Ubers Arceus-Normal (QC 3/3 GP 1/2)

This is in reference to this post: Silly things on the Ubers ladder that just HAPPENED to screw you over. I'd originally posted a scenario of how a 252 HP Adamant Silk Scarf EKiller swept right past my defensive Yveltal, that was Hack's response.

Now:

If I'm not mistaken there's some requirement that the counters by ordered by how good they are. The fact that physically defensive Yveltal can be beaten by EKiller, who's not even using an outright bad set or really uncommon move (Stone Edge), should be mentioned. It should also mean Yveltal should not be ranked that highly in the counters list, since there are Pokemon that are just as reliable if not even more so, e.g. Skarmory in the rain, Quagsire & Clefable, and arguably Reflect Lugia especially if Multiscale is intact.

The way the analysis is structured right now I think it's better to move defensive Yveltal into the physical walls section, and mention how it can be beaten anyway if it doesn't have Rocket Helmet with a bulky EKiller spread. At the moment it's already mentioned how Lugia dies to +2 Stone Edge, and I strongly suspect bulky EKiller is more common (I don't remember calcs the way Hack does though), so yeah.
 
Stone Edge is both uncommon and really bad. It shouldn't be mentioned. Lugia can go above Yveltal in cc list but it's highly nitpicking. defensive Yveltal is the most viable and easy to use-check in the current metagame.

Fast Ekiller is needed as long as we have Gengar in the meta fyi, and I really don't care whatever suboptimalities you see on the ladder.
 

Minority

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I strongly suspect bulky EKiller is more common (I don't remember calcs the way Hack does though), so yeah.
Even if it is, (in my ladder experience EKiller tends to be fast LO as it should) quantity does not denote quality. This is counter intuitive because you would think that the better the set, the more ladder players would catch on and the more it would be used, but for some strange reason it doesn't work out this way. An article / thread over a comparison of ladder play vs. tour play would be an interesting one and perhaps we could figure out exactly why this is.

I think the CB set should stay, but perhaps the wallceus set can go, you get Leftovers but it's hard to justify not using another type like Ghost / Water / Fairy / Grass that can also check big threats while offering support. Defensively, normal typing is not bad, but it's nice to condense checks and a support mon in a meta where you have to do a lot of condensing to build a team.
 
Please justify a set that gives one of the most dangerous mons in the meta free turns just by courtesy of you being choiced. Please justify a set that can in no way break bulky Arceus formes with Will-o-wisp. The main target for Trick has traditionally been Giratina, which is atrocious in the current meta. Lugia is the only relevant target these days, everything else doesn't get completely crippled with a CB (think groudon, phys def ho-oh, def yveltal etc). It's close to a joke set for me.

why the ladder play is so different from competitive play this generation is a different story that deserves its own thread but i know exactly why this is the case: it has to do with the new face of bulky teams but more importantly how to peak a ladder the easiest with the current system. I'll happily write up my sentiments but right now i'm going to leave it.
 
Stone Edge is both uncommon and really bad. It shouldn't be mentioned. Lugia can go above Yveltal in cc list but it's highly nitpicking. defensive Yveltal is the most viable and easy to use-check in the current metagame.

Fast Ekiller is needed as long as we have Gengar in the meta fyi, and I really don't care whatever suboptimalities you see on the ladder.
The Xerneas analysis has Specially Defensive Fire Arceus listed as the #1 counter. Just saying.

Minority Suspect I was referring to bulky Arceus being more common than Stone Edge Arceus. I don't think I've ever seen Stone Edge Arceus, yet it's mentioned. If Stone Edge is deserving of a mention, then so too should bulky Arceus.
 

shrang

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I'm pretty sure I've mentioned Stone Edge in move options and bulkier EVs in the part where I was talking about EVs. I think that's where they should stay, nothing more, nothing less.

As for CB, I personally like it more than Ekiller. Sure, it's Choiced, but hey, unlike piss weak Ekiller, it can actually revenge kill things. With a CB, it doesn't need residue damage to revenge kill Darkrai, need very little to kill Mega Blaziken and MMY and does more than a measly ~35% to an out of control GeoXern (CB does ~50%). Trick is not its main niche. I'm sorry, but if that's what you think it's supposed to do, then don't even continue. CB is there as a strong revenge killer, and therefore ACTUALLY contributes to the defence of a team unlike Ekiller (which can't pick shit off unless they're significantly more weakened). The fact that it can Trick things is more of a bonus. Yes, it's Gengar bait and you really need to be careful with it, but it's not like >80% of Arceus formes are Shadow Tag weak anyway. There's a reason it's not the first set, but it's worthy of a set.
 
