Battle Spot Community Create-A-Team: Triples [TEAM COMPLETE, IN TESTING STAGE]

[EnGarde]

ethan06 I've been using eggy emporium's version (essentially the same software, just...the one I had bookmarked on my computer, lol). The disadvantage of the eggy emporium's version is that you have to take a screenshot in order to share the team, where it looks like with yours you can share a direct link.

---

EDIT: Ninja'd by Age of Kings

I've been lurking for a while so that I could see where the convo was going, and to gauge other perspectives on this team. Finishing a team is so much harder than starting a team, because the last pokemon we choose will need to fill gaps left by other teammates. I understand MythTrainerInfinity's point about starting testing: that's the best way to identify the gaps that need to be filled, and we really have been theorymonning for a long while. I'm itching to start practicing with the team too.

However, I agree with Age of Kings: if we don't have an idea of what 6 pokemon (full sets + items) we will be using, then we could end up with 4+ different flavors (mine, AoK's, ethan's, MTI's, + everyone else that chooses to participate), and we won't be able to compare information easily between contributors, since each team will be different. If we start with a unified core team and build an experience base using this, we can more easily eliminate variances/outliers based on player's skill/experience level/playstyle. We can figure out what strategy works most consistently and where the trouble spots are. This is especially important for players like me, since my experience level is lower than others.

For example, I know I struggle with properly identifying / predicting around Trick Room teams in particular, so data (battle vids, descriptions of personal experience with the team, etc) that I would contribute would be skewed because of this, regardless of how prepared our team is for TR. A more experienced player, like MTI, could use better prediction and compensate if our proposed team has an exceptional weakness to TR, potentially skewing the data in the other direction. We collaborate here, and I describe my difficulty with TR, and MTE answers with how he was able to handle it.

If we are using the same team, then I could more easily learn something from our combined experiences, and we'd both have a better idea of the team's objective ability to handle TR. If we are using different flavors (talonflame vs. thundurus/tornadus, significantly different sets, etc), then it'd be much harder for me and others to compare information. Magnify this confusion over the 12 people who've commented on this thread, and the 4,201 people who've viewed this thread, and we'd quickly lose cohesion, grow frustrated, and lose interest in the project.

Once we start building community knowledge and understanding on a unified team core, we can start varying the sets in order to fix flaws identified in the original iteration and hone it into a truly fearsome showing on Battle Spot for the Smogon community. :)

At least, that's what I think.

---

Now, to the proposed pokemon:

I'm interested in thundurus. I'm more in favor of prankster vs. defiant, since it seems to have more of the stuff our team needs. However, I'm not sure if this is being proposed instead of talonflame (one or the other), or in addition to talonflame (both together on our team). Their roles are similar enough that I'm not sure if our team can support both. I'm also undecided as to which I'd prefer (talonflame or thundurus) at this point. I'll need to think about it a bit longer before I post an opinion on the two. Also willing to listen to further arguments on this.

I don't think having both tornadus and thundurus is a good idea, though. Tornadus just doesn't seem like it's as strong an option as either thundy or talonflame are, and I'd prefer thundy+talonflame over thundy+tornadus.

Having said that, (and of *course* PGL is down when I want to research the current usage stats, grr), as of the 17th, 2 of the top 12 pokemon used have intimidate (#2 hitmontop and #7 landorus-t). That means there's a lot of opportunity to punish intimidators (especially lead intimidators like hitmontop) with a competitive or defiant pokemon, so I think there is space for one on our team.

Here are the options if we want to choose a defiant or competitive pokemon:

Hide

thundurus - We were thinking of using prankster instead, so this option is likely out

tornadus - Not in favor: too much overlap with talonflame, and I would prefer tflame over tornadus

bisharp - Frail, too much overlap with heatran, however has priority and typing is useful

wigglytuff - low stats, fairly well-known now thanks to Ray Rizzo's use in VGC, has potential though

milotic - In favor of this: identified problems include lack of priority and lackluster defense, though it has superb special defense, and could work well even without hitmontop's wide guard support, since it has the best chance to eat special spread moves of all proposed options, especially with assault vest. Note that Ray Rizzo's original wigglytuff spread used assault vest to better tank hits. This frees hitmontop up to potentially use other moves, like feint to break protects and opposing wide guards. It has scald, which acts as a backup burn chance on physical attackers and ice beam to backup or free thundy from having to use HP ice (could use something else instead)

gothitelle - Lower sp.def, sp.atk than milotic, less useful typing, better def than milotic, could bluff a shadow tag set, though this seems like an inferior option without shadow tag, which I don't think our team needs.

meowstic-f - No. Lower defenses mean this is more easily removed from the field than other options, and its base sp.atk is lower, so less offensive presence.

Others: primeape, farfetch'd, empoleon, purugly, braviary

We don't have to go with a competitive/defiant pokemon, especially since 2 of our 3 decided teammates are special attackers, but it does seem like an interesting option to me. I'd love to hear further opinions on this.

Another option that we might be interested in is another intimidator for our team (lando, gyarados, salamence, etc).

 

[ethan06]

Yeah scrap Tornadus. I'm still interested in the idea of a Defiant mon though. I'm going to throw my support in behind Thundurus over Talonflame, in that case. I feel like running both carries the same risks as running double genies - frailty and more overlapping weaknesses (in particular to Rock Slide and Blizzspam). Adding Milotic, which seems to be the only really viable option for the team so far (Empoleon? It gets Aqua Jet which is boosted by Defiant but it's still pretty weak and slow. Also DisQuake weakness), sounds like a decent option to discuss. Even if we don't go with one of these, running some kind of Water-type would be great to round out a FWG core with Venusaur and Heatran.

In summary:
Yes Thundurus
No Tornadus
No Talonflame
Water types: I like the sound of Milotic, Gyarados and maaaaybe Empoleon

 

[EnGarde]

I'm going to throw my support in behind Thundurus over Talonflame, in that case. I feel like running both carries the same risks as running double genies - frailty and more overlapping weaknesses (in particular to Rock Slide and Blizzspam).

Would you mind explaining further why thundy over tflame? You explain adequately why not both--and I agree with you--but I'm currently undecided over which of the two I want on the team. Hearing why you favor thundy over tflame could help me make my decision. :)

Adding Milotic, which seems to be the only really viable option for the team so far (Empoleon? It gets Aqua Jet which is boosted by Defiant but it's still pretty weak and slow. Also DisQuake weakness), sounds like a decent option to discuss. Even if we don't go with one of these, running some kind of Water-type would be great to round out a FWG core with Venusaur and Heatran.

In summary:
Yes Thundurus
No Tornadus
No Talonflame
Water types: I like the sound of Milotic, Gyarados and maaaaybe Empoleon

Empoleon's biggest struggle (and why I feel it is a less desirable option) is that defiant uses the lower attack stat (base 86--yuck), and is much more reliant on getting that boost, though the priority is pretty nice.

However.

Empoleon is a starter, and has access to water pledge. Combine that with grass pledge from mega venusaur, and we've got a back-handed tailwind that the opponent can't snatch. Feels pretty gimmicky, but maybe we could make a mixed defiant empoleon work?

Gyarados has a lot of potential, though. I also want to throw rotom-w back into the mix, since I think, with our current team considerations, it miight be able to work alongside thundy, since they're sufficiently different.

 

[ethan06]

The main reason I prefer Thundurus over Talonflame is Prankster. Being able to spread para and shut down bulky mons with Taunt is far more valuable to me than priority Brave Bird. Thundurus also puts rain in it's place once and for all with STAB T-Bolt and can answer Garchomp and friends with HP [Ice]. Talonflame can't do any of this stuff - it can use prio Brave Bird and set Tailwind but the team we have doesn't really benefit from Tailwind as it is (we've definitely taken a far more bulky approach) and we have two more slots to add a priority user. Most importantly, Thundurus doesn't stack types and has it's weaknesses well covered, whereas the double Water weakness between Talon and Heatran was, as you know, worrying me. I just feel like Thundurus gives far more benefit than Talonflame does for fewer drawbacks.

