The CAP Dark Horse Competition -- September Thread

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HeaLnDeaL

Let's Keep Fighting
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Approved by jas

We are done with this month's Dark Horse Tournament. To see the final bracket, click <here>. Feel free to reply if you want to discuss how the Dark Horses performed!

The CAP Dark Horse Competition

Art by Fluze3

Objective: To identify which unexplored Pokémon in the CAP metagame are lacking usage for good reason and which have the potential to actually be Dark Horses in ladder/tournament play.

Overview/Rules: There are multiple stages of play within the CAP Dark Horse Competition, and points will be rewarded to individuals who are successful at each stage. The point status will be gathered and listed in this thread, so feel free to test your metal and aim to grab one of the top spots on our leader board! Of course, the main goal here is to have fun and explore some new things in the CAP meta!

The first stage of play will be done at a daily level, in which potential Pokemon "candidates" to become our Dark Horses for the month will be declared each day for the first two weeks of every month. Each candidate will be a Pokemon that doesn't see a ton of use in the meta (Read: Currently has a ranking of C+ or lower, or most preferably no ranking at all--view the list here). Once the day's Pokemon candidate is declared, participants and users have 24 hours to make a team using the day's chosen Pokemon. If a user is able to win 3 qualifying ladder matches using the day's Pokemon plus 1 additional match against a room voice or higher ranked individual (this one doesn't have to be a ladder match), then he/she is allowed to post his/her replays to this thread. After being reviewed, if the replays stand up, the user will gain 1 point to be added to their point standings. Anyone is allowed to participate, but you cannot earn more than 1 point per day. Furthermore, in order for your matches to qualify, there are some additional rules:

-You must use the day's listed Dark Horse candidate on your team in all 3 of your ladder victories, and in your battle against a user of room authority. You may change teams and moves, but the usage of the day's Pokemon is required in all 4 matches submitted.
-You must submit replays to this thread as proof for all 4 matches.
-You must, at some point in the battle, use the Dark Horse candidate out on the field.
-Instant rage quits, or questionable time outs, will NOT count as legitimate matches and will not qualify. However, stuff like a turn 15 rage quit after you knocked out 3 of the opponent's Pokemon probably will count, as long as the day's Dark Horse candidate was able to have some screen time.

Each day for the first 14 days of the month there will be a new candidate Pokemon to test out on your teams, so be sure to check the thread for updates.

After the first 14 days are up, participants and CAP forum goers are allowed to vote on which of the 14 mons will likely have the strongest impact upon the CAP meta. Votes shall be cast using a strawpoll link as to prevent the thread from being clogged up. Voting will last for 3 days, and voters are encouraged to review replays to gather information on how well the candidates did. The 3 or 4 Dark Horse Candidates with the most votes will become the Dark Horses for the month, and will be featured in the month's tournament.

Starting on the 17th of every month after the voting is concluded, sign ups for the Dark Horse Tournament will be in open. To sign up, reply to the thread with the bolded phrase "I want to sign up for the Dark Horse Tournament" and then PM (inbox) the team you will be using to HeaLnDeaL. Teams can be modified only until Sept 19th at 8PM Eastern Time, at which point the current inboxed version of the team you have submitted will be copied and shared between the replay reviewers to assist in their reviews. If it is found that your team deviated during tournament play from the one you submitted, then you will be disqualified. Everyone entering must have at least one of this month’s voted Dark Horses on their team in order to participate.

Sign ups will end on the night of the 19th or the morning of the 20th. Afterwards, a bracket will promptly be posted. Each round will last only 48 hours, so if you're a participant be sure to contact your current opponent right away to schedule a time to have your battle. Whether you win or lose, both participants in each match are expected to reply to the thread to declare the result. Additionally, each user is to PM HeaLnDeaL a link to the replay of the match in the off chance of a dispute (and to verify that your team has not changed).

