CAP Viability Ranking Thread (B Rank Filtering)

[sparktrain]

Mooga Mawile B+ to A

Mawile is an excellent mon vs. Hyper Offense and Stall teams alike. It can bust through common defensive cores with ease, and SD/Sub sets can clean up hyper offensive teams. The support it requires is minimal (cleric support is optimal to pass wishes and remove possible burns). If Mawile gets a Sub up, it basically has a free chance to nuke something with its effective 259 base attack. It has options to get past its would-be defensive checks (Focus Punch, Fire Fang, Iron Head). It does have more offensive checks in the CAP meta (Mollux, Volkraken, Colossoil), but basically anything that isn't a bulky Fire-type isn't entirely safe switching into Mawile since it can set up sub and/or blast them with one of its possible coverage options.

In short, while it has its fair share of offensive checks, it's a nuke, it's threatening to several playstyles, and it requires minimal support. Easy A rank.

 

[Tadasuke]

**UPDATE**​

Added graphic to the top of the post
Mawile (Mega) to A
Raikou added to C
Sableye added to C
Umbreon added to C

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Remove Aegislash, it was just banned by OU

 

[Tadasuke]

Remove Aegislash, it was just banned by OU

Done. RIP in pieces Aegiglash

 

[heartofgold]

With Aegislash now banished, I think Ferrothorn is going to see a bit of a bump in usage. While it doesn't have the phenomenal attack strength of Aegis to back it up, it's still a damn good wall, and one of the best Fairy counters around, particularly stopping M-Garde, who gives other all-purpose Fairy counters (Heatran, M-Venu) trouble. Gyro Ball, in particular, hits like a truck off its terrible speed, and it provides a ton of utility too - Hazards and Leech Seed being its best options. Ferro also generally does well in CAP, flying under the radar and catching a number of teams off guard. Which SpD investment, it's a great stop to Krill, a solid check to Colossoil, and an answer to Stratagem that (foolishly) choose not to run Fire coverage. It's currently in a nice spot at A-, so I'm not nominating it for a bump up right at this moment (the existence of both M-Zards really keep it from being the defensive force it was last Gen), but keep an eye on Ferrothorn.

 

[Tadasuke]

With Aegislash now banished, I think Ferrothorn is going to see a bit of a bump in usage. While it doesn't have the phenomenal attack strength of Aegis to back it up, it's still a damn good wall, and one of the best Fairy counters around, particularly stopping M-Garde, who gives other all-purpose Fairy counters (Heatran, M-Venu) trouble. Gyro Ball, in particular, hits like a truck off its terrible speed, and it provides a ton of utility too - Hazards and Leech Seed being its best options. Ferro also generally does well in CAP, flying under the radar and catching a number of teams off guard. Which SpD investment, it's a great stop to Krill, a solid check to Colossoil, and an answer to Stratagem that (foolishly) choose not to run Fire coverage. It's currently in a nice spot at A-, so I'm not nominating it for a bump up right at this moment (the existence of both M-Zards really keep it from being the defensive force it was last Gen), but keep an eye on Ferrothorn.

I feel like Heatran completely outclasses Ferrothorn as a wall, but Ferro definitely has a lot more offensive capability. I'll be watching this closely.

 

[heartofgold]

Responding to Tadasuke post 10 days later!

While I can see the advantages Heatran presents as a wall, I think Ferrothorn's typing is considerably better than Heatran's in CAP. Yes, Heatran can switch in on Fairies with much more impunity, and yes, hard walling Mollux is very nice, but it's wrecked by Krillowat, and frankly it doesn't handle Syclant or even Tomo all that well either. In the end, I think it's a matter of team needs though, and after playing with Ferro quite a bit, I feel like A- remains about right. It's not a replacement for Aegislash by any means (which shouldn't come as a surprise - Aegis was broken after all), but it's a solid 'mon that can REALLY annoy certain teams.

