Ladder STABmons (the old one)

[Throbulator36]

I'd personally say that if OU deems mawilite broken then it is a lot more broken here

 

[skies]

I'd personally say that if OU deems mawilite broken then it is a lot more broken here

This is very incorrect because STABmons and OU are completely different metagames with different threats. For example, in OU Sableye is not used very much, but in STABmons it's used all the time. Comparing apples to oranges here, they're really not alike.

 

[Monte Cristo]

This is very incorrect because STABmons and OU are completely different metagames with different threats. For example, in OU Sableye is not used very much, but in STABmons it's used all the time. Comparing apples to oranges here, they're really not alike.

I mean, unless there really are clues or examples of the metagames adaption towards keeping it or booting it we can't really make a move in this scenario. The best case would be to suspect it, gather more info, secure more evidence and make a proper decision

 

[EV]

Right now the council is talking about our current foundation for the banlist. We're either going to:

• Streamline the banlist and follow OU's lead with the option to add our own (so Sylveon and Porygon-Z will stay banned and Darkrai, the Deoxys formes, Aegislash, and Mega Mawile go away because they're Ubers in standard).
• Keep our current system of "picking and choosing" what to ban/unban while using OU's banlist as a roadmap, but not a rule.

I brought this up to foster consistency and make it easier for new players to learn STABmons. This is not a regular suspect test/vote (like Sylveon and PZ) because we don't all believe the Pokemon that may leave are broken. Rather, it's an effort to simplify the rules. Please provide your thoughts, if any, about the proposed change or why you think nothing should happen.

 

[Mr155551]

i say keep aegi and darkrai but ban mega maw and the deo forms

 

[YO FACE!!!!!!]

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Pin Missile (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 192-225 (48.7 - 57.1%) -- approx. 32.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

or

252 Atk Life Orb Scizor Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 204-242 (51.7 - 61.4%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Should really use either of the above two, as Attack Order lacks the power to beat Quagsire.

252 Atk Life Orb Scizor Attack Order vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 153-183 (38.8 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

There could be a crit...

 

[Adonzo]

There could be a crit...

you really want to rely on a 12.5% crit chance to get a not even guaranteed 2HKO unless you crit again?

252 Atk Life Orb Scizor Attack Order vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire on a critical hit: 231-274 (58.6 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[tegrof19]

There could be a crit...

Pin Missile has even more reliability then since it can crit on any of its hits.

 

[YO FACE!!!!!!]

you really want to rely on a 12.5% crit chance to get a not even guaranteed 2HKO unless you crit again?

252 Atk Life Orb Scizor Attack Order vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire on a critical hit: 231-274 (58.6 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

ok. That's too bad though.

 

[skies]

I'm going to post a mini-RMT in this thread about a QuickPass team I created, so feel free to steal it or do whatever with it! :]

​

Teambuilding/ Team Analysis:

1. I began with thinking about a Spikes setter so I could easily wear down bulkier teams, break sashes, and wear down forced switches as well. I chose Garchomp for this reason because it hits a nice Speed tier and has a cool typing. Its ability also punishes Fake Out users, which I quite like. Stealth Rock was an option on the set, but luring in and smashing Skarmory with Fire Blast has proven to be much more beneficial. Garchomp seemed like a natural fit because I already knew I'd be involving a DragMag + Fairy core somewhere on this team.
2. I knew I'd be using QuickPass with Scolipede, so it was an obvious fit. But I had to find a Pokemon with decent synergy and could appreciate the boosts. My first thought was Clefable, who enjoys every single boost it gets and can blast apart teams with Stored Power. Clefable's immunity to hazards and also Life Orb recoil was just great, so of course it made the team.
3. To complete the DragMag + Fairy, I needed the Mag. Magnezone got fit on because of its great synergy and its ability to abuse the boosts as well. I decided to opt for Magic Coat because of this one time a Mega Venusaur Stall team kept using Toxic Spikes lol, so it's a must :]. It's also fairly strong. I do run Zap Plate to increase Thunderbolt's power while mimicking a Choice Specs to lure in Ground-types and smash them with Flash Cannon boosted by Analytic. Very cool.
4. I noticed Keldeo blasts through the core with a Choice item, so why not try something new and weird that nobody else has been using: Altaria. Altaria sponges all of its hits except Icy Wind, which anything else can stomach really. Even Water Spout is easy to take on. From there it can cripple it with Glare and beat it with either Judgment or Oblivion Wing to eliminate Keldeo for the team.
5. Finally, a Diggersby counter. Gengar was picked because The Eevee General brought it up and I thought it was a very neat idea. I'm using a Destiny Bond set for any Wild Charge Diggersby and to take down anything it wants really. Very cool and strong Pokemon!

