Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

[Celticpride]

A few things.

• Mega Mawile and Heracross are not the only viable TR Megas. Mega Amphy is more than viable in the playstyle, resists everything Talonflame can throw at it in addition to being really slow and having a monstrous base 165 attack and good bulk.
• A proposal regarding TR rankings. The OP states "Garchomp can be ranked in A tier as an offensive threat, Forretress can be ranked under A as supportive threat and Skarmory can be can also be ranked in B tier as a defensive threat." Couldn't this be extended to weather and TR? Excadrill is A+ as a Sand threat, Kabutops is B+ as a Rain threat, Porygon2 is C as a TR threat. Just a thought.
• Why is Crawdaunt terrible? It can bust through Azumarill with it's STAB, which is impressive considering Azu resists both STABs.
  Damage Calcs

  252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 204-241 (50.4 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, 252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 198-233 (49 - 57.6%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
  What exactly on Stall can switch in on the LO set? Skarm is 2HKOed, Gliscor is demolished, Slowbro hates Knock Off, Ferro gets taken out by the combination of Knock Off and Superpower, Mandi and Quag get 2HKOed fairly easily. Physically Defensive Mega Venusaur is really the only thing that doesn't get 2HKOed. What's the argument for not moving it up? Useless against offense? Not many things want to take an Adaptability Aqua Jet to the face. Crawdaunt for B-.

 

[RufflesPro]

I don't post here much, but since I was laddering and playing OU a lot lately, I have used some good pokemons that are not even on the viability list and are pretty viable, while also using some other pokemons:

Magnezone up to A-: Yeah this is happening, this may be an exaggeration, but it's actually not. Magnezone has been especially handy to me lately, it is very useful and effective, as it can easily remove almost any steel- type in the game to support a teammate to sweep later, which is basically like 100% of the Dancers and even some good amount of non-dancing pokemon, like Mamoswine, really appreciate this.

Scarf set is a great birdspam check, while also giving a surprise to the opponent, it also is a great cleaner late game. fast Volt Switch spam is always nice too.
Specs is nice af and can OHKO Ferrothorn and shit pretty handy and useful.
Air Balloon + Magnet Rise is innovative af and gives Magnezone to shit on Exca and Ground type pokemons (funny how, all ground type pokemons have their other moves resisted) and should gain more popularity.

Gothitelle up to B+: This also may seem a bit extreme, going from B- to B+, but Gothitelle actually more than deserves it. Shadow tag is just fucking great and all of you guys know it. Whether it's is Scarf HP Ice, Scarf HP Fire, Specs HP ground, Specs HP fire, or even the Ubers set (CM/TR/Rest/Psychic) all of them are legit af and are so fucking good. Like Magnezone, it helps a lot of pokemon in sweeping, additionally, it shits on stall really hard. Moreover, it can be pretty surprising at times and run like HP ground for Heatran to support Gardevoir / Mega Char Y or something like that - Something that Magnezone can't do.

Swampert (yes) should be B-/B: Wut? Swampert? Well, yes, Swampert, that's how desperate I was in finding a 100% Thundurus counter. Let's start, unlike most ground- types, Swampert literally stops Electric spam, including the almighty Thundurus and Mega Manectric. Even Magnezone. What else can it do? It takes +2 Waterfall from Mega Gyarados, +2 Knock off from LO Bisharp, Mega T-tar's EQ at +4, +2 Dragon Claw from Adamant Zard X, +2 Outrage from Dragonite, etc. etc. and either OHKOs with EQ, burns with Scald, or just Roar. Just Roar. Simple af. Great check to like 1/2 of the meta.

After all that talk about Phys. Defensive Swampert. Mixed bulk Swampert should be talked about. I personally use 252 HP / 96+ Def / 160 SpD, and it is really great, the EVs avoid 2HKO from Greninja's Hydro Pump (2.7% to 2HKO) and lives 2 +2 Moonblasts from Clefable. While still being bulky on the physical side.

Swampert also sets up rocks more efficiently than Heatran and Landorus-T, having overall bulk and typing better than them. Torrent is also actually pretty nice for Scald.

Gourgiest-Super should be B- or at least C+: Yeah I went there. I always thought Gourgiest sucked ass, I always thought it shit, outclassed by Aegislash in every single way and being really slow. Until I used it post-mega Mawile-era. This thing is actually pretty legit, probably the most reliable spinblocker in the whole entire OU metagame right now. Everything else dies to Adamant LO EQ/Iron from Exca, or at least is 2HKO-d.

What does it do? 1. Spinblock 2. SHARE THE PAIN 3. Spread burns 4. SPAM LEECH SEED 5. Frisk the opponent's item and 6. use the last move, which is Phantom Force for me.

