These scenarios are not totally accurate. Against an Audino that has scouted his Close Combat, why would Sawk stay in when the opponent has a Spiritomb? The switch to Spiritomb is now extremely predictable and can be taken advantage of by, say, a switch to Slurpuff. Dealing with Sawk is not nearly as easy as you've made it seem.
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- Thread starter Raseri
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unfortuanately, it is as easy at it seems. Stall teams rely on redisidual damage through hazards so you need a wisher and a spinner/defogger to keep playing this scenario. Also PP on CC is limited as is your other moves, whereas the opponents switch has unlimited pp. Everytime you switch you take hazards damage and that means wearing down pokes like sawk is easy, especially when you are tied behind your back as far as not being able to switch up moves. Sawk has the power, but it simply doesnt have enough of it without a choice band or the coverage to hit Spiritomb.
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Sawk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 116-137 (38.1 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Sawk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 119-141 (39.1 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
A stall team has wish support as well, sawk has to switch out by the fear of being will-o-wisped, pain splitted or foul played. Its safe to say, stall teams dont have a HUGE problem in sawk as you make it out to be.
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Sawk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 116-137 (38.1 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Sawk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 119-141 (39.1 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
A stall team has wish support as well, sawk has to switch out by the fear of being will-o-wisped, pain splitted or foul played. Its safe to say, stall teams dont have a HUGE problem in sawk as you make it out to be.
Deej Dy
Verified Ladder Scurb 乁( ◔ ౪◔)ㄏ
Also that first calc is before the item is even knocked off. After one KO it would do more in the neighborhood of 28% (and thats BANDED adamant). Tomb will yawn at this attempt, pain split, or double switch knowing you wont stay in vs it and the player who uses sawk will wonder where they went wrong after the 6-0. The answer is that choice items will get you destroyed by any decent stall player. Even specs ty can be taken by any flash fire or spc def wall that isnt crygonal and isnt forced to take 2 eruptions in a row before retaliating.
One of the most reliable things that I used to break stall has been Double Dance Rhydon. It has a really easy time setting up against stall as it often only needs an SD to rip apart defensive cores. Rock Polish is useful against stuff like Cryogonal and Qwilfish that can outspeed you without a boost and stuff. Hazard support greatly appreciated because it obviously helps in getting KOs against the really sturdy stuff such as Tangela (which some people run to try beat this set).
Runner (Rhydon) @ Eviolite
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Polish
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
Hazards are overall super important against stall as it's obviously much easier to beat if you can get SR+3 layers up. Keeping them up is another story. Offensive Spiritomb can't spinblock defensive Cryogonal effectively and so I've often been forced to sac it in the process and put pressure on Cryo to force it out, which obviously allows it to try to spin later in the match. So yea stall is super good in this meta, but it's mostly because good players use it so that can skew the outlook a little bit.
Runner (Rhydon) @ Eviolite
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Polish
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
Hazards are overall super important against stall as it's obviously much easier to beat if you can get SR+3 layers up. Keeping them up is another story. Offensive Spiritomb can't spinblock defensive Cryogonal effectively and so I've often been forced to sac it in the process and put pressure on Cryo to force it out, which obviously allows it to try to spin later in the match. So yea stall is super good in this meta, but it's mostly because good players use it so that can skew the outlook a little bit.
Deej Dy
Verified Ladder Scurb 乁( ◔ ౪◔)ㄏ
Rhydon isnt a bad stall breaker, but it falls to plume and tomb (foul play/wisp). If they dont have a tomb or fast SE priority (aquajet) though, it is very effective.
To me the most annoying thing I face vs my stall is mixed attackers. The two that give me the most trouble off the top of my head are:
Cacturne
Item: Life Orb
Giga Drain/ seed bomb
Sucker punch
Swords dance/Drain punch
Dark pulse
and
Mesprit
Item: Life orb
Psyshock
Hidden power fire
Dazzling gleam
Calm mind/ Healing wish
Both these hit common walls hard and are hard to prepare for unless you have sucker for mesprit and mach punch for cacturne at the perfect time.
I conclusion, I believe that stall is best solved by mixed attackers (like above), set up mons (nasty plot, SD, etc), and phazers, (poliwrath, throh)
To me the most annoying thing I face vs my stall is mixed attackers. The two that give me the most trouble off the top of my head are:
Cacturne
Item: Life Orb
Giga Drain/ seed bomb
Sucker punch
Swords dance/Drain punch
Dark pulse
and
Mesprit
Item: Life orb
Psyshock
Hidden power fire
Dazzling gleam
Calm mind/ Healing wish
Both these hit common walls hard and are hard to prepare for unless you have sucker for mesprit and mach punch for cacturne at the perfect time.
