Official XY Ubers Gengarite Suspect Voting

[PokèManiac Livio]

Absteined. As I already told, Gengarite is really broken even for Uber tier/banlist, but it is not luck based, and requires a minimum amount of skill to be played.

 

[MeteorMiss]

As wary as I am of banning anything from ubers, I would have to say that Mega Gengar is uncompetitive. Shadow Tag removes the player's ability to switch to a check/counter, and this makes it fundamentally different from threats which would simply be considered "broken" or "overcentralizing". The thing about ubers is that some pokemon are overcentralizing (e.g. GeoXern), and every team must carry a check to them (e.g. Arceus-Poison). Gengar, however, can trap many of these checks easily, disposing of them to allow the offensive pokemon to sweep easily. This is fundamentally different from other systems of wearing down checks (such as a Salamence/Rayquaza pair from Gen IV which could gradually overpower a Groudon), because in this case, as soon as the Gengar is on the field with the Arceus-Poison, Arceus is doomed. (It can carry moves like Dark Pulse, but Gengar can use Taunt/Destiny Bond to force a 50/50 at the very least.) On the other hand, in the Gen IV example, the Groudon user did not have to keep taking punishment; he could sac something, then bring in a Scarf Kyogre (for example) to regain momentum. Mega Gengar is uncompetitive because it takes choice away from the players and eliminates counters without the victim having any alternative option.


Ban Gengarite

 

[Vinc608]

Gengarite : Ban

My english is limited so I cannot speak a lot. Anyway, the main problem of Gengarite is Shadow Tag. Switching in Ubers is very important : you only have 1/2 checks or counter against a threat like Extreme Killer, or Kyogre. Megagar can remove your check / counter easily with his 170 BS SpA or with Destiny Bond. The reward/risk is too important, and make Gengarite uncompetitive. It also beats Stall easily, and because of this HO is a very current archetype.

 

[delik]

Gengarite should not be banned, because while it is uncompetitive it is not so uncompetitive it needs to be banned from play. Ubers' current bans, Moody, Swagger and OHKO moves all have one thing in common, which is that they take the game out of both players' hands and into the RNG. Mega Gengar is easy to use, but when used the better player will win most of the time, unlike with Swagger and Moody. Mega Gengar, when used by an inexperienced player does not allow them to win against an experienced player most of the time. Ubers should be a place where any pokemon is able to be played, and banning Gengarite disallows that.

Gengarite: Do not ban

 

[Emperor]

Hide

Alright so here we go

My stance on Mega Gengar's (aka. Gengarite’s) suspect testing has always been a bit shaky. I’ve tried to take my time to read every single post in the Ubers threads about the testing to try to consider both sides of the argument and come to a decision on vote day. One theme that has been acknowledged and agreed with is that we are focusing way too much on specific details on definitions and technicalities and not enough on definite facts. So, let’s consider the facts.

1. Mega Gengar’s Overpowering/Overcentralizing/Unpredictable nature are entirely irrelevant to this argument due to this being an Uber’s suspect test.

Basically, when it comes to my decision, Mega Gengar’s supposed impacts on pokemon usage, pokemon strategies, and what is “good” etc aren’t able to be judged here. As a result, any strategies rendered useless by Mega Gengar are irrelevant to my final decision (though this might seem like an obvious point, I felt it needed to be stated for the sake of keeping the decision making process out in the open.)

2. Mega Gengar’s “uncompetitive” threat is what we are suspecting. The only potentially “uncompetitive” element in Mega Gengar’s arsenal is its use of Shadow Tag.

Now, when it comes to my decisions of figuring out when something is competitive or isn’t competitive, I’m thinking in contexts the Ubers metagame. The Ubers metagame was built under this principle:

“The "Ubers metagame" exists to develop an understanding of Pokémon's strongest and most brutal combatants.”

Instead of the Ou Metagame which exists under this philosophy

“The Ou metagame is the result of a search for a balanced game, where player skill, teambuilding skill, and a certain amount of luck combine to execute victory”

From here http://www.smogon.com/philosophy

So, by that difference in metagame philosophy, we can’t even consider the possibility of banning Mega Gengar. If we want to develop an understanding of all pokemon in this tier then we have to play in an environment that includes all of them.

To restate, I’m well aware that it has been discussed that pokemon should be banned from Ubers if they are proven uncompetitive. I, personally, disagree since I’d rather the meta be established under principles of understanding and acceptance instead of balancing.

So, vote No Ban

Now, for the sake of addressing some of what I saw coming up in some discussions, I’m going to address some keys points made in the thread. Most namely:

1. Mega Gengar’s use of Shadow Tag is Uncompetitive because it emphasizes team matchup more than skill: Emphasis is not a problem. Removal is the problem (see #4.) You’re focusing too much about Mega Gengar’s effects on the tier and not on what it’s actually doing.

2. Mega Gengar’s use of Shadow Tag is Uncompetitive because there are no counters to it, it can easily poke holes in the opposing team, etc: Fact #1

3. Mega Gengar’s use of Shadow Tag is Uncompetitive because it causes stupid 50/50s (aka, overly aggressive, blind doubling): Fact #1. In addition, these 50/50s are not guaranteed by any means (though they are common) and I think that this focuses a bit too much on the effects of Mega Gengar/Shadow Tag and not the actions of Mega Gengar/Shadow Tag.

4. Mega Gengar’s use of Shadow Tag is Uncompetitive because it prevents a player from switching during 1v1s and removes all of the value of a player’s actions during that moment: I personally think that this is the only valid complaint that I should address.

