Smeargle sort of filled the void QuiverPass Venomoth left, though Smeargle has the advantage of using other boosting moves for physical teammates, while Venomoth is arguably better as it could use the boosts itself, not to mention somewhat better survivability
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np: XY UU Stage 3 - Calling [Diggersby: BL, Next: Scolipede]
- Thread starter kokoloko
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To me it isn't so much the strategy of smash/quiver pass that is necessarily bad, I mean Gorebyss/Huntail/Combusken (to a degree with BU + Speed boost) don't exactly scream broken with the strategy up in UU, rather I find it is the combination of a boosting move + baton pass + sleeping move that has proven to be wholly dangerous in combination. Sleep is what I see Smeargle and Venomoth have in common, through the status, they are able unlike other baton passers to create set up opportunities as well as deter possible switch ins thanks to the imminent threat of sleep. This makes them very effective passers unlike the other alternatives. If I recall this is was one of the reasons Deniss (the guy that made the current archeatype that fits in UU) chose Smeargle over Scol as sleep was a considerable factor in helping him to create set up opportunities, due to the imminent threat of sleep limiting possible switch ins or simply keeping opponents at their toes.
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Deniss team uses Smeargle because of Geomancy + Cotton Guard + Baton Pass. His set doesn't even use Spore.
IIRC the last move can be slashed between Taunt/Spore/Dark Void, regardless, since you won't know what the last move is you'll be on your toes -- the possibility of sleep is just too dangerous (and with access to both better accuracy). Taunt of course helps in preventing WW/Roar or taunt.
The problem isn't the sleep. The combination of Azelf setting up screens and exploding before going to Whimsicott to Taunt any opposing taunters with like the fastest taunt in the game, whilst being able to get up Tailwind before Mementoing to Smeargle, which with screens and the opponent at half offences it makes Smeargle's bulk look good. 55/35/35 bulk looking good! Following this, Tailwind allows Smeargle to Taunt any opposing taunter unless it is fucking Prankster, or/and then procedes to boost one of its defensive stats to crazy levels in a turn, and then the other one in the next turn, essentially passing +3 Def and +2 SpAtk, SpDef and Speed to any participant, most likely Espeon because that is the point where you have either Perish Song, Haze, land a lucky crit or get absolutely fucked. You like legit need to BP or hard switch to your Sableye or your own Prankster Taunter on the turn that the Whimsi Mementos or you have little chance of stopping it.
My main problem with this strategy lies on Geomancy, because the ability to double 3 stats in one turn is utterly ridiculous. Yeah you can run Quiver Dance to replace Geomancy, but at +1 Speed you are still outsped by quite a few strong scarfers that want to pummel you, at +1 SpDef you are still not that hard to break on the special side and at +1 SpAtk you aren't hitting quite hard enough for most receivers to effectively sweep. That leeway gives the opponent a chance to switch something in on the turn that it goes for Quiver Dance 1 and effectively stop it then and there. At +2 after one turn it is too bloody hard in most cases. This is why I think that Geomancy should be banned. Banning a single move isn't really a complex ban, and it only effects one Pokemon.
Though of course other options may prove to be broken too, but honestly, Geomancy seems to be the most overpowering feature of Smeargle and I feel should get the hell out of here. If other moves prove to be broken (though I doubt as broken) then they can be removed later.
My main problem with this strategy lies on Geomancy, because the ability to double 3 stats in one turn is utterly ridiculous. Yeah you can run Quiver Dance to replace Geomancy, but at +1 Speed you are still outsped by quite a few strong scarfers that want to pummel you, at +1 SpDef you are still not that hard to break on the special side and at +1 SpAtk you aren't hitting quite hard enough for most receivers to effectively sweep. That leeway gives the opponent a chance to switch something in on the turn that it goes for Quiver Dance 1 and effectively stop it then and there. At +2 after one turn it is too bloody hard in most cases. This is why I think that Geomancy should be banned. Banning a single move isn't really a complex ban, and it only effects one Pokemon.
