CAP 19 CAP 19 - Part 7 - Secondary Ability Discussion

[Base Speed]

Yikes. There are so many reasons why Competitive is a terrible idea...

1. It's a great ability, that easily has the potential to outclass our primary ability.
2. It's generically good. It does absolutely nothing to further our concept, it just makes CAP19 more powerful.
3. It's totally contrary to the original concept: Competitive can only make it more desirable to kill CAP19. We're already immune to paralysis and don't really care about burn, you want to make it so we can't be debuffed at all? Want to make it so people can't Defog on us? Want Gyarados (who, if what we've done so far works, will become huge in this meta) to bring CAP19 up to terrifying power? No!

And Technician? As Vann Accessible has already pointed out, Technician means 90 BP Hidden Powers and allows us to beat things we shouldn't. That and that alone is enough to put me off.

No Competitive Ability please. Storm Drain gives us everything we need and we shouldn't distract from it.

 

[PikapowerUltra]

I support Overcoat, Vital Spirit/Insomnia, Sap Sipper and contact abilities such as Cursed Body, Static, and Gooey.
I think that anything more powerful or more reliable would overshadow Storm Drain and/or allow us to beat our counters.
No Competitive Ability is viable, but likely not necessary when we could use a niche ability instead.
I believe the best choice is an anti sleep ability, but the other ones that I mentioned could also work. Sap Sipper may sound too strong, but with our abysmal attack, the boost likely wouldn't matter.

 

[Tadasuke]

I'd like to propose Sheer Force, Serene Grace, and No Guard as potential abilities.

Firstly, (and this should really be taken as read), I don’t want people suggesting abilities that outclass the primary ability.

Uhhh.

 

[WhiteShadow052]

For once, this has actually driven me to post.

Competitive is one of the worst abilities to give our CaP. We already have 130SPA, we really do not need to boost that. At +2 we turn into some ridiculous wall breaker/sweeper which we do not want. As nyttyn said, it ruins everything.

I'm falling into the NCA crowd really. I think Storm Drain is already sufficient. NCA allows everyone to know what you are running, which automatically puts pressure on if you make a mistake with a choiced water move.

Why would you want to give away valuable information? Pokemon is an information game, and the more you can keep things a mystery, the greater chance you have of surprising your opponent and not allowing them to recover. What I mean is, if we have just Storm Drain, our opponent would know that already and be prepared to counter it, which is why I would like to propose the second ability below.

I like the ability Swift Swim because if this CAP were to have Thunder in its moveset (I'm pretty sure it will), not only is it guaranteed to hit, it might even get the move off faster than the main threats. Our CAP is already pretty fast, so why not make it faster? And more threatening? This ability has no chance at all to outclass Storm Drain, and provides options to the user/battler.

However, I have to admit I like the idea of having No Competitive Ability too, Storm Drain is good enough on its own.

 

[Camden]

I support No Competitive Ability because Storm Drain is already going to fulfill CAP19's intended job. If we were to add an ability such as Vital Spirit/Sap Sipper/Overcoat, we would only be increasing the number of statuses that could be used on it. It's already immune to Poison/Paralysis, and giving it an immunity to the only other status relevant against it would be silly.

Also, please no Competitive. That would absolutely outclass Storm Drain.

 

[Sun King]

Okay, I said I was going to edit my post, but a bunch of people have posted, so I'm just going to make another post…

I still stand by Overcoat as a secondary ability--I think easing switches into Breloom and Amoongus are a major, MAJOR plus.

However--I think you should all go do the calcs without Technician before you start bashing it. Thanks to the ungodly 131 base SpA we gave CAP, almost this entire list is killed by HP Ice/Fire BEFORE Technician (or by STABS).