Talked with rest of QC, we all agreed that cb should go. Leave the write up tho, I'll upload it without just in case the write up is needed later.
 
Just a quick question: why is Magic Coat mentioned literally mentioned everywhere in the analysis when there is no mention of it in the set?
 
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Inspirited

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It is good enough for a moves mention, but not good enough for a main set slash or slot. This is the case with a lot of analyses if you look though them.
 
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tehy

Banned deucer.
Amcheck
Btw read the comments.

I find that the last part of the overview is better standalone. 'In short' was a good idea but ultimately not enough.

Comments:

Also, that part is better with my changes, but that's not the first time i've suggested them, so there's that.

You probably need to pick a different word than substantiated. I looked it up just to be sure and... it could work, but in an odd way.

Eq is clearly weaker against the steels overheat pwns, right?

I feel that the modest dialga spread should be first. Also, by making it into a 'respectively' sentence, you can discuss all 3 in 1 sentence, possibly do that. Elininates repetition, though i didnt mind it here.

Physically bulky mons like Ho-Oh might take a hit and slam back, but only ho-oh can sacred fire.

A bit of clarification in checks and counters, hopefully i read your meaning right

What does skarn do to arc exactly, you dont explain.

Mewtwo can also wallbreak for arceus, ja?

Overview
########

Like His real-life counterparts, Arceus's role as the Pokemon deity is shrouded in many narratives of His power. Some mortals claim He is omnipotent in battle, able to smite anything and everything that comes His way. Others claim that He is in fact quite weak and incredibly overhyped. In reality, He is both and none at the same time. It is true that much of Arceus's power is exaggerated. His signature set, the Extreme Killer, is strong, but it has very hard counters in most cases, adds little defensively apart from the ability to revenge kill weakened threats, and requires setup to do anything of significance. His other sets, while useful, also have significant problems.

However, while humans do exaggerate His abilities, most of Arceus's power is substantiated by cold hard stats and an expansive movepool. While very good counters exist for all of Arceus's sets, He has the movepool to theoretically defeat any counter that comes His way. His mixed bulk is only matched by the toughest of walls, which makes setting up extremely easy. In short, a

A
fter the pre-battle tintinnabulation is complete, please stare in awe and wondrous presentiment at what is conceivably one of the best Pokemon in the entire game. Dare not incur Arceus's divine wrath, or else the consequences shall be severe and merciless, and life shall become but an evanescent wisp.

Extreme Killer
########
name: Extreme Killer
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Extreme Speed
move 3: Earthquake / Overheat
move 4: Overheat / Shadow Claw
item: Life Orb / Lum Berry / Silk Scarf
nature: Jolly / Adamant
evs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

Moves
=========

Swords Dance and Extreme Speed allow Arceus to sweep late game when His checks have been weakened or removed. Shadow Claw is a weak but reliable method for Arceus to damage Ghosts. On the other hand, Shadow Force is powerful yet easy to play around. Earthquake is Arceus's strongest attack against Rock- and some Steel-types., while Overheat allows Arceus to fry Scizor, Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Skarmory, although it must be used carefully if rain is present. Brick Break can replace Earthquake to hit Ferrothorn in the rain, but it is a rather weak option against other Steel-types. Magic Coat is a very interesting option to bounce back status thrown at Arceus, as well as to reflect Roar and Whirlwind. It also allows Arceus to serve as a decent anti-lead that prevents Deoxys-S, Smeargle, and others from setting up their entry hazards. Recover can be used to boost up more slowly, but because most of Arceus's counters either use status moves or deal enough damage to offset Recover, it is a rather poor option most of the time, especially when it costs Arceus a precious coverage move. Substitute can prevent status, but because a lot of walls have Roar or Whirlwind, it can only get Arceus so far. Refresh can be used to remove status, one of the more reliable ways of dealing with Arceus. With Refresh, Arceus can Swords Dance on a predicted status move, and then cure itself of the status easily the next turn. Stone Edge is also a decent option to OHKO Lugia and physically defensive Yveltal after Stealth Rock damage, as well as to always OHKO physically defensive Ho-oh.

