CAP 19 CAP 19 - Part 7 - Secondary Ability Discussion

[Birkal]

We've got stats! So now we're moving into a selection of our second ability for this CAP. Listen to the words of ginganinja, as he is our Ability Leader for CAP 19. Now, we have a lot of options here, so follow along closely.

Some general rules for this discussion:

• Custom abilities are banned. No exceptions. Posts suggesting custom abilities will be deleted.
• There are ability banlists for the different stages of ability discussion. Posts suggesting banned abilities will be deleted.
• Flavor abilities do not have any place in this thread. Do not bring up flavor reasoning. Posts that rely on flavor reasoning will be deleted.

The following abilities are banned from this discussion:

Air Lock
Aura Break
Bad Dreams
Color Change
Dark Aura
Defeatist
Fairy Aura
Forecast
Fur Coat
Huge Power
Illusion
Imposter
Moody
Multitype
Parental Bond
Protean
Pure Power
Shadow Tag
Slow Start
Stance Change
Teravolt
Truant
Turboblaze
Victory Star
Wonder Guard
Zen Mode

Arena Trap
Drizzle
Drought
Magic Bounce
Magic Guard
Prankster
Sand Stream
Snow Warning
Speed Boost

Big Pecks
Friend Guard
Grass Pelt
Healer
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Pickup
Run Away
Symbiosis
Telepathy​

Be careful not to discuss any of these abilities. If you want to learn why they're banned from discussion, you can check out the Policy Review threads that created this list here and here.

This thread will be open for discussion once ginganinja has posted his opening remarks and questions.

--------------------

Concept:

Name: Einherjar ~Acta Est Fabula~

Description: A Pokemon that dissuades your opponent from fainting it, or can even leave it's presence on the field felt even after it faints.

Justification: When a Pokemon faints, it's usually thought of as the battle having gotten down to a 5-6. However, we've yet to discover if a Pokemon can leave a lasting impression on the battle even after having fainted; be it through moves like Healing Wish and Destiny Bond, placing hazards that the opponent can't remove as their removal has been taken care of, or by leaving an opponent's key member weakened and/or taken out.

Questions To Be Answered:

• How can a Pokemon leave a long-lasting effect on the rest of the battle with just it's moves?
• How the hell is it different from simply ramming a sacrificial martyr into your opponent's team and hoping it punches holes in it?
• Building on the previous question, is it possible to build this Pokemon as a defensive threat rather than a "Glass Cannon"?
• Is it even possible for a Pokemon to leave a lasting effect on on the battle, even after it faints?
• Could changing your opponent's way of thinking even be plausible? From, "I need to take CAP X out!", to, "Damn, if I take CAP X out, I'll be in trouble...!"

Type: Electric/Poison
Abilities: Storm Drain / ???
Stats: 60 HP / 57 Atk / 119 Def / 131 SpA / 98 SpD / 100 Spe

Leadership Team:

Pwnemon- Topic Leader
ginganinja - Ability Leader
srk1214 - Typing Leader
alexwolf - Movepool Leader
Deck Knight - Stats Leader

 

[ginganinja]

Time to start on your secondary ability, and I think it’s important to iron out a few quick points

Firstly, (and this should really be taken as read), I don’t want people suggesting abilities that outclass the primary ability. You can suggest something that perhaps situationally handles something better than the primary ability, but I don’t want a Cawmodore scenario, where the secondary ability 100% outclassed the primary one.

Secondly, I don’t really want the abilities brought up in the Primary poll, being resubmitted again for the secondary ability poll, but Pwnemon has mentioned that there are compelling arguments for and against allowing them to be submitted, so on reflection I’ll let them in. I would prefer a small paragraph or outline statement with the submission though, supporting while you think that particular ability is inferior to Storm Drain. What I really do want to see however, are abilities that give this CAP some leeway in dealing with something that might be particularly annoying to either it, or the partner it wants to work with (for example, Gyarados). As Birkal pointed out, we have a lot of options here, so I don’t intend to do a sweeping banlist to start this thread off. So long as people remember that our primary ability is our “preferred” ability, I don’t foresee any problems.

