CAP 19 CAP 19 - Part 6 - Stat Spread Submissions

[Da Pizza Man]

Don't use more than 100 Speed

I agree with jas that going with more than 100 Speed is bad, as we want Landorus and Garchomp to beat us one on one at worst, which isn't happening if go with more than 100 Speed because of Hidden Power Ice.

Problem with your statement on HP Ice is that it forces us to have a Speed IV of 30, so we are not going to be speed tieing with Landorus at all, unless for some reason Landorus-I is running a HP that decreases speed. 101 is honestly fine, but any higher than that is pushing it

Bummer Edit: Don't quote entire large posts when the only relevant part is a few sentences long.

 

[alexwolf]

Problem with your statement on HP Ice is that it forces us to have a Speed IV of 30, so we are not going to be speed tieing with Landorus at all, unless for some reason Landorus-I is running a HP that decreases speed. 101 is honestly fine, but any higher than that is pushing it

You can run HP Ice without lowering your Speed IVs.

 

[capefeather]

I agree with most of alexwolf's post, but I find this reasoning in particular a bit problematic:

We should be aiming for the CAP to lure in the Pokemon that Gyarados can set up on as consistently as possible, which isn't happening when you outspeed and OHKO offensive checks that Gyarados can set up on, such as Landorus and Garchomp.

[...]

Also, Greninja and Starmie should OHKO the CAP with their Psychic moves from offensive sets, even if the CAP runs some HP investment (which it will if we want it to check Water-types), because those Pokemon get OHKOed if they don't OHKO and so Mega Gyarados can't use them as set up bait.

The thing is, CAP 19 cannot lure in Landorus if the Landorus player knows that KOing CAP 19 is going to result in a Mega Gyarados sweep. This is true whether or not CAP 19 can actually beat Landorus one-on-one. This argument basically assumes that the opponent isn't thinking very far ahead. Now, I completely agree that it's useful to the project to have Pokemon like Landorus check CAP 19 (hence I don't go over 101), but that's really more of a power control argument. I guess that the power control argument is somewhat compelling and I'm still relatively open to taking my spread to 100 Speed. That said, I'm not sure I see what the big deal is with tying with a single threat, when CAP 19 may be heavily incentivised to invest in bulk and run Hidden Power Fire.

 

[alexwolf]

I agree with most of alexwolf's post, but I find this reasoning in particular a bit problematic:The thing is, CAP 19 cannot lure in Landorus if the Landorus player knows that KOing CAP 19 is going to result in a Mega Gyarados sweep. This is true whether or not CAP 19 can actually beat Landorus one-on-one. This argument basically assumes that the opponent isn't thinking very far ahead. Now, I completely agree that it's useful to the project to have Pokemon like Landorus check CAP 19 (hence I don't go over 101), but that's really more of a power control argument. I guess that the power control argument is somewhat compelling and I'm still relatively open to taking my spread to 100 Speed. That said, I'm not sure I see what the big deal is with tying with a single threat, when CAP 19 may be heavily incentivised to invest in bulk and run Hidden Power Fire.

If we make the CAP threatening enough then Landorus could as well be practically forced to come in, otherwise the opponent might be forced to sacrifice a vital member of his team. Or the Landorus player could choose to OHKO the CAP because he has a Mega Gyarados answer but one unable to switch in directly to it, such as Scarf Terrakion or Scarf Landorus-T, like many offensive teams do. So his plan would be to send Landorus in to check the CAP, KO the CAP, be set up on by Mega Gyarados and sacrifice something, and then bring in the Scarfer to revenge kill. However, this could be taken advantage by the Mega Gyarados player by either letting the opponent KO and then use the scarfer to set up with something else, or go to a resist to get momentum, and maybe set up with Mega Gyarados again later.

We can make the choice to KO the CAP or not as complex as we want when teambuilding, but for this to happen we first have to make sure that the CAP attracts the Pokemon we want it to.

EDIT: NumberCruncher

The CAP has a Fairy resistance, a Toxic immunity, a Poison resistance, a Water immunity, an Electric resistance, lack of Rock and Ice weaknesses and therefore lack of SR weakness, and Poison STAB to deal with Grass and Fairy-types, while also being 4x weak to Ground moves and 2x weak to Psychic moves, unlike Zapdos which is immune to Ground and neutral to Psychic. This means that the CAP can actually switch into Pokemon such as Keldeo, Rotom-W, CM Clefable, and Thundurus, that Zapdos can't, while Zapdos can switch into Pokemon such as Landorus, Latias, and Earthquake Mega Pinsir, that the CAP can't. Furthermore, how can you be talking about the CAP having a garbage matchup vs most of OU when the CAP already beats 3 out of 5 S rank Pokemon (Azumarill, Keldeo, and Thundurus) and many Pokemon from A rank, such as Clefable, Ferrothorn, Rotom-W, Mega Scizor, Skarmory, Mandibuzz, and Breloom. Finally, we don't even know yet if the CAP will have 125 SpA and 100 Speed, it could easily have 90 Speed and 135 SpA which makes it even more different, so cut the drama.