Set Details
=========

This is probably Arceus's most iconic set. With His excellent bulk and decent power, He can easily set up late game when His counters have been weakened and mop up the remains. Extreme Speed and bulk make Arceus very difficult to revenge kill; He is particularly difficult for an offensive team to take Arceus down late game. What makes Arceus scary for offensive teams is that the Pokemon that can kill Arceus tend to be ripped to shreds by Extreme Speed, while those that can take Extreme Speed tend to either be too slow, in which case they are destroyed by coverage moves, or they are too weak to take down Arceus. This is not to say that Arceus is invincible, but He does force the opponent to pack either a relatively hard counter or a loose group of checks to make sure that Arceus does not sweep them. Arceus's role is not just limited to that of a sweeper, either. His strong priority move allows Him to take down a lot of frail or weakened threats,; for example, Blaziken. If He is packing Magic Coat, He can also serve as a very good anti-lead, bouncing back entry hazards or just picking off the opponent with Extreme Speed.

Arceus has a number of EV spreads that He can run. The one provided above allows Arceus to at least Speed tie other Arceus. 56 Speed EVs with an Adamant nature can be used to outspeed Swords Dance Rayquaza. An Adamant nature can be run with 124 Speed EVs to outspeed positive natured base 90s, most notably Timid Dialga. A slower EV spread with 16 Speed EVs can be used to outspeed Modest Dialga.

As for the item, Arceus generally has three options.
Lum Berry allows Arceus to avoid status, specifically from Will-O-Wisp support Arceus. It is very important to note that Arceus is very weak with a Lum Berry, so you really need to weaken the opposing team before you try to sweep with Lum Berry Arceus. Life Orb is preferred if Arceus is using a Jolly nature, to offset the drop in power. It is also better on sets using Overheat, to give the move the extra kick needed to take down Skarmory. Silk Scarf is a good option to boost the power of Extreme Speed without the recoil of Life Orb, and it is a decent option alongside Magic Coat. Leftovers can also be used, but it is rather useless, since the most common ways of dealing with Arceus are status and phazing, and Leftovers does not help Arceus avoid any notable 2HKOes.

Usage Tips
=========

Please don't be singlone-track-minded and just send Arceus in at the earliest opportunity to set up and attack. That kind of mentality will just waste you a perfectly good Arceus. It is very important to realize that Arceus is a late game cleaner, not a wallbreaker. Should your opponent still have a Giratina, Lugia, or any other physically bulky wall, you're just going to end up getting Arceus crippled. It also means that, while Arceus is bulky, you also have to know the limits of what He can take, and potentially how much damage He needs be able to deal to sweep. Setting Arceus up on a Kyogre that is in the middle of spamming Water Spout is just going to result in a fainted Arceus. It also means that if your opponent potentially still has a Pokemon that can tank an Extreme Speed and damage Arceus, that even tanking Surf from Kyogre might be a bad idea. People often fail to recognize that while Arceus looks amazing on paper, He has some serious limitations in practice. Most notably, Extreme Speed, for all its priority, is actually not that strong. Anything remotely physically bulky can take one and stop Arceus from sweeping. A Pokemon like physically defensive Ho-Oh can tank a +2 Extreme Speed and hit back hard with Sacred Fire,; Ho-Oh in particular potentially burning Arceus in the process, thanks to Sacred Fire. That being said, if you are smart with using Arceus and expect to sweep with it only when you've lured out and crippled its checks, there really is no other Pokemon that can get the job done like Extreme Killer Arceus.

Team Options
=========

Mega Gengar traps and either weakens or eliminates most of Extreme Killer's checks and counters, including Lugia, Groudon, support Arceus, and Skarmory. It can also sacrifice itself to take down one of Arceus's counters with Destiny Bond. Swords Dance Lum Berry Groudon, Knock Off Blaziken, and Calm Mind Kyogre with Ice Beam can severely weaken or outright KO the Giratina formes, which cannot be trapped by Mega Gengar. Xerneas pairs well with Arceus, resisting Fighting-type moves aimed at Him, as well as threatening the Giratina formes with Moonblast. It can also remove burns and other status from Arceus by using Aromatherapy, allowing Him to be a bit more careless against many Pokemon. Ho-Oh can switch into Will-O-Wisps and phazing moves aimed at Arceus and dish out powerful Brave Birds and Sacred Fires, provided you can give it Defog or Rapid Spin support. Yveltal and Darkrai can take advantage of Giratina and Lugia, either by firing off Dark-type STAB attacks or using Dark Void, in the case of Darkrai. Mewtwo can switch into Fighting-type moves.