The winner of the Monthly Dark Horse Tournament will receive 10 points to be added to their point total, whereas the runner-up will receive 6 points and 3rd and 4th place both will receive 2 points.

Overall Schedule for the Dark Horse Monthly Competition:

1st through 14th: Daily Battles, in which a new Dark Horse Candidate will be declared every day. Participants have 24 hours once the day's candidate is decalred to gain 5 eligible ladder victories using the candidate Pokemon and to post their replays to this thread.

15th through 17th: Voting will be open for the Dark Horse candidates, with votes cast on the external straw poll link provided. Voters are encouraged to review replays and vote for the Pokemon that they believe will have the biggest impact/greatest chance to succeed in the CAP meta.

18th/19th: Sign Ups for the tournament open. Be sure to reply to the thread and to PM your team to the tournament manager.

20th/21st: First Round of the tournament.

21st/22nd: Second Round of the tournament.

23rd/24th: Third Round of the tournament.

Etc, until all rounds are completed and a victor is named. If there is still time left at the end of the month once the tournament is over, we will spend some time analyzing the Dark Horses at a critical level.


This Thread: Within this thread, users are allowed post replays for daily candidate battles if they are trying to show proof of their 5 victories. Additionally, people are allowed to comment on battles found in the battle log, and to in general have conversations about how successful the candidate Pokémon/Dark Horses actually are within the CAP metagame. Furthermore, suggestions for mandatory Pokémon at the daily level are allowed as long as you back up your post with solid reasoning. Please, do not suggest any Pokémon that have a viability ranking of B- or higher in the Viability Thread, as these Pokémon have already been fairly explored/exposed to the metagame; suggesting Pokémon that do not have a viability rank for the CAP meta is preferred. Suggestions will be taken into consideration, but not all suggestions will automatically filter through.

However, this thread is not the place to cast votes for any monthly Dark Horse polls, as otherwise the things would become too cluttered. Instead, use the provided strawpoll link at the top of this post to cast votes when voting becomes available.

Additionally, at the end of a tournament, users are encouraged to assess and analyze how well the Dark Horses performed, and there will be a rough "conclusion" of sorts that will try to offer insight in to how viable the Dark Horses were, which flaws hindered them in the tournament play, and which traits helped them succeed in turn.
 
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HeaLnDeaL

Let's Keep Fighting
is an Artistis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
Leader Board

viperfang4 - 10 Points (Tournament Winner)
Animus Majulous - 6 Points (Tournament Runner Up)
jas61292 - 5 Points (Tournament Semi Finalist - 3 points from Daily Battles, 2 From Tourney)
NumberCruncher - 5 Points
HeaLnDeaL - 5 points (Ineligible for tournament play since he will be reviewing teams/battles)
JigglykongisFUM16 - 2 Points (Tournament Semi Finalist)
swampmist1142 - 2 Points
BlueFrog - 1 Point


No replays posted














Round 1

Number Cruncher vs Blank (Auto Advance)
JigglykongisFUM16 vs swampmist1142http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-165419944
QueenofLuvdiscs vs sparktrainhttp://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-165277055
Animus Majulous versus KhosroTheGreathttp://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-165551899
jas61292 vs KingRioluhttp://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-165588989
hendrix96 vs NitrousAcid http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-165622039
gday versus Ununhexiumhttp://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-165645589
viperfang4 vs HyperBeamingEeveehttp://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-165294018

Round 2
NumberCruncher vs JigglykongisFUM16 http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-165893642
QueenofLuvdiscs vs Animus Majulous http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-165817553
jas61292 versus NitrousAcidhttp://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-166353476
gday vs viperfang4 http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-166580994

Round 3
JigglykongisFUM16 vs Animus Majulous http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-166851921
jas61292 vs viperfang4 http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-167590731

Finals
Animus Majulous vs viperfang4 http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-168308926
 
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HeaLnDeaL

Let's Keep Fighting
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So, there's a lot to go over, and I fully intend to start the competition's daily matches on September 1st. This has been posted a few days in advance to gather awareness of the competition, and to allow some discussion of Pokemon that would make could daily 'mons during the daily match stage.