 

[Stratos]

Let's talk about Speed. I also am a fan of having 100, not 101, speed. The reason is simple: no numbskull is going to risk their Gardevoir on a speed tie, the thing is a fricking nuke and carries games. With only a speed tie, we'll still force it out 98% of the time (the other 2% when the opponent is in a place where they must risk the tie). However, people also don't want to risk their Landorus on a speed tie. Since we don't want to force Landorus out, we should make it safe to stay in and KO, which means not speed tying. (I'm not saying that 100 is the only speed which can be justified, just that if you're submitting exactly 101, I think 100 is a better number).

Also i think the concern with outspeeding Gardevoir way overblown. It's not like we can switch into it; any team with CAP19 and Gyara is going to need a better Gardevoir counter anyways. So don't feel constrained to "beating Gardevoir" because yeah lol thats not really realistic.

 

[Bughouse]

Final Submission

85/60/85/125/90/100

PS: 95.52
PT: 131.02
SS: 203.25
ST: 139.83
BSR: 310.03

The Speed

100 Speed is an unfortunate necessity. Were 100.5 speed a thing, I would do it. I don't love speed tying with Char-X, Char-Y, Gardevoir, and a whole swathe of things. However, I think tying with Landorus is a far scarier possibility. We already counter Thundurus, Azumarill, and Keldeo. We've decided in our threatlist that we must be a strong enough presence to prevent Char-X from setting up on us. We cannot go ahead and also threaten the 5th member of OU's S-rank, Landorus. Landorus's Earth Power MUST be a reliable solution to CAP 19. Were we a Physical attacker, with nonviable HP Ice, we could go super fast. But with strong Special Attack and HP Ice looming, we must be slower than 101 Speed. Regrettably that forces us into the crowded base 100 speed tier.

I am pretty concerned about the balance of this Pokemon if we even tie Landorus or Garchomp, much less outrun both. We check or counter a massive portion of the metagame already and the opponent should not be forced to live or die, depending on which Hidden Power CAP 19 happens to be running. The Ground types that are faster than CAP 19 MUST be solid checks to all sets of CAP 19.

The Power

I have settled upon 125 Special Attack and no higher because I am unconvinced that any higher than 125 is necessary. Behold the calcs below. Anything beyond what 125 can do, in my eyes, is unnecessary power boost that threatens to overpower CAP 19.

Regular old 252 SpA sets can prevent even Bulky DD Char-X from setting up
252 SpA CAP 19 Sludge Bomb vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 165-195 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
Sludge Wave 2HKOes as well, obviously

Meanwhile, if you use LO, you can stop SpDef Char-X from trying to wall you, even if you don't have Rocks up.
252 SpA Life Orb CAP 19 Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 148+ SpD Charizard: 165-195 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 54.7% chance to 2HKO (higher obvsly bc Poison chance)
252 SpA Life Orb CAP 19 Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 148+ SpD Charizard: 175-207 (48.7 - 57.6%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

Also, you 2HKO Assault Vest Azumarill, Latios after Rocks, and Mega Mawile
252 SpA CAP 19 Sludge Bomb vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 176-210 (51 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA CAP 19 Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 133-157 (44 - 51.9%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO, guaranteed after rocks
252 SpA CAP 19 Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 139-165 (46 - 54.6%) -- 55.1% chance to 2HKO, guaranteed after rocks
252 SpA CAP 19 Thunderbolt vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 150-177 (54.7 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And against Keldeo, whose Specs Secret Sword still hurts
252 SpA CAP 19 Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 312-368 (96.5 - 113.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO, guaranteed after rocks

With LO you become a pretty efficient nuke
252 SpA Life Orb CAP 19 Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Amoonguss: 207-243 (47.9 - 56.2%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery, but guaranteed 2HKO after rocks (Sludge Bomb has an 87.5% chance after Rocks too)

Same exact deal with Mega Venusaur
252 SpA Life Orb CAP 19 Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 168-199 (46.1 - 54.6%) -- 52.3% chance to 2HKO, guaranteed after rocks (Sludge Bomb has a 13.3% chance, also guaranteed after rocks)

Hate Ferrothorn?
252 SpA CAP 19 Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 196-232 (55.6 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The Bulk

Die to the things we want to die to, just barely, so that the general bulk remains usable against the things we also want to beat.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD CAP 19: 315-374 (100.9 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO, we want this to be the case!

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def CAP 19: 270-318 (86.5 - 101.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def CAP 19: 135-159 (43.2 - 50.9%) -- 53.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery, can be dropped to a very small chance without too heavy of EV investment, if so desired

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def CAP 19: 118-140 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, no chance if using Leftovers

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def CAP 19: 102-121 (32.6 - 38.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, important to live the first 2 after rocks, so we can switch in, since it'll take CAP 19 2 hits to KO AssVest Azumarill

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD CAP 19: 101-121 (32.3 - 38.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, not 2HKOed so we can switch in!

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def CAP 19: 283-333 (90.7 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO, shaky check if running CC instead of EQ

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def CAP 19: 253-298 (81 - 95.5%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def CAP 19: 208-246 (66.6 - 78.8%) Life Orb CAP 19 can safely KO with Thunderbolt, since Sucker won't kill, meanwhile, you can also live the Knock Off if you must

252 SpA Mega Manectric Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD CAP 19: 159-188 (50.9 - 60.2%), meaning we can definitely live two, as well as any move followed by Overheat

 

[NumberCruncher]

If we're going to force the CAP to max out it's speed at 100, what exactly is making this guy better than Zapdos?