I don't even use Phys. Defensive Gourgiest, I use mixed bulk, 248 HP / 40+ Def / 220 SpD, which actually avoid the 2HKO from Thundurus's HP Ice and Bisharp's Black Glasses Adamant Knock off (LO barely OHKOs) and is actually pretty decent. Frisk is handy in knowing your opponent's item, Leech Seed + Phantom Force is fun af, and spreading burns is generally fun.

It stops multiples of sweepers like Mega Gyarados and Dragonite. It does have a niche in OU.

Celebi to B+: Celebi was hard to use with Mega Maw and Aegislash, but now it's actually pretty fun and useful to use. The combination of Heal Bell, Thunder Wave, and Recover with its great typing offer huge support to the team, and has some offensive presence, unlike Chansey (or can use Perish Song). But above all, Substitute + Thunder Wave + Baton Pass is hands down the best set, it literally gives a pokemon a sub vs. a paralyzed pokemon and can 99% of the time set up on it. For example, I used this to baton pass a Sub to Mega Gyara and Mega Tyranitar, and behind a sub and on the right pokemon, they can easily pull a sweep, thanks to Celebi. It's bulk and typing are also great, especially the latter, as it can take HP Ices, stops Keldeo, and generally Electric/Water/Fighting spam, which are like the most common stuff here.

Yeah this post is kinda wtf but it actually brings up a lot of good points.

 

[alexwolf]

o i forgot to post trc told me to...

proposing a tr rank to encompass exploud, porygon2, and crawdaunt, in addition to currently unranked mega abomasnow and cofagrigus, which are all pokemon that are pretty much only viable in trick room teams. the reason for this is, that while trick room MAY deserve to be mention somewhere, it is by no means an optimal strategy. i don't see tr as anything more than a fun, matchup-reliant gimmick that can work but generally isn't a consistent or viable playstyle to bring for a serious match. plus, the trick room mons don't really fit anywhere with the rest of the ranks, as they can only be effective in those specific conditions and on specific teams. a tr rank allows these pokemon to still be mentioned, but separates them from the rest of the pack.

also lol drop espeon and smeargle, these shitty bp teams that aren't even good aren't enough reason to keep them with good pokemon.

Mega Abomasnow and Cofagrigus are far from staples on TR teams. I honestly can't get why you would ever want to use Mega Aboma over other slow Megas, such as Mega Scizor or Mega Ampharos, that at least provide very useful defensive synergy, checking major threats to TR teams, such as Bisharp and Talonflame.

Also, Crawdaunt is not a TR only Pokemon. It's a Pokemon that can single handedly break down stall teams and easily break down defensive cores in general, so it fits very nicely on teams that have a hard time breaking through stall.

C+, C, C-, and D rank is perfectly fine for Pokemon used in a niche strategy such as Trick Room, because TR teams can still fuck up a lot of commonly used team types and be effective in general. And the match-up problem is heavily exaggerated. Yeah they can struggle against teams with really slow mons, such as Amoonguss and Slowbro, teams with a lot of Protect users, and some stall teams, but thankfully TR teams have access to a terrific wallbreaker in SD Crawdaunt that doesn't even need TR to be up to do its job against stall. And no Taunt bs please, Mental Herb is a must on your supportive TR setters, such as Diancie and Cresselia. I don't get why Porygon2's niche on TR teams is smaller than Chandy's niche as a scarfer, Alalazam's niche as a revenge killer, or Volcarona's niche as a sweeper. In my eyes, the size of their niche in OU is very similar, which is why they are all fine in C. We are not raking Pokemon based on playstyles, we are ranking them based on viability. And so what if some of those Pokemon are only viable in a certain kind of playstyle? That's why we have them so low in the rankings. Other Pokemon that are low on the rankings are also viable in only certain playstyles, such as Espeon, Ludicolo, and Seismitoad.

I am also not dropping Espeon and Smeargle because denisss has made a really good team with both of them that shows how potent this combo can still be, though it needs a whole team built around it, which is why C+ is good for them.