 

[GoldNinja]

A possible secondary abilitiy to consider is Cursed Body. Cursed Body would have the effect of having a chance to disable a move directed towards a Gyarados switch-in, such as WoW. This would sometimes allow Gyarados to safely come in and set up on Pokemon that would ordinarily be dangerous. A CAP 19 vs. Charizard X situation comes to mind. This is inferior because it is so situational that it would rarely be useful, but it could nonetheless be useful in niche scenarios.

 

[Salt]

A couple quick suggestions to get the ball rolling:

Overcoat or Vital Spirit/Insomnia to ward off Breloom and other users of sleep moves and act as a pseudo-Sap Sipper. The only times where this would really be useful is if we need to switch into Breloom and nothing on our team can afford to be put to sleep. CAP 19 would be a stellar Breloom switch-in were it not for Spore, so adding a Sleep-immunity to take it would alleviate any possible concerns of Breloom crippling a key team member. If you have something that isn't useful against the enemy team to use as sleep fodder or a Grass-type to take the Spore, then choosing this ability would not be preferable. Sap Sipper seems a bit much, considering it's grants an immunity to all Grass-type attacks and also provides us with a Leech Seed immunity. However, given that we can't make use of the Attack boost because of our low Attack and that we resist Grass already, it might be something to consider.

I've mulled over the ability Filter for some time as well. The most notable (and perhaps the only useful) thing it does for us is lets us survive Mega Gardevoir's Psyshock. That way, we aren't killed by any Mega Gardevoir who decide to risk the speed tie. However, I don't expect this ability to gain traction considering its uses are extremely limited and situational. Mega Gardevoir's relevance to the concept has been debated to death already, and it's clear that the majority of people don't consider it a significant issue. That said, it'd still be nice to have an alternative way to make sure it isn't a huge threat to us because I'm still in the mind that Gardevoir is something that shouldn't be entirely written off.

No Competitive Ability is probably a good route to take considering that most other abilities that don't outclass or even compete with Storm Drain are extremely situational and generally not favorable to run over Storm Drain. If we can't really accomplish anything significant with a secondary ability, then it'd probably be a good idea to avoid any potential distractions.

 

[Mova]

I can support Vital Spirit to prevent spam from Spore, while avoiding a stat boost for a stat it doesn't even need. Also, the CAP 2x resists Grass anyway and has decent bulk, so Sap Sipper isn't really necessary.

You all may already know, but this CAP has immunity to Water attacks, paralysis, and poisoning. As such, Sap Sipper would be overkill.

EDIT: srk brought up a good point regarding Static. In most ways, it is inferior to Storm Drain, but it could still work somehow. The main problem is if the CAP is hit by Earthquake, which does not trigger contact. Also, the CAP has higher Defense than Special Defense, so I'm not sure if contact matters.

 

[Bughouse]

I do believe Static is still a good ability for this CAP and I believe most anyone reasonable would agree that Storm Drain outclasses it. Storm Drain is an immunity ability to one of the most commonly spammed attack types, enabling CAP 19 to comfortably switch into S-rank threats Keldeo and Azumarill, as well as other Pokemon like Rotom-W, Crocune, Alomomola, and the entire archetype of Rain teams.

Static still however has that chance to cripple anything that hits the CAP with a contact move, which is obviously beneficial for many things that may try to set up and sweep later in the game.

Other than that, though, I'd probably lean towards NCA.

 

[FierceDeity1]

I support passive abilities such as Cursed Body and Static mentioned before. Abilities like those should not detract from the primary, as they really dont do our CAP any direct good, as opposed to a free switch-in and boost. Another thing is, when seeing our CAP on team preview, the foe will be wary of locking Azumarill into Aqua Jet or Waterfall, so will Play Rough or Superpower instead. Then, our ability can still do something to Iit. If luck isnt on our side, there is still no way of knowing what ability we have until we Disable/Paralyse/Burn them or they risk a Water move on us.

If we want an ability like this, I will throw Gooey out there. It may or may not be outclassed by Static, but its still an option.

 

[OverlordDerp]

Bringing back a choice from previous threads of discussion, I'd say Trace would be an interesting choice. If you want to use this CAP to fulfill is main prerogative a different way (i.e. not through Storm Drain), Trace would be a good way to take advantage of the enemies' switch-ins, being able to Trace abilities like Prankster.