We won't be able to take hits better than it, because of how we set up the max-mins on our PT and ST. We don't have nearly as good a typing as Zapdos does. Zapdos is going to be better at taking down Ferrothorn, Amoongus, Magnezone, Celebi, and Chensaught by virtue of the Heat Wave in its movepool. It has Roost so it can't just get chipped out of the game, and many of the Pokemon that beat it are ones Gyarados can set up on. Not only that, but it also has some convenient overlap, so that even with Gyarados fainted, Zapdos can still down one or two of the Pokemon Gyarados would have wanted to set up on.

Zapdos is good against Thundurus and Talonflame and Mega-Pinsir.

If we want to justify the use of CAP over Zapdos, we need to be able to beat at least one of Latios, Latias, Dragonite, Mega-Gardevoir, or Charizard X in a straight up one-on-one situation. The only one of these we've assumed we can outspeed is Dragonite, and since the others can OHKO you, he's the only one we can focus on. The maximum Special Attack we can have is 139. If an Electric Poison uses Hidden Power Ice on Dragonite and tries to hit through Multiscale with those stats, it only does at max 65% damage, which means that you already need to have damage set on it. This means that something had to get killed by Dragonite or else you have to switch in after another Pokemon gets killed by it. The problem is that now you've opened yourself to the case where Dragonite Dragon Danced during the switch or when he was killing the other mon. At this point, you don't outspeed Dragonite, and he can OHKO you with Earthquake.

Really, the whole logic behind this 100 max thing is backwards. CAP doesn't have to be weak to every little thing Gyarados can set up on. We're doing stat calculations on Weavile for goodness sake. At that point, we might as well make sure CAP can lose to Luvdisc. CAP ought to be able to set up Gyarados by being as selective in how he's killed as possible. Even if one or two Pokemon that Gyarados can set up on slip through the cracks, we have to make sure we aren't getting axed by enough Pokemon that we need only one or two Pokemon extra to back us up to back Gyarados and CAP in order for them to do anything together. We seem to be working on the premise that CAP can have a garbage match-up against a ton of different Pokemon and still be considered good enough for OU simply off the back of our partner, and that isn't the way OU works. At this point, we've already given it the typing to do what we want it to do. At this point, we need to start thinking about what will make a player look at this thing and not consider it Ambipom tier.

 

[Bughouse]

The long answer is Storm Drain which makes us a hard counter to 2 of the best mons in OU plus many others, a resistance to Electric which makes us a reliable switch in to Thundurus, a lack of a SR weakness, a usable second STAB that makes us not set-up bait for things like Char-X, Clefable, and that can prevent many other things from switching in easily, like Latios, Kyurem-B or even Mega Venusaur, and an immunity to Toxic.

The short answer btw is just Storm Drain as that ability alone is worth it.

 

[NumberCruncher]

The long answer is Storm Drain which makes us a hard counter to 2 of the best mons in OU plus many others, a resistance to Electric which makes us a reliable switch in to Thundurus, a lack of a SR weakness, a usable second STAB that makes us not set-up bait for things like Char-X, Clefable, and that can prevent many other things from switching in easily, like Latios, Kyurem-B or even Mega Venusaur, and an immunity to Toxic.

The short answer btw is just Storm Drain as that ability alone is worth it.

I'm going to have to assume here you mean Azumarill and Rotom-W, since Greninja hard counters us with this speed stat. That's a fair enough assertion, but Magenzone does the exact same thing. The important thing to note about that Pokemon is that it isn't OU. We want something that is OU. Also, how does Poison typing prevent Kyurem-Black and Latios when from coming in? Latios still resists that, and Kyurem-B is still bulky enough to take normal efficient moves.

 

[Deck Knight]

Brief update:

On the counters list: You cannot and will not be able to turn everything on that list into a counter. Greninja and Starmie are NOT counters because STAB Thunderbolt from any of the SpA stats being considered *will* OHKO.

On speed: As I see it there are a few key Speeds -
100: Ties with Zard X and Gard
101: Ties with Landorus, beats the above.
102: Ties with Garchomp, beats the above.
108: Ties with Keldeo, beats the above.
110: Ties with Latios / Latias, beats the above.
115: Ties with Starmie, beats the above.
116: Beats all the above with +Spe Nature, ties Landorus and outruns Zard and Gard without Nature.
122: " " Ties with Greninja, outspeeds Manectric before Mega Evolution without nature.
126: " " Ties Talonflame, outspeeds Latios/Latias without nature.
127+: Beats all of the above + Talonflame.

And of course if you want to go higher, just keep adding stuff to the list. I think an argument can be made for any of these speeds, because again it is *impossible* to make everything on our threats list threatening. Some of those Pokemon are already checks at best. What you should focus on is what you want to lure, and you can even argue you'd prefer to lure Choice Scarf Ground types as your reliable counters because that would make M-Gyara's life that much easier when setting up.

Spreads:

P3DS: Doesn't conform to BSR limit.