Additionally, I am making an open request for a couple volunteers to help me out with reviewing the replays for daily matches. I'd prefer volunteers to be voiced or higher in the CAP PS room, though some exceptions might be made. Basically the job of such volunteers would be to share the workload of reviewing the replays and making sure the matches qualify, as outlined in the rules above, and making a simple post to this thread of the results of your review. Volunteers themselves are allowed to participate in the daily matches, but they can't review their own replays. If you wish to apply as a volunteer, please PM me.

Overall, you can think of this competition as one both between players to show their battling skills and ingenuity and of the individual Pokemon being tested themselves. Ultimately, only the best 3 or 4 of the 14 mons being tested each month with move on to become the chosen Dark Horses in the tournament play. In a way, it's as if the chosen Pokemon themselves will be fighting for a spot in the tournament.

So, with that, I guess discussion is open. Feel free to ask any questions if something is unclear to you.
 

Tadasuke

Tuh-dah-skay
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First of all, a link to the viability ranking thread in the original post would be nice. I was also wondering if we would be having the Dark Horse battle hosts from a while ago (Myself, HeaLnDeaL, gday, and PepsiPlunge) review the replays, instead of just one person doing it.
 

HeaLnDeaL

Let's Keep Fighting
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Alright, I added the link to the viability rankings. As far as replay reviewers, I'd prefer people to ask/apply rather than use the outdated host group; there are really no hosts, per say (anymore). Of course, I can start a new Smogon conversation so that all of the new replay reviewers can communicate and get things done in an efficient manner.

And everyone, don't be afraid to start talking about some under explored Pokemon that you would like to have featured in one of the daily battles!
 


WEAVILE

Strengths: Actually, a surprisingly high number. Of the top threats in the format, it OHKO Landorus and Kyurem before they can get a hit edgewise In fact, there are several Pokemon in the tier it can one-shot simply by virtue of Ice Punch and Knock Off. It can take out an Auromoth that thinks it can get a Quiver Dance through, and chunk off most of the health on one that recognizes the threat. It beats Chansey. It's faster than Talonflame and Pinsir, so it gets Ice Shard past Priority. Collossoil has to have incredible predictions to beat it. In addition, a majority of the Pokemon in the tier can't actually switch into it, even on a not-very-effective move. It's also pretty spectacular at revenge killing. I'd even go as far to say that very few monsters in CAP are as good at revenge killing as Weavile is. Not only that, but it can even attempt a sweep if the opponent has rocks on him.

Weaknesses: Let's get probably the most important weakness of this Pokemon in this tier out of the way first. Tomohawk, Cyclohm, and Mega Venusaur all wall this hard. For a fast Ice type, this is an incredibly unappealing aspect of this Pokemon. However, a large number of Physically inclined Pokemon share this shortcoming, and Weavile can kill Cyclohm if it's Banded, so it's mildly forgivable. A fair number of B Rank Water types also have a positive match-up against Weavile, most notably Azumarill and Greninja. Fighting types that aren't Breloom are also a pain. You also need a cleric on the team if you want to beat Thundurus with it.

As an example of Weavile doing his job, here's a replay of Weavile doing what he should hypothetically do in the format. The first did end in a quit, and the opponents didn't have the best team in either case, but it should still illustrate what Weavile could potentially do in the tier.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-157329396, http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-157385646.
 
Weaving is ok, but it's not as good as you say. You can either run sash,life orb, or band. Band is bad, as a pokemon can just come in, take the ineffective move, and start boosting. Life orb is good, and combined with weavile's speed and attack, makes it a great sweeper late game... Except that everybody uses tomohawk. Sash is bad because 99% of the good players can setup rocks. Back to life orb, cyclohm can tank and stall, and after you include leftovers recovery, a defensively bulky cyclohm wins.