On the subject of NEW business, I'd throw Greninja up to B+, maybe even A- tier. It's an incredibly solid Special Sweeper, able to deal loads of damage, and abuse Protean via its ample movepool. I've been rocking an Expert Belt set, and it's been doing great thus far - Scald and Ice Beam provide most of the damage, with Extrasensory being a great option for Mollux who think they can grab a safe switch - it actually OHKOs Offensive versions with Rocks up, and can 2HKO defensive sets (again, with Rocks). U-turn, however, might be the MVP. It's excellent for trapping and eliminating Special Walls, and for generally preserving momentum. Of particular note is Greninja's Speed - CAP, in general, is a bit slower than OU, and as such Greninja tends to blow by stuff, notably the God-Killer Landorus.

Admittedly, it faces stiff competition in its niche from Stratagem, who's both faster and stronger (useful for a Fast Special Sweeper, huh?) but in my experience, Greninja's access to Water and Ice moves proves more useful than Stratagem's access to Rock and Fire. Additionally, if you manipulate your typing properly, you can ditch the crippling weakness to priority that, in my experience, makes Stratagem extremely hard to use (seriously, Bullet Punch, Drain Punch, Aqua Jet....it's a problem). And thanks to Protean, the difference in firepower tends to even out in the long run. Definitely give the frog a shot.

 

[Amitghosh]

I think Krillowatt should be moved to A Rank. Krillowatt is one of the best capmons, it has magic guard, life orb, and mixed stat distribution. It can also take out these capmons with ease:-

• Tomohawk
• Cyclohm
• Colossoil
• Mollux
• Necturna
• Malaconda

And many other capmons with its vast coverage moves, So, I really think Krillo should be moved up

 

[Animus Majulous]

Krillowatt to A???? Krillowatt is simply a special attacker that outspeeds lando. But it can do nothing to special walls. Like, nothing. Except switch out, that it can do. I I wanted a special attacker in this meta, I would use stratagem, and even then, strata is only A- I think. There's no reason krillowatt should be anywhere close strata, as strata can set rocks, abuse technician, and beat all the pokes you listed there except necturna and malaconda. And how can krillowatt kill malaconda and necturna. You have to be playing the worst player in the game for them to let you kill those two pokes.

You have much better special attackers i.e landorus who has the best coverage in the cap meta, aurumoth who can be sneaky and sweep, and stratagem who can be really versatile.

The highest krillowatt could be is a solid b. Maybe you could argue for a bump up from b-, but even then...

 

[Amitghosh]

Krillowatt to A???? Krillowatt is simply a special attacker that outspeeds lando. But it can do nothing to special walls. Like, nothing. Except switch out, that it can do. I I wanted a special attacker in this meta, I would use stratagem, and even then, strata is only A- I think. There's no reason krillowatt should be anywhere close strata, as strata can set rocks, abuse technician, and beat all the pokes you listed there except necturna and malaconda. And how can krillowatt kill malaconda and necturna. You have to be playing the worst player in the game for them to let you kill those two pokes.

You have much better special attackers i.e landorus who has the best coverage in the cap meta, aurumoth who can be sneaky and sweep, and stratagem who can be really versatile.

The highest krillowatt could be is a solid b. Maybe you could argue for a bump up from b-, but even then...

Krillowatt can also be a physical attacker too. But if not A, I would suggest at least B+ or A- because B is still a little low for it

 

[Tadasuke]

heartofgold, I'll be moving Greninja to B+, it seemed like that was the general consensus in the chat, as it does beat the holy trinity (Tomohawk, Colossoil, Cyclohm), while also packing a punch and going at at least Mach 2.

HyperBeamingEevee, absolutely not. Virtually everything in B+ and up puts Krilowatt to shame. It hits with such weak attacks that even Colossoil can tank two Surfs and hit back with an Earthquake. It is completely outclassed as a special attacker by most other things in the tier, and it's outclassed as a bulky Water-type by Arghonaut.

I'll be updating the thread once in a bit, I'm just hoping to get a few more suggestions in.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Galvantula C- --> D

Honestly Galvantula is outclassed by Smeargle, who imo is itself outclassed by Necturna. So by transitive property, Galvantula is also outclassed by Necturna. Smeargle can put up more hazards than Galvantula can and put opponen ts to sleep while Necturna has a better offensive presence and doesn't need focus sash to take nearly as many hits. Honestly, it has lost most of its niches here, really the only thing I can see that it has going for it is Compoundeyes Thunder

 

[Tadasuke]

So, as of right now, the update would stand as:

Greninja to B+
Galvantula to D

Let's try to get a decision reached on Krilowatt before I update this.