I conclusion, I believe that stall is best solved by mixed attackers (like above), set up mons (nasty plot, SD, etc), and phazers, (poliwrath, throh)
Stall isn’t won by sticking 1 mon on your team. No well-built team should be beat by 1 mon singlehandedly. If it does do that it’s probably a mistake in teambuilding. Same can be said of any other teams, too. No Balance or HO team will just simply fall apart by 1 single set, either. If your stall team cannot handle a fighter, you'll have problems with Guts Hariyama and Gurdurr by extension. That's not fun for stall to have weaknesses like that.
But stall is most definitely beatable with active play. For instance, you trap Cryogonal with Spiritomb, you become weak to a bunch of special threats. This isn't the only way: you can bait out stuff like Plume or Tangela relatively easily and pave way for a Rhydon / Feraligatr sweep or something. Not everyone will make the most obvious moves on Magmortar and let you get a free switch-in and wear him down. Just having one in your team doesn't automatically beat stall, but having one and outpredicting the enemy will actually let you do some damage. I've seen CM Spiritomb pose immense threat to unprepared teams and I've seen a lot of creative responses against him, but he isn't trivial to beat him unless you have specific responses prepared to make that matchup easier. I've run double SD sweepers on a few teams and they tend to wear down each other's counters pretty well against slow teams. After the initial damage is done, it's much easier to find a way to victory against stall.
You need to actually think when playing against stall, which is why it works so well against ladder randoms who just keep pressing CC on Sawk after switching it into Audino. You don't switch in a Choice Pokemon into something that oft runs protect like Audino. If you have a brain to not bring Choice users into common protect users like Ferro / Audino, Choice mons don't automatically become a burden against stall. Especially Specs users that can 2HKO Audino (which is duable with spikes support) puts a ton of pressure on stall, and trick specs users can really screw over your key walls. You have to think about your actions, in which case you can actually have a strategy to get past them.
Stall is clearly viable. That being said, stall isn't unbeatable, it's just great for laddering because the NU ladder quality is literally shit as usual and they usually won't think, and that's a pretty nice advantage to have.
But stall is most definitely beatable with active play. For instance, you trap Cryogonal with Spiritomb, you become weak to a bunch of special threats. This isn't the only way: you can bait out stuff like Plume or Tangela relatively easily and pave way for a Rhydon / Feraligatr sweep or something. Not everyone will make the most obvious moves on Magmortar and let you get a free switch-in and wear him down. Just having one in your team doesn't automatically beat stall, but having one and outpredicting the enemy will actually let you do some damage. I've seen CM Spiritomb pose immense threat to unprepared teams and I've seen a lot of creative responses against him, but he isn't trivial to beat him unless you have specific responses prepared to make that matchup easier. I've run double SD sweepers on a few teams and they tend to wear down each other's counters pretty well against slow teams. After the initial damage is done, it's much easier to find a way to victory against stall.
You need to actually think when playing against stall, which is why it works so well against ladder randoms who just keep pressing CC on Sawk after switching it into Audino. You don't switch in a Choice Pokemon into something that oft runs protect like Audino. If you have a brain to not bring Choice users into common protect users like Ferro / Audino, Choice mons don't automatically become a burden against stall. Especially Specs users that can 2HKO Audino (which is duable with spikes support) puts a ton of pressure on stall, and trick specs users can really screw over your key walls. You have to think about your actions, in which case you can actually have a strategy to get past them.
Stall is clearly viable. That being said, stall isn't unbeatable, it's just great for laddering because the NU ladder quality is literally shit as usual and they usually won't think, and that's a pretty nice advantage to have.
At least we are not low ubers ladder xD
I think we have one of the best low laddeR s in the meta (but my god they hax). Also, low ranked players don't know how to prepare for threats, they just put any 6 threats together and let the mons do the job for them without any real thought and often vs other low ladder players, it works. Imo, you cannot beat stall without a set solution e.g. some lures to help other sweepers sweep etc, but if you don't prepare for stall with a game plan at least thought about pre-battle, you are doomed from the start
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I've been using double priority Khan lately. And it is soooo powerful. Silk Scarf Double Edge nearly 2HKO's Weezing. I could easily see it being the next suspect test.
I would be.
It's cool, moves fast, gets some kills, but it is by no means a difficult threat to take down.
It's cool, moves fast, gets some kills, but it is by no means a difficult threat to take down.
Khan is pretty viable in NU's current state, but is by no means broken (especially compared to buskenpass/sigilyph).