That being said. I think it would be a great candidate for a dark horse pokemon. Its unpopular, but IMHO underused in the tier as well. I'm not saying everybody should use it, but giving it exposure might spark some interest in some players to use him.
 

HeaLnDeaL

Let's Keep Fighting
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Weavile is an interesting case. He's blessed with offensive ice typing, but is cursed with having low BP STAB. However, I think his most redeeming factor that might merit his inclusion in the this competition is his speed. Once that's factored in, it's possible for him to beat the very popular Landorus, and that's definitely a good thing. For being considered a good dark type in previous generations, however, it is also interesting that he hasn't gained momentum in the meta with his boosted knock off. While it still doesn't have really high BP, the utility is amazing.

All in all, Weavile may have some shortcomings as a physical sweeper/wall breaker, but I think he does have traits to make him a good contender here. Great nomination, NumberCruncher.

Don't feel afraid to suggest more things (this goes for everyone :D)!

EDIT: Changed the number of ladder wins in the daily stage needed per day/per mon down from 5 to 3 (in order to gain a point).
 
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A Pokemon I think that can be good in the CAP Meta, if used properly is Staraptor

Notable Advantages:-
+ Gets an OHKO on Tomohawk with Scarf Adamant or Band Jolly sets, and a 2hKO through reflect.
+ Amazingly high attack
+ The speed makes it outspeed Landorus, Gardevoir and Kyurem-Black, three OverUsed Pokemon in the meta
+ U-Turn makes it not get perma-trapped by Gothitelle
+ Amazing coverage in form of Close Combat, that can help KO Colossoil

Notable Flaws:-
- Weak to SR
- Cyclohm exists
- Cawmodore's high bulk makes KO'ing it easily a problem
- Krilowatt cant be touched by Staraptor

Staraptor can make huge progress to any team by KO'ing Tomohawk, Colossoil, Megacham and other powerful pokemon in the meta. Staraptor can also be used as a stallbreaker as it takes out Mega-Venusaur and other stally Pokemon. That's why I think staraptor should get a chance to be used sometimes
 
A Pokemon I think that can be good in the CAP Meta, if used properly is Staraptor

Notable Advantages:-
+ Gets an OHKO on Tomohawk with Scarf Adamant or Band Jolly sets, and a 2hKO through reflect.
+ Amazingly high attack
+ The speed makes it outspeed Landorus, Gardevoir and Kyurem-Black, three OverUsed Pokemon in the meta
+ U-Turn makes it not get perma-trapped by Gothitelle
+ Amazing coverage in form of Close Combat, that can help KO Colossoil

Notable Flaws:-
- Weak to SR
- Cyclohm exists
- Cawmodore's high bulk makes KO'ing it easily a problem
- Krilowatt cant be touched by Staraptor

Staraptor can make huge progress to any team by KO'ing Tomohawk, Colossoil, Megacham and other powerful pokemon in the meta. Staraptor can also be used as a stallbreaker as it takes out Mega-Venusaur and other stally Pokemon. That's why I think staraptor should get a chance to be used sometimes
I can actually attest to this. The team that I first laddered up to 10th on the leaderboard with had a Staraptor on it. It was a traditional Flyspam team utilizing Colossoil as a check against Cyclohm.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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Okay guys, today's the first day of the month, and thus our daily matches now begin. Please, start testing out our first candidate, Entei.

Entei has good bulk, good offensive presence, and passable speed. However, in XY he was blessed with Sacred Fire, which has helped carve out his niche in higher tiers. If you want to help show what Entei is made of, today is your day to ladder with him for the DHC. If you can get 3 good replays against opponents ranked 1200+ in which you utilize Entei in the match, feel free to post them to this thread and become eligible for a point on the leaderboard.

As far as Weavile and Staraptor go, they will most likely be featured later on this week.
 