I am well aware of Mega Gengar’s ability removes skill in 1v1s. However, I will always judge in terms of the 6v6 in this context and, in all of my times getting reqs, there was no instance where Mega Gengar was able to prevent player skill, teambuilding skills, and luck from combining for the duration of the entire match (which is what the requirements would be if we tried to partially establish the rules for the Ou Meta.) I realize that there are people who feel that the 1v1 skill removal holds much more weight. Heck, I think those people might even have a point where, in the impending Shadow Tag Suspect Test, I might even consider change voting sides. However, under this vote, I want to set the precedent that under no circumstances should a pokemon be banned in Ubers. Ever. So, we’ll have to wait till a later voting period before we come to that, final decision (which, in the end, will ban Mega Gengar in a roundabout way >_>)

tldr Vote No Ban

Reason

1. Standing Point: The goal of the Ubers metagame is to develop an understanding of Pokemon’s strongest and brutal combatants. Banning Mega Gengar would go against the original principle of the Ubers metagame.

 

[Cherub Agent]

do not ban

reposting from the np thread

Alright so I've now nearly got reqs on the suspect ladder, but am now taking a break because it's becoming quite boring. I've played about 45 games now using Edgar's sample team with a couple of variations, and have obviously not had huge issues with Gengar at all (except for when it leads against Scolipede, but that's pretty easy to predict). Arceus-Ghost can't be trapped, ResTalk Kyogre doesn't give a damn, it can't kill Landorus before Landorus kills it or U-Turns out on a predicted Destiny Bond, Skymin outspeeds and flinches, and while it can Destiny Bond Mawile, this has not yet happened. The most annoying aspect of Mega Gengar to this team is that it absorbs Toxic Spikes lol. I'll be constructing my view on the matter in three points: personal experience, my stance on Ubers banning things, and the theory behind Shadow Tag.

Anyway, I very much doubt that I'll be bringing anything new to the discussion that hasn't probably already been said, but speaking from personal experience (just on the ladder, I have never attempted Ubers at a higher level of play) I find it to be an excellent Pokemon that one must watch out for, but honestly to no greater extent than the other big Uber titans. The fact that Shadow Tag isn't instantaneous but requires a turn to obtain has played a large role in my opinion of this, as it's not hard to double switch into a favourable matchup and gain momentum against the opponent. Granted I have been using a team that is relatively unphased by Mega Gengar, but I've seen replays of teams with a worse matchup and still prevail through smart play. And honestly, why WOULD you use a team weak to Mega Gengar at the moment? Concerns of "blabla makes X unviable" don't really concern me when regarding Ubers (less so in different tiers), because this IS the realm of broken Pokemon. It's nice that beforehand all of these behemoths seemed to nicely balance eachother out, but I see Ubers as the place where I can choose to use anything, where I'm free to use extremely powerful Pokemon that make it easier for me to win. You simply adapt, and don't use the things that are weak to the strongest threat in the metagame. If you desperately need a Pokemon that is helpless against Mega Gengar, you run Shed Shell on it (most of them have reliable recovery anyway).

My personal stance on things being banned from Ubers is that the strategy/item/Pokemon/whatever needs to be extremely overpowered, have almost no opportunity cost in selecting that thing over something else, or be entirely luck based. Mega Gengar doesn't really fit into any of these categories for me, as plenty of teams are completely viable despite not using Mega Gengar, many teams don't crumble to Mega Gengar alone (yes I'm aware that people want it banned under a supportive characteristic, not an offensive one, which is the case with most things that Smogon suspects nowadays) but just because Mega Gengar can remove a counter to one of its teammates doesn't mean that it will.

I, like many other people, believe that the main problem lies in the concept of Shadow Tag itself. Not allowing your opponent to switch out means that if your Pokemon has an advantage over the trapped one, your opponent cannot even attempt to outplay you. Once you're trapped, that's it, and your opponent has 100% of the advantage and can do whatever the hell he wants. I'd be more comfortable seeing this "claused" than seeing Gengarite banned. Yes I'm aware that it's just semantics, but if I'm honest I don't particularly care. Take from my opinion what you will, I have far less experience than top Ubers players, and know that my opinion may be biased because I don't avidly concern myself with the tier, and only have my own experience to base my eventual decision off, but I wanted to participate in this Suspect test because as said in the OP, it's pretty much the biggest one in Ubers history and because i can now get TC alumn

 

[steelskitty]

Gengar is broken, but it is not toxic to the state of the ubers metagame to the point of being accurately described with buzzwords such as "uncompetetive". It doesn't create the same luck-based, unfavorable conditions for the opposition that previous bans such as Swagger and OHKO moves have caused. It does not take "skill" out of the opposition's hands as they attempt to deal with it, since it is left in a vulnerable state before its mega evolution where a check may be switched in. It does not make any playstyles inherently unviable simply because they need to devote measures to handle it; innovative and successful stall, balance, and offense exists with Gengar in the metagame. These are the main reasons I will be voting No ban.

 

[doublenikesocks]

Gengarite: No Ban
I am voting no ban because I found the pro ban arguments flimsy and unsupported. One of the pro ban arguments is that Mega Gengar creates 50/50s which are unhealthy for the game. 50/50s go both ways which is why that argument is weak. Coinflips like this are a central part of the game of Pokemon. Crits, Thunder paras, Focus Blast missing... all can be game changing. Should we ban these? Another bad argument is that Gengarite restricts team building. Is this an OU test? No. Pokemon like Xerneas, Ekiller, and Kyogre are all powerful as shit and have a limited number of checks that most teams need to have. They restrict teambuilding, if anything, more than Gengarite. And they aren't getting tested. Seeing as the playerbase is nearly 50/50 split on this issue (from what I've seen in the thread) so Shadow Tag will get a test. I actaully think Shadow Tag as an ability is unhealthy for the metagame because it takes decision out of the player's hands and into the opponent although a noob can't just use Shadow Tag and win the game. One actually needs to know how to play with Shadow Tag to make it successful. That includes Goth, Gengar, and Wobb.