 

[Animus Majulous]

You run hp flying on LO or expert belt stratagem, and its an easy 2hko on tomohawk. Most tomohawk do not run aura sphere, and if they do, then they are normally not defensively bulky which does not make them a threat. If people really want to bump it up, then make it B but no higher.

 

[Tadasuke]

**UPDATE**​

Greninja to B+
Krilowatt to B
Galvantula to D

I'd also like to submit Quagsire and Alomomola for C+ / B-. Quagsire has proven itself to be incredibly useful in CAP's Hyper Stallfense teams, fulfilling roles that Arghonaut would be unable to do itself. Alomomola has seen a recent buff in usage after HeaLnDeaL's Bulky Offense Wish Support archetype of team was popularized. Lastly, I'd like to ask if people would want to have the CAP C&C Analyses linked to the names of the Pokémon in the list, as well as the OU Analyses of Game Freak Pokémon, as to give beginners a better start towards using the correct sets for everything they see on the list.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the CAP metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the CAP metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.

Alomomola is a really weird case. It really can only do one thing well, and that's Wish Passing against physical threats. It fails at dealing damage, and if it wants any sort of affect on the battle outside of wish passing, it has to rely of Knock Off, Scald hax, or toxic (and quite frankly there are Pokemon that do all 3 better, it's just that few others can do them and Wish as well). Really, Alomomola is "only capable of doing [its] specific task and fail at doing anything more than that," which matches with the D Rank description. However, the one thing Alomomola does, it does quite well, and it happens to patner with higher ranked mons very well, such as Chansey. In the end, I think Alomomola is only viable on a few select team archetypes and won't perform well without the proper synergy. Overall, I think the description for C Rank almost fits Alomomola to a T, and I would not be in support of giving her a higher ranking at this time.

As a sidenote, I get most of my kicks out of the CAP metagame by trying to use under-explored Pokemon on teams. First it was Doublade, then Magmar, then Fidgit, then Alomomola, etc. It's part of the reason why I'm trying to organize the CAP Dark Horse Competition (coming soon hopefully!). But just because obscure Pokemon I use receive a brief spike in popularity, it doesn't justify them being moved to a higher rank. That said, I'm sure there are some under-explored mons out there that can really influence the meta. It's just that I don't think Alomomola is one of those, or at least not yet. People still don't go into teambuilder and think to themselves "Hmm, how am I going to counter Alomomola this time..."

On a different note, I think linking the mons in the viability listings to their analyses would be a great idea, Tadasuke C:

 

[MQJinx]

Nominating Zapdos for B- Rank. This thing is nice at checking flyspam since it cannot get OHKOed without prior damage from their strongest attacks like Mega Pinsir's +2 Return, +6 Cawmodore's Acrobatics, and CB Talonflame's Flare Blitz, while it can easily KO in return with Heat Wave, or Thunderbolt (Discharge can work but it fails to KO Mega Pinsir without prior damage). It also shrugs off paralysis that sets it apart from something like Skarmory, and it can Roost unlike Rotom-W. It also has Defog which is always helpful for removing annoying hazards off your side, and Heat Wave puts pressure on Bisharp. It can also run a specially defensive set to handle the common Landorus. It should run defensive sets since Thundurus is more suited for offensive sets.

 

[Tadasuke]

**UPDATE**​

Mawile removed from list
Links to analyses added

We need to make analyses for Necturna, Mollux, Syclant, Krilowatt, Pyroak, and Voodoom. If C&C'ers want to get on that, it would be greatly appreciated. Tomohawk also needs a formal analysis.

Quagsire and Alomomola still need further testing. MQJinx, I have no experience with using Zapdos, but if others want to give their input, I can modify the list accordingly.

 

[heartofgold]

Firstly, I don't know if it's new or I'm just noticing it now, but brightobject that is some sweet CAP Viability Art. And props to Tadasuke for maintaining an extremely orderly main post.