Number Cruncher: Very well thought out on HP and offenses. A good higher speed spread.

capefeather: Excellent overall, My only question would be if you think having relatively easy access to 101 HP Subs makes CAP unlikely to lure in
Chansey, or if you think Chansey is generally irrelevant anyway.

HealNDeal: Looks like a good start, flesh it out a little more.

Qwilfish: A solid mid-speed entry. It should be noted that Mega Maw will be in the Playtest, though.

Psychic Daryl: doesn't conform to BSR limit.

wh0sy0urpapa: Another good spread, I don't consider it BSR abuse because it doesn't force speed ties with anything in 110.

Dragonblaze: Explain your Speed and why it's important.

Everyone else needs a little bit more time to flesh theirs out.

 

[WhiteShadow052]

FINAL SUBMISSION

MY FIRST ONE

HP: 80
ATK: 80
DEF: 75
SP. A: 120
SP. D: 75
SPE: 100
BST: 530

PT: 111.38863 (Green)
ST: 112.98075 (Green)
PS: 126.10629 (Light Blue)
SS: 194.57574 (Dark Blue)
BSR: 294.10842 (Light Blue)

I wanted this pokemon to be average, with a boost to its special attack and speed.

HP: I wanted something that wouldn't get OHKOed but would not last forever because that would just be cheap. It's a similar thing with Defence and Special Defence.

Attack: Lots of electric and poison type moves are special, but just in case someone wants to surprise his or her opponent, he or she can make it physical.

Defence: Just average, so it probably wouldn't get OHKOed by an earthquake (I just did the calc with a garchomp at max attack (245% or so...)

Special Attack: I wanted it to be a powerful special sweeper, but I wanted to keep it in control. 2HKO on mega gyarados at max special defence is thunder is used. (no assault vest.)

Special Defence: I wanted it to be able to survive a Future sight attack. (Probably not possible considering the earthquake calc.)

Speed: I wanted it to be fast and be able to do something before it dies. Slower than alot of things though.

I'm sorry if this is terrible, but I thought I could try.

 

[Empress]

Thanks Deck! Provided nobody else gives me constructive feedback, I will likely mark my spread as final soon. Now onto some comments of my own.
NOTE: This is only my personal feedback. If you disagree with it, then feel free to leave your spread as is.

Salt: I like this spread; it beats what we want and loses to what we want. Though I understand the reasoning behind 133 Sp. Attack, I fear that it may be crossing the threshold for this CAP simply turning into a Special nuke. It's up to you to decide how important it is to one-shot Mega Gardevoir.

P3DS: Your BSR is over the maximum limit, so this spread cannot be slated as is. Nonetheless, the 106 Speed is important to beat Mega Pinsir, but don't worry about Mienshao; it's not relevant in OU as of now. Some more time with the damage calculator would help you justify your Defense and Sp. Defense as well. Though you tell us that we live attacks such as Talonflame's Flare Blitz, you need to show us with the calculations.

srk1214: I'm actually not the biggest fan of losing to Landorus-I, as it often carries Focus Blast to mess with us if we Mega Evolve. The Speed tie with Mega Gardevoir is scary as well, as we want to dish out some damage before she can Psyshock/Psychic us. The Sp. Attack and the bulk both appear to be fine, though. I also like that all the stats are divisible by 5- though that does not affect the spread in any way, it is aesthetically-pleasing.

NumberCruncher: Instantly I can see that the Speed is too high. Remember that we want to lose to Greninja and Starmie, so outspeeding them is a no-no. The reasoning behind your low HP stat makes sense, as it encourages support from Gyarados' teammates, and I agree that we should lose to Chansey. I need to see more reasoning for the 90 Sp. Defense, though, as it appears your spread is one of, if not the, most specially frail so far. Also, Zapdos is not a hard counter, as we hit him neutrally with Sludge Wave.

capefeather: I hope you got my warning about your PS being too low. In any case, I don't know how important it is to inflict higher recoil on Talonflame if we can tank it and kill it with Thunderbolt anyway. I also feel that we should lose to Chansey, and having 114 HP gives us the opportunity (but not necessarily the incentive) to beat her. The Speed and Sp. Attack are fine, though.

HeaLnDeaL: The Speed is too high and the Sp. Attack too low. Expert Belt isn't really a viable item as is, so I encourage you to try the calculations again with a higher Sp. Attack stat and with no boosting item. Similar to the concerns I have with NumberCruncher's Speed, do you really want to be able to beat Greninja and Starmie? I understand that you want to outspeed Talonflame, but it doesn't really matter if we can tank a hit from it and kill it back with a Thunderbolt. I look forward to your future update, because I'm not sure what I see here yet.

Qwilphish: I disagree that Keldeo is good setup bait, as he threatens us if we've Mega Evolved with Secret Sword, and can land a Scald burn on us as well. I do love the justifications for the Defenses, though, and you explain very well why we should have little to no incentive to run HP Ice on our CAP. The Sp. Attack is not abusively high and it does what we want, so hats off to you for showing some restraint. Also, to make the BST cleaner, I would drop Attack to 64 or raise it to 69.

Psychic Daryl: No… just… no.

Dragonblaze052: I believe you should run some calculations with something other than a Life Orb, as we should have the incentive to run other items as well. Though you haven't justified your Speed, it's clear what you are going for- outspeeding Thundurus. I do need to see some Thundurus calculations, however. The bulk is fine, as it wins against Talonflame and loses against what it should.