Hide

• Landorus
• Keldeo locked into anything except from Hidden Power Electric / Scald
• Excadrill outside of sand
• Landorus-T
• Garchomp
• Greninja
• Mega Scizor and regular Scizor
• Choiced Fire-types (Choice Band Talonflame locked into Flare Blitz, Scarf Heatran, Scarf and Band Victini locked to anything other than Bolt Strike)
• Hippowdon without phazing
• Gliscor that lacks Toxic and is not faster than Mega Gyarados + Taunt (EQ + Knock Off SpD Gliscor, SR + Taunt + U-turn Gliscor)
• Dragon Dance Dragonite
• Mamoswine
• Starmie without Thunderbolt
• Weavile
• Rhyperior without Toxic / Roar
• Tyranitar and Mega Tyranitar (except from CB Stone Edge, which does over half)

What Technician allows us to actually do is 2HKO Amoongus, who otherwise puts us to sleep and then regenerates out.

Someone please tell me what exactly Technician is stopping from switching in that wasn't already deterred. The only one I've come up with on this list of "threats" is Excadrill in sand.

 

[YellowAdminSilver]

I like the ability Swift Swim because if this CAP were to have Thunder in its moveset (I'm pretty sure it will), not only is it guaranteed to hit, it might even get the move off faster than the main threats. Our CAP is already pretty fast, so why not make it faster? And more threatening? This ability has no chance at all to outclass Storm Drain, and provides options to the user/battler.

Swift Swim actually has a pretty huge chance of outclassing Storm Drain, especially, with the reasoning you mentioned yourself: here we have a 'mon that now has 397 Sp. Atk and 299 Speed, when Modest, sitting at +2 speed (the equivalent of 598 speed, for those of you who dislike math) with a 110BP STAB move with perfect accuracy and a paralysis chance that resists nearly all forms of priority known to man and outspeeds and OHKOs Thundurus, Keldeo and pretty much every Water-type in existance that isn't part Ground. Pair this fucker up with Politoed and you basically have auto-Agility Thundurus in rain for the next seven turns. Bad idea. Yes, it's faster and more threatening, but that's not the goal right now.

 

[Ununhexium]

OKAY we are getting a little off track here.

The purpose of this is NOT to just choose another ability that helps it somehow, but rather to fill a niche that while useful, is rather small and should not be used over the main ability most of the time. Also, we should not choose an ability that allows it to perform a completely different niche on a team even if it does help the concept somewhat (lookin at you Competitive). Likewise, we should not choose Swift Swim just because the CAP will likely get Thunder. That makes it a powerful rain sweeper, not a Pokemon that dissuades the opponent from fainting it.

Honestly, Vital Spirit / Insomnia or NCA is the best route to go down.

 

[Illusio]

I agree with GoldNinja here. If our purpose is to dissaude the pokemon from knocking out out, why shouldn't we give them a reason not to? I think Cursed Body would be the best here. Not terribly overpowered, it serves its purpose as a reason to not KO it.

 

[Elite Lord Sigma]

I think that Vital Spirit/Insomnia or Sap Sipper are the best two options mentioned thus far. Both provide ways to get around Spore without outclassing Storm Drain's ability to sponge incoming Scalds as well as boosting CAP 19's already high Special Attack. Cursed Body, while a luck-based ability, does fit the concept well.

 

[Yayz]

Levitate's a good idea, right guys?

Also supporting Vital Spirit/Insomnia, Overcoat, and Cursed Body.

For the first two (three?) options, the ability to just say no to sleep is pretty helpful in taking out sleep-users. The main sleep users also happen to be Grass-types, something Mega-Gyra isn't a huge fan of.

Cursed Body is also cool for potentially neutering a Poke that normally beats Gyra, allowing it to set up on it, something it couldn't do before. It's very niche and probably unreliable, but it is possible.

 

[NumberCruncher]

Firstly, (and this should really be taken as read), I don’t want people suggesting abilities that outclass the primary ability.

Uhhh.

I already explained why none of these abilities actually work on this thing. A bad, but practical ability will pretty much always trump a good, but completely impractical ability.