Anecdotal but during my time on the ladder I not once felt like Mega Gengar took the game out of my hands. When one of my Pokemon was trapped and eliminated I felt that I was outplayed. I also used a sticky web team than ran Mega Gengar to trap and kill Waterceus/Grassceus so specsogre could spam water attacks. While I am not the best player, and my opponents were generally shitty, Mega Gengar was little more than a powerful spammer. It mainly just took out sweepers with destiny bond.

 

[Sweep]

Ban Gengarite

In a tier with so many threats -- like Kyogre and Xerneas -- with limited number of viable checks, most teams can only afford to carry one true answer to them. For example, checks to Xerneas include Mega Scizor, Mega Lucario, specially defensive Clefable, Ho-Oh if SR is not up, Lugia if SR is not up, Heatran, Ferrothorn (both lose to Focus Blast), etc. As most of these Pokemon lack priority and Gengar commonly carries HP Fire to destroy Scizor, Mega Gengar can remove these threats and make sweeping with your win condition that much easier. Though Mega Gengar does need a turn to mega evolve, once it does evolve it can pick and choose whatever it wants to remove with the combination of its great Speed, okay power, and access to both Taunt and Destiny Bond. The fact that Mega Gengar is easily revenged by scarf users, Mega Mewtwo Y, Shadow Sneak, etc. is irrelevant as once it picks out want it wants to remove, it has accomplished its job. Examples of how destructive Mega Gengar is can be seen in SPL, when two of the most successful SPL players (aim and MM2) successfully used Gengar to remove a check to their main sweeper, giving their win condition a FAR easier time to sweep than it would have without the the aid of Mega Gengar. Overall, Gengarite amplifies already ridiculous sweepers to arguably unmanageable extents due to its ability, and the tier would be healthier with it gone.

 

[Delta 2777]

Gengarite: DO NOT BAN

Because the reason for Gengarite being suspected is its ability [Shadow Tag], I may periodically use them interchangeably (why on earth are you suspecting them seperately???).

Gengarite is not uncompetetive. Neither is Shadow Tag. Both take strategy to use effectively and add variety to the game. First, [Mega] Gengar: it takes a full turn to mega evolve (and before that crucial turn, it has only its decent [by Ubers standards] base speed of 110) before it can trap anything, which seriously hinders its effectiveness. For example, it can't revenge kill 252 Spe Arceus unless it has already Mega Evolved, nor Darkrai, Shaymin-S, or several other noteworthy threats. Next, Mega Gengar's effectiveness as a trapper is seriously overrated. If Gengar manages to Mega Evolve and then switch out for later in the match, there are only a few noteworthy things that it can trap effectively given that they are at a reasonable amount of health: Xerneas (pre-Geomancy), Arceus-Grass, Arceus-Fairy, Shaymin-S, Chansey, Sylveon (rare), and maybe Lugia. Granted, Gengar is an amazing revenge killer for a host of other things there are already weakened, such as other offensive Arceus forms, Darkrai, Rayquaza, and more depending on how weakened they are; however, I feel the same way about Dugtrio in Adv, who was also not uncompetetive, but rather added another element of strategy and teambuilding preparation into its respective metagame. Furthermore, Mega Gengar's ability to turn certain Arceus sets into a liability can be a great asset to the Ubers metagame in my opinion, due to the fact that Arceus itself is vastly overpowered. Mega Gengar's best capability is eliminating nearly any slower threat with Destiny Bond, but even then that requires correct prediction on a multitude of levels (MEvolving beforehand, getting in on the Pokemon at the correct time, deciding between Taunt and Destiny Bond), and even then requires the sacrifice of Mega Gengar. Using Mega Gengar as a means to secure a sweep with another Pokemon is just as competitive of a strategy as any other as well, since once again it requires correct prediction and sacrifices the utility of two other Pokemon which could benefit the team through other means (eg: using MGar + Xerneas means you may have to sacrifice a defogger/hazard setter/scarfer/check to a threat/etc). To top it all off we've never had a problem with this shit before with Wobb/Goth even in OU and I fail to see why Ubers players love their stall/support Arceus so much that they're trying to ban it from a tier that historically does not ban Pokemon.

 

[8-BIT Luster]

do not ban
Admittedly, while Mega Gengar is a potent Pokemon, sporting 170 base Special Attack and 130 Speed, as well as excellent moves for its role in Destiny Bond and Taunt, it is not uncompetitive. While Shadow Tag does remove player choice (to an extent,) it's hardly enough to requisite banning it. Running mega Gengar effectively requires some amount of prediction, unlike other things such as Swagger and Moody. Because of the hit-or-miss style of Destiny Bond trapping, a misplay on the user's part will most likely result in the user losing a Pokemon while the opponent escapes scot-free. While Mega Gengar is different from, say Xerneas, in the fact that it's harder to check something that removes the ability to switch, there are still ways around it. While simply outspeeding it with things such as Mega Mewtwo Y isn't a valid excuse as to why Mega Gengar isn't broken, things like Pursuit that in a way remove Mega Gengar's ability to switch work, and are one of the best ways to beat it. For this reason Mega Gengar has begun running Hidden Power Fire. But imo real players use Spiritomb
In addition, Mega Gengar actually keeps the metagame in check, in a way. With it gone, Adamant LO ExtremeKiller Arceus would run rampant through the tier, as it no longer has to worry about being outsped and DBonded by a regular Gengar as it megas. In addition, Mega gengar has more to it than just "trap and kill." it's a very effective method of preventing Hazard control with its Ghost typing and fast Taunt.
Although I believe this is a relatively weak argument, stuff like MMY does outspeed Mega Gengar under normal circumstances and OHKO with Psystrike. outspeeding it is generally an effective way to shut it down.