Finally:

This thing was so much better last generation. Went onto PS to get all the Duggy unviable crap, but I am making a small bump because it not on the same level as other D Rank 'mons like Salamence, Mantine, and Zygarde in which Dugtrio performs much better than all. C- is where it belongs. Its honestly just your preference. I find Dugtrio just as good as Tyranitar supporting my team. It traps so much useful crap in the current metagame. Mega Tyranitar being removed is godly because you are pretty much crapping on their two win conditions. Excadrill is gone and because there is no Sand, Excadrill is useless. In fact if you sack a 10% HP useless 'mon like Garchomp for Excadrill, you can bring in healthy Dugtrio, take the hit to Focus Sash and Earthquake it to death which is doing 99% minimum to it, OHKO after Rocks/LO damage. Reversal removes Tyranitar and Earthquake can remove both Magnezone and Heatran, two 'mons that are annoyances to teams. With Mega Charizard X having Heatran, and/or Tyranitar removed (which means Excadrill can't RK it), this leaves Talonflame, Hippowdon, and Azumarill left. Talonflame is so easy to check/counter with all the Heatran, Tyranitar, etc. Azumarill is taking 75% damage from Flare Blitz assuming it AV and lol Hippowdon is also taking like 70% with its Mixed Wall set. It makes Mega Charizard X so much more threatening to Offensive teams. especially since you have all these Scarf Lando-T's which can't even outpace +1 ZardX and get OHKOed by Adamant Flare Blitz. It is still pretty niche, but niche like the other D Rank 'mon. It also has nice speed to utilize cause it can trap and kill Terrakion, weakened Keldeo, Kyurem-B, and some other dangerous attackers like Mega Medicham, Kabutops (bye rain team), and Bisharp. At 1 HP, it can crush Chansey too which Mega Charizard X will have to take unnecessary damage to OHKO after Stealth Rock. C- lmao

I don't feel strongly about Dugtrio, but you are certainly overstating his pros. I mean, you just said that Dugtrio is as useful as Tyranitar in your team, which is ridiculous. There are way more consistent ways for supporting Pokemon such as Mega Charizard X and Talonflame, and ways that don't require you to use a Pokemon that is almost useless defensively and needs SR to be off the field to reliably KO a lot of the threats you mentioned. Specs Zone with HP Ground can trap Heatran for Talonflame and Mega Char X, Specs Goth can remove or weaken stuff such as Tyranitar, Heatran, and Lando-T (with Grass Knot, Hidden Power Ground, and Hidden Power Ice / Psychic) to the point that Talonflame and Mega Char X have a very easy time getting past them, and even overloading those Pokemon (which lack reliable recovery) with other physical sweepers is a better option most of the time.

 

[Karxrida]

Swampert (yes) should be B-/B: Wut? Swampert? Well, yes, Swampert, that's how desperate I was in finding a 100% Thundurus counter. Let's start, unlike most ground- types, Swampert literally stops Electric spam, including the almighty Thundurus and Mega Manectric. Even Magnezone. What else can it do? It takes +2 Waterfall from Mega Gyarados, +2 Knock off from LO Bisharp, Mega T-tar's EQ at +4, +2 Dragon Claw from Adamant Zard X, +2 Outrage from Dragonite, etc. etc. and either OHKOs with EQ, burns with Scald, or just Roar. Just Roar. Simple af. Great check to like 1/2 of the meta.

After all that talk about Phys. Defensive Swampert. Mixed bulk Swampert should be talked about. I personally use 252 HP / 96+ Def / 160 SpD, and it is really great, the EVs avoid 2HKO from Greninja's Hydro Pump (2.7% to 2HKO) and lives 2 +2 Moonblasts from Clefable. While still being bulky on the physical side.

Swampert also sets up rocks more efficiently than Heatran and Landorus-T, having overall bulk and typing better than them. Torrent is also actually pretty nice for Scald.

No. It's outclassed by a ton of shit at pretty much everything it wants to do and if it becomes a thing Thundy will just start running Grass Knot.

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 181-213 (45.1 - 53.1%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Thundurus Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 372-440 (92.7 - 109.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Thundurus Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 240 HP / 160 SpD Swampert: 316-372 (78.8 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 484-572 (120.6 - 142.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 240 HP / 160 SpD Swampert: 411-484 (102.4 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Swampert Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 91-108 (30.4 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Some counter.

Concerning the other stuff you mentioned, it doesn't matter if you can tank a hit if they still beat you or cripple you.

• Mega Gyarados will always 2HKO you at +1 as long as SR is up and it will always survive a Hammer Arm.
  
• Bisharp's Knock Off does 65% minimum with a boost and you lose your Lefties, will always 2HKO even without an item, and it can survive an Earthquake.
• Bulky Zard X always wins since +1 Dragon Claw is a 2HKO and you can't OHKO or burn it (or even OHKO with Outrage and SR).
• Dragonite 2HKOs with +1 Outrage and has a chance to 2HKO with +1 Dragon Claw and SR. It likes to carry a Lum Berry so you're not winning (Ice Punch can't even OHKO with Multiscale broken!).