Talking of priority, another option to consider is Azumarill, which gives us another check to Dragons, Rain, has strong priority in Aqua Jet and gives us a Fairy type.

 

[Age of Kings]

I like Thundurus over Talonflame because of priority Taunt which gives us an advantage over every other support Pokemon in the tier (and stopping X Guard) while it maintains offensive prowess. Meowstic, Talonflame, etc. are rendered useless in the face of it so they WON'T get Trick Room or Perish Song or Tailwind or whatever up unless they're on the wrong side of the field (Mental Herb is still a problem but Fake Out can at least delay TR for a turn). Thundurus also does well against many common Pokemon, I posted a couple of calcs above against the prime Ground types (also the prime Dragon type), it also has a chance to OHKO Mega Blastoise and Zard Y - lots of near OHKOs turn into solid OHKOs with LO so we might want to consider that. Thunder Wave is a fair enough trade for Tailwind since it allows us to have speed control, albeit it's single target. Even though we don't have redirection, Thundurus has great speed and can cripple things - only concern really is Greninja and Scarf Landorus-T Rock Slide spam.

 

[Campaign]

Just got back and read through the thread. Pointedly, I agree with AoK, prankster taunt is enormous and most people will open with defensive Pokemon that won't be running HP Ice. There are two ways to go about this - Open with vulnerable heroes and gamble with Quick Guard or just swap to Aegislash or swap in your intimidate.

There are better Quick Guard users than Talonflame, namely those that also run overheat and fake out (You know who I'm talking about). However, I would also suggest the option of Intimidate Gyarados as a taunter as Intimidate is the name of the game right now in the meta; Most top tier teams have atleast one user and many two. The value in Talon QG is that people don't expect it - The problem is that he's squishy and not being able to sac speed points for HP, you need to be very confident that they're going to fake out or prankster proc or he dies. Like I said, it's a gamble and it may just be me but I hate gambles that throw you behind from the start.

The meta at the moment is also highly based on opening with 3 bulky 'mons that can stall and status. You'll often see a defensive Rotom (/trick a choice scarf) or Zaptos(/tailwind) open and all they do is status and die, and that's their job.

In addition I think the team is too protect heavy, most teams lately don't run a lot of protect because people can easily predict it and it ends up with the pokemon that just tricked last turn getting nuked.

If you want to run eject button on Hitmontop, you need to run him as a swap in, not an open. In which case you should run heatran or kang (or somebody else that's weak to CC/PuP) that can swap out and into intimidate hitmontop.

I do have a few suggestions but they are mostly generic and the majority have already been mentioned, however I do think they should be considered more carefully - I only note this because we're getting to the point where people are starting to test the team on PS. Beyond the aforementioned considerations, I offer the following as possible candidates for the team:
-Togekiss - Follow me is insane, air slash destroys hitmontop/scrafty and can shut down the game with flinches, not to mention roost and twave.
-Assurance Bisharp can cause all kinds of pain and makes amazing WoW bait.
-Tailwind Tailwind Tailwind Tailwind
-Sashbreaker sandstorm - Maybe mixed TTar (can be swapped out for EB hitmontop with complete safety) or Hippodown, whose utlity is off the charts with roar/SR/toxic. Although his Phys defense makes him a godlike Rocky Helmet user, his Sp defense why he's barely even considered in the meta anymore.
-Mega gardy - Nothing to say about her, it's just absurd. With just a little support and 1 move devoted to protect, she will wreck entire teams alone.
-Lando-T - I honestly don't understand how you would ever want to play a triples without this guy. I cannot stress this enough.
-Mirror coat Alomola. Have you noticed the amount of lead grass knot greninjas/thundurus/manetrics/etc... I can't test Suicune because I can't get it on cart. Also, wish switch into rocky helmet user against kang/whatever is great.

Finally, let's start testing. Make the team, jump on PS and play for a few hours, swap pokemon in and out and see what works. A little bit of trial and error is better than hours of theorycrafting and then return with feedback - Unexpected threats, calculations that'll start letting us min/max EVs and fine tuning the lineup.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Prankster Taunt still gets blocked by Quick Guard... However, we have Feint, so I suppose we can get away with it.

Watch out for Mega Mawiles though...
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Hitmontop: 158-188 (100.6 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You need a +Def nature to survive that Play Rough...

=3 (Togekiss) (M) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpD
Calm Nature
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Roost
- Follow Me

Anywho here's the Togekiss I have been running for the longest of time. Using this in conjunction with Intimidates works wonders.

I should adjust the EVs when I am less lazy though, as... 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 244 HP / 220 Def Togekiss: 159-190 (83.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Anything less can get oneshot.

With 0 SAtk investment and Weakness Policy active it hits almost as hard as Mega Mawile, which is hilarious.

 

[Age of Kings]

Before we go into other changes....can I safely say that people are on board with this set seeing the support Thundurus has gotten?

Thundurus
Timid
252 SpA/252 Speed (lazy I know but I don't know of any defense thresholds + 252 SpA gets "near OHKOs" + 252 Speed beats Talonflame)

Thunderbolt
HP Ice
Taunt
Thunder Wave

Unsure on the item. LO turns a lot of "near OHKOs" into solid OHKOs as noted in my previous posts. However, Thundurus is fairly fragile so we may find value in either Sitrus Berry or Sash.

By the way guys, thanks for the contributions - the more detailed input people give, the more we advance, faster we can get the team done.

Just got back and read through the thread. Pointedly, I agree with AoK, prankster taunt is enormous and most people will open with defensive Pokemon that won't be running HP Ice. There are two ways to go about this - Open with vulnerable heroes and gamble with Quick Guard or just swap to Aegislash or swap in your intimidate.

We are leading with Hitmontop who is our Intimidator. Is that good enough or do you feel we should have multiple? I'm starting to see that we are having value in having a primarily special-based team since their Intimidate doesn't cripple us as much. Our next mon should definitely be physical based.

There are better Quick Guard users than Talonflame, namely those that also run overheat and fake out (You know who I'm talking about). However, I would also suggest the option of Intimidate Gyarados as a taunter as Intimidate is the name of the game right now in the meta; Most top tier teams have atleast one user and many two. The value in Talon QG is that people don't expect it - The problem is that he's squishy and not being able to sac speed points for HP, you need to be very confident that they're going to fake out or prankster proc or he dies. Like I said, it's a gamble and it may just be me but I hate gambles that throw you behind from the start.

Talonflame isn't on the table for our team anymore, and we are now running both Taunt and Intimidate. Gyarados was also suggested by MTI a page back, I like the idea.

The meta at the moment is also highly based on opening with 3 bulky 'mons that can stall and status. You'll often see a defensive Rotom (/trick a choice scarf) or Zaptos(/tailwind) open and all they do is status and die, and that's their job.

In addition I think the team is too protect heavy, most teams lately don't run a lot of protect because people can easily predict it and it ends up with the pokemon that just tricked last turn getting nuked.

If you want to run eject button on Hitmontop, you need to run him as a swap in, not an open. In which case you should run heatran or kang (or somebody else that's weak to CC/PuP) that can swap out and into intimidate hitmontop.

We actually haven't decided on an item for Hitmontop yet (reason being item clause, not laziness; see above how Sitrus Berry is being considered for Thundurus), but we did rule out Eject Button a few pages ago since we intend Hitmontop to be a disrupting lead and stick around on the field to use Feint and Wide Guard.

Venusaur is immune to Trick; Heatran, we can replace Protect with Flash Cannon although I don't see a problem. I think two are ok since they have common weaknesses, but if we have something more to gain then what does everyone else think?