Whew! That's a lot of feedback. Will do some more tomorrow.

 

[FireArrow]

Remember guys, the things we want to counter are subsidiary to the things we want to bait. That's the portion of this that actually coincides with our concept, beating Gyarados's counters is just a bonus.

Feedback wise, I was hoping to see some slower but more powerful spreads. The closest thing to that is Psychic Daryl's...

 

[NumberCruncher]

The CAP has a Fairy resistance, a Toxic immunity, a Poison resistance, a Water immunity, an Electric resistance, lack of Rock and Ice weaknesses and therefore lack of SR weakness, and Poison STAB to deal with Grass and Fairy-types, while also being 4x weak to Ground moves and 2x weak to Psychic moves, unlike Zapdos which is immune to Ground and neutral to Psychic. This means that the CAP can actually switch into Pokemon such as Keldeo, Rotom-W, CM Clefable, and Thundurus, that Zapdos can't, while Zapdos can switch into Pokemon such as Landorus, Latias, and Earthquake Mega Pinsir, that the CAP can't. Furthermore, how can you be talking about the CAP having a garbage matchup vs most of OU when the CAP already beats 3 out of 5 S rank Pokemon (Azumarill, Keldeo, and Thundurus) and many Pokemon from A rank, such as Clefable, Ferrothorn, Rotom-W, Mega Scizor, Skarmory, Mandibuzz, and Breloom. Finally, we don't even know yet if the CAP will have 125 SpA and 100 Speed, it could easily have 90 Speed and 135 SpA which makes it even more different, so cut the drama.

Gyarados is already going to be on a team with Heal Bell Chansey, so Toxic was never a problem to begin with. Everything packing a Rock move packs a Ground move as well, so coupled with the fact Zapdos still gets Roost, he's still at the advantage here. Zapdos can switch into literally every pokemon you listed except for Keldeo, which CAP can't switch into because the moment it takes an Icy Wind, that opens the field for a slew of Fighting types to counter CAP. We also can't switch into Thudurus, because we can at max 2HKO it, while Thundurus can 3HKO us and has better speed than we do. Heck, Breloom can still beat us if it packs a Substitute set. Zapdos is strictly better against Ferrothorn, and Skarmory, and Mandibuzz, and Mega Scizor. Rotom-W can still Trick an Choice item onto us, which completely invalidates us as a threat, because both our STAB options leave us open to free switches from Pokemon immune to our STAB (Thundurus-T, Heatran, and Excadrill being extremely dangerous example). Clefable is the only pokemon you've listed that this actually hard beats at this point (Sylveon also by the same token, along with Azumarill). But there are still better Pokemon on OU for just carrying a Poison/Steel move. A couple can even do that while countering some of our threats better than Zapdos can.

I don't mind trying to sell the CAP on doing the job of two Pokemon, but not quite as well as the job would have gotten done with two Pokemon, but you actually have to make it so that this Pokemon does its job. This is a Pokemon who's Speed tier (when forced into 100 Speed) and defensive tier (based on the constraints already assigned) make us unsuitable for switching into things the we can't 100% guarantee will attempt a Water move or Toxic. That's going to force us more into revenge killer design space or set-up lead design space, but with stats and typing not really befitting either role. Having to sack a Pokemon in order to get CAP in safely means we've already gone from having to lose one Pokemon to get Gyarados set up to needing two Pokemon for that job, at which point we're already doing our job worse than other Pokemon.

 

[Salt]

Just deleted my spread because I don't really have time to devote to tweaking everything. But I am gonna quickly comment on the speed issue.

We should be at least 101 Speed, the reason being that Mega Gardevoir is a threat to us and Gyarados/Mega Gyarados. With absolute maximum PT (assuming an offensive set for CAP 19), Gardevoir still OHKOs us with Psyshock. There's absolutely nothing stopping Gardevoir from coming in on CAP on a free switch and killing it, which is the exact opposite of what we're trying to achieve with the concept. The concept calls for a lose/lose situation in which CAP dying results in our set-up sweeper getting a free turn, but since almost nothing wants to even try setting up on Mega Gardevoir, she can basically kill us for free if given the chance. Having CAP be faster than Gardevoir completely turns this scenario on its head; Gardevoir is not going to come in on something faster with a STAB Poison attack that could potentially kill it. In my opinion, not allowing Gardevoir to beat us is worth only being beaten by Landorus 50% of the time. Also, as a last bit of info, using exactly 101 still lets us get beaten by Garchomp.

EDIT: Gonna address Pwnemon's earlier post about Gardevoir specifically:

Let's talk about Speed. I also am a fan of having 100, not 101, speed. The reason is simple: no numbskull is going to risk their Gardevoir on a speed tie, the thing is a fricking nuke and carries games. With only a speed tie, we'll still force it out 98% of the time (the other 2% when the opponent is in a place where they must risk the tie). However, people also don't want to risk their Landorus on a speed tie. Since we don't want to force Landorus out, we should make it safe to stay in and KO, which means not speed tying. (I'm not saying that 100 is the only speed which can be justified, just that if you're submitting exactly 101, I think 100 is a better number).