Sure you can phaze them, but you're taking over 50% to do so in all cases and lack of recovery outside of Lefties means you're only checking them once without Wish Support.

You're not a good Greninja check since some carry HP Grass/Grass Knot, which always OHKOs.

Phazing out Clefable is only delaying it since you're not doing any damage to it. The rare LO variants can 2HKO you.

+1 4 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 240 HP / 160 SpD Swampert: 175-208 (43.6 - 51.8%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO (70.3% after SR).

Heatran and Lando-T are better SR setters since they have way more offensive presence, have better resists and immunities, and utility in Lando-T's case with Intimidate and U-turn.

For my final note, Scald is weak and you can't rely on it like Quasire and Alomomola can since you don't have reliable recovery to let you fish for burns.

 

[Cobalt314]

I'd like to nominate Metagross to the viability rankings. After the Gen shift, Metagross was expelled to UU because of its new weaknesses to Dark and Ghost, as well as some new threats like both Mega Charizard and Talonflame. However, OU just banned two of the Pokémon with which it faced competition, namely Aegislash and Mega Mawile, both which ran moves that could KO it easily. After these bans, I feel like Metagross can return to OU and use its albeit small Assault Vest niche. I haven't used it much since before its demotion, so feel free to take this with a grain of salt; however, I feel like there is just enough room to squeeze the quad core supercomputer into C- or D rank, if at all possible.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

I don't think ANYONE will run Grass Knot Landorus. Waste of a move slot.
Also, you usually run Avalanche on Swampert.

Also, you DONT RUN SCALD on Swampert. You run Waterfall. Here are some Calcs for Swampert.

252+ Atk Swampert Avalanche vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 560-660 (175 - 206.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Swampert Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 278-330 (86.8 - 103.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Swampert: 195-229 (48.2 - 56.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
Notice the no items on either.

More of a check, not a counter.
Also, of course a +1 boost with LO will 2Hko a pokemon with no resists.
EDIT: Derp, were talking bout Thundurus.

 

[skies]

I really like Swampert, hell I named my OMPL team after Mega Swampert, but I can honestly say it should stay Unranked. B is absolutely insane, it's seriously nowhere near the league Celebi. Sure, a few gens ago it was, but not anymore it's not. Swampert is nice it does well to check non-Grass Knot Thunderus (Which I run anyways hue), but outside of that what does it have over ANYTHING else? Quagsire, it's main competition, is better because it has reliable recovery and Unaware which give it a solid niche. Swampert just kinda sits there. Sure, it can set Stealth Rock, check a thing or two, then uhhh... Faint? I've used it before, I wanted to test it because surely it had a niche and it was just so underwhelming. I always thought when using it "Why am I not using a different Pokemon? Quagsire, Landorus-T, and Suicune seem better for respective typings. Well, I mean, I'll test it..." And those were my thoughts, why would I ever use it? I'm sorry but I have to disagree and vote to Keep Swampert Unranked.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

I have to say, I have seen some RU mons do decently in OU (Amoongus, Alomomola, etc.) but, Ive noticed one skyrocket in discussion. This pokemon is Reuniclus (Sorry if I misspelt) and I have used it multiple times. I mean, its not TOO good, but with Trick Room, it gives it Priority Recover, which is good. It turns it into the fastest OU pokemon (besides TR Ferrothorn) when in Trick Room. Then it can have 3 moves that have decent coverage (Sadly its hard to pick because you NEED a slot for Recover) to potentially sweep teams. Obviously, its not perfect. It has its weaknesses like Bisharp, TTar, basically every Dark type in OU. It is also a great support mon for Trick Room teams.

I have not played Gen 5 OU, but I was around the time area when XY started. I heard Reuniclus was an amazing OU mon in Gen 5 and it could be potentially revived.

Dont bash me for saying this; but I think Reuniclus would be a good C+ to B nominee.

 

[skies]

I'd just like to point at that the tiering of a Pokemon ≠ viability. Similarly to Fletchinder for example. Fletchinder is very good in RU, but not as amazing in UU, and certainly not in OU. Any Pokemon can be ranked, it depends on how they work, not what tier they're in. Mew is an OU example, being a UU Pokemon but also being very high up in usage. Or, in reverse: Vaporeon, Vaporeon is OU by usage but not ranked.

 

[RufflesPro]

No. It's outclassed by a ton of shit at pretty much everything it wants to do and if it becomes a thing Thundy will just start running Grass Knot.

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 181-213 (45.1 - 53.1%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Thundurus Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 372-440 (92.7 - 109.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Thundurus Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 240 HP / 160 SpD Swampert: 316-372 (78.8 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 484-572 (120.6 - 142.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 240 HP / 160 SpD Swampert: 411-484 (102.4 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Swampert Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 91-108 (30.4 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Some counter.