I do have a few suggestions but they are mostly generic and the majority have already been mentioned, however I do think they should be considered more carefully - I only note this because we're getting to the point where people are starting to test the team on PS. Beyond the aforementioned considerations, I offer the following as possible candidates for the team:
-Togekiss - Follow me is insane, air slash destroys hitmontop/scrafty and can shut down the game with flinches, not to mention roost and twave.
-Assurance Bisharp can cause all kinds of pain and makes amazing WoW bait.
-Tailwind Tailwind Tailwind Tailwind
-Sashbreaker sandstorm - Maybe mixed TTar (can be swapped out for EB hitmontop with complete safety) or Hippodown, whose utlity is off the charts with roar/SR/toxic. Although his Phys defense makes him a godlike Rocky Helmet user, his Sp defense why he's barely even considered in the meta anymore.
-Mega gardy - Nothing to say about her, it's just absurd. With just a little support and 1 move devoted to protect, she will wreck entire teams alone.
-Lando-T - I honestly don't understand how you would ever want to play a triples without this guy. I cannot stress this enough.
-Mirror coat Alomola. Have you noticed the amount of lead grass knot greninjas/thundurus/manetrics/etc... I can't test Suicune because I can't get it on cart. Also, wish switch into rocky helmet user against kang/whatever is great.

Finally, let's start testing. Make the team, jump on PS and play for a few hours, swap pokemon in and out and see what works. A little bit of trial and error is better than hours of theorycrafting and then return with feedback - Unexpected threats, calculations that'll start letting us min/max EVs and fine tuning the lineup.

Here's the thing - I'd rather not run into a situation where we are trying to run too many things at once. It's great that you guys have lots of ideas but we also have to remember that we have to maintain team synergy.

If we want to run a second Intimidator, I think Landorus is a great choice. We are also in great need of a physical Pokemon, so Landorus as our next choice might be a good idea.

Do you need a Suicune? I have a spare Bold or the event Relaxed one. Let me know if you need any tutors like Tailwind or Icy Wind. btw Suicune might be another option for Tailwind....@EnGarde was talking about Water types. Suicune could be an interesting choice.

I welcome you guys to test with what we've got so far and report back. As mentioned, my personal time is more limited than when the project began.

Prankster Taunt still gets blocked by Quick Guard... However, we have Feint, so I suppose we can get away with it.

Watch out for Mega Mawiles though...
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Hitmontop: 158-188 (100.6 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You need a +Def nature to survive that Play Rough...

=3 (Togekiss) (M) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpD
Calm Nature
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Roost
- Follow Me

Anywho here's the Togekiss I have been running for the longest of time. Using this in conjunction with Intimidates works wonders.

I should adjust the EVs when I am less lazy though, as... 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 244 HP / 220 Def Togekiss: 159-190 (83.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Anything less can get oneshot.

With 0 SAtk investment and Weakness Policy active it hits almost as hard as Mega Mawile, which is hilarious.

lol i forgot about Quick Guard blocking Taunt >.>

My worry is currently we are too Kanga-weak. You and Campaign brought up redirection - I feel that it might perhaps be more beneficial to drop Mega Venusaur with Amoonguss + Rocky Helmet so we have that extra utility, but don't sacrifice anything as far as team synergy goes. Heatran is already a great check for Mawile and Bisharp. As far as resistances go, I'm unsure what Togekiss provides that we already don't have. Of course, replacing Amoonguss plus stacking Tornadus and Landorus means we are massively weak to Ice spam so idk if it works with the team..... (so many things to consider @_@)

 

[EnGarde]

Prankster Taunt still gets blocked by Quick Guard... However, we have Feint, so I suppose we can get away with it.

Watch out for Mega Mawiles though...
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Hitmontop: 158-188 (100.6 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You need a +Def nature to survive that Play Rough...

=3 (Togekiss) (M) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpD
Calm Nature
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Roost
- Follow Me

Anywho here's the Togekiss I have been running for the longest of time. Using this in conjunction with Intimidates works wonders.

I should adjust the EVs when I am less lazy though, as... 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 244 HP / 220 Def Togekiss: 159-190 (83.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Anything less can get oneshot.

With 0 SAtk investment and Weakness Policy active it hits almost as hard as Mega Mawile, which is hilarious.

(lol, I wrote half a post, got called away, and forgot about it.) ^_^

I've been working heavily with togekiss myself; never thought to use weakness policy, though. Might have to try that one.

I've been practicing on creating custom EV spreads, and one of the ones I've worked with is togekiss, so I can share what I've learned about it.

If you want to keep your exact stats, your spread is better than a +def nature (you get 1 more stat point).

If you want better balanced defenses, that's the only time to use a +def nature, as you end up maxing your defense at 147 with a calm nature and 252 EVs, whereas you can get a straight 148/148 stat with a bold nature. The EV spread I ended up going with was bold 244 HP / 148 Def / 4 Sp.Atk / 100 Sp.Def / 12 Speed. At level 50, this gives you 1 more point of sp.def than defense (147/148), in case I run into a random download porygon2. 12 speed to speed creep other base 80s, 4 sp.atk because they wouldn't fit anywhere else, 244 HP because it is important for my particular togekiss build to have an odd HP stat (sandstorm damage).

EDIT: Ninja'd by Age of Kings *again*. You are a ninja, AoK.

EDIT2: And of course, my computer chooses to only post the first half of my post. -.-

To summarize what I was thinking, I wanted to mention that I disagreed with Campaign about removing protect, especially from "mission critical" pokemon (heatran in particular, mega venu could probably work with synthesis instead). Not having protect leaves us massively open to double targeting. Having protect greatly eases prediction, since it gives us a safe way to see what our opponent is going to do, which is important during the learning process. After we have the team built, we can reevaluate to see who can safely replace it with another move.

I also didn't understand some of Campaign's recommendations, like hippowdon with roar / SR / toxic. That works in 6x6 singles, but isn't good for triples. Toxic takes a whopping 4 turns to outweigh burn damage (a minor eternity for battle spot matches, which generally only last like 7 to 14 turns), and doesn't give you the attack drop. Stealth Rocks takes a moveslot and doesn't deal that much damage to things not named charizard or talonflame, and there isn't that much switching going on. And I can't think of many situations where I would want to use roar over an attacking move.

Still need to think about what AoK posted, will prolly post more tomorrow. :)

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

A good check for Mega Kang is having two Intimidators in my opinion.

So you wanted to try Gyarados? This is the one I have been using. I wouldn't want to run anything slower because Battle Spot is often about speed... Jolly because I hate Dark Void Smeargle.

Mr. Fish (Gyarados) (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Ice Fang
- Taunt

Looking for another Mega? What about Mega Mawile?

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 162-192 (89.5 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Hits stupidly hard and is cute, what more could you ask for?

 

[Pyritie]

Looking for another Mega? What about Mega Mawile?

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 162-192 (89.5 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Hits stupidly hard and is cute, what more could you ask for?

Drain Punch to be a valid move on mawile

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Another option for a mega is Charizard-Y. Just gotta watch out for them random Rock Slides as my Scarfchomp has slew many of them...

If I were to EV that Zard I probably would run Timid 252 speed because you never know what silliness you will face on Battle Spot. I think Zard can also Tailwind.

Now if you want to stop Trick Room... There's really only Taunt which can be blocked with Mental Herb, Aroma Veil or Oblivious or...flinching. I have been using Rock Slide Scarfchomp with Waterfall/Taunt Gyarados and Weakness Policy Togekiss. Plus I use Mega Mawile, which enjoys Trick Room too. Just some food for thought...

 

[EnGarde]

EDIT2: In order to shorten the vertical length of the post, I tried to put a lot of individual set information in hide tags, but it cut the quotes short (doesn't allow you to view the whole quote). Not sure how to fix that. :-/

Wow! Lots of recommendations! I'll be writing a really long post, which will take me a while to complete (this is a placeholder for when its done, I'll edit it in here if I'm still the bottom post in the thread). EDIT: Done. :)

In the meantime, I'm fine with finalizing thundy-t as our 4th teammate, but I'm currently not in favor of switching mega venu out for amoonguss. I was against amoonguss when it was first offered a few pages back because I worry that having too many support-oriented options on our team will mean that we won't be able to deal enough damage quickly to actually win. I'd prefer to consider other offensive options first, though since thundy has offensive presence, I could maybe see 1 more support pokemon working for our team.
As I said: will be typing a longer dissertation to follow. :) Stay tuned.