Besides, your point about weezing is sort of flawed, because:
1. While many of the previous suspects have been banned partially for this, just because {insert relevant defensive mon} can't switch in, doesn't mean "autobroken". Think BW Hydreigon, or many of the Megas (well, except Mega Luke, but what really made him broken was versatility) that have 1-2 switch ins, but many ways to check it.
2. Weezing isn't the ONLY relevant wall (Vileplume, Granbull, and Tomb say hi), which most are down here due to lack of recovery.
VS defensive Spiritomb (do people run Def investment or SpD investment?)
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Spiritomb: 156-184 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Even with Specially Defensive Spiritomb, Tomb is 2HKOed (under 1 layer of spikes or rocks) and proceeds to burn it.
Proof:
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Spiritomb: 195-231 (64.1 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
(Crotomb survives and can stall it out, but why are you even using Crotomb against Kanga (or any normal type in general)
VS Vileplume:
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Vileplume: 171-202 (48.3 - 57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Black Sludge recovery
Same thing as Spiritomb (similar output), although Vileplume can only really Sleep Powder it.
VS Granbull (probably second most relevant after Tomb)
Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Granbull: 123-145 (32 - 37.7%) -- 93.5% chance to 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
(take it with a grain of salt though, Granbull can't really do much against Kanga.
However, you didn't mention what the set even was (Double-Edge/Fake Out/Sucker Punch/filler?), so idk if it actually KOes after Fake Out, and did you use spikes support?
EDIT: I didn't mention Ferroseed, so unless you run fire punch (which I doubt) you're screwed.
EDIT2: it wasn't right to make a TL;DR post just for something like this wasn't it
TL ; DR, Kangaskhan is not broken, especially compared to Buskenpass or Sigilyph, and it barely even fits the bill of "not broken because it has quite a few checks, even with no switch ins"
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What are some Pokemon that left NU and some Pokemon that came to NU?
Pokemon that have left include: Shiftry (most recently), Magneton, Fletchinder, Durant, Doublade, Shuckle, Virizion
Pokemon that have been banned: Sigilyph and Combusken
Pokemon that have dropped to NU recently: Slurpuff, Electivire
(I probably missed some)
I mean the Tier Shift in September.
Hasn't come out yet
We have no idea what has officially has left or joined NU because Antar has not officially announced the tier shifts. However, the Pokemon most likely to drop are Kabutops, Whimsicott, and Hitmonchan (really hoping for Chan to fall). Nothing seems extremely close to moving up, though Gurdurr, Omastar, and Spiritomb might have a shot. Still, nothing has officially dropped or rose yet.
Forgetting claydol anyways regarding khan, it is not broken, even with drain punch double edge wears it down fast and by fast I mean fast. It does hit like an absolute truck and has not a lot of safe switchins but in the end it is not that broken due to having a handful of checks and counters.
Omastar literally probably has 7% usage, so that's pretty much definitely moving up.
yeah, Omastar is almost certainly moving, idk how it became NU (something that wasn't banned back then, like when Virizion mainly dropped because of Tornadus before its quickban), also (obligatory Whimsicott/Kabutops/Shitmonchan/Claydol mention)
In my opinion if Claydol drops it'll be mediocre at best due to the fact that even in RU Sandslash outclasses it. The fact it's set-up fodder for several Pokemon isn't good either. (At least Sandslash has good offensive presence) It also can't do shit to Mismagius, Gourgeist, Golurk or Haunter (Which will be the top spinblockers once Spiritomb leaves (It is getting attention in RU as being a very good pursuit user) unless you run Psyshock (Which only beats Haunter).
Hitmonchan's only niche over the other bulky fighting types in NU is Rapid Spin, and whether that will be a big enough niche or not is beyond me. It also does very poorly against spinblockers. Like Claydol it'll be C-rank material at best really. (I do believe it's slightly better than Claydol only because its typing is less ass, and it actually has a decent Attack stat)
Whimsicott I have doubts on, as Offensive Whimsi has been gaining attention in RU and even UU. If it does drop, it'll be interesting. That is certain.
Kabutops will be good. Unlike Carracosta it doesn't have to use Shell Smash to be a threat in Rain. As a spinner it's decent enough I guess (It wants to have Waterfall/Stone Edge/Rapid Spin/Swords Dance/Knock Off/Aqua Jet on spinner sets but will only have to choose between 4), but the way it'll impact rain teams will be great.