Though of course other options may prove to be broken too, but honestly, Geomancy seems to be the most overpowering feature of Smeargle and I feel should get the hell out of here. If other moves prove to be broken (though I doubt as broken) then they can be removed later.
considering veno got the boot simply for quiverpass (offensive potential notwithstanding), i don't see why smeargle shouldn't, especially when we've got a couple of good recipients with the drop in espy and toge.
smeargle is pretty much aids tbh and running qd over geo means that smeargle can run focus sash over power herb. while hazards will still break it, it now has the ability to just screw your attack and spore you, getting a free turn to boost or bp out.
honestly, smeargle is pretty much veno 2.0 at this point.
smeargle is pretty much aids tbh and running qd over geo means that smeargle can run focus sash over power herb. while hazards will still break it, it now has the ability to just screw your attack and spore you, getting a free turn to boost or bp out.
honestly, smeargle is pretty much veno 2.0 at this point.
While I agree with you that it is Geomancy that should be suspected, and not Smeargle or Baton Pass, there are viable ways to deal with GeoPass strategy in UU.
Seems to me that the problem could be solved more easily by banning smeargle from using baton pass. Wouldn't be the first time for this sort of ban to occur in regards to smeargle either since I think I read somewhere that in the ADV era, smeargle was banned from using ingrain at the time.
aaand thats why we avoid using complex bans. Opens up too many precedents. Basically all Smeargle does is set up stuff. Be it hazards, trick room or a baton pass, its stats make sure he can't use his offensive moves effectively.
Smeargle is not the real problem, and unless it proves itself broken with other bp sets, i see no reason for banning one of his few uses (as ironic as that may sound, given how big his movepool is). Geomancy, though... IMO needs further testing.
That being said, ive been able to beat variations of that team. Tbh i didnt play against aero kiss versions yet. A combination of raw power (cloyster) and multiple tricks allow my ho to beat it quite consistently.
RowDog idk how you could type all that and think Geomancy is the broken factor. If Smeargle didn't have Baton Pass no one would think about using Geomancy on it. Yes, Geomancy is the best boosting move in the game (seriously Gamefreak how could you think you could balance a a boosting move by making it two turns O.o??), but to use it effectively you need the combination of movepool, stats, and to a lesser extent typing. This is in contrast to Moody or Double Team, where you could hax your way to a win using nearly anything. We shouldn't fall into the complex trap like the other tiers when a clear and simple solution is right in front of us.
Ban Smeagol
Ban Smeagol
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The problem with banning Baton Pass imo is it hurts many other mons that are not broken with it IE Umbreon, Togekiss, Combusken. They all take skill to use well, and for Eeveelutions Baton Pass is purely to gain momentum, it seems unfair to take away their niche just because one pokemon is broken with it. I haven't run into a smeargle team yet (thank god) so i have no first hand experience, but i feel Geomancy or just banning Smeargle is the answer. Baton Pass kills some strategies in UU that are by no means broken, and helpful to mons who get them.
Would the banning of Chickenpass be a good precedent to refer to?
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear: I meant banning Smeargle. It's movepool is just too good fore the meta. Baton Pass as well as Geomancy are not inherently broken enough to warrant a ban.
Ok my bad i misunderstood when you said that the simple solution, thinking it was baton pass. We're basically on the same page than. Also one thing i forgot is Magic Coat screws over ways to stop Smeargle like Taunt, Spore beats the second switch unless its a Grass type, I think that it's just too good even if it could only SmashPass or QuiverPass.
It's not that baton passing boosts is hard to beat per say, its the specialization required to deal with it. Something like Froslass hazard stack teams inherently shit on Baton Pass strategies with their numerous taunt users. The problem is the extent to which Balance and Stall need to go out of their way to deal with such strategies.
I wouldn't care for both Smeargle and Espeon going tbh, they both are annoying as shit to deal with and have ridiculous team support capability.
I wouldn't care for both Smeargle and Espeon going tbh, they both are annoying as shit to deal with and have ridiculous team support capability.
The only thing on Froslass teams thats beats bp is Sableye. All bp teams carry 4 taunters 2 of which are prankster and the other 2 are usually under tailwind. This makes it very hard for Froslass, Crobat, and mega aero to taunt. When bp teams face Froslass teams there is always a 50/50 when Smeargle is out. Sableye can come in Smeargle as it boosts and then Taunt it. However, Smeargle can easily Taunt/Spore predicting the Sableye allowing it to pass at least one Geomancy and possibly a Cotton Guard if the Smeargle predicts the Sableye again.