Team Snapshot:

Support Hitmontop @ Rocky Helmet/Eject Button/Sitrus Berry
Careful
Intimidate
252 HP / 180 SpD / 76 Speed
- Close Combat
- Feint
- Wide Guard
- Fake Out

Bulky Attacker Heatran @ Air Balloon/Life Orb/Chople Berry/Sitrus Berry/Leftovers
Modest
Flash Fire
180 HP/252 Sp. Atk/76 Spd
-Heat Wave
-Earth Power
-Ancient Power
-Protect

Team Mega Venusaur @ Venusaurite
Modest
Chlorophyll -> Thick Fat
IVs: 31/x/31/31/31/31
252 HP/68 Def/180 Sp. Atk/4 Sp. Def/4 Spd
-Giga Drain
-Sludge Bomb
-Sleep Powder
-Protect/Synthesis

Offensive Support Thundurus @ Life Orb / Focus Sash
Timid
Prankster
IVs: 31/Even/30/31/31/31
4 HP / 252 Sp.Atk / 252 Speed
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power (Ice)
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave

RIP Talonflame. :(

Hide

Support Talonflame @ Sitrus berry/focus sash/sky plate
Adamant
Gale Wings
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
- Brave Bird / Acrobatics (if holding a consumable item)
- Tailwind / Flare Blitz (FB gives better coverage against mega mawile)
- Will-o-Wisp / Flare Blitz
- Quick Guard / Flare Blitz

Some 2 Other Pokemon from the list below:

---

EDIT: Holy data dump, batman! O.O

Here is a list of all the current pokemon recommendations from everyone I could find in the last page and a half (newer recommendations listed first). I will be listing a few quick responses from me in pink italics. We should focus on reducing this list pokemon by pokemon until we're left with the ones we want on our team.

Shortlist:

Hide

Mega Charizard Y
Gyarados
Amoonguss
Togekiss
Bisharp
Tailwind
Tyranitar
Hippodown
Mega gardevoir
Landorus-T
Alomomola
Suicune
Wigglytuff
Milotic
Gothitelle
Meowstic-f
Primeape
Farfetch'd
Empoleon
Purugly
Braviary
Rotom-W
Azumarill
Aegislash
Sylveon
Meowstic-M

From MythTrainerInfinity:

Mega Charizard Y - Timid 252 speed with Tailwind

Interested. Would be willing to drop mega venu for regular sun-sweeper venusaur. Would need to hear more on this.

Gyarados

Hide

Mr. Fish (Gyarados) (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Ice Fang
- Taunt

Personally, I'm more in favor of going with a bulkier spread: maybe keep ddance or replace with protect, maybe drop ice fang for earthquake. 2nd intimidate would be useful, though.

From Age of Kings:

drop Mega Venusaur for Amoonguss + Rocky Helmet so we have that extra utility, but don't sacrifice anything as far as team synergy goes

Not in favor. Quoting relevant argument:

Hide

We'd definitely take our opponents by surprise with this spread! I don't think I've ever heard of offensive amoonguss before. I worry that, because this spread barely guarantees us the 2HKO on sylveon (50.4 - 59.4%) with an SE hit, that we might find ourselves frustrated by the lack of damage output.
For example,
Without foul play, aegislash completely walls amoonguss. With foul play, aegislash only goes down if we can nail the blade form, which requires good prediction skills, and will cost us the ability to run protect:

0- Atk Amoonguss Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 32-38 (19.1 - 22.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

0- Atk Amoonguss Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 176-208 (105.3 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If we consider hitmontop, we'll see our hits are all 3HKOs or 4HKOs, meaning our target's teammates have plenty of time to curb-stomp amoonguss:

212+ SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hitmontop: 57-67 (36.3 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

212+ SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Hitmontop: 45-54 (28.6 - 34.3%) -- 1.8% chance to 3HKO

212+ SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hitmontop: 42-51 (26.7 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Personally, I'm still more interested in looking at stronger offensive options over keeping amoonguss, though, like meowstic, I'm still willing to consider him for a support role if we choose to reevaluate our talonflame (EDIT: thundurus) for an offensive role.

From MythTrainerInfinity:

Togekiss

Hide

=3 (Togekiss) (M) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpD
Calm Nature
Adding in my EV spread: Bold 244 HP / 148 Def / 4 Sp.Atk / 100 Sp.Def / 12 Speed
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Roost (slashing in protect too)
- Follow Me

If you do use it I would suggest Togekiss as well. Being able to shoot an Air Slash across the field is nice and the Weakness Policy Kiss is a nasty surprise. Plus you'd be able to flinch potential Trick Roomers and not have to worry about wasting a Taunt to a Mental Herb.

I like this option. Like thundurus, a good mix of support and offensive capability. Duplicates type weaknesses, though.

From Campaign:

Togekiss - So that's 3 people interested in togekiss. What's your thoughts about the proposed spread above, Campaign?

Bisharp

Also recommended earlier by Karxrida , quoting relevant set and rebuttal, willing to listen to arguments if they address the rebuttal:

Hide

Triples Attacker
########
move 1: Assurance / Night Slash / Knock Off
move 2: Sucker Punch
move 3: Iron Head
move 4: Quick Guard / Protect
ability: Defiant
item: Black Glasses / Life Orb
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
nature: Adamant

However, I don't think Bisharp is a great choice because it doesn't offer anything that our team needs at the moment, namely it's a little slow and shares many of Heatran's weaknesses that we are trying to cover for.

Tailwind

Lots of great users. MythTrainerInfinity mentioned char y above. What pokemon were you thinking of, @Campaign?

Sashbreaker sandstorm - Maybe mixed Tyranitar or Hippodown with Rocky Helmet

I'm sorta meh on these options. Would need to hear more arguments for these, plus a more workable moveset for hippowdon.

Mega gardevoir

This was discussed at the beginning of the thread, quoting relevant set and rebuttals:

Hide

Gardevoir @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Telepathy > Pixilate
- Hyper Voice
- Psychic / Shadow Ball
- Ally Switch / Shadow Ball
- Protect

Gardevoir strikes all the opponent's pokemon with a very strong pixilate hyper voice. Psychic as a reliable 2nd STAB (or shadow ball for coverage), and ally switch because gardevoir is one of the few pokemon to get it.

I chose telepathy over the more common trace because generally the only move you want to trace (that I can think of right now) is intimidate, but there are a lot of moves you DON'T want to trace (like sand stream), and since we're only likely to have that copied ability for 1 turn, it'd be safer and more consistent to play with telepathy instead (we could switch in on our own spread moves, too).
Unfortunately, gardevoir is very physically weak in a metagame filled with (mega kangaskhan) physical attackers, and is only neutral to sucker punch, which does massive damage:

252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 103-123 (71.5 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 122-144 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Another disadvantage is that gardevoir would take up our mega slot, and in a metagame where mega kangaskhan and mega mawile are strong options, we might not want to give that up.

I'm a bit leery of the idea of Mega Gardevoir though, mostly because it burns up our Mega slot very early and has issues with taking common hits. Sylveon would work a lot better if we decide to go with Hyper Voice spam.

I am definitely a bigger fan of Sylveon than Mega Gardevoir though - I don't like how Garde uses up a Mega Slot and how comparatively more difficult it is to support. ethan06 covered my objections pretty well.

Landorus-T

Interesting option. We'll need to choose between this and gyarados. Proposed set info?

Mirror coat Alomomola
No thanks. I'd need to hear a pretty strong argument to be willing to consider this.

Suicune

While it makes a great tank, I'm not sure if this can provide the kind of utility our team needs. What kind of set were you thinking?