That's basically all you need to know, set up with Scolipede, pass, hopefully win. It takes some getting used to, but it really works and is quite strong. Always be sure to either a.) take out Sableye or b.) setup a Substitute as it comes in, as it can give you a hassle. So yeah, go out and play with this :].

 

[YO FACE!!!!!!]

you really want to rely on a 12.5% crit chance to get a not even guaranteed 2HKO unless you crit again?

252 Atk Life Orb Scizor Attack Order vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire on a critical hit: 231-274 (58.6 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

You can always just switch out Scizor and switch-in mega venusaur.

 

[EV]

1760 Stats for August
| 1 | Diggersby | 57.06582% |
| 2 | Heatran | 39.18467% |
| 3 | Tyranitar | 33.40569% |
| 4 | Sableye | 31.23858% |
| 5 | Thundurus | 26.93351% |
| 6 | Landorus-Therian | 22.56911% |
| 7 | Skarmory | 20.88733% |
| 8 | Scizor | 18.72713% |
| 9 | Charizard | 18.05101% |
| 10 | Chansey | 17.61017% |
| 11 | Cloyster | 16.50219% |
| 12 | Slowking | 15.22451% |
| 13 | Espeon | 14.76503% |
| 14 | Aegislash | 13.71421% |
| 15 | Gliscor | 13.57062% |
| 16 | Amoonguss | 13.28763% |
| 17 | Togekiss | 12.16396% |
| 18 | Jirachi | 11.74300% |
| 19 | Landorus | 10.74704% |
| 20 | Keldeo | 10.69646% |

Ruminations

• The 4 Alpha ranked (S rank) Pokemon are the top 4 used. I am not surprised.
• Keldeo is only #20. I am surprised.
• Amoonguss>Venusaur was only a matter of time. It's probably because Amoonguss and Slowking make a great Regen core.
• Setup is no longer king. On this list, only a handful are particularly good at it, and one of the most threatening (Talonflame) isn't even here.
• Gliscor surprised me, considering Landorus is already on the list (twice).
• The Prankster:Defiant ratio on Thundurus is 87:13. I've been favoring Prankster more lately, but I honestly did not expect the split to be so extreme.
• Silk Scarf is the #1 most used item on Diggersby. Did the Victim of the Weak post have anything to do with that? Also, Smack Down still hasn't shown up yet. Use it. Seriously.
• w0rd actually got Shift Gear Heatran to stick. It is on 20% of Heatran sets now. (They're probably all word's anyway.)
• Diamond Storm isn't listed for Tyranitar? What?
• The Speed creep on Skarmory is real. The most used set is running 32. Second most used is running 36. lol
• Scizor favors Superpower over Bug STAB. Heatran needs to be very careful switching in. King's Shield can't even guarantee the -2 drop either because Scizor can just Shift Gear again. Total mind games.
• Zard-Y:Zard-X ratio is 67:32. Earthquake is used on 52% of any Charizard set. Again, this is because of Heatran.
• Cloyster has officially become a one-trick pony:
  • Icicle Spear 100.000% | | Water Shuriken 99.999% | | Shell Smash 99.948% | | Rock Blast 99.895% (King's Rock 87.854% used)
• So has Slowking:
  • Scald 100.000% | | Future Sight 99.994% | | Psystrike 99.646% | | Mirror Coat 97.936% (Assault Vest 99.994% used)
• Espeon has proved its worth for a second generation. It's a fantastic Sableye check, even if it runs Foul Play, but it hates Knock Off considering most carry a Plate of some flavor.
• The standard Gliscor set is the same one from OU pretty much. I'm surprised it didn't take on a Spike or Defog role here. Also, I don't see any use of an offensive spread because Brave Bird pairs really well with Poison Heal. Like Skarmory, the Speed creep is real again.
• Spore isn't listed for Amoonguss. And to think people call STABmons a Spore-fest.
• Shift Grace Jirachi has made a comeback, though I don't see Heart Stamp.
• Correct me if I'm wrong, but Sleep Talk Lando-I is another of w0rd 's marks on the ladder.
• People have given up on coverage with Keldeo it would seem since the top used moves are either Water or Fighting, all at 50% or more. Vacuum Wave? Really?