So here are the 3 videos of Entei Dark Horse usage you asked for.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-159061281
This game (fair warning) ended in a quit. In essence, the key to this battle was making a few sacrifices to get Charizard off the field so Entei could finish the sweep. I got a bit greedy near the end switching Entei into an obvious trap, but thanksfully it didn't cost me the game
Lessons Learnt:
Chansey can wall if Sacred Fire doesn't burn it, which is handy to know.
Adamant Choice Band Entei is hard to switch into.
The key to victory with Entei is neutralizing dangerous threats.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-159063132
So here's an interesting example of Entei forcing sacrifices. Here, he needed Thundurus to come in on Entei, but because he hits like a truck, that required somebody else to take a hit so that he could use Thunder Wave. He also takes hits a lot better than you would expect. The opponent ended up losing Gardevoir and Breloom to it, and couldn't bring in Tomohawk for most of the game. One more quick thing to note is that the opponent choicing into Extreme Speed means he would have been able to handle Mega-Pinsir if given the opportunity.
Lessons Learnt:
Entei sponges hits surprisingly well, especially given that it wasn't invested in bulk.
Being able to chunk 75% off of Tomohawk with a physical move that wasn't even super effective is pretty legit.
Knowing how to switch Entei in and out of battles can help wrack up kills.
Know your limits when it comes to speed. You can't race Cawmodore.
Don't feel like you need to complete a sweep with Entei. His best use is getting gradual damage across in large increments.
Clerics are your friend. You want Entei to come in and out of fights freely so having a way to heal off Stealth Rock damage is best.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-159067280
This is another one that ended in a quit. This one I actually shook things up for. On this one, I went with a Jolly set instead of an Adamant set. The results I got were mixed on this one. On the one hand, beating the other Entei and killing it in one shot was pretty nice, but not being able to OHKO Gothitelle or Skarmory is not. In the end, Entei killed enough people that Hyper Voice Choice Scarf Gardevoir could finish the job.
Lessons Learnt:
While Jolly does have some perks on Entei, Adamant gives it the edge it needs to OHKO.
Having the right backup monsters to continue the fight after Entei falls is paramount if you want Entei to be good.

EDIT: I just realized that the second battle didn't show the opponent's Elo, which is awful,because that's the only match I could get into today that didn't end in a quit. As such, here's number 4, which ended in a quit.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-159096112
Now on this one, Entei's Extreme Speed really got a chance to shine. It was able to force out Talonflame and if the duel had continued, it would have allowed Entei to bypass the Sticky Web adorning both sides of the field.
Lessons Learnt:
Extreme Speed can end games incredibly quickly. (No pun intended)
The ability to get rid of hazards is pretty important if you want to get Entei through the game. Remember your Defogger/Rapid Spinner.
 
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jas61292

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Ok, I'll be honest, I played pretty damn badly today. But even so, I have to say that I am really underwhelmed by Entei. While it is by no means terrible, every team I tried with it felt like it would be better without it. And even when I did win, the part that Entei played, while valuable, could have been done just as easily by someone better, imo.

Honestly, none of the battles are the most amazing, but I've had enough for today, and these are the best ones I had.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-159057669
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-159051419
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-159113091
 

Tadasuke

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Ok, I'll be honest, I played pretty damn badly today. But even so, I have to say that I am really underwhelmed by Entei. While it is by no means terrible, every team I tried with it felt like it would be better without it. And even when I did win, the part that Entei played, while valuable, could have been done just as easily by someone better, imo.

Honestly, none of the battles are the most amazing, but I've had enough for today, and these are the best ones I had.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-159057669
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-159051419
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-159113091
Entei's problem is that it's checked not only by just the trinity, but also a good portion of the top used Pokes. Landorus absolutely obliterates it, Stratagem outspeeds and does a hell of a lot, and the mega Zards resist its main attacking move. There's also the lovely possibility of Sacred Fire missing.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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Alright, today's DH candidate is something that actually has a great history in OU, but hasn't had as much of an impact in 6th gen CAP. Terrakion currently doesn't even have a viability ranking in our meta. It does actually see some occasional use in CAP, but usually on the lower end of the ladder or on no-CAP teams that wander through. Overall, Terrakion has a much more accomplished history than Entei, but perhaps his cousin Keldeo has taken away much of his spotlight (Keldeo can actually switch into Colossoil Earthquakes and has mixed offensive coverage).