If Arceus is using a Lum Berry, it is very much recommended that He is supported by multiple layers of entry hazards, namely Spikes, as He is quite weak without an item to boost His power. Regardless of the item, Sticky Web is always helpful for Arceus, allowing Him to slow down revenge killers such as Terrakion and Mega Gengar. Smeargle and Shuckle can set up Sticky Web relatively reliably.


Other Options
=========

Normal Arceus can run a Choice Band set to some effect, which gives Him greater power to revenge kill some threats such as Darkrai and Mega Mewtwo Y with less residual damage. He can also cripple some of Hits potential counters by Tricking a Choice Band onto them. Normal Arceus can also run a walling set comprised of Will-O-Wisp, Recover, Perish Song and an attacking move due to its excellent defenses. The two aforementioned sets are not as good in XY for one reason: Mega Gengar. Mega Gengar can easily switch into Choice Banded Extreme Speed or Wallceus and render Arceus completely helpless.

Normal Arceus, like all His other formes, can run a Calm Mind set. However, Normal Arceus has a pretty poor STAB typing, whileand it is hard to justify using such a set over the Extreme Killer set. Grass Knot can be used on the Extreme Killer set to heavily damage Groudon, Hippowdon, and Quagsire, three Pokemon that can annoy Arceus a lot. Choice Specs is an option to lure in and cripple physical walls, but Choice Band Arceus can also cripple walls. Finally, Arceus can run a Work Up set, but Work Up is, in general, a pretty bad move, especially on a Pokemon that can use Swords Dance and Calm Mind already.

Checks & Counters
=========

**Defensive Yveltal**: Yveltal can tank a +2 Extreme Speed with good health after Stealth Rock and OHKO in return with Dread Plate-boosted Foul Play. It can also, however, be felled by the rare Stone Edge.

**Status**: Status is probably the only really reliable thing that every Arceus hates. The trouble is that Lum Berry, Refresh and Magic Coat can potentially screw you over, but burning or badly poisoning Arceus is never a bad thing. Because Arceus is not actually that strong, it is possible to inflict Lum Berry variants with status, by using a status move twice. Leech Seed also puts Arceus on a timer and makes Him much easier to stall out.

**Phazing**: As Arceus is relatively weak compared to other hard hitters, He is often a bit easier to phaze out. Keep in mind that Roar and Whirlwind might get bounced back by Magic Coat; using a bulky Pokemon that hits hard can make Arceus second guess whether to Magic Coat or not. Something like Groudon is a diffucult for Arceus to play around with Magic Coat—getting hit by Earthquake isn't something that Arceus wants to do over and over again, and Groudon can take a couple of Extreme Speeds. Dragon Tail also bypasses Magic Coat completely.

**Bulky Steel-types**: Skarmory is one of the best answers to Arceus. Forretress can use Toxic and stall out Arceus with Pain Split. Choice Band Scizor and Mega Scizor can tank an attack from Extreme Killer Arceus and deal huge damage in return with Superpower. All of the aforementioned Steel-types needs to watch out for Overheat from Extreme Killer Arceus and Will-O-Wisp from Wallceus. Ferrothorn can annoy an Arceus that lacks Brick Break or Overheat with Leech Seed and Toxic.

**Unaware Quagsire and Clefable**: Pokemon with Unaware have a lot of problems in and of themselves and are potentially beaten by Magic Coat, but they don't care about Swords Dance and tank Extreme Speed with no problem at all. Quagsire is a bit better than Clefable, as it can use Scald to fish for burns which can't be stopped by Magic Coat.

**Sableye**: Sableye can burn Arceus and use Foul Play to severely damage those that attempt to boost more after getting burned, or those that attempt to play mind games with Magic Coat.

**Physical Walls**: Giratina, Hippowdon, and Lugia can take an attack from Extreme Killer and status or phaze Him. Note that Magic Coat makes status and phazing unreliable at times. Hippowdon and Lugia also lack any way of reducing Arceus's power, meaning they need to either phaze Arceus or use Toxic, and phazing becomes useless when Arceus is the last Pokemon remaining. Lugia can also fall to +2 Stone Edge after Stealth Rock damage. Physically defensive Xerneas can Roar Arceus out and can hit relatively hard.

**Support Arceus**: Checking Arceus with another Arceus can be risky due to Speed ties, Will-O-Wisp's imperfect accuracy, and the threat of Lum Berry or Magic Coat. However, Ghost, Steel, and Rock Arceus can usually cripple Arceus with Will-O-Wisp, as they resist or are immune to Extreme Speed. Any other support Arceus forme without a weakness to one of Arceus's coverage moves can also burn Arceus in an emergency, although all of them can be foiled by Lum Berry Arceus. Fighting Arceus is a bit different, as it can tank an Extreme Speed and deal heavy damage back with Judgment.