Although this does seem to work in counterpoint with the idea and role of this CAP, I would like to see some discussion done with Mummy. It's a very interesting ability that can take advantage of its amazing Defense stat, but still bait Earthquakes from Excadrill. However, this CAP will manage to make interesting plays if it is able to switch into a physical move to negate an ability, providing rather useful switch-ins in at least 2 scenarios; one of which is if the opponent switches out, or if they KO this CAP while still holding onto Mummy.

 

[NumberCruncher]

I'd like to propose Sheer Force, Serene Grace, and No Guard as potential abilities. They're all practical abilities to have, but they don't overshadow the natural boost and immunity of Storm Drain.

In the case of Sheer Force, it allows for a more consistent boost to attacks, but it doesn't have the immunity attached to Storm Drain, and a Pokemon with a Storm Drain trigger on it will hit harder than a Pokemon with Sheer Force, and will still have the Perks that come with the move.

Serene Grace encourages moves like Discharge and Sludge Bomb, which means CAP won't hit nearly as hard, but it comes with Status Platforming. Because CAPs best stat right now is its Special Attack, it really wants heavier hitting moves. In addition, it doesn't really have the defensive capabilities to capitalize off the statuses, which can make Serene Grace tough to justify, but good enough for gimmicky sets, which is really what we really want out of the secondary ability anyway. Something it can use, but really shouldn't.

No Guard allows for Zap Cannon and possibly Fire Blast to be options. Zap Cannon is a strong move that people could run as a gimmick, and Fire Blast lets us deal with Amoongus and Excadrill, which aren't really good things to bring Gyarados in against. However, the benefits it's likely to give us when we don't have any real way to exploit Gunk Shot is actually pretty minimal, but it's still an option.

I'm also tempted to say that any move that triggers on contact has a high chance of overshadowing the benefits of Storm Drain based on having broader applications, so I'd heavily discourage abilities like Mummy, Static, Gooey, ect.

 

[Vann Accessible]

Liquid Ooze could be a nice niche candidate ability, seeing as how it deters use of Leech Seed and helps CAP19 wear down Ferrothorn and Stally Seed Breloom. Through virtue of its typing, CAP 19 also happens to resist all the draining attacks: Giga Drain, Drain Punch, and the seldom used Parabolic Charge, Leech Life and Draining Kiss, which would also go well with this ability.

I generally like the sleep immune abilities Vital Spirit and Insomnia as well, however, but I have a feeling Safety Googles is going to be a popular item on this fellow regardless, giving it pseudo-Overcoat, while also maintaining its water immunity. However, these abilities give it a bit of wiggle room with its item if you really want CAP19 to be able to switch into Breloom and Amooungus more reliably, and care less about Keldeo and Azurrmaril.

 

[Celever]

Looking at the concept, the main ability I can think of working is Aftermath, since it leaves a lasting effect on the battle once the Pokémon is gone -- if it was KO'd by a contact move -- by taking a chunk of HP off of its assailant. While this has a possibility of overshadowing Storm Drain, I feel that unlike Static, Gooey and the like, Aftermath is far more situational. Static is any contact move, whereas Aftermath only applies to contact moves which KO Einherjar. This also answers the final question in the theory post:
"Could changing your opponent's way of thinking even be plausible? From, "I need to take CAP X out!", to, "Damn, if I take CAP X out, I'll be in trouble...!"
Let's say, for example, your opponent is using an Azumarill with Aqua Jet. It just took a powerful attack, putting it at below 25% of its HP. The opponent would have to examine the team with Einherjar on it first and assert whether they should just give up their Azumarill now, or if they should switch to another Pokémon and save their Azumarill for shenanigans later. In fact, the Azumarill could be above 25% and the opponent would still have to assert whether having that amount of damage on their Azumarill is worth it over taking the HP out of something else, or possibly just switching to a special attacker with a non-contact move. Once again, it is really quite situational, so I don't feel Aftermath would overpower Storm Drain, but I feel like on certain teams and in certain situations it could be very good, and it fits the original theory of the Pokémon very well.

my first real post in CAP how bad was it?