Of course, Terrakion is still the same mon that he is in OU, just in a different environment. Does he suffer from too many typing disadvantages from top CAP threats, or does he have the tools to actually merit his own usage? Well, feel free to test him on a few teams today and see what you think. If you post 3 eligible ladder victories/replays, you'll earn a point on our leader board as well.

(Leaderboard should be up late tonight, and the Entei matches reviewed by then).
 

Tadasuke

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Alright, I'll be nominating Mega Heracross. With a whopping 185 base Atk, 80/115/105 bulk, and Skill Link, this monster can punish people who believe that sashes and substitutes are enough to save them. Access to Swords Dance turns this into such a Physical beast that it makes Kyurem-B feel like a weakling and Tomohawk wet its pants.
 
So since the day is winding down, I think I'll give my summary of Dark Horse Candidate 2, Terrakion. Terrakion is a fast beater that is simultaneously too slow and too weak to actually dent anything in the format. When you're Choice Banded into Earthquake and you still can't force Cyclohm out, something is terribly amiss. His defensive stats don't let him switch in on high rank Pokemon like Stratagem, Charizard Y, or Kyurem-B.

I think the most devestating thing about him, though, is that he's trying to use Fighting moves offensively in a format where very few Pokemon are weak to Fighting, but some that are (like Stratagem for example) beat him anyway unless he's Scarfed, in which case the hundreds of Pokemon resistant or quad resistant can come in on you. He doesn't hit hard without a Choice Band, and he doesn't hit quick enough without a Choice Scarf. There's nothing in your movepool that will let you take down Tomohawk, and you struggle against all the Bulky Grass mons in the format. You can't even really switch it into Colossoil, because if he Knocks Off your item and goes into Tomohawk to Haze the Defiant Boost, you suddenly can't do anything about anybody.

I would post replays, but I couldn't win a single game with Terrakion dragging me down, and if I put up all my failures, we'd have a list 15 long, and I don't think anybody wants to see video after video of Terrakion losing to everything under the sun.
 
I'll be submitting Mandibuzz. This thing is a massive physical tank and has access to Defog and Knock Off, both very solid moves. Mandibuzz is also immune to Psychic type moves which are very strong in the tier. It can also stop the common Landorus set of Earth Power/ Psychic/ Knock Off/ Superpower very well. I'm interested to see how Mandi will go in CAP.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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Alright, today's mon is Staraptor. This thing seems to have had spent more time in BL than any other tier, and isn't particularly common in CAP. However, Flying type is fairly useful in the tier, as the titan Tomo doesn't want to stay in and some smaller but still notable CAPs such as Necturna don't like the match up either.

By now, you guys know the drill. Post three qualifying ladder wins/replays and earn yourself a point. As a note, just so people know, you ARE allowed to battle with an alt as long as it is obvious that the alt is you.

I'm also opening up a discussion point. Currently your opponent has to have a ranking of 1200 to count as a legitimate battle. However, I'm considering lowering this to 1150 or a similar number. This is mainly because after 9 PM eastern time the ladder slows down a lot and it is harder to find opponents. So, allowing alts and lowering the opponent's rank requirements would hopefully allow more people the time/ability to participate. Your thoughts?
 
I'm also opening up a discussion point. Currently your opponent has to have a ranking of 1200 to count as a legitimate battle. However, I'm considering lowering this to 1150 or a similar number. This is mainly because after 9 PM eastern time the ladder slows down a lot and it is harder to find opponents. So, allowing alts and lowering the opponent's rank requirements would hopefully allow more people the time/ability to participate. Your thoughts?
While sliding the ranking requirements around a bit could be a good way to get a larger match pool, I think there's also something to be said for simply lengthening the window of usage for each 'mon. I don't think the issue is lack of quality opponents, but rather just not enough time to work with.

