punch).

 

[Flamestrike]

I'm not sure why the discussion is focusing on the damaging evasive moves so heavily; the only way to Encore a damaging evasive move during the evasive stage is to have No Guard. We should be focusing on the moves that are far easier to Encore while they're charging, namely Focus Punch, Solar Beam et al (although I suppose the ruling would extend to damaging evasive moves for the odd case of a No Guard Encore mon).

EDIT: I do find Zt's suggestion of making Focus Punch uninterruptible if Encored interesting, but it might be a bit strong as an Encore counter in that case. Then again one of the major arguments of making the charge part Encorable is to weaken Encore so maybe that's not a huge deal lol.

 

[Tortferngatr]

EDIT: I do find Zt's suggestion of making Focus Punch uninterruptible if Encored interesting, but it might be a bit strong as an Encore counter in that case. Then again one of the major arguments of making the charge part Encorable is to weaken Encore so maybe that's not a huge deal lol.

I now have the most mysterious urge to try exploiting this by Encoring an ally in Double battles...

 

[Gerard]

I think making Encore be able to encore all moves who require one turn of charge-up is the best option. (Full List: Solar Beam, Skull Bash, Sky Attack, Razor Wind, Fly, Dig, Dive, Bounce, Shadow Force, Freeze Shock, Ice Burn, Phantom Force and Geomancy). All those moves are affected by Power Herb and their first action is an encorable turn in-game.

I have to point out though that all these charge up moves are as capable of being stopped as Focus Punch. Remember, all this moves are affected by multi-hit moves and a few others that would cause the pokemon to lose focus. So while I like to stay true to in-game and leave Focus Punch out, it's still makes sense to keep them all in.

 

[Engineer Pikachu]

Given the slight difference between Focus Punch and charge-up attacks in the cartridge, I agree that Focus Punch should be the exception. Using Encore on Focus Punch should force the target to revert to its previous attack, while using Encore on any charge-up attack (if the first phase has been initiated, obviously) should Encore into that charge-up attack. I'm not too worried about DE attacks – how are you going to Encore something in the invulnerable stage?

This is also somewhat consistent with trying to use Encore on post-combo cooldown iirc (or maybe I'm just really sleep-deprived and it's not relevant at all idk)

 

[Mulan15262]

Yeah, Machamp's evolutionary line is the only one that can Encore a pokemon in the evasive stage of a damagign evasive moves (barring when the pokemon with No Guard or the signature effect of Full Incense is using the move).

Also, iirc, combos can't be encored, and encore will fail if the last action performed by the target is a combo (or a command or encored move).

 

[Frosty]

24h before Booth.

Slate:

A) The First Stage of a Charge-Up move can be Encored
B) The First Stage of a Charge-Up move can NOT be Encored

IF A wins:

A) Focus Punch should follow the standard rule
B) Focus Punch should be the exception, with its first stage not being considered a completed action as far as encore goes