As for Zapdos, I honestly think even B- might be a little high; I'd consider C rank. It definitely has a niche in beating Mega-Pinsir effectively while being a solid check to Caw and Talonflame. It's also inarguably got a great typing - Electric/Flying is extremely effective when it comes to walling, resisting not only the aforementioned sweepers, but also hard walling Offensive Tomohawk variants. That said, in my experience, I've found it noticeably inferior to Cyclohm. Stealth Rock weakness is an killer, requiring dedicated Hazard Control to ensure that Zapdos will be at full HP, which it absolutely needs to be in order to functionally wall Cawmodore. On top of that, with full Defensive investment (which you need) Heat Wave is pitifully weak - I don't have the calcs at the moment, but when I ran Defensive-Dos back in the early days of the Cawmodore CAP ladder, I remember it not even OHKOing after a Belly Drum, let alone after Caw's gotten a Drain Punch off to recover its HP. I actually started using it on a Sun team, just to ensure the KO.

EDIT: Disregard, I apparently have no idea what I'm talking about.

Maybe I was running Zapdos back in the day when Bulky Caw was more of a thing, but some relevant Calcs:

68 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 222-262 (92.1 - 108.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+6 252 Atk Skarmory Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 246-289 (64 - 75.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Obviously, the Stealth Rock weakness remains an issue, severely limiting Zapdos' ability to switch-in (any chance to OHKO with Caw is dangerous). That said, Zapdos does much better offensively than I remember. Go figure. And since I've got it plugged in and all...

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 214-252 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 204-241 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Zapdos cleanly OHKOs both with Thunderbolt. What's that say? Well, Zapdos can effectively check all three of the principle Flyspam 'mons. However, it's essentially burned out after one attack - it lacks the full defensive prowess to take multiple hits. And seeing as the whole principle of Flyspam is to overload counters with multiple threats, Zapdos, I'd say, is at best a shaky check. Coupled with Stealth Rock weakness....I'm still going with C rank.

 

[MQJinx]

Another mon to discuss: Entei for C Rank. While this gets checked by common threats such as Landorus, Tomohawk, Cyclohm, and Guts Colossoil, it has one thing that seperates it from Victini: Sacred Fire. Physical Sweepers like Revenankh can't switch in for fear of burn, and it also puts pressure on defensive teams lacking Tomohawk and Cyclohm with a CB set. It can also attack weakened Colossoil with fewer concerns about Sucker Punch than Victini.

EDIT: Come to think of it, I think Terrakion might have a shot at C Rank. While it has a harder time against Colossoil when switching in, and Fairies wipe the floor with it, it can put off some work once those are removed. Nothing aside from bulky fairies and Tomohawk would want to take a Close Combat to the face, especially on a CB set. Scarf is also an option to revenge kill things like Stratagem and Mega Charizard X. Rock and Fighting make pretty wide coverage alone, allowing Terrakion to run moves like Iron Head to surprise fairies, Earthquake for a more reliable way of dealing with Cyclohm and Mollux, Swords Dance with Life Orb for a late-game sweep, Quick Attack for priority, or even Stealth Rock as a sash lead.

Some other quick noms:

Weavile for C+ (revenge killer of Landorus and Kyurem-B, dents Aurumoth, has Knock Off to cripple defensive mons, can revenge kill Pinsir due to Ice Shard, forces Colossoil to play mindgames)

 

[jas61292]

Well, I just noticed that one of my favorite mons is not on here, so I would like to nominate Mew for B rank.

I personally hate stall, so I have gone to great length to find mons that do well against the common defensive cores of the tier. While often times this lead me to things like Mega Medicham, who can simply break things over its knee, more recently I started using stallbreaker Mew, and it is absolutely wonderful. With good speed and bulk, it is not incredibly scared of anything that lacks super effective hits. With Taunt, it completely shuts down Chansey, and easily beats most other wall, like Cyclohm. Most Tomohawk are also beaten, even if you lack a STAB move, since, baring a Taunt of its own, Tomo will only be able to recover when it is not taunted, and eventually it will be forced to struggle to death. Will-O-Wisp and recovery moves let it sit on a ton of physical Pokemon, and serves as residual damage to wear down some faster pesky defensive mons. While against more offensive teams, Mew does not shine quite as brightly, it straight up wins against most A or better rank defensive mons, and can hold its own against many more. While a more offensive mon is often better suited for teams that want a Pokemon like this, its overall usefulness makes me think it is worthy of at least a slot in B rank.