 

[P3DS]

I'd like to put forward Infiltrator, since I'm not one for turning it's secondary ability into a NCA, so this is a suggestion. This seems a little inferior, but that's the point, it is inferior. But it is a viable option. Now, substitute can be a pain in the neck to deal with for the likes of gyarados, since you get a 2HKO, instead of an OHKO, and with gyarados' limited access to recovery moves, we need to remove substitute users, since they can damage gyarados reducing it's time on the field. Especially sub-seed abusers, since they can sit around whilst you set up and then slowly drain away your HP, and sub up when you hit. Since CAP 19 can deal some heavy damage to grass types with poison STAB, it will help greatly. Also, it lets it deal with toxic sub gliscor too, if CAP 19 gets water/ice moves (It can get HP ice). As you can see, it mainly stops abuse of sub-set up too. Storm drain wins in certain situations, but infiltrator does have it's niche

 

[Karoshi]

I am going to suggest Competitive as it punishes both Sticky Web and Intimidate, both of which harm Gyarados's ability to sweep. The ability is also still worst then it's primary Storm Drain due to it's situational properties compared to Storm Drain's water immunity and it's stat boosting consistency. That said it is still an ability that can help prevent Gyarados's checks from coming in or, in the case of Sticky Web, setting up. Other then that, I support Overcoat for it's ability to ignore Spore as well as Sand/Hail that would normally wear down CAP19.

 

[Ununhexium]

I am in agreement with Salt that Vital Spirit / Insomnia or No Competitive Ability is the way to go. Anti-sleep abilities allow us to switch into Pokemon such as Amoonguss and Breloom more easily (which both are annoying to Gyarados). Meanwhile, NCA seems like a good option as most other things either overshadow Storm Drain or are irrelevant to the concept.

 

[CerberusSONE]

Supporting Karoshi's suggestion of Competitive.
CAP19's primary ability is kind of narrow already; Storm Drain requires a Water move to boost its SpA +1, whereas Competitive isn't as broad. I really do not see Competitive overshadowing Storm Drain since most opponents are trying to KO CAP19 with SE EQ, and not lowering its stats.

 

[NumberCruncher]

I'm also tempted to say Competitive is a solid ability to give it. It isn't better than Storm Drain by a long shot, but it gives it a way to deal with a few random things that might shut down Gyarados (Mega Manetric especially). Not only that, but Gyarados teams love to Stealth Rocks the opponent to give Gyarados an easier time of killing bulky 'mons, so CAP can punish Defog-ing the support Gyarados gets from other teammates.

 

[Sun King]

I was prepared to say Overcoat before this opened, so I absolutely support that. My reasoning has been covered by people above, so nothing needs to be added.

Something else that could work--given our stat spread--is Technician. I don't think it outclasses Storm Drain because it's very move dependent. Basically we would be using it for extra power for our HP of choice (something I deem to be extremely important if we want to remove Gyarados' defensive counters)

 

[nyttyn]

No Competitive Ability, and ESPECIALLY not Competitive

Competitive is a really risky gotcha that might not even pay off, and could potentially be very powerful. +2 SpAtk is no laughing matter, especially since it works off Defog.

If you don't understand why this is a bad thing,

[09:41] <nyttyn> !usage Bisharp
[09:41] <TIBot> Bisharp - #18 in OU | Usage: 11.79093% | Raw count: 363,741 | Weight: 0.0771824673102

Granted, we have no priority, but we are also considerably bulky and speedy, with a way more than decent Special Attack stat. CAP19 will just wind up becoming the premier anti-defog mon (especially since it nails pretty much every defogger save Lati@s), which is a very bad thing.

 

[DHR-107]

For once, this has actually driven me to post.

Competitive is one of the worst abilities to give our CaP. We already have 130SPA, we really do not need to boost that. At +2 we turn into some ridiculous wall breaker/sweeper which we do not want. As nyttyn said, it ruins everything.

I'm falling into the NCA crowd really. I think Storm Drain is already sufficient. NCA allows everyone to know what you are running, which automatically puts pressure on if you make a mistake with a choiced water move.

 

[NumberCruncher]

I was prepared to say Overcoat before this opened, so I absolutely support that. My reasoning has been covered by people above, so nothing needs to be added.

Something else that could work--given our stat spread--is Technician. I don't think it outclasses Storm Drain because it's very move dependent. Basically we would be using it for extra power for our HP of choice (something I deem to be extremely important if we want to remove Gyarados' defensive counters)

Technician seems like a dangerous option to go with. Given that Technician opens up Acid Spray and Charge Beam, this seems like it might become a Pokemon that forces a kill because it becomes too hot to handle after only a few connects.