Also i think the concern with outspeeding Gardevoir way overblown. It's not like we can switch into it; any team with CAP19 and Gyara is going to need a better Gardevoir counter anyways. So don't feel constrained to "beating Gardevoir" because yeah lol thats not really realistic.

I'd rather err on the side of "beat Gardevoir 100% of the time" than "hope that we win a speed tie". Assuming CAP 19 is as valuable to us as Gardevoir is to the opponent, we probably won't want to risk the speed tie either. Plus, if we run HP Fire, which is needed to beat certain mons, there won't even be a speed tie. The same applies to the Landorus situation; neither person is going to attempt to go through with the 1v1 scenario if they need CAP/Lando alive. It's safer if we have 101 Speed because potentially losing to Gardevoir is more costly than losing the ability to have Landorus beat us.

 

[alexwolf]

Gyarados is already going to be on a team with Heal Bell Chansey, so Toxic was never a problem to begin with. Everything packing a Rock move packs a Ground move as well, so coupled with the fact Zapdos still gets Roost, he's still at the advantage here. Zapdos can switch into literally every pokemon you listed except for Keldeo, which CAP can't switch into because the moment it takes an Icy Wind, that opens the field for a slew of Fighting types to counter CAP. We also can't switch into Thudurus, because we can at max 2HKO it, while Thundurus can 3HKO us and has better speed than we do. Heck, Breloom can still beat us if it packs a Substitute set. Zapdos is strictly better against Ferrothorn, and Skarmory, and Mandibuzz, and Mega Scizor. Rotom-W can still Trick an Choice item onto us, which completely invalidates us as a threat, because both our STAB options leave us open to free switches from Pokemon immune to our STAB (Thundurus-T, Heatran, and Excadrill being extremely dangerous example). Clefable is the only pokemon you've listed that this actually hard beats at this point (Sylveon also by the same token, along with Azumarill). But there are still better Pokemon on OU for just carrying a Poison/Steel move. A couple can even do that while countering some of our threats better than Zapdos can.

I don't mind trying to sell the CAP on doing the job of two Pokemon, but not quite as well as the job would have gotten done with two Pokemon, but you actually have to make it so that this Pokemon does its job. This is a Pokemon who's Speed tier (when forced into 100 Speed) and defensive tier (based on the constraints already assigned) make us unsuitable for switching into things the we can't 100% guarantee will attempt a Water move or Toxic. That's going to force us more into revenge killer design space or set-up lead design space, but with stats and typing not really befitting either role. Having to sack a Pokemon in order to get CAP in safely means we've already gone from having to lose one Pokemon to get Gyarados set up to needing two Pokemon for that job, at which point we're already doing our job worse than other Pokemon.

I don't even get what are you arguing for here, and how can you make those ridiculous claims. Gyarados is going to be on a team with Heall Bell Chansey? Who said this? And why is this statement relevant anyway? Zapdos is not a good switch-in to Rotom-W because Volt Switch + SR damage rack up very quickly, Zapdos can't switch into CM Clefable because it just becomes set up bait, and Thundurus obviously 2HKOes. Also, you do know that the statement ''Thundurus 3HKOes CAP while the CAP can only 2HKO back'' is bullshit right? You don't know the CAP's stat spread, its held item, and its EV spread, yet you make claims like this. And the CAP can't switch into Keldeo because Icy Wind lets a slew of Fighting-types counter CAP? What sense am i supposed to make out of this? CAP switches into Keldeo's Icy Wind, and then Keldeo is forced out, so there you go, Keldeo has been countered, or the Fighting-type that wants to come in must take a strong hit first. Why would a Fighting-type want to switch into the CAP in the first place is beyond me though.

If you want people to take you seriously don't make ridiculous claims and be sure that you know what you are talking about. In this case, don't ignore or try to dispute how the CAP deals with very important and dominant Pokemon that Zapdos can't, such as Rotom-W, Keldeo, Thundurus, and even Azumarill (CB Play Rough 2HKOes Zapdos while Zapdos can't OHKO back, and good luck Roost spamming for a Play Rough miss if Zapdos came in with SR up), and also how the CAP has Poison STAB to hit many relevant targets that Zapdos can't, such as Latios, Latias, Mega Venusaur, Mega Charizard X, and Kyurem-B. Finally, we don't even know the CAP's movepool, yet here you are jumping the gun.

Salt you realize that there are many Pokemon able to beat our two Pokemon core right, not just Mega Gardevoir? There is Latios, Latias, Psychic Thundurus, Kyurem-B, Starmie with Thunderbolt, Assault Vest Raikou, and probably more. However, unlike most of those Pokemon (except from Starmie), Mega Gardevoir can't switch into neither Gyarados nor the CAP, making it a much smaller issue than it seems to be. And as i already said, every good team needs one good answer to Mega Gardevoir, or multiple shaky ones, and the CAP is neither a good nor a shaky answer to Mega Gardy because it is OHKOed by Psyshock. So, you will have to add a check to Mega Gardy regardless if the CAP outspeeds it or not.