I would be perfectly happy if Smeargle is banned.
I would be perfectly happy if Smeargle is banned.
inb4 Mental Herb Sableye. Or are there any other Pokemon that get Overcoat and Taunt? Or Oblivious/another Ability that blocks Taunt while they can use Taunt themselves?
here's something I've been considering:
if we decide to ban baton pass, then there's very real possibility for scolipede to be UU. in addition, we keep smeargle and all it's nonbroken sets and get venomoth back.
on the other hand, we also kill the few other nonbroken BP strats. but aside from like celebi, and maybe togekiss, none of them are a huge loss imo.
so yeah at this point I'm trying to decide which option is better. or if anything even needs to be done at all tbh. I haven't had too much experience with the new meta due to real life getting in the way lately, so I'll know more when I play some more.
if we decide to ban baton pass, then there's very real possibility for scolipede to be UU. in addition, we keep smeargle and all it's nonbroken sets and get venomoth back.
on the other hand, we also kill the few other nonbroken BP strats. but aside from like celebi, and maybe togekiss, none of them are a huge loss imo.
so yeah at this point I'm trying to decide which option is better. or if anything even needs to be done at all tbh. I haven't had too much experience with the new meta due to real life getting in the way lately, so I'll know more when I play some more.
kokoloko I've already expressed my resistance to this concept, but I'll do so in more depth for everyone here
here are some things that are perfectly healthy with bp that shouldn't have to suffer the banhammer
1. baton pass espeon: baton pass distinguishes espeon from zam, and it lets it run an awesome cm + baton pass + 2 attack offensive set that can really do some work
2. baton pass umbreon: baton pass allows umbreon to not be complete fodder for set-up sweepers (like togekiss) and it allows it to more reliably pass wishes
3. baton pass + weakness policy: a personal favorite, bp + wp creates counterplay and ups the viability of mons whose large number of weaknesses is normally a hindrance (like you mentioned, celebi)
4. baton pass absol: sd baton pass 2 attack absol is a great set, probably among one of its best. Like espeon, it allows it to do massive damage while supporting its team and not being walled by fairies
5. baton pass vaporeon: see umbreon
6. baton pass mienshao: a cool gimmick / surprise set with sd and/or sub that works in a similar manner to bp absol
7. baton pass togekiss: is broken as shit, because it's togekiss, but combined with dugtrio it can shit on all of togekiss' normal switch-ins (raikou, jirachi, etc) as well as pass NP boosts and sweep for itself
8. baton pass busken / ninjask :^): is a cool and somewhat viable strategy that is by no means broken
compare this to the pros of banning baton pass
1. retaining hazard smeargle: yay sticky web everyone loves sticky web,,
2. scolipede can be uu!11: this is true. however, I was under the impression that a quickban of smeargle also assumed a later permanent ban that eliminated the ability to geopass or smashpass and would let it back into uu, at which point scoli would be let back in too
EDIT: I forgot about venomoth too, who is arguably not even better than Vivillon without Baton Pass.
here are some things that are perfectly healthy with bp that shouldn't have to suffer the banhammer
1. baton pass espeon: baton pass distinguishes espeon from zam, and it lets it run an awesome cm + baton pass + 2 attack offensive set that can really do some work
2. baton pass umbreon: baton pass allows umbreon to not be complete fodder for set-up sweepers (like togekiss) and it allows it to more reliably pass wishes
3. baton pass + weakness policy: a personal favorite, bp + wp creates counterplay and ups the viability of mons whose large number of weaknesses is normally a hindrance (like you mentioned, celebi)
4. baton pass absol: sd baton pass 2 attack absol is a great set, probably among one of its best. Like espeon, it allows it to do massive damage while supporting its team and not being walled by fairies
5. baton pass vaporeon: see umbreon
6. baton pass mienshao: a cool gimmick / surprise set with sd and/or sub that works in a similar manner to bp absol
7. baton pass togekiss: is broken as shit, because it's togekiss, but combined with dugtrio it can shit on all of togekiss' normal switch-ins (raikou, jirachi, etc) as well as pass NP boosts and sweep for itself
8. baton pass busken / ninjask :^): is a cool and somewhat viable strategy that is by no means broken
compare this to the pros of banning baton pass
1. retaining hazard smeargle: yay sticky web everyone loves sticky web,,
2. scolipede can be uu!11: this is true. however, I was under the impression that a quickban of smeargle also assumed a later permanent ban that eliminated the ability to geopass or smashpass and would let it back into uu, at which point scoli would be let back in too
EDIT: I forgot about venomoth too, who is arguably not even better than Vivillon without Baton Pass.