Concerning the other stuff you mentioned, it doesn't matter if you can tank a hit if they still beat you or cripple you.

• Mega Gyarados will always 2HKO you at +1 as long as SR is up and it will always survive a Hammer Arm.
  
• Bisharp's Knock Off does 65% minimum with a boost and you lose your Lefties, will always 2HKO even without an item, and it can survive an Earthquake.
• Bulky Zard X always wins since +1 Dragon Claw is a 2HKO and you can't OHKO or burn it (or even OHKO with Outrage and SR).
• Dragonite 2HKOs with +1 Outrage and has a chance to 2HKO with +1 Dragon Claw and SR. It likes to carry a Lum Berry so you're not winning (Ice Punch can't even OHKO with Multiscale broken!).

Sure you can phaze them, but you're taking over 50% to do so in all cases and lack of recovery outside of Lefties means you're only checking them once without Wish Support.

You're not a good Greninja check since some carry HP Grass/Grass Knot, which always OHKOs.

Phazing out Clefable is only delaying it since you're not doing any damage to it. The rare LO variants can 2HKO you.

+1 4 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 240 HP / 160 SpD Swampert: 175-208 (43.6 - 51.8%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO (70.3% after SR).

Heatran and Lando-T are better SR setters since they have way more offensive presence, have better resists and immunities, and utility in Lando-T's case with Intimidate and U-turn.

For my final note, Scald is weak and you can't rely on it like Quasire and Alomomola can since you don't have reliable recovery to let you fish for burns.

First of all, 240 HP is for the UU set, I use 252 HP

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 181-213 (44.8 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 160 SpD Swampert: 153-181 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Scald + Roar is actually more than enough to cripple Thundurus with rocks up, especially if you got a burn. Also for all the Thundurus-es never any of them even tried to Focus Blast, and if they did, it will be really hard to get rid of Swampert. And more often than will regret their decision.

Oh, I don't know if you were playing the metagame recently, but 1. GK Thundy is ass, it's a good lure but still very situational and 2. nobody uses it.

Also, plz name any pokemon that is more viable the Swampert and can counter ALL Thundurus's sets. Raikou isn't as reliable as Swampert btw.

Also:

• Mega Gyarados will always 2HKO you at +1 as long as SR is up and it will always survive a Hammer Arm. Don't use Hammer arm, and while that is true, Roar is your optimal choice. Remember that Mega Gyarados risks being burned while setting up or at least take heavy damage, nobody gives Mega Gyara set up for free.
• Bisharp's Knock Off does 65% minimum with a boost and you lose your Lefties, will always 2HKO even without an item, and it can survive an Earthquake. ok. But remember that always when setting up you have to sacrifice something, and Swampert has a 50% chance to OHKO after rocks.
• Bulky Zard X always wins since +1 Dragon Claw is a 2HKO and you can't OHKO or burn it (or even OHKO with Outrage and SR). True.
• Dragonite 2HKOs with +1 Outrage and has a chance to 2HKO with +1 Dragon Claw and SR. It likes to carry a Lum Berry so you're not winning (Ice Punch can't even OHKO with Multiscale broken!). 2HKOs, yes, but you just roar, and even if somehow Dragonite got a complete free set up turn (really hard) and had mutliscale unbrokne, if rocks are up it lost something.

As for HP Grass / Grass Knot Greninja, those are rare and less common than HP fire / w/e last move ones are.

As for Clefable

+1 4 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 160 SpD Swampert: 175-208 (43.3 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 4 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 160 SpD Swampert: 175-208 (43.3 - 51.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

idk what set you posted

I really like Swampert, hell I named my OMPL team after Mega Swampert, but I can honestly say it should stay Unranked. B is absolutely insane, it's seriously nowhere near the league Celebi. Sure, a few gens ago it was, but not anymore it's not. Swampert is nice it does well to check non-Grass Knot Thunderus (Which I run anyways hue), but outside of that what does it have over ANYTHING else? Quagsire, it's main competition, is better because it has reliable recovery and Unaware which give it a solid niche. Swampert just kinda sits there. Sure, it can set Stealth Rock, check a thing or two, then uhhh... Faint? I've used it before, I wanted to test it because surely it had a niche and it was just so underwhelming. I always thought when using it "Why am I not using a different Pokemon? Quagsire, Landorus-T, and Suicune seem better for respective typings. Well, I mean, I'll test it..." And those were my thoughts, why would I ever use it? I'm sorry but I have to disagree and vote to Keep Swampert Unranked.