Mega Gardevoir is kinda irrelevant to the goal we want to achieve really. We want to force the opponent into a situation where the CAP punches a hole or they have to bring in something that Mega Gyarados can take advantage of. And Mega Gardevoir doesn't fit somewhere in this situation, because it doesn't want to switch into the CAP. We are not trying to make an unbeatable two Pokemon core where the two Pokemon have the best synergy ever. The concept is not ''Perfect Mate'' guys, don't forget this.

 

[jas61292]

We should be at least 101 Speed, the reason being that Mega Gardevoir is a threat to us and Gyarados/Mega Gyarados. With absolute maximum PT (assuming an offensive set for CAP 19), Gardevoir still OHKOs us with Psyshock. There's absolutely nothing stopping Gardevoir from coming in on CAP on a free switch and killing it, which is the exact opposite of what we're trying to achieve with the concept. The concept calls for a lose/lose situation in which CAP dying results in our set-up sweeper getting a free turn, but since almost nothing wants to even try setting up on Mega Gardevoir, she can basically kill us for free if given the chance. Having CAP be faster than Gardevoir completely turns this scenario on its head; Gardevoir is not going to come in on something faster with a STAB Poison attack that could potentially kill it. In my opinion, not allowing Gardevoir to beat us is worth only being beaten by Landorus 50% of the time. Also, as a last bit of info, using exactly 101 still lets us get beaten by Garchomp.

I personally take the exact opposite view here, and its mostly because I think that Gardevoir is being highly overvalued here. Our goal is to make a Pokemon that draws in the things that Gyarados can set up on. Our goal is not to beat the things that scare Gyarados. The fact is, Gardevoir cannot switch into us at all. It risks getting hit by a STAB super effective move, and it is already frail. As far as I am concerned, Gardevoir is honestly an irrelevant threat when it comes to this concept, and I would have absolutely no qualms about going even sub 100 for speed. However, as Pwnemon mentioned, should we sit exactly at 100, we still put ourselves in the advantageous position in that matchup. Gardevoir will be the opponents Mega and their offensive powerhouse. They are not likely going to risk it in a 50-50 unless they really have to.

With that said though, I think the former point was the more important one luring set up opportunities is our goal, NOT defeating Gyarados's counters. We have an entire team for the latter, but only one Pokemon that will be purely focused on the former, so getting that job right is absolutely paramount.

 

[P3DS]

P3DS: Your BSR is over the maximum limit, so this spread cannot be slated as is. Nonetheless, the 106 Speed is important to beat Mega Pinsir, but don't worry about Mienshao; it's not relevant in OU as of now. Some more time with the damage calculator would help you justify your Defense and Sp. Defense as well. Though you tell us that we live attacks such as Talonflame's Flare Blitz, you need to show us with the calculations.

I made a late edit to the defence, and I was going to a bit more today, but my internet had been bad. It is still a WIP and it actually says on the second line that I intend to add the calcs; I haven't forgot about them.

 

[capefeather]

If it were just Mega Gardevoir then I'd agree with the equivocation being made between it and other, mostly faster threats that threaten the pair. I myself have mentioned Earthquake Pinsir and Terrakion in my submission (also I'm not sure I'd consider Lati@s quite as decisive a threat to the pair because Mega Gyarados survives Life Orb Draco Meteor, but whatever). However, Charizard is also in that Speed tier (there are others, but either they are checked by CAP 19 or they aren't very good at stopping a healthy Gyarados). I generally agree that there may be too much focus on Gardevoir in particular, but it's not the only possible concern for at least tying with the 100s, and in fact I kind of consider Mega Charizard Y the most important threat here. It's also not so much the number of threats but the variety of threats to the core that concerns me. Mega Charizard X, Mega Charizard Y and Mega Gardevoir are all very different from each other, so being slower than them (regardless of Hidden Power shenanigans) would ultimately cause the core to require significantly more support.

As for 100 versus 101, honestly I think that the biggest factor is which decision we want the builder to make. Going with 100 potentially means that the player would have to choose between tying with the 100s and breaking Ferrothorn and Magnezone. Going with 101 is the same, except the builder is choosing whether to tie with Landorus instead.

 

[nyttyn]

I personally take the exact opposite view here, and its mostly because I think that Gardevoir is being highly overvalued here. Our goal is to make a Pokemon that draws in the things that Gyarados can set up on. Our goal is not to beat the things that scare Gyarados. The fact is, Gardevoir cannot switch into us at all. It risks getting hit by a STAB super effective move, and it is already frail. As far as I am concerned, Gardevoir is honestly an irrelevant threat when it comes to this concept, and I would have absolutely no qualms about going even sub 100 for speed. However, as Pwnemon mentioned, should we sit exactly at 100, we still put ourselves in the advantageous position in that matchup. Gardevoir will be the opponents Mega and their offensive powerhouse. They are not likely going to risk it in a 50-50 unless they really have to.

With that said though, I think the former point was the more important one luring set up opportunities is our goal, NOT defeating Gyarados's counters. We have an entire team for the latter, but only one Pokemon that will be purely focused on the former, so getting that job right is absolutely paramount.

quote for emphasis.

gardevoir is a frail sack of frailness, even on the specially defensive side, and gets pretty brutalized by STAB SE. Combined with a potential speed tie, and no person in their right mind would swap voir in. especially since the matchup itself is very much a 50/50 even if both mons are in, since voir's other STAB (moonblast) gets tanked by CAP19.

we already do more then well enough against it imo.