 

[Kit Kasai]

W0rd: 32 speed Skarmory
Me: 36 speed Skarmory
>;)

 

[canno]

1760 Stats for August
| 1 | Diggersby | 57.06582% |
| 2 | Heatran | 39.18467% |
| 3 | Tyranitar | 33.40569% |
| 4 | Sableye | 31.23858% |
| 5 | Thundurus | 26.93351% |
| 6 | Landorus-Therian | 22.56911% |
| 7 | Skarmory | 20.88733% |
| 8 | Scizor | 18.72713% |
| 9 | Charizard | 18.05101% |
| 10 | Chansey | 17.61017% |
| 11 | Cloyster | 16.50219% |
| 12 | Slowking | 15.22451% |
| 13 | Espeon | 14.76503% |
| 14 | Aegislash | 13.71421% |
| 15 | Gliscor | 13.57062% |
| 16 | Amoonguss | 13.28763% |
| 17 | Togekiss | 12.16396% |
| 18 | Jirachi | 11.74300% |
| 19 | Landorus | 10.74704% |
| 20 | Keldeo | 10.69646% |

Top half is very expected to be honest - nothing really stands out (I think people just assume Diamond Storm is still unreleased lel - it should be on every set tho. Best rock STAB). The lower half, however, is kind of odd. First of all, how the hell is Keldeo 20 while Cloyster is 11? I know that the King's Rock set is silly with its flinch stars, but its not that great much like Cloyster in normal OU hue. Also I'm assuming Jirachi is there for Future Sight + Doom Desire or something, but it confuses me too. Espeon is here to prove its not a bygone.

W0rd: 32 speed Skarmory
Me: 36 speed Skarmory
>;)

Time to run max speed Skarmory. Fuck all the speed creep ;)

 

[ellipse]

Things to note with these ratings:

• Only a handful of people were actually high enough to be weighted (I believe 1760 refers to your GLICKO-1, correct me if I'm wrong), with only 14 nicks at or above that number as of this posting. So sets from this specific list probably are skewed heavily to maybe one or two movesets(i.e. my shitty SubPunch TTar gave the 1760 one 13% chance of running Focus Punch, while unweighted gave it under 5%, also see and compare shift gear Tran: 20% to 8%).
• Furthermore, a good handful of players near or at the top of the ladder (those most likely to be weighted), often use a single team per alt so they can showcase it. I personally have never seen leafstorm use anything but the same skill link cloyster team (no hate, it's beaten me 2/3)

All this having been said, most of my analysis will be based on the weighted stats, unless otherwise noted.

On the topic of the actual numbers, Togekiss is really starting to catch on, probably since it's probably the best setup mon in the tier atm, able to 2HKO inveted sableye even through a topsy-turvy, can live revenge kill Diggersby, and can beat Heatran with aura sphere or transform Chansey with sub, and it's typing gives it an easy setup opportunity on somethings like Lando-T, or any grass type after spore has been used (or regardless if sub).

Something very interesting is that Jirachi, Slowking, Amoongus, Kangaskhan, and Stoutland all seem to be used exclusively by high rank players, with less than 200 actual battle appearnces by each, but still making the top 30. While I'm not surprised by any of the first three I named (Slowking and Amoongus create an amazingly underrated regen core, while Jirachi started to become more common (at least it seemed to me) as Togekiss got more usage), however Kanga and Stoutland really surprised me, as the allure of scrappy drum would seem like something that would attract a lot of people.

Another thing to note is that Skarmory is no longer everyones' favorite Diggersby stopper, with Lando-T actually beating it out this month, however from the looks of the sets, it seems like Skarm Gliscor, and Amoongus are the dedicated physical walls of choice.

Miscellaneous comments:

• Vacuum wave keldeo is legit. eevee, u hurt my feelings :[. But really, it allows you to check force cloyster to water shuriken, and check setup sweepers that are physically bulky/ resist normal.
• Even though I commented on it, I too am surprised by Gliscor. I honestly can't remember any
• Speed creep isn't truly "real" on Gliscor or Skarm. That's the default recommended spred for subtoxic gliscor, and used to be recommended for physically defensive skarm
• Iron Head > Zen Headbut > Heart stamp. IDEC if you get 60% from a psychic move finally, 60 bp sucks.
• No love for special Aegislash. Shadow ball at 25%, flash cannon and doom desire even lower
• Apparently SkarmChans cores are dead
• Approx. 74% of Sableye are OHKO'd by Taunt, especially prankster Taunt