About stuff that will likely leave, I have doubts on Gurrdurr as Zoro is now gone and the main reason people were using Gurrdurr was because it was such a great Zoro check. Like I said, Spiritomb is getting noticed as being a very good Pursuit user in RU. Omastar is guaranteed, as its hazard setting set is great in RU, mainly because it has good offensive presence, physical Bulk, Spikes AND Stealth Rock, as well as a good ability in Weak Armor. People have been using Bullet Seed Abomasnow in RU to counter the bloody thing.
Hitmonchan's only niche over the other bulky fighting types in NU is Rapid Spin, and whether that will be a big enough niche or not is beyond me. It also does very poorly against spinblockers. Like Claydol it'll be C-rank material at best really. (I do believe it's slightly better than Claydol only because its typing is less ass, and it actually has a decent Attack stat)
Whimsicott I have doubts on, as Offensive Whimsi has been gaining attention in RU and even UU. If it does drop, it'll be interesting. That is certain.
Kabutops will be good. Unlike Carracosta it doesn't have to use Shell Smash to be a threat in Rain. As a spinner it's decent enough I guess (It wants to have Waterfall/Stone Edge/Rapid Spin/Swords Dance/Knock Off/Aqua Jet on spinner sets but will only have to choose between 4), but the way it'll impact rain teams will be great.
About stuff that will likely leave, I have doubts on Gurrdurr as Zoro is now gone and the main reason people were using Gurrdurr was because it was such a great Zoro check. Like I said, Spiritomb is getting noticed as being a very good Pursuit user in RU. Omastar is guaranteed, as its hazard setting set is great in RU, mainly because it has good offensive presence, physical Bulk, Spikes AND Stealth Rock, as well as a good ability in Weak Armor. People have been using Bullet Seed Abomasnow in RU to counter the bloody thing.
Hitmonchan is quite good so if it does drop it will most likely be at least B+. It has a variety of things going for it and RU just gives it a bad rap (I've used it in RU with pretty good success soooo). Claydol I can see being quite good on stall teams, it is quite bulky, resists rocks is immune to spikes and webs, it has quite a few things going for it when looking at a rapid spinner. It just isn't as big of an offensive presence as some people would like.
Also I hope omastar doesn't rise, and at the same time I hope it does lol.
Also I hope omastar doesn't rise, and at the same time I hope it does lol.
we lost Omastar and Spiritomb, and we gained Kabutops :)
time for rain!
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smogon-usage-based-tier-update-september-2014.3516635/
time for rain!
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smogon-usage-based-tier-update-september-2014.3516635/
Fucking Christ Hitmonchan, you were almost there!
Also, Spiritomb is gone. If that weren't enough, Kabutops is here as an extra spinner, and of course he's going to fuck over everyone with Rain too.
More on Tomb tho. Losing it is going to have an incredible impact on the tier right now. Here are some examples of mons that would definitely see a rise, either due to not needing to watch out for frequent Pursuit / Sucker Punch mindgames (as often), less competition, or just like having Tomb out of the way:
Also, Spiritomb is gone. If that weren't enough, Kabutops is here as an extra spinner, and of course he's going to fuck over everyone with Rain too.
More on Tomb tho. Losing it is going to have an incredible impact on the tier right now. Here are some examples of mons that would definitely see a rise, either due to not needing to watch out for frequent Pursuit / Sucker Punch mindgames (as often), less competition, or just like having Tomb out of the way:
I likely haven't even scraped the bottom of the barrel yet, but holy shit that is a huge list of Pokes that can breathe easier with Tomb gone.
Oh holy shit, just realized the best hard counter to Malamar just left, this thing is gonna run rampant now. Even if it gets up a +1 it still has really good coverage to take on a number of threats, ofc there are still a few things holding it back but I'm actually a little nervous about this thing now.
I'd probably would also think liepard, golurk and musharna usage will also increase, they all really benefit from the departure. Im really excited for exeggutor to shine with the departure of spiritomb, it already was an underrated threat, but now it does not have to worry about infiltrator dark moves raining on sub seed eggy. Does have to worry about liepard though. Also sub klinklang will be much better as it does not have to worry about will-o. Do not really care about omastar as much, it was a very scary shell smasher, but was fairly weak to priority, and there are tons of lead hazard setters that can step up now like accelgor and crustle.
The addition of Kabutops should really solidify it and cryogonal as the only 2 viable rapid spinners in the tier, as it's much better as both an offensive and defensive spinner than armaldo, and sandslash loses a little more of a niche as being the only spinner to beat spiritomb.
The addition of Kabutops should really solidify it and cryogonal as the only 2 viable rapid spinners in the tier, as it's much better as both an offensive and defensive spinner than armaldo, and sandslash loses a little more of a niche as being the only spinner to beat spiritomb.
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