**Physical Tanks**: These include Choice Band Landorus-T, Groudon, physically defensive Ho-Oh, Giratina-O, and physically defensive Gyarados with Dragon Tail. Landorus-T can tank a hit from Extreme Killer and OHKO with Superpower.; Groudon can either hit back very hard or use Roar or Dragon Tail to force Arceus out while taking an Extreme Speed easily. Ho-Oh needs lots of Defense investment and Stealth Rock off the field, but it can take an Extreme Speed or two and hit back hard with Sacred Fire to fish for burns or use Whirlwind to phaze Arceus out if needed. Giratina-O can check Arceus once with Dragon Tail or burn Him with Will-O-Wisp. Gyarados can Intimidate Arceus once and Dragon Tail Him out, but that's about the limit of its abilities.

**Revenge Killers**: Make sure that Arceus has taken some prior damage before attempting to revenge kill it, as it is very difficult to actually OHKO a full health Arceus. Choice Specs Omastar in the rain is about the only thing that can OHKO a full health Arceus while not being OHKOed before it can move, but with weather being timed, it is not very reliable. Choice Scarf Terrakion is probably the next best option. Mega Gengar can deal heavy damage to Arceus with Focus Blast. Choice Scarf Dialga can revenge kill an Arceus at about 50% with Draco Meteor.

**Constant Pressure**: Extreme Killer may look incredibly intimidating, but one thing you really need to keep in mind is that it can't run everything at once. Many inexperienced players are scared before even fighting one and fail to recognize that He is just a Pokemon with stats and moves. Fear of a name only increases fear of the Pokemon Himself. In general, unboosted Arceus is weak, which means it'll need to set up before it does anything remotely scary. Never let it set up for free—hit it really hard with a powerful move, or get status or Leech Seed onto it. Even when boosted, it tends not to hit bulky Pokemon too hard. If it comes in after something like Choice Scarf Thunder from Kyogre, go to a defensive wall such as Groudon and Dragon Tail or Roar it out, then limit the amount of times that Extreme Killer can come in and set up. That being said, Arceus has no technically safe switch-in—it has a way to beat any specific counter if it wants to.
 
Last edited:

frenzyplant

Inertia is a property of matter.
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2/2 shrang :)

add remove (comments)

Overview
########

Like His real-life counterparts, Arceus's role as the Pokemon deity is shrouded in many narratives of His power. Some mortals claim He is omnipotent in battle, able to smite anything and everything that comes His way. Others claim that He is in fact quite weak and incredibly overhyped. In reality, He is both and none at the same time. It is true that much of Arceus's power is exaggerated. His signature set, the Extreme Killer, is strong, but it has very hard counters in most cases, adds little defensively apart from the ability to revenge kill weakened threats, and requires setup to do anything of significance. His other sets, while useful, also have significant problems.

However, while humans do exaggerate His abilities, most of Arceus's power is substantiated by cold hard stats and an expansive movepool. While very good counters exist for all of Arceus's sets, He has the movepool to theoretically defeat any counter that comes His way. His mixed bulk is only matched by the toughest of walls, which makes setting up extremely easy. In short, after the pre-battle tintinnabulation is complete, please stare in awe and wondrous presentiment at what is conceivably one of the best Pokemon in the entire game. Dare not incur Arceus's divine wrath, or else the consequences shall be severe and merciless, and life shall become but an evanescent wisp.

Extreme Killer
########
name: Extreme Killer
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Extreme Speed
move 3: Earthquake / Overheat
move 4: Overheat / Shadow Claw
item: Life Orb / Lum Berry / Silk Scarf
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
nature: Jolly / Adamant
evs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