What makes this so different from other suspects is that we're really suspecting Shadow tag, and not Gengar/Mega Gengar. This makes it slightly harder to come up with resaons specific to Mega Gengar itself, and not Shadow Tag.

All in all, while Mega Gengar is certainly a massive threat to the current metagame, I don't think it warrants a ban.

...I think I missed something.

 

[Worthlessnoob]

Do Not Ban

I want to vote in order to keep Mega-Gengar/Gengarite in Ubers because I do not believe it is uncompetitive enough to warrant a ban. Even though pro-ban supporters have claimed that it's ability, Shadow Tag, is uncompetitive because it forces 50-50s, this isn't a unique trait of Shadow Tag. Shadow Tag often forces double switches, but double switches are 50-50s in general. Sucker Punch also forces 50-50s and though I do not think Sucker Punch is skill based, Shadow Tag and M-Gengar don't seem to be so much more uncompetitive than other luck-based aspects like Sucker Punch or Paralysis to the point where it needs to be removed. Another reason people support the Gengarite ban is because it removes the choice of switching when it is in play. However, that is only a reason that shows it is broken and not that it is uncompetitive. Shadow Tag does not cause coin flips or anything luck-based when it is active. Unlike Moody or Swagger, it will not cause you to lose because of something you have no input in. Prediction in order to avoid being trapped is glorified guesswork, but so is any other prediction. If you get trapped, it does remove the choice of switching for as long as Gengar stays in, but it doesn't take away all of your control. Gengar's ability to trap and remove does indeed handicap you, often turning the tides of a match, but that is similar to many Uber mons like Kyogre which handicaps you through its sheer wallbreaking power. Mega Gengar is centralizing, but not uncompetitive. Also, even though Gengar makes team matchup very important, Ubers has always and will likely continue to be that way because everything in the tier is broken. Overall, I understand why someone may say Gengarite or Shadow Tag is uncompetitive, but I don't believe it to be very much different from Paralysis or critical hits. You may need a little luck to use or beat it, but it hardly discourages skill more than something like spamming Choice Specs Water Spout. Therefore, I believe that Gengarite should not be banned.

 

[alwayswimmin]

Gengarite: Ban

Hide

Shadow Tag is uncompetitive because switching, possibly the most important mechanic in Pokemon singles. By negating switching, users of Shadow Tag can choose which of the opponent's Pokemon to take out, exacerbating issues of team matchup. This has serious implications on the game.

Shadow Tag has a detrimental effect on defensive cores. The choice of a defensive Pokemon to take out an offensive Pokemon now comes with a huge risk - a Shadow Tag user coming in on a revenge kill. The threat of a Shadow Tag user revenge killing or even doubling on the predicted switch essentially renders defensive / bulky-offensive Pokemon not packing Shed Shell or phazing into liabilities. Arceus formes can't risk Shadow Tag coming in on a Defog. Other defensive Pokemon also can't stay in very long, if at all, which, when combined with the pressure Shadow Tag puts on hazard control, can result in a failure to complete their jobs.

Note that Shadow Tag can still be counterplayed to some extent via held item or modified move slots. However, opting to use an item slot or a move slot often undermines the Pokemon's original job. Furthermore, as MM2 pointed out, sleep can also be counterplayed via held item or move slot, but that did not prevent Sleep Clause from being implemented.

The ability of Shadow Tag to remove threats is not reciprocal. When both teams are carrying Shadow Tag, the winner is not the person who makes smarter plays but rather the aggressive player who succeeds in trapping the opponent's cornerstone (which is matchup reliant) first.

Thus Shadow Tag is uncompetitive because it undermines smart weighing of risk/reward in favor of mindless, oftentimes aggressive play.

Some anti-ban members, shrang primarily, have argued that the same can be said for Specs/Band Pokemon. I find that the aggressive play associated with these Pokemon are only deciding factors in games towards the end of an even game (like a 2v2 where Pokemon on both sides are weakened). This is a symptom of the inability for Pokemon games to draw, when I am content with "mindgames" to decide games. Risk/reward analysis prevents these situations from arising early in the game, as there is almost always a safe, middle-of-the-road switch-in to pivot early on. The same can't be said for Shadow Tag. You obviously can't pivot safely out of it, and Shadow Tag certainly has the ability to force aggressive play early in the game.

Other anti-ban people point out that banning Pokemon is against the philosophy of Ubers. I honestly believed that too, and thus was hesitant to ban Gengarite (if we are to believe Mega Gengar is a separate Pokemon, which is controversial), but I now find banning something from Ubers not too hard to digest. If something comes about like Gen 1 Mewtwo where whoever sets up with this particular Pokemon first wins, I wouldn't hesitate to vote to ban it. Upon closer inspection, the kind of play such a Pokemon encourages is not unlike the kind of play involved in setting up Gothitelle - coming in on a helpless Pokemon.

Nonetheless, however, to ban something from Ubers, it must be more than simply broken. I think Shadow Tag, and by extension, Gengarite, has been shown to be this.