Here's what it has more than Quagsire:

• Offensive presence; More Atk and SpA
• More Spe
• More HP, Def, and SpD
• Phazing

I know that Quagsire has Recovery and Unaware, but it's bulk is kinda dismal compared to Swampert.

Landorus-T?

• Better Typing
• More HP and More SpD
• Doesn't rely too much on Intimidate for physical bulk
• Ability to burn
• Phazing

Yes, Landorus-T has much more offensive presence, Knock off, and U-turn, but Swampert has a niche too.

Quagsire can't check Thundurus, it is 2HKO-d by Focus Blast. Swampert can, Swampert can also actually take hits on the special side, being able to take less than 75% (my set) from Latios's Draco Meteor (LO) [I know it does like nothing back, but it is just an example]

Swampert is not an amazing pokemon, it is decent and can check a good amount of the metagame by spreading burns and phazing while also setting up rocks.
Swampert does just "sit there" but it is really useful and handles a bunch of pokemon, like Thundurus, which is common af and is hella annoying to face.

In the end, maybe B- was a bit too much, but swampert should definitely be ranked, at least somewhere in C, pls used it post-mega-maw era, it is actually pretty amazing.

 

[escarlata]

First of all, 240 HP is for the UU set, I use 252 HP

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 181-213 (44.8 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 160 SpD Swampert: 153-181 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Scald + Roar is actually more than enough to cripple Thundurus with rocks up, especially if you got a burn. Also for all the Thundurus-es never any of them even tried to Focus Blast, and if they did, it will be really hard to get rid of Swampert. And more often than will regret their decision.

Oh, I don't know if you were playing the metagame recently, but 1. GK Thundy is ass, it's a good lure but still very situational and 2. nobody uses it.

Also, plz name any pokemon that is more viable the Swampert and can counter ALL Thundurus's sets. Raikou isn't as reliable as Swampert btw.

Also:



As for HP Grass / Grass Knot Greninja, those are rare and less common than HP fire / w/e last move ones are.

As for Clefable

+1 4 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 160 SpD Swampert: 175-208 (43.3 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 4 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 160 SpD Swampert: 175-208 (43.3 - 51.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

idk what set you posted



Here's what it has more than Quagsire:

• Offensive presence; More Atk and SpA
• More Spe
• More HP, Def, and SpD
• Phazing

I know that Quagsire has Recovery and Unaware, but it's bulk is kinda dismal compared to Swampert.

Landorus-T?

• Better Typing
• More HP and More SpD
• Doesn't rely too much on Intimidate for physical bulk
• Ability to burn
• Phazing

Yes, Landorus-T has much more offensive presence, Knock off, and U-turn, but Swampert has a niche too.

Quagsire can't check Thundurus, it is 2HKO-d by Focus Blast. Swampert can, Swampert can also actually take hits on the special side, being able to take less than 75% (my set) from Latios's Draco Meteor (LO) [I know it does like nothing back, but it is just an example]

Swampert is not an amazing pokemon, it is decent and can check a good amount of the metagame by spreading burns and phazing while also setting up rocks.
Swampert does just "sit there" but it is really useful and handles a bunch of pokemon, like Thundurus, which is common af and is hella annoying to face.

In the end, maybe B- was a bit too much, but swampert should definitely be ranked, at least somewhere in C, pls used it post-mega-maw era, it is actually pretty amazing.

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Why would you ever use Swampert over this guy, which is practically better in every way. Reliable recovery, (much) better ability, Clear Smog so it can actually do something to a Clefable instead of trying to Roar it away to delay your inevitable eventual defeat. It is only marginally less bulky than Swampert, higher SpA. Aaaannnnd this guy is in C-. I don't see why Swampert can be higher than it.

 

[Karxrida]

First of all, 240 HP is for the UU set, I use 252 HP

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 181-213 (44.8 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 160 SpD Swampert: 153-181 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Scald + Roar is actually more than enough to cripple Thundurus with rocks up, especially if you got a burn. Also for all the Thundurus-es never any of them even tried to Focus Blast, and if they did, it will be really hard to get rid of Swampert. And more often than will regret their decision.

Oh, I don't know if you were playing the metagame recently, but 1. GK Thundy is ass, it's a good lure but still very situational and 2. nobody uses it.

Also, plz name any pokemon that is more viable the Swampert and can counter ALL Thundurus's sets. Raikou isn't as reliable as Swampert btw.

Also:



As for HP Grass / Grass Knot Greninja, those are rare and less common than HP fire / w/e last move ones are.