While I get the idea of the tour building up a solid pool of Dark Horses to be used later in the tournament, I think one day is really too short a time period to find a viable niche for a Dark Horse, build a team that supports it, AND get solid ladder matches in (especially considering the CAP ladder is slow at best). Maybe 3-4 days instead, just to give each 'mon a little more time to circulate?
 

Tadasuke

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I second Pepsi's suggestion for having the tournaments last longer than one day. It's entirely possible that the one who suggests a poke could be gone on the one day that it gets it's spotlight. It also can accommodate for days in which the ladder is either slow or down.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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People positively pounced on Entei and were able to get their matches and offer pretty decent assessments. From what I observed with Terrakion, people either had matches and just didn't win or were looking for matches but no one else really was. Ladder activity is something that is definitely a concern, however.

That said, giving 3 or 4 days per mon seems to be stretching it. Points are meant to be earned, not given out, and I feel like there's no challenge to give people 3 days to get a few wins. There is the other issue of some mons simply being better candidates than others. This is unavoidable. Wasting three days on a failed candidate doesn't seem too appealing. The problem is we don't necessarily know which candidate will be a failure until we give them some testing time. Maybe a day is too short, or maybe the ladder requirements are too much. There also seemed to be some confusion yesterday about your opponent having to use the daily mon as well. So, just to clarify, only you are required to use the day's mon if you want to submit replays for points; your opponent doesn't necessarily have to use the day's Pokemon as well. This means you can go through and just have a ladder match with almost anyone, and you don't need to coordinate and have two people with the mon actively searching for matches.

Anyway, if we deem it absolutely necessary, we can perhaps up each candidate's time up to 2 days. However, I really think testing out more mons in a shorter amount of time is the best way to go if we want the end of the month tournament to have solid Dark Horses featured. Sure, we might get some days in which some candidates are pretty awful, but I don't think this would change even if we increased the time each mon is being tested. The greater number of mons we test, the stronger pool of voted Dark Horses we will have for the tournament.

So, I guess right now my main concern is that the DHC is structured to allow 3 or 4 mons a reasonable chance to shine in the tournament. Having a few mons here or there not gather a ton of support in the candidate/daily stage isn't super important in the long run. Of course, if we can see that some mons just flat out are not having enough time to be tested, then that becomes a concern. However, after talking with people, it seems that with Terrakion the main issue wasn't that there was a lack of time, and more of that he just didn't perform up to expectations. I myself found this surprising as I thought Terrakion would have made a notable impact... However, that's why we're testing in the first place--it allows us to confirm or alter our perceptions of what we think a under used/underutilized mon on the meta can do.

Alright, so I suppose this subject is far from closed, but for the time being I'd like to hold off and increasing time limits. Instead, I'm going to do 2 things:
1. The required Elo of your opponent in your ladder match/replay is now lowered to 1150. This makes it easier for people to find matches, as there probably will be a lot of alts floating about anyway.
2. I will post when a Pokemon candidate will have it's "testing day" one day in advance. I don't want to form out a super in-advance schedule, as it would detract from the current mon's testing time. To be in align with this, I am now announcing that tomorrow's mon will be Weavile.

So, I suppose those are the changes I will be making now. If we're still having some concerns a few days from now, then more changes might be made as well.