From me:

Listing of defiant and competitive pokemon. Posting quotes of the ones not previously listed that have generated interest:

Wigglytuff - low stats, fairly well-known now thanks to Ray Rizzo's use in VGC, has potential though

Milotic - In favor of this: identified problems include lack of priority and lackluster defense, though it has superb special defense, and could work well even without hitmontop's wide guard support, since it has the best chance to eat special spread moves of all proposed options, especially with assault vest. Note that Ray Rizzo's original wigglytuff spread used assault vest to better tank hits. This frees hitmontop up to potentially use other moves, like feint to break protects and opposing wide guards. It has scald, which acts as a backup burn chance on physical attackers and ice beam to backup or free thundy from having to use HP ice (could use something else instead)

Gothitelle - Lower sp.def, sp.atk than milotic, less useful typing, better def than milotic, could bluff a shadow tag set, though this seems like an inferior option without shadow tag, which I don't think our team needs.

Meowstic-f - No. Lower defenses mean this is more easily removed from the field than other options, and its base sp.atk is lower, so less offensive presence.

Others: primeape, farfetch'd, empoleon, purugly, braviary

Further expanding on Empoleon:

Hide

Empoleon's biggest struggle (and why I feel it is a less desirable option) is that defiant uses the lower attack stat (base 86--yuck), and is much more reliant on getting that boost, though the priority is pretty nice.

However.

Empoleon is a starter, and has access to water pledge. Combine that with grass pledge from mega venusaur, and we've got a back-handed tailwind that the opponent can't snatch. Feels pretty gimmicky, but maybe we could make a mixed defiant empoleon work?

Gyarados has a lot of potential, though. I also want to throw rotom-w back into the mix, since I think, with our current team considerations, it miight be able to work alongside thundy, since they're sufficiently different.

Rotom-W

Hide

I'd also like to propose Rotom Wash as a bulkier option. Another will-o-wisper would greatly improve our odds vs. Mega Kanga, as well as other physical attackers, but since we've got talonflame (at least in the early game), we could also run one of rotom's other myriad support options. We've got some flexibility on potential EV spreads to use with the washing machine, as an uninvested neutral nature tbolt is enough to guarantee a 2HKO on average bulk mega blastoise, and blastoise, even with max investment in sp.attack, has at best a % to 2HKO on neutral nature average invested rotom-w (Please note that there is still nature + 256 EVs left to be assigned to rotom-w in these calculations!):

0 SpA Rotom-W Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Blastoise: 96-114 (51.6 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 73-87 (46.4 - 55.4%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO

Also, rotom-w has a base speed of 86, while mega blastoise has a base speed of 78, so we're likely to outspeed, or can calc to guarantee we outspeed.

EDIT: Forgot to add the first time that rotom is a pretty strong counter to opposing talonflame (it might be able to get a tailwind, will-o-wisp, or attack off, though), and can afford to ignore it for a turn or two (if there's a bigger threat on the field). Using the same unfinished spread above (leaving us a chance to choose nature, held item, and 256 EVs at a later time), we have:

0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 174-206 (112.9 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Rotom-W Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 144-170 (93.5 - 110.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (In case we want to use the greater accuracy option)

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 59-69 (37.5 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Flare blitz is the same)

From ethan06:

Azumarill

Hide

Another strong option. Willing to hear set details.

another option to consider is Azumarill, which gives us another check to Dragons, Rain, has strong priority in Aqua Jet and gives us a Fairy type.

From MythTrainerInfinity:

Aegislash

Hide

Another team option is Aegislash. It gets Wide Guard too just in case you wanted to give Hitmontop Quick Guard. Plus Mega Kang wouldn't want to meet one in a dark alley.

I proposed a sub/king's shield set earlier. Might be worth discussing again?

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
- King's Shield
- Substitute / Wide Guard
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon / Sacred Sword

Pretty standard set, but effective. This thing has some amazing staying power, and can still do massive damage. Sacred sword deals with kangaskhan better, but flash cannon or iron head makes a reliable STAB against fairy types.

From me:

Sylveon

Set and Rebuttals against this:

Hide

Sylveon @ Life Orb / Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
Modest
Pixilate
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Sp.Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Hidden Power (??? Fire? -- #2 60.6% likely)
- Shadow Ball
- Protect / Moonblast

Sylveon may be risky since it is kinda slow and when you see one in the middle... You know what that fairy Vee is gonna do, but if you do get that Hyper Voice off... it will hurt.

I'm fairly neutral as far as Sylveon is concerned, though. Another attacker is always nice, as is something to switch into Dragons if Heatran is low on health, but it's resistances really don't bring much to the table and looks fairly well prepared for in terms of the usage stats (namely, Aegislash, Heatran and Zard-Y, as well as most of the physical attackers being able to dent it significantly). In other words, Sylveon is (in my opinion) a Pokémon that we should add if we can't find any more useful things to put in our last two slots. I just don't think it accounts for anything that we don't already have covered. I'm open to arguments though, so convince me if you think Sylveon is a good idea :)

From Whiskey Tango and MythTrainerInfinity:

Meowstic-M

Hide

Still pretty meh on this option. Meowstic is pretty potent, but I don't think it'll provide the kind of support our team needs, and even still, our team needs more straightforward offense options.

Piggybacking off the post above, I'm going to throw in a huge vote for Meowstic making this team somewhere. Safeguard and Swagger are both remarkable utilities, whether Swagger is aimed across the field or at your own Pokemon. It also has the option of packing screens (either both or one the team needs more), Yawn and Taunt.

I'd vote for Meowstic just on the fact that Smeargle is a thing, honestly. It is a third support Pokemon, but its role is sufficiently different from Talonflame and Hitmontop, I think, who both have an offensive presence as well. It's anecdotal, but I've been running all three on a team in Showdown with some success.

I'm really hesitant to add more support pokemon to the team. I think that as we add more non-offensive pokemon, we create a team that'll be more difficult for less skilled members to use effectively. If this is to be an ambassador team to help introduce more people to competitive play on Battle Spot triples, having a team that's more consistent and easier to run and understand for members of all skill levels is very desirable. In general, what I think the team really needs at this point is more offensive options to complement heatran.

Having said that, I'm not voting no outright to meowstic. I've used meowstic a lot in doubles, and I know how useful it can be. I'm just saying, if we choose to use meowstic, then we should reevaluate our current support options--specifically talonflame--into a more offensive set, like a choice band or life orb bird nuke.

---

Aaaand...that's as far back as I'm going. Let me know if I missed anybody, and what your thoughts are on these recommendations. What pokemon do you think can obviously be removed from the list?

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

So we didn't discuss Meowstic-m? Hmm. I have been using one to much success for the longest of time.

I suggest 252 HP and a lot in Defenses depending on if you wanted to use Bold or Calm.

I have been using bold 252 HP 248 Def and 8 Sdef I should move 4 of that into Speed...

Anywho...
Meowstic-M @ Air Balloon
Quick Guard
Safeguard
Swagger
Psychic

I use this in conjunction with a physical attacker and SafeSwag to ridiculous levels. It is worth mentioning that with something like Mega Mawile... You can Swagger your Mega Maw before it uses Sucker Punch.

The only thing that can prevent you from using a Prankster Quick Guard is either Snatch by something faster like a Weavile or Feint.

I love using Suicune and my favorite spread is Bold 252 HP/176 Def/80 SDef. I haven't fully optimized the EVs for lv. 50 battles yet. I feel Suicune will struggle against Perishtrap teams though.

I suggest Lefties or Chesto Berry if you do use one with...
Scald
Ice Beam
Calm Mind
Rest

Roar could go over Ice Beam or Scald if you are really afraid of Shadow Tag.

 

[EnGarde]

So we didn't discuss Meowstic-m? Hmm. I have been using one to much success for the longest of time.

I suggest 252 HP and a lot in Defenses depending on if you wanted to use Bold or Calm.

I have been using bold 252 HP 248 Def and 8 Sdef I should move 4 of that into Speed...