 

[ginganinja]

As written, none of those abilities work on this CAP, because we don't have an actual movepool yet. That said, all three of those moves have the potential to overshadow Water Absorb, if certain moves are picked. Zap Cannon for instance, becomes a viable STAB option with No Guard. A guaranteed paralysis move that also does significant damage is a douche to pretty much everything that wants to switch into this CAP. Before you point to ground / electric types, I'll point to most of them being unable to switch into a 130 SpA Sludge Bomb or suchlike. Heck, Inferno/DP becomes a threatening coverage move (if it got them). Sheer Force is a similar ability, pretty much turning this CAP into a flat out nuke (as if it wasn't already), which leaves Serene Grace as pretty much the only ability among your 3 that isn't flat out anti concept...and its STILL movepool dependant.

You can always argue that we don't have to give it these "abusive" moves like Zap Cannon, but then you have an ability like No Guard which has no competitive purpose (due to us banning the effective moves you can use with it), in which case you might as well be voting for No Competitive Ability.

 

[NumberCruncher]

As written, none of those abilities work on this CAP, because we don't have an actual movepool yet. That said, all three of those moves have the potential to overshadow Water Absorb, if certain moves are picked. Zap Cannon for instance, becomes a viable STAB option with No Guard. A guaranteed paralysis move that also does significant damage is a douche to pretty much everything that wants to switch into this CAP. Before you point to ground / electric types, I'll point to most of them being unable to switch into a 130 SpA Sludge Bomb or suchlike. Heck, Inferno/DP becomes a threatening coverage move (if it got them). Sheer Force is a similar ability, pretty much turning this CAP into a flat out nuke (as if it wasn't already), which leaves Serene Grace as pretty much the only ability among your 3 that isn't flat out anti concept...and its STILL movepool dependant.

You can always argue that we don't have to give it these "abusive" moves like Zap Cannon, but then you have an ability like No Guard which has no competitive purpose (due to us banning the effective moves you can use with it), in which case you might as well be voting for No Competitive Ability.

I agree that Sheer Force was a bit rash a decision on my part, I still say that the other two aren't anti-concept nor strictly better than Storm Drain. Heck, having No Guard actually does something that heavily improves our ability to get Gyarados through. Let me explain.

First, let's look at what the double-sided nature of No Guard does. It encourages two things. The first is it actually encourages people with low accuracy moves to try to come in on CAP, so we get a situational boost that occasionally the moves the opponent's use just whiff and Gyarados gets free set-up that way.

The second thing comes into play at team building. The opponent has to choose between packing Scald on his fast Water-type monster or Hydro Pump. Assuming he's expecting to see a ton of CAP in CAP testing, there are two possibilities. Either CAP is packing Storm Drain or No Guard. In the case of the former, it doesn't really matter which it takes, since Storm Drain nulls both. In the case of the latter, Hydro Pump is clearly superior, since a 110 base power move that has 100% accuracy on CAP. Thus the opponent never has a real reason to prioritize running Scald on his sweeper over Hydro Pump. This ability simply existing on CAPs helps Gyarados even when the CAP doesn't actually carry No Guard. The boost we're getting from No Guard, doesn't actually come from having No Guard, but from the opponent's fear that No Guard might show up.

In other words, No Guard is essentially a No Competitive Ability, but it gives us benefits a No Competitive Ability wouldn't give us.

As for Serene Grace, I can see what you're getting at with it being movepool dependent, but remember that we aren't at movepool stage yet, so we can plan the movepool with Serene Grace in mind if Serene Grace becomes our ability.

 

[ginganinja]

First, let's look at what the double-sided nature of No Guard does. It encourages two things. The first is it actually encourages people with low accuracy moves to try to come in on CAP, so we get a situational boost that occasionally the moves the opponent's use just whiff and Gyarados gets free set-up that way.

It doesn't encourage squat. If we decide that this CAP is countered by, lets say, Gliscor, why would I instead choose to switch in something else, somehow predict that you are using the inferior ability, and then use a move with lower accuracy, to make it easier for Gyarados to switch in and set up on that 20% chance of a miss. Lets consider the following example:

-I have a Gliscor
-I also have a Specs Keldeo
-I am clairvoyant and know you are not using Storm Drain
-I see that you have a Gyarados on your team.
-Your CAP is low enough for my Keldeo to kill
-Your CAP lacks HP Ice
-Stealth Rock is not up

Lets say I have a free switch (say if you just got a KO on something, or I U-Turned as you brought in this CAP), I can choose to

a) Bring in Gliscor,and hard wall you
b) Bring in Keldeo and use Hydro Pump
c) Bring in Keldeo and use Scald.