Moves
=========

Swords Dance and Extreme Speed allow Arceus to sweep late-game (dash) when His checks have been weakened or removed. Shadow Claw is a weak but reliable method for Arceus to damage Ghosts. On the other hand, Shadow Force is powerful yet easy to play around. (move sentences to *) Earthquake is Arceus's strongest attack against Rock- and some Steel-types, while Overheat allows Arceus to fry Scizor, Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Skarmory, although it must be used carefully if rain is present. (*) Brick Break can replace Earthquake to hit Ferrothorn in the rain, but it is a rather weak option against other Steel-types. Magic Coat is a very interesting option to bounce back status thrown at Arceus, as well as to reflect Roar and Whirlwind. It also allows Arceus to serve as a decent anti-lead that prevents Deoxys-S, Smeargle, and others from setting up their entry hazards. Recover can be used to boost up more slowly, but because most of Arceus's counters either use status moves or deal enough damage to offset Recover, it is a rather poor option most of the time, especially when it costs Arceus a precious coverage move. Substitute can prevent status, but because a lot of walls have Roar or Whirlwind, it can only get Arceus so far. Refresh can be used to remove status, one of the more reliable ways of dealing with Arceus. With Refresh, Arceus can Swords Dance on a predicted status move, and then cure itself of the status easily the next turn. Stone Edge is also a decent option to OHKO Lugia and physically defensive Yveltal after Stealth Rock damage, as well as to always OHKO physically defensive Ho-Oh.

Set Details
=========

This is probably Arceus's most iconic set. With His excellent bulk and decent power, He can easily set up late-game when His counters have been weakened and mop up the remains. Extreme Speed and bulk make Arceus very difficult to revenge kill; He is particularly difficult for an offensive team to take Arceus down late-game. What makes Arceus scary for offensive teams is that the Pokemon that can kill defeat Arceus tend to be ripped to shreds by Extreme Speed, while those that can take Extreme Speed tend to either be too slow, in which case they are destroyed by coverage moves, or they are too weak to take down Arceus. This is not to say that Arceus is invincible, but He does force the opponent to pack either a relatively hard counter or a loose group of checks to make sure that Arceus does not sweep them. Arceus's role is not just limited to that of a sweeper, either. His strong priority move allows Him to take down a lot of frail or weakened threats, for example, (remove comma) Blaziken. If He is packing Magic Coat, He can also serve as a very good anti-lead, bouncing back entry hazards or just picking off the opponent with Extreme Speed.

Arceus has a number of EV spreads that He can run. The one provided above allows Arceus to at least Speed tie other Arceus. 56 Speed EVs with an Adamant nature can be used to outspeed Swords Dance Rayquaza. An Adamant nature can be run with 124 Speed EVs to outspeed positive natured base 90 Speed Pokemon, most notably Timid Dialga. A slower EV spread with 16 Speed EVs can be used to outspeed Modest Dialga.

As for the item, Arceus generally has three options. (%) Lum Berry allows Arceus to avoid status, specifically from Will-O-Wisp support Arceus. It is very important to note that Arceus is very weak with a Lum Berry, so you really need to weaken the opposing team before you try to sweep with Arceus. Life Orb is preferred if Arceus is using a Jolly nature to offset the drop in power. It is also better on sets using Overheat to give the move the extra kick needed to take down Skarmory. (move sentences to %) Silk Scarf is a good option to boost the power of Extreme Speed without the recoil of Life Orb, and it is a decent option alongside Magic Coat. Leftovers can also be used, but it is rather useless, since the most common ways of dealing with Arceus are status and phazing, and Leftovers does not help Arceus avoid any notable 2HKOs (remove e).

Usage Tips
=========

Please don't be singleone-track-minded and just send Arceus in at the earliest opportunity to set up and attack. That kind of mentality will just waste you a perfectly good Arceus. It is very important to realize that Arceus is a late-game cleaner, not a wallbreaker. Should your opponent still have a Giratina, Lugia, or any other physically bulky wall, you're just going to end up getting Arceus crippled. It also means that, while Arceus is bulky, you also have to know the limits of what He can take, and potentially how much damage He needs be able to deal to sweep. Setting Arceus up on a Kyogre that is in the middle of spamming Water Spout is just going to result in a fainted Arceus. It also means that if your opponent potentially still has a Pokemon that can tank an Extreme Speed and damage Arceus, that even tanking Surf from Kyogre might be a bad idea. People often fail to recognize that while Arceus looks amazing on paper, He has some serious limitations in practice. Most notably, Extreme Speed, for all its priority, is actually not that strong. Anything remotely physically bulky can take one and stop Arceus from sweeping. A Pokemon like physically defensive Ho-Oh can tank a +2 Extreme Speed and hit back hard with Sacred Fire, potentially burning Arceus in the process. That being said, if you are smart with using Arceus and expect to sweep with it only when you've lured out and crippled its checks, there really is no other Pokemon that can get the job done like Extreme Killer Arceus.