As for Clefable

+1 4 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 160 SpD Swampert: 175-208 (43.3 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 4 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 160 SpD Swampert: 175-208 (43.3 - 51.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

idk what set you posted

It honestly doesn't matter if you have 12 more HP EVs when you still don't counter Thundy like you claimed it did and I posted Grass Knot because people do run it like unfixable (who's a pretty knowledgeable player and knows his/her shit). Just because it doesn't show up in the usage stats doesn't automatically mean it's unviable.

You're relying heavily on Scald burns to check a ton when, like I said, you can't afford to fish for them since you're only form of Recovery is Lefties. If you didn't get the burn on stuff like Mega Gyarados the first time you attack you've basically lost anyway since they're still 2HKOing you. By the way some run Sub so you're not a completely reliable check anyway. Before you bring up Keldeo, its Scald is pretty strong and meant to be used on common switch-ins since none of them appreciate getting burned, so you can afford to play hit-and-run with it.

If Thundy had a hard counter that was viable everyone and their mother would be running it to support their sweepers.

On Greninja HP Grass and Grass Knot are both viable options (and according to the stats only slightly more rare than HP Fire anyway) since they hit a ton of stuff (HP Grass is the best way to deal with T-Tar without miss hax).

Doesn't matter if Clefable isn't 2HKOing you off the bat if you can't do shit to it and have to take a hit to phaze it out with no recovery outside of Lefties.

 

[Rostam]

It should be noted that running GK and HP fire on ninja is getting more popular now(on the same set)

 

[Flamer]

Professional2341 Karx is right. I have and many other people I assume used GK on Thund at some point, its a decent lure for mons like quaggy, mamo and ttar without having to rely on Focus miss. HP Grass/KN is actually really common on Ninja now to beat AV Azu, some even run both GN and HP Fire on the same set as GK does roughly the same damage to most of the mons than Extrasensory does anyway. Either way, Swampert is damn near unviable in the current meta, the only thing it can do is set SR and there are plenty of mons who do that better anyway.

 

[Synchronation]

Chansey to B+:
I agree with everything that has been said. It is too passive, setup fodder for many Pokemon and fears Knock Off or Trick/Switcheroo like no one else. It does a great job as status catcher and cleric, but thats about it. Sylveon and Clefable have way more offensive presence and can do the same, therefore they are way better options in the meta right now. Move Chansey down.
While I mentioned Sylveon, it could move up instead. It is a good cleric, has a great defensive typing and offensive presence. Sadly, I don't have much experience with it, so maybe someone else can say more about it.

Kyurem-Black to A:
It is finally time. Stall being less passive now, Kyurem-Black has an easier time to wallbreak. The special based set was always reliant on Outrage to not being walled by Chansey, the physical set lacked power on the special side. Both of these sets are way better now, since Outrage is not a must anymore. It can break through typical stall teams in the current meta or support other wallbreakers (like Mega-Medicham or CharX) by removing certain threats. Slowbro being very popular right now, the physically based set can 2HKO it. Clefable, a famous win condition on stall teams, can be handled even after a few CM thanks to Iron Head. The special variant has an easy time to wallbreak because it can have Roost instead of Outrage without fearing Chansey too much anymore.
The ban of Mega-Mawile helps it alot with one of its checks gone. Sadly, Pokemon like Terrakion, Gardevoir, Medicham and Heracross were rising, giving him a hard time. While this is true, Kyurem-Blacks main job is to wallbreak, not kill wallbreakers. Besides this, none of them can really switch into Kyurem without getting too much damage or being straight up KO'ed. Terrakion and Medicham are fearing every attack of it, Gardevoir has to be careful of physical variants (although Fusion Bolt from the special one is hurting too) and Heracross takes great damage from Ice Beam. Scarf variants can even revenge kill them.
Kyurem-Black is better than it was, as it can handle stall teams way easier now without being completely useless against offensive teams. In my eyes, it is an A-rank Pokemon.

Crawdaunt to B-:
Great wallbreaker, enormous power and access to strong priority. He isn't relying on Trick Room as it can handle stall teams very well without it. It only fears Mega-Venusaur, but after a bit of prior damage Crunch can 2HKO it. It has a poor bulk and is in a low speed tier, but it is enough for doing its job. It is less useful against offensive teams (although Aqua Jet hurts a lot), but definitely not a burden. A great option for teams which need a great stallbreaker. A very underrated Pokemon. Move it up to B-.

Jellicent to C-:
Less ghost-spam is a blessing for it. Hardcountering Keldeo and Suicune with Water Absorb, very annoying thanks to Taunt + Will O Wisp and a good check to Mega-Heracross with Cursed Body. It is still very reliant on team support, fearing Knock Off and Crunch (hard time to switch into Tyranitar). It can be very useful which warrants a C- -Rank, D seems too low for me.