 

[SnoopysWorld]

Gengarite: Ban

What I'm about to say may seem a bit cliché, but it's the honest truth; mega Gengar is just outright broken. Its ability, Shadow Tag, combined with its accelerated base 130 Spe and horrifying base 170 SpA gained upon mega evolving is what influences my decision on being pro-ban when it comes to discussing the Gengarite's fate. Mega Gengar's outstanding ability, speed, and special attack give it the ability to do one thing, which is to completely exterminate and dismantle anything that's in front of it, unless it's hit by a powerful super-effective priority attack by its target and can successfully OHKO mega Gengar with it. Because of Shadow Tag, there is simply no way of countering or checking mega Gengar. The only way to deal with Mega Gengar in an efficient way is to already have a choice scarfed user that can OHKO it already facing off with mega Gengar, which will probably never happen if you're playing against a decent player since they will predict a little before just carelessly sending in their Gengar. Another way to deal with it is to bring a choice scarfed 'mon in on regular Gengar before it mega-evolves, but this will most likely never work as well because Gengar can just go for the Destiny Bond on the switch, causing both Gengar and the scarfed user it's up against to faint, as well as probably costing you a win condition. Because of this, Mega Gengar is uncompetitive, cheap, broken as already stated, and needs to be gone from the Ubers tier in order to have a competitive, well-balanced tier once again. What I just said is ironic because Ubers is supposed to be just that and contains one thing that makes it unique to the other tiers; the behemoths of all pokemon roaming free in a tier where everything goes, where you're most likely to run into chaos and hax and is therefore deemed "cancerous" by many members who regularly play or have played in the tier, including myself. Don't get me wrong though, common choice scarf users such as both Landorus forms, Kyogre, Groudon, Terrakion, Latios, Garchomp, and Ho-oh all have access to moves that can OHKO Mega Gengar and can wipe it out without having to worry, but you must play correctly in order to do so. Provided are damage calcs to show that these pokémon can indeed deal with mega Gengar effectively:

252+ Atk Ho-Oh Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 288-340 (109.9 - 129.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Kyogre Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar in Rain: 282-333 (107.6 - 127%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Groudon Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 480-566 (183.2 - 216%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 368-434 (140.4 - 165.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 306-362 (116.7 - 138.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 392-464 (149.6 - 177%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 426-504 (162.5 - 192.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Latios Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 318-374 (121.3 - 142.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 262-310 (100 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

On the other hand, if you switch your scarfed 'mon into regular Gengar, there's a chance it can kill you upon mega evolving and you always have the chance to win the match up if you have the bulk needed to survive hits, but it will always dent these important pokémon and may make winning the game difficult for you. Provided are a few examples of mega Gengar vs choice scarf users:

252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Groudon: 175-207 (51.1 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 142-168 (41.5 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (makes you unable to rely on Water Spout for the rest of the game)
252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 348-410 (107.7 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 174-205 (53.8 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:]

 

[Laurel]

Ban

I have chosen to ban Gengarite for a variety of reasons. First and foremost, it eliminates the most important part of pokemon, switching, and completely capitalizes on it. While pokemon like Dugtrio, Magnezone, and Gothitelle (lets save this for another day), eliminate switching, Mega Gengar is far more versatile, and easily removes a pokemon a game usually two. Secondly, it seriously limits team building, in that most stall builds need to make sure they are not trapped by Mega Gengar, which leads to garbage like Shed Shell Blissey, and makes Chansey pretty bad. Thirdly, it easily kills pokemon and sets up sweeps, making users very uncompetitive. It kills Tyranitar and Klefki for Yveltal, Klefki for Xerneas, Arceus-Grass for Kyogre, the list goes on and on. Not only that, but it can sometimes get a kill then Destiny Bond, and kill another pokemon. I understand Ubers has generally been a metagame without bans, but there is no reason to keep Mega Gengar. I see no positives behind keeping it in Ubers. I think removing it will not only increase the skill needed to play the tier, and open up more creative options team building, particularly with stall.

 

[smlj]

Having read through the many posts made by both sides regarding the ban of Mega Gengar (and also Shadow Tag in general), I would like to put forth an argument for NOT BANNING Mega Gengar.

Firstly, it has been brought up countless times about how the odds of Mega Gengar trapping its target to set up a sweep for its team mate, are skewed in its favour. The player using Mega Gengar would simply need to switch it in while the opponent has to make careful plays to take care of the target that Mega Gengar is trying to trap. However, the whole point of Pokemon battles is about trying to outwit your opponent. Whether it be by making double switches or playing aggressively, a player should do whatever it takes to ensure that his/her Pokemon isn't trapped by Mega Gengar. It is similar to life, if you face a highly complex or even insurmountable obstacle in your life, do you make do with what you have and try to overcome your problem or would you simply end your life because you are 'left with no other choices'? Rather than simply whining about how you can't do much because you have little to no options, why not make do with what you have and give a good fight? For all you know, there may be a path that leads you to victory. While your choices may indeed be limited given the superb blend of speed and power of Mega Gengar, its user also has to predict how the opponent would move. Should it go for Destiny Bond or Taunt? A wrong prediction would often end up with a dead Gengar while the opponent escapes unscathed or with little damage. Thus, while the opponent needs to predict carefully the many possibilities that may happen against Mega Gengar, the user also needs to get the prediction right.

It is undeniable that the Mega Gengar user only needs to get it right once while the opponent needs to be correct throughout the match. However, even if a misprediction is made, it does not signal the end of the world. Therefore the player needs to play more aggressively with greater prediction either to ensure that the loss of a core member of the team is minimised or to reduce the odds of Mega Gengar successfully rooting out a core member of the team. The prediction and switching is similar to switching in Gliscor for Klefki on Arceus-Ground predicting an earthquake but getting floored by an Ice Beam and losing the match as a result. Or having a Quagsire take on a Ekiller but getting smashed by a Grass Knot instead. The similarities are that all these involv mind games, predicting the moves by the opponent and being proactive to force your opponent on the defensive while mixing things up to ensure that the opponent cannot guess your next step.