Team Options
=========

Mega Gengar can traps and either weakens or eliminates most of Extreme Killer's checks and counters, including Lugia, Groudon, support Arceus, and Skarmory. It can also sacrifice itself to take down one of Arceus's counters with Destiny Bond. Swords Dance Lum Berry Groudon, Knock Off Blaziken, and Calm Mind + Ice Beam Kyogre with Ice Beam can severely weaken or outright KO the Giratina formes, which cannot be trapped by Mega Gengar. Xerneas pairs well with Arceus, resisting Fighting-type moves aimed at Him, as well as threatening the Giratina formes with Moonblast. It can also remove burns and other status from Arceus by using Aromatherapy, allowing Him to be a bit more careless against many Pokemon. Ho-Oh can switch into Will-O-Wisps and phazing moves aimed at Arceus and dish out powerful Brave Birds and Sacred Fires, provided you can give it Defog or Rapid Spin support. Yveltal and Darkrai can take advantage of Giratina and Lugia, either by firing off Dark-type STAB attacks or using Dark Void in the case of Darkrai. Mewtwo can switch into Fighting-type moves.

If Arceus is using a Lum Berry, it is very much recommended that He is supported by multiple layers of entry hazards, namely Spikes, as He is quite weak without an item to boost His power. Regardless of the item, Sticky Web is always helpful for Arceus, allowing Him to slow down revenge killers such as Terrakion and Mega Gengar. Smeargle and Shuckle can set up Sticky Web relatively reliably.


Other Options
########=========

Normal Arceus can run a Choice Band set to some effect, which gives Him greater power to revenge kill some threats such as Darkrai and Mega Mewtwo Y with less residual damage. He can also cripple some of its His potential counters by Tricking a Choice Band onto them. Normal Arceus can also run a walling set comprised of Will-O-Wisp, Recover, Perish Song and an attacking move due to its His excellent defenses. The two aforementioned sets are not as good in XY for one reason: Mega Gengar. Mega Gengar can easily switch into Choice Banded Extreme Speed or Wallceus and render Arceus completely helpless.

Normal Arceus, like all His other formes, can run a Calm Mind set. However, Normal Arceus has a pretty poor STAB typing, while and it is hard to justify using such a set over the Extreme Killer set. Grass Knot can be used on the Extreme Killer set to heavily damage Groudon, Hippowdon, and Quagsire, three Pokemon that can annoy Arceus a lot. Choice Specs is an option to lure in and cripple physical walls, but Choice Band Arceus can also cripple walls. Finally, Arceus can run a Work Up set, but Work Up is in general, a pretty bad move, especially on a Pokemon that can use Swords Dance and Calm Mind already.

Checks & Counters
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**Defensive Yveltal**: Yveltal can tank a +2 Extreme Speed with good health after Stealth Rock and OHKO in return with Dread Plate-boosted Foul Play. However, it can also be felled by the rare Stone Edge.

**Status**: Status is probably the only really reliable thing that every Arceus hates. The trouble is that Lum Berry, Refresh, (comma) and Magic Coat can potentially screw you status users over, but burning or badly poisoning Arceus is never a bad thing. Because Arceus is not actually that strong, it is possible to inflict Lum Berry variants with status by using a status move twice. Leech Seed also puts Arceus on a timer and makes Him much easier to stall out.

**Phazing**: As Arceus is relatively weak compared to other hard hitters, He is often a bit easier to phaze out. Keep in mind that Roar and Whirlwind might get bounced back by Magic Coat; using a bulky Pokemon that hits hard can make Arceus second guess whether to Magic Coat or not. Something like Groudon is a difficult for Arceus to play around with Magic Coat—getting hit by Earthquake isn't something that Arceus wants to do over and over again, and Groudon can take a couple of Extreme Speeds. Dragon Tail also bypasses Magic Coat completely.

**Bulky Steel-types**: Skarmory is one of the best answers to Arceus. Forretress can use Toxic and stall out Arceus with Pain Split. Choice Band Scizor and Mega Scizor can tank an attack from Extreme Killer Arceus and deal huge damage in return with Superpower. All of the aforementioned Steel-types needs to watch out for Overheat from Extreme Killer Arceus and Will-O-Wisp from Wallceus. Ferrothorn can annoy an Arceus that lacks Brick Break or Overheat with Leech Seed and Toxic. (move sentence to after Scizor sentence)

**Unaware Quagsire and Clefable**: Pokemon with Unaware have a lot of problems in and of themselves and are potentially beaten by Magic Coat, but they don't care about Swords Dance and tank Extreme Speed with no problem at all. Quagsire is a bit better than Clefable at this job as it can use Scald, which can't be stopped by Magic Coat, to fish for burns which can't be stopped by Magic Coat.