HP:45
Atk:90
Def:110
SpA:190
SpD:120
Spe:45
BST:600
Well?

Whoa, so many likes. :)

600 BST? Sounds like a lovely idea.

 

[Deck Knight]

Consider this your 30 hour warning to finalize submissions. I'll close this out when I get back from choir practice tomorrow at about 9:15 EST, and I'll discuss with Pwnemon in the interim time about slating options. Remember to mark your submission Final Submission to qualify!

 

[Elite Lord Sigma]

I have finalized my submission back on the first page.

 

[FMD]

Final Submission
80 / 70 / 96 / 125 / 75 / 109

BST: 555

SS: 212.3
PS: 113.9
PT: 141.9
ST: 112.9
BSR: 317.4


Offensive Calculations

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252 SpA Life Orb CAP Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Amoonguss: 235-278 (54.3 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Expert Belt CAP Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 410-485 (104 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt CAP Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 396-468 (100.5 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt CAP Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 432-514 (109.6 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb CAP Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 235-278 (78.5 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt CAP Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 283-334 (102.1 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt CAP Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Skarmory: 346-406 (103.5 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb CAP Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 277-328 (91.1 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb CAP Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 380-452 (106.1 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb CAP Icy Wind vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 354-416 (99.1 - 116.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt CAP Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 374-442 (115.7 - 136.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb CAP Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 234-278 (64.8 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Defensive Calculations

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252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def CAP: 122-144 (40.3 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def CAP: 244-288 (80.7 - 95.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD CAP: 422-498 (139.7 - 164.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Ground vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD CAP: 496-584 (164.2 - 193.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def CAP: 768-904 (254.3 - 299.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def CAP: 492-580 (162.9 - 192%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def CAP: 144-171 (47.6 - 56.6%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO

Speed is set to 109 to lose to the physically frail Psychic types at 110 (Latios, Latias and Espeon) as well as Adamant Talonflame. This is still high enough to let us outspeed Terrakion, Mega Pinsir and non-Scarf Garchomp as each of these poses a great risk to both the CAP and to our sweeper.

This set cleanly OHKOs Clefable, Slowbro, Keldeo and Mega Gardevoir with its STABs, doing the same to Skarmory if Sturdy has been broken. Assuming a Storm Drain boost, it gains a 50% chance to OHKO physically defensive Rotom. With Hidden Power of the appropriate types, it also gains a OHKO on either Quagsire or non-Scarf Garchomp. Hidden Power Fire deals enough damage to prevent Excadrill from being able to set up on it, making it much easier for Gyarados to handle.
Defensively, the CAP would avoid being revenged by Talonflame's Brave Bird unless it was already below 50% HP. Furthermore, the only versions of Keldeo to threaten the CAP would be either Assault Vest or Choice Scarf with Hidden Power Ground, neither of which affects Mega Gyarados in the least.

 

[Empress]

I made a late edit to the defence, and I was going to a bit more today, but my internet had been bad. It is still a WIP and it actually says on the second line that I intend to add the calcs; I haven't forgot about them.

Glad to see you edited everything in. Much better now!
One more thing though: raise Attack to 59 or drop it to 54 to make the BST cleaner.

 

[NumberCruncher]

Final Submisson
HP: 57
Attack: 60
Defense: 115
Special Attack: 137
Special Defense: 94
Speed: 102
BST: 565

So basically, the big change between this set is that the previous list worked from the premise that Modest would be the de-facto nature, since it didn't hit hard enough without it. It has since been pointed out that the Speed invites unwanted Timid sets that could be problematic, so I flipped my thinking and worked assuming a Timid nature. Thundurus-T rofl-stomps a fair number of Pokemon on the Gyarados team, and with Psychic it skunks CAP as well. Thus we should at least outspeed that. 137 with Timid kills about the same things we can kill with 125 and a Modest. This left me with 4 extra BST points to go, which I stuck in Special Defense, since wh0sy0urpapa pointed out that was a tad on the low side.

For justification on HP/DEF/SPDEF

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Why are his Defensive stats so high and his Health only 57, when there are plenty of combinations of HP/Def/Sp. Def that accomplish the same result?
There are a few reasons for this actually. First of all, most Gyarados teams want a Cleric to get rid of statuses, and most Clerics have Wish. This means we can make CAP more synergistic with what that team already tries to do to help it integrate better. Since Chansey is a set-up opportunity for Gyarados, this also leads to a situation where a Chansey with Seismic Toss is in a good position to take out CAP, rather than being a useless fat blob. In addition, it's typing also sets us up for Parabolic Charge in the movepool, and if CAP gets it, we want low health in order to take advantage of incremental life-gain.

The reason it's 57 specifically is because if it gets 4 EV in HP, it's Health is 256, which is cleanly divisible by 16 for the Black Sludge buff if that ends up being his best item.

The 115 Def. is so that Talonflame can't 2HKO it with Brave Bird, and the 90 Sp. Def. is so Zapdos isn't a hard counter.

EDIT: Forgot BSR totals
SS: 229.21 (Amazing)
ST:114.47 (Above Average)
PS: 96.15 (Below Average)
PT: 140.00 (Good)
BSR: 316.67 (Very Good)