In addition, it is a near staple on Stall teams (which Mega Gengar shines against) to have Pursuit users to check the many Ghost and Psychic types that roam the Ubers tier, since Stall teams tend to have less offensive pressure that would restrict Mega Gengar's performance. Although it is true that Mega Gengar has many options in its expansive movepool for the many Pursuit users such as HP Fire for Scizor (Mega) and Focus Blast for Ttar, it is important to note that Mega Gengar suffers from horrible 4MSS. It usually carry a combination of Taunt, Destiny Bond, Sub, Perish Song and Protect in its move pool, leaving it with 2 attacks of slots most of the time. This means that there are many moves that it has to give up on, from Focus Blast to Sludge Wave and HP Fire. Each of these moves missing greatly reduces the targets it can trap or leaves it vulnerable to a potential Pursuit. The poor bulk of Mega Gengar further exacerbates this issue, as it is easily removed by the different Pursuit trappers whether or not it is switched out. In short, even though Mega Gengar is a great Pokemon, it is not invincible and may not always perform its job successfully.

In conclusion, while Mega Gengar has many qualities that makes it an outstanding offensive Pokemon in the Ubers Tier, it has several shortcomings that it has yet to scale and thus, I strongly believe that it is not at the level of uncompetitiveness that we need to take the extraordinary step of banning it from Ubers.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Gengarite: Do not ban

Mega Gengar is extremely dangerous in this metagame and one of the most centralizing, if not the most centralizing, Pokemon in the tier. However, there are multiple reasons why I don't think Mega Gengar deserves the axe. First of all, Gengar needs to mega-evolve to acquire Shadow Tag, which is what would make Mega Gengar uncompetitive on paper, whereas other Shadow Tag Pokemon such as Wobbuffet and Gothitelle trap the opponent as soon as they switch in. Due to its frailiness, it relies heavily on prediction and double switches to succesfully do its job, and that's only after Gengar mega-evolves, which also takes a turn. Sure, Mega Gengar can run Protect or Substitute to somewhat compensate for this, but many times it can't afford to run one of these moves on its set, since it usually runs Destiny Bond, Shadow Ball and Taunt. Without Focus Blast, it wouldn't be able to hit Arceus-Normal, Mega Kangaskhan, Darkrai, Dialga, Ferrothorn, Heatran and Tyranitar too hard, and having only Shadow Ball as its attacking move leaves it completely walled by Mega Kangaskhan, Tyranitar, Yveltal, Normal Arceus and even Xerneas in some cases, which can play around Destiny Bond as this move has only 8 PP. However, what truly keeps Gengarite from being uncompetitive in my book is that Mega Gengar does take skill to use. Unlike Swagger and OHKO moves, which completely remove the skill aspect of the Ubers metagame and replace it with luck, Gengar can't just trap anything it wants and prepare a sweeper. If your opponent has a Mega Gengar, you should be wary of allowing your Xerneas or Kyogre check from being trapped, and this can be achieved by double switching and trying to OHKO Mega Gengar on the switch instead of allowing your Ho-Oh from being trapped, which can lead to a GeoXern sweep. This works particularly well if your check has a Choice Scarf, as Mega Gengar's base 130 Speed is simply not enough to get the job done against powerful revenge killers. Stall can also somewhat deal with Mega Gengar by using stuff such as Psychic + Shed Shell Blissey. That might seem overcentralizing, but hey, don't we generally run Aegislash specifically for dealing with Xerneas? At the end of the day, Mega Gengar is definitely one of the defining forces of the Uber metagame, but I don't think it's uncompetitive enough to warrant a ban.

 

[The Manifold Curiosity]

Gengarite: Do Not Ban

Reasons: 1. Its extremely frail and easy to 2KO from virtually any Uber pokemon. This means by playing aggressively (i.e attacking whenever Gengar might switch in) Gengar will struggle to come in safely (you may have to sacrifice a pokemon to do so) and have enough health to set up perish song and sub. Destiny bond versions also risk failure in these circumstances due to 50:50s. 2. It is a high risk and sometimes expensive choice. Due to its frailty the chances of failure are quite high therefore you could lose your Mega for nothing. Sacrificing a pokemon to bring it in solves this problem but as Gengar has to sacrifice or cripple itself quite often the price for catching and killing may not be worth 2 pokemon. 3. High skill is required to use Gengar properly and minimize your own damage. Many intelligent switches and moves are often required to make your opponent use the pokemon you want to catch. As Gengar has to waste a turn mega-evolving (when the key target can escape) the number of skillful moves required for Gengar to be at its most productive are high. Therefore Gengar requires and promotes competitive playing to be used successfully. If skill is not used then Gengar can be easily killed without achieving anything, so the risk is high for both players. 4. Priority destroys Gengar even if its at full health as long as the priority moves can 2KO Gengar (which it almost always does). This is because you can hit Gengar directly twice during perish-song (once when it uses perish song and again when it tries to sub) and take it out. Taunt+density bond also fails as you can hit it before it uses destiny bond. Simply attack, use non attacking moves until they taunt and then attack again to kill Gengar prior to it using destiny bond. You can try disable but the chance of disabling the wrong move (more 50/50s) makes it very risky. And of course directly attacking Gengar is easy to kill as long as you can take 1 hit. 5. There are competitive options available that minimize the threat Gengar poses. U-turn/volt-switch, roar/dragon tail, using a ghost, baton passing to a ghost or counter, shadow tag and shed shell (ok not so great but its a option just as weak water-absorbents were a option for dealing with Kyogure back in Gen 4) can be used on your key support pokemon without reducing its usefulness in the general Uber meta-game. To conclude there are many tactics and competitive options options available to deal with M-Gengar, so I see nothing about it that makes it un-competitive or ban-worthy.