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Scolipede can neither Smash- nor Geopass, so complex banning those would not help Scolipede. Banning Swords Dance and Baton Pass prevents Ninjask, Absol, and Mienshao from passing, and Iron Defense is just a complex ban to keep Scolipede, which isn't Smogon policy.
If I know Koko and his style, he would rather take the fairly minor casualties of all these single-pass Pokemon you listed (and if Togekiss Pass is as broken as you say, logically it should follow any other banned Pokemon) in the face of keeping UU 100% balanced. I'm with him, I haven't gotten high enough in the ladder in some months to see any of the really powerful strategies, but I would way rather miss them altogether than see such mindless team compositions reign in UU.
Seriously, that Denisssssss team? I watched a replay where a user Memento'd on a wall and Exploded on a Ghost and he still fucking won. The team is literally "Follow steps A through Z and you win." That is broken as fuck. Ban it.
EDIT: Oh. Well. Okay.
If I know Koko and his style, he would rather take the fairly minor casualties of all these single-pass Pokemon you listed (and if Togekiss Pass is as broken as you say, logically it should follow any other banned Pokemon) in the face of keeping UU 100% balanced. I'm with him, I haven't gotten high enough in the ladder in some months to see any of the really powerful strategies, but I would way rather miss them altogether than see such mindless team compositions reign in UU.
Seriously, that Denisssssss team? I watched a replay where a user Memento'd on a wall and Exploded on a Ghost and he still fucking won. The team is literally "Follow steps A through Z and you win." That is broken as fuck. Ban it.
EDIT: Oh. Well. Okay.
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i'm arguing for a smeargle ban, not for no action to be taken o_O' my entire premise is based on the fact that the minor casualities of single-pass pokemon far outweigh the minor casualities of losing the ability to use smeargle and scolipede for a month or so
baton pass togekiss is broken because togekiss is broken, not because baton pass is broken
baton pass togekiss is broken because togekiss is broken, not because baton pass is broken
My problem with this whole thing is that it's not Smeargle on its own that people are arguing against, it's this entire Smeargle team that people are claiming is broken. I mean is Smeargle without Screens/Memento/Tailwind support broken? I mean, the strategy is effective and not fun to play against and all but idk.
That is an interesting idea, but if such a clause were to be made I think it would need to be voted upon on a wider community basis rather than limited to the council members. This is not a matter of whether Baton Pass is a broken move, as you have already said within your post that it has plenty of non-broken applications. Now while I am all well and good with the council making informed decisions on whether a Pokemon/move/ability is broken or not, I do not find it fair for the council to make a decision for the community for what they believe is the better side of the deal. We are still a wide community with many people who are fans of different play-styles and Pokemon, and the few members that are found on the council do not represent enough of the UU population to make the best decision for the community. So I hope that if there is to be a decision to just blanket ban Baton Pass, that more people will be able to vote on the final decision.
I appreciate what the council does for getting rid of the broken strategies, but something this subjective should get more of a people's vote in order to represent what is best for the UU community.
Defog/ Haze/Taunt/Perish Song Insomnia Honchkrow @ Mental Herb
Fuck BP shenanigans :^]
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Seconded, Baton Pass is applicable on cool Pokemon that don't deserve the nerf, (Umbreon, Vaporeon, Combusken, Togekiss which is broken anyway but not the point etc) although Smeargle abuses it just like Venomoth did. This is also a very fringe banning if it were to take place, and making a way for UU community members to get reqs would be needed. Or you could just ban Smeargle.
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