**Sableye**: Sableye can burn Arceus and use Foul Play to severely damage those that attempt to boost more after getting burned, or those that attempt to play mind games with Magic Coat.

**Physical Walls**: Giratina, Hippowdon, and Lugia can take an attack from Extreme Killer and either status or phaze Him. Note that Magic Coat makes status and phazing unreliable at times. Hippowdon and Lugia also lack any way of reducing Arceus's power, meaning they need to either phaze Arceus or use Toxic, and phazing becomes useless when Arceus is the last Pokemon remaining. Lugia can also fall to +2 Stone Edge after Stealth Rock damage. Physically defensive Xerneas can Roar Arceus out and can hit relatively hard.

**Support Arceus**: Checking Arceus with another Arceus can be risky due to Speed ties, Will-O-Wisp's imperfect accuracy, and the threat of Lum Berry or Magic Coat. However, Ghost, Steel, and Rock Arceus can usually cripple Arceus with Will-O-Wisp, as they resist or are immune to Extreme Speed. Any other support Arceus forme without a weakness to one of Arceus's coverage moves can also burn Arceus in an emergency, although all of them can be foiled by Lum Berry Arceus. Fighting Arceus is a bit different, as it can tank an Extreme Speed and deal heavy damage back with Judgment.

**Physical Tanks**: These include Choice Band Landorus-T, Groudon, physically defensive Ho-Oh, Giratina-O, and physically defensive Gyarados with Dragon Tail. Landorus-T can tank a hit from Extreme Killer and OHKO with Superpower. Groudon can either hit back very hard or use Roar or Dragon Tail to force Arceus out while taking an Extreme Speed easily. Ho-Oh needs lots of Defense investment and Stealth Rock off the field, but it can take an Extreme Speed or two and either hit back hard with Sacred Fire to fish for burns or use Whirlwind to phaze Arceus out if needed. Giratina-O can check Arceus once with Dragon Tail or burn Him with Will-O-Wisp. Gyarados can Intimidate Arceus once and Dragon Tail Him out, but that's about the limit of its abilities.

**Revenge Killers**: Make sure that Arceus has taken some prior damage before attempting to revenge kill Him it, as it is very difficult to actually OHKO a full health Arceus. Choice Specs Omastar in the rain is about the only thing that can OHKO a full health Arceus, but with weather being put on a timer timed, it is not very reliable. Choice Scarf Terrakion is probably the next best option. Mega Gengar can deal heavy damage to Arceus with Focus Blast. Choice Scarf Dialga can revenge kill an Arceus at about 50% health with Draco Meteor.

**Constant Pressure**: Extreme Killer may look incredibly intimidating, but one thing you really need to keep in mind is that it can't run everything at once. Many inexperienced players are scared before even fighting one and fail to recognize that He is just a Pokemon with stats and moves. Fear of a name only increases fear of the Pokemon Himself. In general, unboosted Arceus is weak, which means it'll need to set up before it does anything remotely scary. Never let it set up for free—hit it really hard with a powerful move, or get status or Leech Seed onto it. Even when boosted, it tends not to hit bulky Pokemon too hard. If it comes in after something like Choice Scarf Thunder from Kyogre, go to a defensive wall such as Groudon and Dragon Tail or Roar phaze it out, then limit the amount number of times that Extreme Killer can come in and set up. That being said, Arceus has no technically safe switch-in—it has a way to beat any specific counter if it wants to.
 

shrang

General Kenobi
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Sorry guys, I'm really busy these days so I'm sorry for ignoring GP checks. As you can see S-tag is consuming most of my time on Smogon, and I have a crapload of exams coming up.
 

shrang

General Kenobi
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Sounds like a waste of time. I'll be fine giving Refresh a high slash and a bigger mention (I can even give it first slash), but I don't see the point writing a whole new set for Refresh when it only does one thing different to the rest of the set and handles one set of teams more easily.

EDIT:
Just to talked to Dice and he brought up a few good points in that we'll get massive slashitis, and the defensive utility of Refresh Ekiller against Ghostceus. While I think it would be quite repetitive writing out a new set, I'm open to another set being written.

That said, if QC does want a Refresh set written, I'd prefer it that it just gets its own thread to be uploaded when this analysis goes up. I'm really not in the mood for writing a separate set, so if we want Refresh written separately, someone else would have to do it, sorry.
 
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