Also, since they aren't posted anywhere:
1760 stats:http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/2014-08/stabmons-1760.0.txt
1630 stats:http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/2014-08/stabmons-1630.0.txt
unweighted stats:http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/2014-08/stabmons-0.0.txt

1760 movesets:http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/2014-08/moveset/stabmons-1760.0.txt
1630 movesets:http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/2014-08/moveset/stabmons-1630.0.txt
unweighted movesets:http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/2014-08/moveset/stabmons-0.0.txt

 

[EV]

Ellipse I wasn't saying Vacuum Wave is bad, just that I was surprised and intrigued. It was more like a "really, that works? huh."

Not only does Taunt OHKO most Sableye, it shuts down quite a lot, especially when you're trying to sweep. (That's true everywhere but really important here.) It's also great for shutting down Defog, which appears to be more popular than Rapid Spin. Tyranitar should run it on every set IMO though it struggles against Defog Lando-T.

Also I mentioned it earlier, but Prankster Thundurus w/ Taunt should really be used more. It was popular last gen but seems to have been overtaken by Defog or just straight up attacking. Thundurus is a good Prankster in general, with Roost too and the ever-gimmicky-but-hilarious-when-it-works Mirror Move.

I think the metagame has definitely backed away from hyper offense setup to heavy offense that relies on ridiculously powerful attacks. Setup is still there, don't get me wrong, but not as potent. As such, Sableye has fallen a bit, which might give setup a chance to come back. Hm.

Look at the top metagame play styles (10% or more):
weatherless...................56.77642%
offense.......................32.35269%
sand..........................31.45196%
balance.......................27.84513%
hyperoffense..................22.89172%
stall.........................14.23212%
sun...........................12.11338%
sandoffense...................10.93888%

 

[DinaIsha]

Diggersby | Raw count: 1872 | | Avg. weight: 0.0554142870022 | Abilities | | Huge Power 99.985% | | Pickup 0.015%

One of these things is not like the other.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Probably the good old "i forgot to change the ability" excuse lel

 

[ellipse]

Just noticed something interesting: From my knowledge through what I've heard, the OU cutoff for standard is that it appears in at least 1 out of 20 teams, or 5% usage. So in the month of August in STABmons, there would only be 30 members of the standard meta, which is 14 smaller than standard. Not exactly what kind of implications this has other than being more centralized, but I thought would put it out there.

EDIT: See below post, basically makes this entire post moot

 

[Adonzo]

3.41% (don't ask why this number as I do not know), which on unweighted stats would make the cutoff at 42. However, I believe standard metas are based on 1760 stats, which would place the cutoff at 35. Either way, the meta is not terribly active at the moment, and less players equals less variety in mons used and you end with up with a smaller "OU" size. This is true of any meta that doesn't get enough activity.

 

[Axurous]

Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash / Naive Nature
- Draco Meteor / Spacial Rend
- Aeroblast / Hurricane / Oblivion Wing
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake / Iron Tail / Roost

Any ideas for a better set?

 

[xJownage]

Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash / Naive Nature
- Draco Meteor / Spacial Rend
- Aeroblast / Hurricane / Oblivion Wing
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake / Iron Tail / Roost

Any ideas for a better set?

something not sableye weak, not base 100 speed, and not so fake out + espeed weak.

Ive thought about moxiemence for a while now, but even with oblivion wing its just too frail and slow to be all that good.

 

[EV]

The day has come. Should Diggersby be banned?

​

The council has re-organized itself, and we are currently taking up this topic. I wanted to share it with the community and maybe you can sway an undecided member or two. o0

• If you are in favor of banning a suspect, please provide examples of why they are unhealthy for the metagame with replays, calcs, anecdotes explaining their over-centralization, lack of true checks/counters, etc.
• If you are not in favor of a ban, please provide the examples of how they are reliably checked/countered by other Pokemon that can still function well in STABmons.

Discussions will last about a week. GL/HF

 

[yoman5]

Not sure if I'm pro or anti ban, but what about chesnaught?

 

[skies]

Not sure if I'm pro or anti ban, but what about chesnaught?

I'm right here? Watcha need?

• +2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 255-300 (67.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It's not a counter by any means and with a bit of wearing down then it's as good as dead. Plus, Chesnaught is really bad outside of granting access to Spikey Shield to other Grass-types :].