Anywho...
Meowstic-M @ Air Balloon
Quick Guard
Safeguard
Swagger
Psychic

I use this in conjunction with a physical attacker and SafeSwag to ridiculous levels. It is worth mentioning that with something like Mega Mawile... You can Swagger your Mega Maw before it uses Sucker Punch.

The only thing that can prevent you from using a Prankster Quick Guard is either Snatch by something faster like a Weavile or Feint.

I love using Suicune and my favorite spread is Bold 252 HP/176 Def/80 SDef. I haven't fully optimized the EVs for lv. 50 battles yet. I feel Suicune will struggle against Perishtrap teams though.

I suggest Lefties or Chesto Berry if you do use one with...
Scald
Ice Beam
Calm Mind
Rest

Roar could go over Ice Beam or Scald if you are really afraid of Shadow Tag.

Good catch. That one was offered earlier, but I didn't continue that far back in the thread. Will edit it into the list above. Though, for your EV spread: 248 and 8 are both evenly divisible by 8, meaning you're losing 8 EV points there (4 on def, 4 on sp.def). If the IV is 31, then the EV needs to be 4 more than a multiple of 8 to be properly min/maxed. Thus, your meowstic would be better with:

Bold 252 HP / 244 Def / 4 Sp.Atk / 4 Sp.Def / 4 Speed

It'd give you 2 more stat points at level 50. ;)

 

[Age of Kings]

For Suicune, I was honestly thinking of something with Icy Wind and/or Tailwind with Scald. Being one of the bulkier viable users of Tailwind is nice because it's not fragile or vulnerable to Scarf + Rock Slide spam as many other Tailwind users are.

People are throwing lots of things on the table, so we need to consolidate what we actually need.
- Would our preferred Kanga check (plus additional utility/insurance against physical Pokemon) have Intimidate or burn? Or even redirection w/ Rocky Helmet?
- Do we need Tailwind?
- Should we devote another team slot to just damage or is every Pokemon fulfilling multiple roles sans Heatran fine?

I guess from reading it seems we are veering in the direction of a second Intimidator.

Pros and cons of each:

Gyarados:
Pros:
- Taunt
- Icy Wind / Thunder Wave for speed control
- DD
- Less exploitable weaknesses, with Water types everywhere.

Cons:
- AoE Electric moves are everywhere, especially if we don't run the Mega.
- Single target oriented, without offering equivalent power to compensate.
- Gyarados' offensive prowess overall makes me a bit weary.

Landorus-T:
Pros:
- One of the most used mons in the tier, as Campaign said above, it's really good and its popularity attests to its usefulness.
- Scarf + Rock Slide = flinch hax. Assault Vest is option #2 which seems fairly interesting.
- Better supported by Feint Hitmontop, as it can pop Wide Guard.
- Knock Off

Cons:
- Much more vulnerable to rain teams
- Useless if burned
- Rock Slide is a little luck-dependent.

They're both massively Rotom-weak, but that's why we have Venusaur.

Charizard-Y is interesting. It supports Heatran and checks some of the same things Venusaur does. However, it is fairly vulnerable to Scarfers and its fragility might prove to be a problem. Between the two, Venusaur might be the safer choice especially since it can offer status.

Calcs will come tomorrow. Sorry for my sloppiness this week - I have a three day weekend so I can contribute more quality posts.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

If we want an easy to use team might I suggest Mega Kang? Super duper easy to use with Fake Out/Return/PUP/Sucker Punch. Fake Out with her and Hitmontop and set up Tailwind.

Another plus with using Togekiss is you can pretty much stop any Beat Up team from making Terrakion hit like a drunken train.

That said the whole Beat Up/Justified combo is another super easy combo to set up.

Justified Terrakion usually eats a Beat Up from either a Weavile or Whimsicott after Weavile Fakes Out or Whimsicott uses Tailwind. This setup can be mostly stopped by Wide Guard, but if you have a Hitmontop to use Feint... You can see where I am going with this.

I typically use Quick Guard Meowstic and Follow Me Togekiss to sort of deal with it.

 

[ethan06]

First off, apologies for not posting in so long - I tend not to commit to posting unless I have something constructive to say, and over the last little while I just haven't really. I'm going to throw some support behind Aegislash as I feel like Mega Kang has a field day with us at the moment (besides Heatran and Hitmontop, but Kang can live a Close Combat and Heatran is 2HKOed by Power-Up Punch (while also giving Kang a +4 in the process)). It's such a broken monster across the board that I really think it deserves addressing at some point; therefore, Aegislash or some other Ghost is a solid option for dealing with it. Not considering Ferrothorn because it overlaps too much with Heatran imo.

Looking at the top twelve in Triples usage on the PGL:

threatlist

1. Talonflame
Soundly beaten by Heatran, also checked by Thundurus (covered)
2. Hitmontop
Thundurus...? Venusaur walls it for days and could probably wear it down (Sludge Bomb is a 3HKO using our own spreads, which is admittedly unreliable). Should we worry about getting a dedicated check to this or can we just settle for making sure we minimise our Close Combat weakness? It is a support Pokémon so... (?)
3. Kangaskhan
See above paragraph. (not covered)
4. Sylveon
Walled by Heatran and countered by Mega Venusaur. Not a threat. (covered)
5. Aegislash
Heatran can just spam Heat Wave or target it specifically with Earth Power to dodge Wide Guard. Thund can Taunt it and Venusaur can Sleep Powder to prevent King's Shield foolery. (covered)
6. Heatran
Hitmontop can 2HKO with Close Combat and block Heat Waves with Wide Guard. Our own Heatran can absorb Heat Waves as well (and discourage them in general) but fears Earth Power. I'd like to say it's covered but it still feels shaky... Adding a Water-type would void this issue though. (?)
7. Landorus-T
Thundurus outspeeds non-Scarfed Landorus and murders it with HP [Ice]. However, 64.8% of them are actually Scarfed, and most of the time will be spamming Rock Slide which Thundurus hates. Hitmontop can protect with Wide Guard however (which also puts Heatran's mind at ease regarding the threat of an Earthquake), which means that it can be worked around, but if we don't bring Hitmontop then Thundurus is a very unreliable check. Again, this issue will be fixed by a good Water-type, preferably specially-based to avoid Intimidate. (?)
8. Blastoise
Thundurus and Mega Venusaur both deal with it well. (covered)
9. Charizard
84.4% of these are Charizard Y, and Heatran is designed to deal with it so I'd say this one is well taken care of. Thundurus also laughs at it. (covered)
10. Greninja
Greninja is frail as hell and hates taking a Thunder Wave from Thundurus, especially if it tries to Mat Block first turn out. Mega Venusaur is also a hard counter to any Greninja that isn't running Extrasensory, RIP in peace (covered)
11. Garchomp
Basically Landorus but scarier, Thundurus does not want Scarfed Rock Slides at all. Running Ice coverage on our Water mon would patch this up (or Play Rough on Azumarill) but at the moment, it could tear holes in our team if we let it. Feel free to point out anything we missed but I'm gunna say (not covered)
12. Meowstic-M
Support Pokémon, not much else to say. Thundurus can out-Prankster and Taunt it (a faster Quick Guard would help here). We don't really have any type advantages over it though, and Venusaur is afraid of it's STAB. Probably similar to Hitmontop in that it's a support and probably doesn't need to be specifically countered. Either way, I'll give it a (?)

So out of the twelve, Kangaskhan and Garchomp are the scariest, while I think we should also try to account for Landorus and Heatran a little more. I think the best catch-all to all five would be Suicune (a really interesting option that AoK brought up), and the last slot could be devoted to accounting for Kang a bit more. I don't want to jump the gun too much though so I'll stop here and open it up to discussion.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

First off, apologies for not posting in so long - I tend not to commit to posting unless I have something constructive to say, and over the last little while I just haven't really. I'm going to throw some support behind Aegislash as I feel like Mega Kang has a field day with us at the moment (besides Heatran and Hitmontop, but Kang can live a Close Combat and Heatran is 2HKOed by Power-Up Punch (while also giving Kang a +4 in the process)). It's such a broken monster across the board that I really think it deserves addressing at some point; therefore, Aegislash or some other Ghost is a solid option for dealing with it. Not considering Ferrothorn because it overlaps too much with Heatran imo.