 

[Safes]

Vote: Ban Gengarite

"Uncompetitive game aspects (or strategies) are those that take away autonomy (control of the game's events), take it out of the hand's of player's decisions-- and do so to a degree that can be considered uncompetitive."

Under this definition I believe Shadow Tag to be an inherently uncompetitive ability, due to switching being the most crucial part of a singles metagame; in other words the ability, preventing the most significant choices available to players, tends to reduce the influence of skill on the outcome of the game, turning it into a series of 50/50s between the tagger's chosen target and the eventual pursuiter on one side and the tagger and the Pokemon that its target is supposed to check, on the other. Moreover, I believe that in higher levels of play a correctly executed trapping strategy is, more often than not, causative of a win.
As a consequence, if we want to preserve the integrity of the Ubers tier, it is necessary (but imo not sufficient) to ban Shadow Tag's arguably most powerful abuser.
MegaGengar is probably also "broken", in the sense that it can trap an incredibly large portion of the metagame, forcing in most cases at least to trade pieces with DBond+Taunt (the amount of 50/50 the combo forces is something that adds to Gengarite's uncompetitiveness, imo) and bypass all of its so-called checks with the right set (ex: HP Fire for Scizor; FBlast the Tyranitar on the switch; Reflect type/Substitute to screw with pursuit in general), but this is most definitely not what pushed me to vote for a ban.

 

[Kebabe]

Do not ban

Even though it might be up to discussionn if trapping is uncompetetive the reason for that is trapping abilities in general and not Mega-Gengar. Banning Gengarite would be like banning Bibarel, Smeargle and Glaile instead of Moody (just ridiculous). Mega-Gengar can also be built around to manage its damage (like every other mon) that wasnt the case with the other bans

Also with Evasion in the meta its really hard to see how stuff like Gengarite is uncompetetive lol (plz quick ban evasion b4 R1 in Uber Open)

 

[Lord Alphose]

Vote: Do not ban

First off, I would just like to state that even in my time in playing the ladder, I did not find Mega Gengar to be all that overwhelming. In a "clash of the titans" sort of tier, I think it fits right in. But that's my opinion-y supported argument. Now for actual things:

Fireburn defined uncompetitive as "things that break game elements, invalidate important game mechanics, or otherwise detract from skill being the primary method of deciding Pokemon battles." Moves, items, and Pokemon that logically would be banned for these reasons are those that obstructing the volition of a player. Swagger was banned based on requiring no skill, or detracting from skill being the primary method of deciding Pokemon battles. The reason that I don't consider Gengarite to be banworthy is because, in my experience, it never detracted from the skill of the player. While laddering, I used several teams, in order to get a better feel of the tier, its mechanics, and specifically to see how Mega Gengar would do against different styles and cores. In the process of building these teams, I hardly ever even considered Mega Gengar as something I needed to prepare for. The most drastic thing I did was run Psychic on Xerneas so as to avoid losing it. In that sense, the argument that Mega Gengar "limits the teambuilding process" doesn't truly apply to Mega Gengar. Altogether, I didn't find Mega Gengar to be a terribly threatening Pokemon. In fact, as I climbed the ladder I discovered that Mega Gengar fit into the tier quite nicely, which may seem odd (this doesn't actually apply to my argument, but it had sort of an assassin feel to it. I don't know, seems weird, but that's what my mind went to.) In conclusion, Mega Gengar should not be banned as it does not restrict a player's volition as prediction, cause-and-effect, and intelligence are still an important aspect in playing against Mega Gengar.

 

[jas61292]

Do not ban

There are a lot of reasons why I don't think Gengarite should be banned, but to be as concise as I can, the most important ones simply boil down to the fact that I don't think there is any compelling argument in favor of a ban. Obviously as has been addressed many time, brokenness is not really something to be taken into account, as if it was not broken, it wouldn't be ubers in the first place. Rather, it is this whole "uncompetitiveness" thing that people are going on about. I personally just don't believe that such a thing really exists in this case. There are a few main arguments I see with regard to banning Mega Gengar: that preventing switching in general is uncompetitive, and that Mega Gengar creates 50/50 situations. The former of these I simply do not believe to be true. Switching is an integral part of Pokemon battles, sure. But so are abilities. One does not trump the other. A player has no "right" to switch. Preventing switching may make a Pokemon very powerful, but it does not take anything away that a player deserves to have. You just have to play knowing that your ability to switch may be impeded at some point. At best, what Shadow Tag does is put greater emphasis on the other decisions you make throughout the match.

That leads directly into the other half of the argument: the 50/50 situations. Fact is, 50/50 situations exist all the time. They are an inherent part of Pokemon in every tier and metagame. Shadow Tag does not create any more 50/50s than previously existed. The number of situations that can come up in the ubers metagame where the decisions of both players create a situation where one side will either suffer a KO or end up in a great position dependent entirely on player prediction are far too numerous to count. All Shadow Tag does is highlight these situations in the minds of the players. The situations come up all the time, but when Shadow Tag is in the mix, players see them coming, and actively try to avoid them. It causes a different mindset, but in the end, the effect is no different than any other 50/50 situation. The end result of a game is no more effected than it would otherwise be. Furthermore, many of these 50/50 situations arise from Mega Gengar's usage of Destiny Bond and Taunt, which often means that the supposed 50/50 scenarios end with both sides losing a Pokemon. While, obviously, it is possible that the loss of its opponent is far more crippling to the other player than your loss of Gengar, from my experience and my tracking of the discussions in the thread, I have yet to see anything that suggests any sort of causal relationship between these "50/50" or double KO scenarios and the overall outcome of a match.