I can bring in Gliscor and force you out, guaranteed. There is no risk in doing so and I get free momentum. I even get to Toxic your Gyarados switch in if you want to try and be cute.

I can bring in Keldeo and Hydro Pump. I can miss your CAP (if you stay in), and I die. That sucks. I can miss the Gyarados switch in, and then get set up on. That also sucks.

I can bring in Keldeo and use Scald. I have no chance at missing. I have a 30% shot at burning whatever you switch in. If its a Gyarados, I can Scald twice (once for the switch in, once against as you DD) for a better chance at getting a burn and thus crippling you.

Tell me which of these options ranks the best. Heck, you don't even get the "teambuilding argument" since Keldeo would be the premier fast water type this gen, and runs BOTH Hydro Pump and Scald.

Thus the opponent never has a real reason to prioritize running Scald on his sweeper over Hydro Pump.

Is a pretty sweeping statement. I know quite a lot of players hate Hydro Pump with a passion, due to how lame it is losing a game solely on a miss. Furthermore, its not like Scald as a STAB move is a bad option. Its still a high powered STAB move with no drawbacks and a 30% chance of inflicting a burn on anything that doesn't have Natural Cure / Water Absorb / Storm Drain. Its part of the reason Specs Keldeo runs both, to have the versatility to switch moves.

I would rephrase your statement to be something along the lines of "No Guard is essentially a No Competitive Ability, that has the risk of overshadowing our primary ability if future polls are not managed appropriately. In a perfect world, I would put my faith in the movepool leader and that would be that, but sadly, history has shown certain people (who shall remain nameless) have proven incapable of avoiding these issues and as such, here we stand.

Final point:

As for Serene Grace, I can see what you're getting at with it being movepool dependent, but remember that we aren't at movepool stage yet, so we can plan the movepool with Serene Grace in mind if Serene Grace becomes our ability.

Replace Serene Grace with No Guard, and you have my scenario. The moment you give this CAP No Guard (hypothetically speaking), people start planning the movepool with No Guard in mind.

I'm not slating No Guard, nor am I slating Sheer Force. If you want to make an argument for Serene Grace, I will listen, but its a flat out no for the first two abilities, unless someone can be /really/ persuasive.

 

[Psychic Daryl]

Insomnia would be brilliant to stop those irritating sleep-setters right in their tracks. Once again, I would want to suggest Aftermath as this ability would be the best one that reflects the concept.

 

[Dogfish44]

Technician is a No. 90 BAP Hidden Powers are a lot (Enough to start picking up KOs on Garchy/Lando without running an offensive item), and it can easily be classed as outclassing Storm Drain.

Competitive was crushed before people could get behind it, thank the lord -_-

Overcoat/Vital Spirit/Insomnia are all interesting to me. All primarily block (some) forms of Sleep - Overcoat is purely anti-Spore/Sleep Powder, but has the added benefit of weather immunity. Meanwhile, VS/Insomnia block all sleep. All three work at Breloom-control at least.

Static / Gooey are both solid if you're able to make the final KO be by something contact, then switch into Gya. I actually prefer Gooey here, since very rarely will CAP be KOed on contact, but the option is there for players who want to get setup against a -1 Atk / -1 Spe Physical Attacker for Gyarados. More reliable than Static at least.

I'm actually going to toss Damp into the mix here. Explosion and Self-Destruct are a pain for CAP to be KOed by, since we lose our free switch to Gyarados. Damp removes the problem outright, for the teams who othrwise can't handle boom.

 

[Sun King]

Technician is a No. 90 BAP Hidden Powers are a lot (Enough to start picking up KOs on Garchy/Lando without running an offensive item), and it can easily be classed as outclassing Storm Drain.