Looking at the top twelve in Triples usage on the PGL:

threatlist

1. Talonflame
Soundly beaten by Heatran, also checked by Thundurus (covered)
2. Hitmontop
Thundurus...? Venusaur walls it for days and could probably wear it down (Sludge Bomb is a 3HKO using our own spreads, which is admittedly unreliable). Should we worry about getting a dedicated check to this or can we just settle for making sure we minimise our Close Combat weakness? It is a support Pokémon so... (?)
3. Kangaskhan
See above paragraph. (not covered)
4. Sylveon
Walled by Heatran and countered by Mega Venusaur. Not a threat. (covered)
5. Aegislash
Heatran can just spam Heat Wave or target it specifically with Earth Power to dodge Wide Guard. Thund can Taunt it and Venusaur can Sleep Powder to prevent King's Shield foolery. (covered)
6. Heatran
Hitmontop can 2HKO with Close Combat and block Heat Waves with Wide Guard. Our own Heatran can absorb Heat Waves as well (and discourage them in general) but fears Earth Power. I'd like to say it's covered but it still feels shaky... Adding a Water-type would void this issue though. (?)
7. Landorus-T
Thundurus outspeeds non-Scarfed Landorus and murders it with HP [Ice]. However, 64.8% of them are actually Scarfed, and most of the time will be spamming Rock Slide which Thundurus hates. Hitmontop can protect with Wide Guard however (which also puts Heatran's mind at ease regarding the threat of an Earthquake), which means that it can be worked around, but if we don't bring Hitmontop then Thundurus is a very unreliable check. Again, this issue will be fixed by a good Water-type, preferably specially-based to avoid Intimidate. (?)
8. Blastoise
Thundurus and Mega Venusaur both deal with it well. (covered)
9. Charizard
84.4% of these are Charizard Y, and Heatran is designed to deal with it so I'd say this one is well taken care of. Thundurus also laughs at it. (covered)
10. Greninja
Greninja is frail as hell and hates taking a Thunder Wave from Thundurus, especially if it tries to Mat Block first turn out. Mega Venusaur is also a hard counter to any Greninja that isn't running Extrasensory, RIP in peace (covered)
11. Garchomp
Basically Landorus but scarier, Thundurus does not want Scarfed Rock Slides at all. Running Ice coverage on our Water mon would patch this up (or Play Rough on Azumarill) but at the moment, it could tear holes in our team if we let it. Feel free to point out anything we missed but I'm gunna say (not covered)
12. Meowstic-M
Support Pokémon, not much else to say. Thundurus can out-Prankster and Taunt it (a faster Quick Guard would help here). We don't really have any type advantages over it though, and Venusaur is afraid of it's STAB. Probably similar to Hitmontop in that it's a support and probably doesn't need to be specifically countered. Either way, I'll give it a (?)

So out of the twelve, Kangaskhan and Garchomp are the scariest, while I think we should also try to account for Landorus and Heatran a little more. I think the best catch-all to all five would be Suicune (a really interesting option that AoK brought up), and the last slot could be devoted to accounting for Kang a bit more. I don't want to jump the gun too much though so I'll stop here and open it up to discussion.

Hmmm...In my experience I feel that we should not only account for the top threats, but the synergies behind them. A Scarfchomp on its own is a threat, but is it as threatening as a Scarfchomp with a Follow Me Togekiss and Wide Guard Hitmontop partners?

I feel the best way to deal with Mega Kang is to cripple her attack either by dual Intimidate or a burn. That way it will take a couple turns before she is truly threatening.

If we want to go the dual Intimidate route we could use Gyarados or...

Landorus-T @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
Adamant or Jolly Nature
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Attack / 252 Speed
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Superpower
- U-Turn

Make sure you use a couple things immune to EQ or give something else Wide Guard. We probably should also be packing Quick Guard on something else to to shut down any Bisharp Sucker Punch should we go with Landy.

I have not used Azu yet in Triples, but I am a bit lukewarm since it really can't use too many decent spread moves.

 

[EnGarde]

I've been sitting back for a while again to see what other opinions were, but I still feel like there are so many options on the table that I'm just not sure which options I want / think are best anymore. Rather than recommending new things, I'd like to winnow down the current list. So, here are the categories I see in the recommendations listed above. I'll start with an Intimidate user, since Age of Kings already isolated that one. I will also put a strike through on the ones I'm definitely not in favor of.

First, here is the shortlist I posted earlier of all the current recommendations up for consideration. I've re-added Mega Kangaskhan and salamence because I didn't go back far enough in the thread the first time, and mega kang in particular was re-recommended.

shortlist

Mega Charizard Y
Gyarados
Amoonguss
Togekiss
Bisharp
Tyranitar
Hippodown
Mega gardevoir
Landorus-T
Alomomola
Suicune
Wigglytuff
Milotic
Gothitelle
Meowstic-f
Primeape
Farfetch'd
Empoleon
Purugly
Braviary
Rotom-W
Azumarill
Aegislash
Sylveon
Meowstic-M
Salamence
Mega Kangaskhan

Now, here is the list of recommendations grouped by role they can fulfill on the team. A few of them (i.e. gyarados) are listed more than once, since they fit in more than 1 category.

Intimidator - Gyarados, Landorus-t, Salamence.

Competitive / Defiant - Bisharp, Wigglytuff, Milotic, Gothitelle, Empoleon.

Weather - Mega Charizard Y, Tyranitar, Hippowdon.

Water Type (completes water /fire / grass core) - Gyarados, Milotic, Alomomola, Suicune, Rotom-W, Azumarill.

Support - Amoonguss, Togekiss, Meowstic-M.

Other Mega - Mega gardevoir, Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Charizard Y.

Bulky Attacker - Aegislash, Sylveon.

Personally, I am in favor of adding a pokemon from the intimidator category and from the water type category. Why do I want to focus on these 2 categories first? Because I think they can fill the current holes in our team that our team needs. Intimidate helps cover mega kangaskhan, and a water type can help cover heatran, garchomp, and lando-t, since heatran is weak to water and the others are weak to ice (which a lot of water types have an ice coverage move). Particularly, gyarados. I'll talk more about gyara in a minute.

Which categories am I less enthusiastic about?
(1) Competitive/Defiant: milotic is the only option I particularly like right now, and I'd rather have gyarados, I think.

(2) Support: the only option here I'm interested in is togekiss, and that would duplicate type weaknesses like whoa. I still think we need to focus on adding more offensive options to the team.

(3) Other Mega: I like Mega Venusaur. As much as I also like mega kangaskhan, I don't want to reverse our previous decision on mega venusaur. I still think venu can work for our team, especially with dual intimidate support. The only option I'm interested in here is mega charizard y because that would only require that we shift the focus (and EV spread) of our current proposed venusaur (going from built like a mega to built like a sun-sweeper) rather than removing it from our list.

---

So, now let's talk about gyarados. :)

This is the set that MythTrainerInfinity has used and recommended for us:

Mr. Fish (Gyarados) (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Ice Fang
- Taunt / Protect / Earthquake

Now, at first, I was in favor of moving more towards bulky attacker, but after reading ethan06's threat list, where he listed that kangaskhan, heatran, landorus-t, and garchomp are still not covered by our team, I think the more offensive gyara would work for us better, since gyara can actually cover all the threats listed. This also addresses some of Age of Kings' concerns, giving gyara a bit more offense prowess or potentially a spread coverage move to help gyara clear the board. The one change I'd be interested in making is adding protect, since the second we click ddance, we turn gyara from a low priority into a top priority, and we'll likely need to be able to get it through turns while a teammate can remove threats to gyara. We could also use earthquake, which would give us a spread move.