 

[dEnIsSsS]

hehe Smeargle still is C+ because of this team: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/baton-pass-skill.3514679/ B)

edit: Whimsicott is also ranked now!

alexwolf Smeargle can do other things too, just like many people said. It is a decent lead (it is faster than Skarmory and Breloom) with Dark Void, Stealth Rock, Sticky Web and Whirlwind/Magic Coat/Taunt and its Smash Pass still works (the recipient must hold a White Herb though).

 

[TFL]

hehe Smeargle still is C+ because of this team: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/baton-pass-skill.3514679/ B)

edit: Whimsicott is also ranked now!

Get Cottonee ranked next. It can be done!

 

[Numera]

Don't forget how Chansey isn't the best wish passer in OU anymore even without Clefable. Clefable does it's job (arguably) way better, but Alomomola does it even better than that. High hp, it's a bulky water, actual room for toxic/knock off and scald's burn chance. I know Chansey has Heal Bell (Clefable has it anyway) and bigger wishes, but Alom's tend to be big enough. In this metagame, Chansey's defensive typing is utter shit and it's just far too passive to keep up with stall's current standards. B+ seems fine, but I'd argue to drop it to B.

About Sylveon, the only thing that stops it from being completely outclassed by Clefable is it's hard hitting Hyper Voice and the specs set that isn't all that bad. I'd keep it at C+.

 

[Flarowak]

I'm fully behind megazam for A-, as mentioned when used properly trace can be really scary for a lot of players. Imo, it's one of, if not the #1, most underrated sweeper in the meta right now. Pairing it with skarm helps it deal with all the unappreciated priority, and it hits like a truck. I have been using him a lot more lately in this meta and he is rewarding me for it.

 

[alexwolf]

hehe Smeargle still is C+ because of this team: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/baton-pass-skill.3514679/ B)

edit: Whimsicott is also ranked now!

alexwolf Smeargle can do other things too, just like many people said. It is a decent lead (it is faster than Skarmory and Breloom) with Dark Void, Stealth Rock, Sticky Web and Whirlwind/Magic Coat/Taunt and its Smash Pass still works (the recipient must hold a White Herb though).

Yeah i know, but Smeargle is in C+ because of its Geomancy set. SpashPass and lead with Sticky Web are ok, but not worthy more than C rank.

 

[Jukain]

alexwolf if you're telling me a team that basically autoloses to talonflame, clear smog amoonguss, scizor, bisharp, and in general using your brain is actually good then you're heavily mistaken. smeargle is only even partially competent on one team, barely worthy of c- rank.

edit: ok give severe matchup disadvantage whatever

 

[dEnIsSsS]

alexwolf if you're telling me a team that basically autoloses to talonflame, clear smog amoonguss, scizor, bisharp, and in general using your brain is actually good then you're heavily mistaken. smeargle is only even partially competent on one team, barely worthy of c- rank.

talonflame scizor and bisharp are far from being team counters (amoonguss is also trapped by goth). read my rmt and then you can give us a better reply

 

[Prinz]

Agreeing with alexwolf about the Smeargle thing. Smashpass isn't rly common because when you use a Smashpass teams you will win or lose according to the matchup, and thats very bad. This is the reason why it shouldn't be used in tournaments and why it's just used in fun games. Also, Smeargle isn't the best at setupping Sticky Web either, because it wants both Focus Sash to resist at least 1 hit and the Mental Herb to avoid annoying Taunts. Obv it can't run both at the same time, and things like Galvantula and Shuckle are just better at doing that, being faster (the first) and much bulkier (the latter). C+ is fine for it

 

[Valmanway]

Since Mega Alakazam's getting much more love, I think regular Alakazam should get some as well. At least enough to make him just C+ as a start. Now that Aegislash and Mega Mawile are out of OU, his Focus Sash revenge killer set is even more viable, as it can easily revenge kill the likes of Landorus, Keldeo, Terrakion, Gengar, and Garchomp, as well as a few others, and can avoid field hazards with Magic Guard and preserve his Focus Sash for an incoming attack, thus setting himself apart from other revenge killers.

 

[_Mew2King_]

alexwolf if you're telling me a team that basically autoloses to talonflame, clear smog amoonguss, scizor, bisharp, and in general using your brain is actually good then you're heavily mistaken. smeargle is only even partially competent on one team, barely worthy of c- rank.

edit: ok give severe matchup disadvantage whatever

read this: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/baton-pass-after-the-second-nerf.3515723/