 

[NumberCruncher]

Well, I just noticed that one of my favorite mons is not on here, so I would like to nominate Mew for B rank.

I personally hate stall, so I have gone to great length to find mons that do well against the common defensive cores of the tier. While often times this lead me to things like Mega Medicham, who can simply break things over its knee, more recently I started using stallbreaker Mew, and it is absolutely wonderful. With good speed and bulk, it is not incredibly scared of anything that lacks super effective hits. With Taunt, it completely shuts down Chansey, and easily beats most other wall, like Cyclohm. Most Tomohawk are also beaten, even if you lack a STAB move, since, baring a Taunt of its own, Tomo will only be able to recover when it is not taunted, and eventually it will be forced to struggle to death. Will-O-Wisp and recovery moves let it sit on a ton of physical Pokemon, and serves as residual damage to wear down some faster pesky defensive mons. While against more offensive teams, Mew does not shine quite as brightly, it straight up wins against most A or better rank defensive mons, and can hold its own against many more. While a more offensive mon is often better suited for teams that want a Pokemon like this, its overall usefulness makes me think it is worthy of at least a slot in B rank.

Seems interesting, but why Rank B? Mew looks like pretty much fits the definition of Rank C as close as any Pokemon could. It has notable niches in CAP, but a ton of flaws that keep it from being good. The three moves you mentioned (Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, and random recover move) are all used by Sableye to better effect, and he's also a Rank C mon. Mew's main draw over Sableye is that it's way bulkier and can carry an offensive move that isn't Foul Play, but it comes at a pretty hefty cost. A Dark weakness is already a pretty nasty drawback in CAP, not helped by the fact that you need timid as a nature to beat out other popular Taunters in the format. All in all, I'd say Sableye and Mew are about on par the format, at Rank C.

 

[jas61292]

The difference is all in the bulk. Sableye has no bulk whatsoever. 50/75/65 is no 100/100/100. Even if it is burning things, it still needs to invest in its physical side if it hopes to not die painfully. Due to this, anything with a halfway decent SpA stat breaks it over its knee. Notably, this includes Tomohawk and Cyclohm, two of the most important defensive Pokemon in the tier. Mew, on the other hand can has enough physical bulk naturally to not need any investment whatsoever, and enough special bulk to not fear any defensive Pokemon at all. The key here is to take a look at matchups. 1 on 1, Mew beats just about every A and S rank defensive mon, as well as many of the B rank ones, and a good number of other, non-defensive mons as well.

C rank is for things that have notable niches counterbalanced by notable flaws. Mew has some notable flaws, don't get me wrong, but beating such a huge list of things is far from a niche role. The description of B rank, great in the meta but with some notable flaws, is a perfect description of the function of stallbreaker Mew. If anything B is undervaluing just how good it is. I know the tiers are different, but Mew is currently A rank in the OU viability thread, and honestly, I think the additional things that threaten it (Colossoil) are mostly conterbalanced by its ability to take out guys like Cyclohm, Tomo and Arghonaut, among others.

 

[Animus Majulous]

Imo, the reason mew and sableye should be C rank is that guts colossoil wrecks both of them. A burned colo can ohko both with knock off. I agree that Mew is better than sableye because it is bulkier, and if it carries stab psyshock, can hurt tomo and mega venu, but because of colo's popularity and usage, I can't really see it higher than C+.

 

[jas61292]

The Colo matchup is really not a big concern. Yeah, its common, but its one Pokemon. You don't drop far down in viability due to one specific matchup. Furthermore, Mew actually does surprisingly well against common Colossoil. Only Guts Colo can actually beat Mew and both its abilities are quite common (Rebound that switches into Wisp still gets burned by Synchronize). Yes, guts has more usage, but it is not by a lot. Additionally, again, while Colo is common, is it super easy to check. Mew pairs very well with both Tomo (god of Colo counters) and Mega Heracross (who resists Colo's STABs and can't be Knocked Off).

I'm not saying that Colo doesn't hurt Mew though. What I am saying is that, that logic for rating doesn't hold, as otherwise Colo itself could not be anywhere near A with Tomohawk flying around. A single set of a common Pokemon does not mean anything with respect to the overall viablity of something that is not trying to do anything to said Pokemon, and still can beat the other sets that that Pokemon runs.