 

[Burt Racecar]

I throw support behind Overcoat and NCA.
Overcoat is clearly not as good as Storm Drain, yet it has potential to give CAP19 a niche, firstly as a hard check to the most common sleep inducing moves spore and sleep powder. It could also find itself functioning on the rare sand team with immunity to passive weather damage.

But yeah, we should definitely steer clear of Competitive for the reasoning stated in the above posts.
I also think we should avoid Sheer Force at this point, it would be fine for a primary ability, but not secondary imo. As our most reliable STABs are pretty much guaranteed to have an additional affect. Furthermore, there is no guarantee of getting a +1 boost from storm drain, but you're always going to have the 33% boost+no recoil life orb of Sheer Force activated.

 

[Sun King]

Technician seems like a dangerous option to go with. Given that Technician opens up Acid Spray and Charge Beam, this seems like it might become a Pokemon that forces a kill because it becomes too hot to handle after only a few connects.

Let's not assume a move pool before we have one. I have more to add to this, but I'm busy, so I'm going to edit in the rest later.

 

[Vann Accessible]

Competitive is a bad idea, because it shifts focus away from Storm Drain, by making it a frightening Defog absorber. Regarding Mega Gyar's vulnerability to Sticky Web, Gyarados already enjoys Rapid Spin/Defog support due to its Stealth Rock weakness, so SW falls into this same category making Competitive redundant in this regard. As far as Intimidate goes, we're trying to lure Landorus T to kill CAP19 (and Gyarados already beats it 1 on 1), and CAP19 can already handle Mega Manectric by tanking a non-STAB hit and retaliating with a strong STAB Sludge Wave.

Technician is also dangerous because it cannot be controlled. It allows CAP19 use a 90 Hidden Power of any type it chooses, giving it limitless coverage options and allows it to beat things we want it to lose to.

 

[Mova]

Technician and Competitive are very dangerous options due to their sheer power, as stated above. As I've thought about it during the night, I'm leaning more toward No Competitive Ability, since Storm Drain is already good enough by itself.

 

[Ignus]

So I want everyone to remember Pwnemon's post from waaaaay back in concept assessment. The way we approach our secondary ability should be entirely decided by these three criteria.

When you think about it, there are three main factors at play in determining the strength of CAP 19.

1. How "selective" the CAP is. Abomasnow and Wonder Guard Scizor can both "filter" in Fire-types to kill them, but the Scizor is obviously going to a better job of making sure it's killed by the right things.
2. How threatening the CAP is. A Burmy and a Genesect are both easiest to kill with Fire-type moves. But I'm obviously more likely to kill the Genesect with a Fire-type than a Burmy if there's an Mgyara in back. i can afford the time it takes to slowly kill Burmy, but Genesect might be worth the risk.
3. How immediately game-ending the backup is. Whether I have a Wish Vaporeon or a Gyarados in back, both appreciate free switch-ins on Fire types. But I'm a lot less likely to KO something with a Fire type if they have the Gyarados.

Arguably, Storm Drain is probably the best ability when it comes to fulfilling 1 and 2 for CAP, and its typing helps remove MGyara's counters, which helps out with the third. So, as far as I'm concerned, No Competitive Ability would be a perfectly fine choice when it comes to a second choice. Why should we mess up what we already know will work? Giving it an ability like Competitive or No-Guard definitely increase our threat, but they don't increase how selective CAP is nor do they make our sweeper more game-ending then our primary ability. Similarly, an ability like aftermath or iron barbs increases CAP's threat, but does little to increase the amount of pokemon Gyarados can set up on and hardly do anything to help the clean-up sweep. I don't see any reason to give CAP an ability that makes it preform sub-par when we already have an ability like Storm Drain that already does what we need it to.

Therefore, we have about two choices for a type of secondary ability. We have to either:

• Further increase our selectiveness of counters, by choosing a secondary ability that grants an immunity that is different from our primary ability. Overlapping with Storm Drain is redundant and therefore useless.
• Something that preforms all of the above criteria, but preforms one or more of the above better then Storm Drain. Static is a good example of this. It is better suited to preform the third and second criteria then Storm Drain, while still helping keep our counters to primarily non-contact users.

That's all I got for now.