Really, I think the best summary of my view would be this: Mega Gengar allows you to remove key threats from your opponents team. However, that is no different than any other Pokemon, except in scope. Using a strategy that revolves around picking off specific Pokemon so other team members can excel is one of the most basic types of strategies. And while Mega Gengar may be able to do this role easily enough so that it got booted up to ubers in the first place, there is nothing new or different about it when compared with the rest of the tier, and in the end, it still really comes down to which player executed their strategy the best and the quickest.

 

[orch]

Do not ban

Haxiom described my view pretty much perfectly. So, if you want any additional information beyond this post, just read this post. My major reason that gengarite ought be not banned is the fact that Shadow tag can be beaten in teambuilder. All viable pokemon in ubers meta are capable of punishing Gengarite and exploits the weaknesses that Gengarite possess. An example: Arceus-Grass can easily fit Punishment in the moveset and 2hko Gengar on switch. Punishment move is also useful for Gothitelle and CM wars with Arceus-Ghost. The fact is that it is definitely possible and doable to beat Gengarite in the teambuilder. If Gengarite is beaten in teambuilder, then opponent is unable to use it to win. Other major weakness that Gengarite possesses is the fact that it requires one turn to gain Shadow Tag ability. This delayed gain of ability allows you to pursuit trap with pokemon such as Tyranitar, Aegislash, Spiritomb, and Scizor. Admittedly, pursuit trapping can be thwarted by perfect prediction, correct coverage move, AND perfect accuracy. However, you must realize that Shadow Ball/Focus Blast/Taunt/Destiny Bond move set is only optimal to beat pursuit trapper, then Gengar possibly will be forced into ugly situations with desired targets due to lowered HP. And that, the set is incredibly bad at doing anything else. I realize that Pursuit is not a counter, but it's a method of dealing with Gengarite's influence on metagame. I want to echo Haxiom's sentiment that uncounterability does not equal to uncompetitiveness. For example, Geomancy Xerneas cannot be countered, yet Uber mods decided that they won't suspect test it. Gengarite belongs to the similar vein as Geomancy Xerneas. In short, Gengarite may be "technically" uncounterable, but that is not a reason to deem it as uncompetitive and that Gengarite can be easily beaten in teambuilder.

 

[Engdrew]

Gengarite: Do Not Ban

Reasoning:

This is my first time participating in an Ubers suspect test, but I have been battling since 4th Gen and have a good feel for battling in general. I read through most of the early portions of the thread to get a good idea of both sides of the argument, and I've decided to vote "Do Not Ban" for the following reasons.

1. Team Matchup. Reflecting what shrang stated in his numerous posts: Mega-Gengar amplifies the importance of team match-up. Playing around Mega-Gengar, though extremely difficult, can actually be planned out (from my experiences laddering Ubers). Mega-Gengar though fast, is extremely frail (especially in Ubers), often falling to hard hitting moves (i.e. Kyogre Surf, EKiller Arceus Earthquake, Zekrom Outrage/Bolt Strike). Yes, I understand the power of trapping with the Taunt + Perish Song + Destiny Bond set, but to me dealing with M-Gengar falls under the nature of sacrificing certain team members to deal with threats much like getting in your check/counter to a specific sweeper safely after saccing a less useful team member. On top of that, you get the option to use Mega-Gengar as well as other Shadow Tag users on your own team, potentially forcing your opponent into equally unfavorable situations.

2. Precendent with Luck based bans and Ubers as a "tier". Moody and Swagger bans (and to a certain extent Sleep Clause and OHKO Clause) I can totally understand as these luck based abilities and skills made the game "uncompetitive" as we on the forums like to call it. However, Mega-Gengar - you can say limits the option of switching, but otherwise has nothing to do with luck or RNG elements. I honestly don't get what why people have such huge hard-ons with so called "50/50 situations" how how they don't take "skill"...? It's just a different kind of prediction. Play smart. Calculate risk vs. reward. Use your brain. Honestly I think Smogon is a little too ban happy overall and very band-wagon-y (if that's even a word). Also regarding Ubers as a tier, I strongly believe it needs to remain "the competitive tier with the fewest bans" and I do not believe banning Gengarite reflects this ideal.

3. Overcentralization. Well built teams carry checks for numerous threats in Ubers (GeoXern, Kyogre, EKiller Arceus, Ho-Oh, etc.) and in my opinion Mega-Gengar should be no different when composing teams. Yes, stall's options are limited, but M@gik managed to achieve #2 or #1 on Ubers suspect ladder with a stall based team (can't find replays right now but his team was Arceus-Rock, Clefable, Ferrothorn, Kyogre, Tentacruel, Giratina...I think). I want to challenge the Pokemon Showdown and Smogon communities to TRY to break the meta, TRY to find more counters and checks to threats that come up!

P.S. Dice sounds like a huge dick. Calm down dude.

 

[Aquasition]

DO NOT BAN

I myself feel that this suspect test isn't just about Gengar, but it also decides just what kind of tier we are, and it really shows the whole "Banlist vs Tier" thing. With that said, I feel like Shadow tag is the main problem here, not MGengar. Too bad this is a MGengar suspect, not a S-tag one. I feel that M-gar is too frail to be an effective S-tagger. Yes, it can trap the likes of Chansey, but M-gar can get trapped itself via pursuit, which, when taking into account just who uses it, means either MGengar loses the ability to properly deal with certain threats, or the ability to beat the pursuit trappers. It may have 130 Speed, and 170 SAtk, but its strongest STAB move is Sludge Wave. Point is, sometimes, that high SAtk isn't enough without an item to augment it, and Gengarite takes an item slot. Also, M-gar needs that crucial turn to MEvo, and I find that most of its kills are gonna be from destiny bond from most of the times I've used it. It's a close argument, and I'm not gonna throw a hissy fit if it does get banned, but I have made my decision to not ban Mega Gengar from the Ubers tier.