Overall, I have to thank you guys for your suggestions and your valuable input. I don't want to jump to conclusions too fast. This discussion is not closed in the slightest, and I have to thank everyone who's participated so far :D
 
Alright, so a little backstory on me. The first team I ever laddered with was a flyspam team packing Staraptor. Staraptor is a pretty frail mon, but it has a ton of things going for it. Firstly, Intimidate is an insane ability to have in this metagame. It hoses rogue strategies that you might not have thought about in team construction, it has Close Combat for coverage (Though as I said last time, that's not necessarily the best thing in the world). It has a surprising amount of Attack given that it evolves from something you probably caught on the first route of the game. It actually deals a fair chunk to Tomohawk, and Close Combat can work once Cyclohm has been weakened thoroughly enough.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-159690107
So on this team, I was using Staraptor with Defog. This is actually a neat trick, since Flyspam usually doesn't carry Defog on the fliers themselves. This was a relatively easy win. He didn't pack an answer to flyspam, so he lost.
Lessons Learnt:
Given how many exclusive answers to flyspam this format has, there's really no excuse to be carrying one.
Defog is good against Rocks unless you underestimate the damage Staraptor takes from a Life Orbed Brave Bird.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-159866910
On of a few cases where Close Combat was relevant to the team. Here, Staraptor's Close Combat got the damage through I needed to beat Heatran, which a problem for many of the Flyspam mons. In fact, not only did this carry Heatran as an answer, it had Thundurus as well, along with Haze Tomohawk to keep me from setting up. The key is knowing how your pieces interact and how to get them where they need to be.
Lessons Learnt:
As an archetype, Flyspam can actually effectively deal with a range of threats.
Close Combat is a pretty decent move when you don't already have EQ to deal with everything Close Combat can deal with.
Do or do not, there is no luck.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-159871211
So this one is straightforward and another example of Close Combat threatening a kill. This is a game against an incredibly stacked team. Syclant is nearly always guaranteed at least one kill against flyspam. Stratagem is incredible at killing fliers with its speed, STAB, and movepool. Cawmodore is a surprisingly robust threat against the core members of the team that aren't Talonflame, and even that can't switch in a good portion of the time. The key here is how you back up the team. Much of this fight was built on the backs of the Sylveon, Colossoil, and Cyclohm until Staraptor could finish things.
Lessons Learnt:
Having good partners is essential to making the Flyspam arcetype work out.
Make sure to pack plenty of answers to threats you know will threaten you.
Long gone are the days in which typing "gl" into the chat will garner a "u2" in response.
 

HeaLnDeaL

Let's Keep Fighting
is an Artistis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
Alright, after talking with a few people in the showdown room, it seems like the problem is that some people don't have time to play until night time (referring to night time in Eastern time, since most of our players are somewhere in the continental US) and that the ladder isn't particularly active at this time. I myself tried to ladder last night, and the only 1150+ player I found was jas. Pepsi Plunge seemed to have a similar problem. Sadly, it seems that certain times of the day are not ladder-able. Now, I actually think this competition has slightly risen the laddering of our usual players, and increased laddering on the tier is very much a good thing. Because of that, I'm reluctant to remove a laddering component from the DHC. I'm also reluctant to extend the number of days each mon is being tested, as after talking to Pepsi, it seems he'd still have his same problem of only being able to player during periods when the ladder is inactive, regardless of how many days he has to find the matches.

So, with that said, I have a few proposals:

1) Require 3 ladder victories/replays, but remove the Elo restrictions.
+ Allows people to find qualifying ladder matches much more easily
+ Promotes activity on the ladder
- Might hinder the competitive aspect of the DHC, and we might just get replays of someone beating poor players

2) Require 3 ladder victories/replays, remove the Elo restrictions, AND require a 4th replay/victory against a room voice or higher that doesn't necessarily have to be a ladder match.
+ Allows people to find ladder matches more easily
+ Promotes activity on the ladder
+ Still promotes competition, as voices on higher in the room and pretty much all decent CAP battlers or better
- Room authority might not always be on, or able to play matches


Personally, I'm leaning towards option two, as it has a better balance between competitive merit and allowing people the opportunity to find ladder matches. That said, there might be a better solution, so feel free to post your opinions or offer a different solution. Also, thanks to everyone for being patient and cooperative through all of this; having to change rules in the middle of a competition is by no means a good thing, but with your help I think we can help make sure the DHC will move more smoothly over the coming days.
 
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