Kangaskhan - Dual intimidate (combined with hitmontop)
Heatran - Waterfall
Lando-t - Ice Fang or Waterfall (Likely to carry SE rock slide though)
Garchomp - Ice Fang (Will take rough skin recoil, though, plus SE rock slide)

Soo...I started this post with little idea of what I wanted, and ended with a much more firm idea. What do you guys think?

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I'm all for Gyarados.

I tried EQ a long time ago, but I struggled a bit more against things like the dreaded Dark Void Smeargle and (non-Gengar) Perish Songs. So I opted for Taunt and never looked back.

If you want another easy to use mon that can be quite deadly... I'd suggest Greninja.

ProteanShake (Greninja) (M) @ Focus Sash/Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 100 Atk / 156 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Fire]/Dark Pulse/Taunt/Extrasensory/Water move/U-Turn
- Rock Slide
- Mat Block

EVs are old and probably need tweaking, but... Rock Slide will take care of Charizard-Ys without Defense investment. Ice Beam is for them Dragons and do I really need to explain Mat Block?

Mat Block is 0 priority, so this is the only protect type move that is not affected by Feint.

Another perk is if you run Rock Slide and Ice Beam... You can avoid Sandstorm or Hail damage and still use Focus Sash.

Life Orb Dark Pulse will probably nuke most Meowstics.

 

[ethan06]

I like Gyarados. However, I'm not really in favour of running Earthquake on it as out of our team, only Thundurus wants to be on the field when Gyarados wants to use it (and Heatran definitely doesn't) - not to mention Thundurus + Gyarados both being out at once opens us up to Rock Slide in a big way. Would Rock Slide be a good option on Gyarados itself, especially given that we don't have it anywhere else yet? We have Rock coverage in Heatran, but no Rock Slide so far, and spread + flinch is just too good to pass up. Something like:

Gyarados @ Rocky Helmet/Leftovers/Charti Berry (idk)
Jolly
Intimidate
252 Atk/252 Spd/4 HP
-Waterfall
-Ice Fang
-Rock Slide
-Taunt/Dragon Dance/Protect

When I have a moment I'll run some calcs and see if I can come up with a bulkier spread. I still have some concerns about Landorus, between Intimidate and Rock Slide... I really think our last mon should be a special attacker that at least isn't weak to Landorus-T: Aegislash would be good if it had an Air Balloon, and if it doesn't then it's forced to choose between hitting Gyarados with Rock Slide and potentially eating a Shadow Ball, or hitting Aegislash with Earthquake and potentially eating a Waterfall. In short, I'm in support of Gyarados but I'm not convinced that we have Landorus (and, by extension, Rock Slide spam) completely covered...

 

[Age of Kings]

Sorry guys I'm the worst, fuck irl >.>

ethan06 I feel that Landorus, although it has emphasis on spread moves, is somewhat checked by Venusaur. It's one of the main things it offers over Charizard-Y. That being said, owing to my inexperience, I'm not sure if Landorus is actually used for coverage or for Rock Slide spam to try and get those flinches in. In the latter case, we are covered for it type-wise but I'm not really sure how better to deal with incidental flinches.

252+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 68 Def Mega Venusaur: 30-36 (16 - 19.2%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 68 Def Mega Venusaur: 60-72 (32 - 38.5%) -- 96.3% chance to 3HKO

-1 252+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 68 Def Mega Venusaur: 21-25 (11.2 - 13.3%) -- possible 8HKO
-1 252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 68 Def Mega Venusaur: 40-48 (21.3 - 25.6%) -- 0.3% chance to 4HKO

Meanwhile:
180+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 76-91 (46.3 - 55.4%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So, if it manages to be on the same side of the field as Venu and Hitmontop, it's likely it's pretty well taken care of. Garchomp is a little more shaky but we're a bit more secure if it isn't Scarfed.

I would also agree with Gyarados since it helps with most of our outstanding problems. I'm bad and still haven't done calcs, but I would support Adamant for offensive prowess, especially if we have speed control or Tailwind covered.

EDIT: I was thinking Waterfall / Ice Fang / Icy Wind / Taunt. I know Icy Wind sounds like shit but AoE speed drop + not affected by Landorus + additional Taunt user. We can of course drop it for another spread move, maybe Rock Slide, but it's best if we have Tailwind behind it.

 

[ethan06]

I was thinking Waterfall / Ice Fang / Icy Wind / Taunt. I know Icy Wind sounds like shit but AoE speed drop + not affected by Landorus + additional Taunt user. We can of course drop it for another spread move, maybe Rock Slide, but it's best if we have Tailwind behind it.

See, this is why Suicune is still a very attractive option to me. I wanna throw a complete Suicune idea out there to compete with Gyarados:

Suicune @ Leftovers
Pressure
Modest
252 HP/108 Def/148 Sp. Atk
-Scald
-Icy Wind
-Tailwind
-Protect/Ice Beam/Snarl

EVs ensure the Ice Beam OHKO onto 0/0 Garchomp. If we opt to run something else a basic 252 HP/252+ Def/4 Sp. Atk spread works just fine.

To be clear, Gyarados is still a cool option as a Dragon Dance win con but I think Suicune fills far more niches than Gyarados does. Where Gyarados brings double Intimidate and double Taunt, Suicune gives us another special attacker, a less pathetic Icy Wind, Tailwind, a solid check to Landorus that isn't hurt by Intimidate, and the opportunity to spread burns with Scald (particularly against Mega Kangaskhan). Suicune also doesn't make Rock Slide an issue like Gyarados does. Sorry to be difficult and make a u-turn like this (I literally changed my mind lol) - I'm still happy with Gyarados if Suicune isn't feasible. Just another option to consider. c:

EDIT: Calcs

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 108 Def Suicune: 57-67 (27.5 - 32.3%) -- 70.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 108 Def Suicune: 51-61 (24.6 - 29.4%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 108 Def Suicune: 114-135 (55 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (still scary :c )

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Gyarados cannot learn Rock Slide iirc. It can learn Stone Miss, but I have a policy of avoiding using anything below 85% acc. I'd rather not lose a game breaker 20% of the time, y'know.

I love stacking flinches, it not only frustrates the opponent, but can allow you some leeway.

Let's do some math...

Let's say your mon is in the middle and Rock Slides...
To flinch at least one opponent...
.9 x .3 = .27 flinch chance for Singles

1-.27= .73

Now, we will need to calculate .73 to the third power. Which is roughly 38.9% of not having anything flinch! So about a 61.1% chance to flinch at least one mon taking accuracy into account. Not bad, eh?

Edit: Keep in mind my season 3 team has Waterfall Gyarados, Air Slash Togekiss, Iron Head/Rock Slide Garchomp, Iron Head Mega Mawile, and Swagger Meowstic...

Let's say I Swagger something with Meowstic and Garchomp uses Rock Slide. Rock Slide's regular flinch is 27% taking accuracy into consideration and Swagger is 90% acc, so that's a 45% chance of punching oneself in confusion...

1-.45=.55 and .55*.27=.1485 .55-.1485 = .4015

That means if I attempt Swagger and Rock Slide on something... there's a 59.85% chance of my opponent not being able to do anything.

Let's say I attempt Swagger on something slower than Togekiss while Kiss uses Air Slash... .6*.95 = 57% chance of le flinch on its own. With Swagger... 45% of .43 is .1935.

.43-.1935 = a mere 23.65% chance of the opponent attacking.

Don't look at Rock Slide as just a weaker Stone Edge, but look at the opportunity of the opponent not attacking at all.

For fun let's add another Iron Head on that (vs. Trick Roomers) 30% of 23.65% is... 7.095%
Soooo 23.65% - 7.095% = 16.555% chance of a Trick Roomer using Trick Room with an Iron Head, Serene Grace Air Slash, and Swagger used against it and this considers missing!

How many Triples players integrate flinches into their strategies?