Competitive was crushed before people could get behind it, thank the lord -_-

Overcoat/Vital Spirit/Insomnia are all interesting to me. All primarily block (some) forms of Sleep - Overcoat is purely anti-Spore/Sleep Powder, but has the added benefit of weather immunity. Meanwhile, VS/Insomnia block all sleep. All three work at Breloom-control at least.

Static / Gooey are both solid if you're able to make the final KO be by something contact, then switch into Gya. I actually prefer Gooey here, since very rarely will CAP be KOed on contact, but the option is there for players who want to get setup against a -1 Atk / -1 Spe Physical Attacker for Gyarados. More reliable than Static at least.

I'm actually going to toss Damp into the mix here. Explosion and Self-Destruct are a pain for CAP to be KOed by, since we lose our free switch to Gyarados. Damp removes the problem outright, for the teams who othrwise can't handle boom.

252 SpA Abomasnow Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 356-420 (111.5 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Abomasnow Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Garchomp: 340-400 (95.2 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (I've changed the typing to Electric/Poison)
This is WITHOUT TECHNICIAN. If CAP has the SpA boost from Storm drain, the 68.8% chance on Garchomp turns into 100%.

And before you say something outclasses the Storm Drain set, please first weigh the opportunity cost of using the secondary ability over the first. I agree--things like No Guard are absolutely over the top, and there would be no reason to run Storm Drain over No Guard. But running Technician over Storm Drain means that you are giving up an immunity to water plus a free SpA boost just to 2HKO some key defensive mons; it means that CAP19 is no longer capable of absorbing scalds.

 

[CerberusSONE]

As of now, I'm supporting the Sleep-Immunity abilities, but not Overcoat.
Overcoat seems pointless since it only protects CAP from Sand and Leech Seed. If we're ever up against Rush Excadrill in Sand, which can happen, we willl probably lose to it anyway, and we don't have to worry about Sand damage. Leech Seed depletes more HP off of types that Grass has an advantage against, and less HP off of types that resist Grass. We shouldn't have to worry about that.

With an immunity to Sleep and Paralysis, as well as a well-enough obliviousness to Burn, CAP19 should be able to take on enough opponents with its attacks.

Supporting Vital Spirit/Insomnia.

 

[nyttyn]

Technician
Turns Hidden Power from something that can pick up a few niche KOs from quadruple weak mons to Ice Beam, making Hidden Power way less risky to use. No thank you.

Over Spirit Slepelessness
Eeeeeeeeeeh. I mean, sure? I guess? Breloom control? Sleep immunity is nice but not really anything to write home about. I wouldn't vote for it, but I see no problems with it making the slate.

Static / Gooey / Work That Body
Bah, don't like these. They're too much of a "sucker punch" option, and that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I mean, I guess they're pro concept, so throw them on the poll I suppose, but eeh. Wouldn't vote for them.

Damp
...This is actually competitive?

Filter
Too generically good and situational, imo. No thank you.

Sheer Force
nononononoNONONOONOnonononONONONONONONONONONONONO

Serene Grace
This accomplishes nothing, it's just generically good MoreHax. No thanks.

No Guard
aurumoth.jpg. No thank you.

Aftermath
Situational, limited, eh. sure why not, still won't vote for it, but no harm in letting it go on the poll.

 

[Yayz]

As of now, I'm supporting the Sleep-Immunity abilities, but not Overcoat.
Overcoat seems pointless since it only protects CAP from Sand and Leech Seed. If we're ever up against Rush Excadrill in Sand, which can happen, we will probably lose to it anyway, and we don't have to worry about Sand damage. Leech Seed depletes more HP off of types that Grass has an advantage against, and less HP off of types that resist Grass. We shouldn't have to worry about that.

Overcoat doesn't actually protect against Leech Seed (Pretty sure anyway. I just looked it up and it says nothing about that). Additionally, Leech Seed always takes off 12% of your health, and it doesn't care what your weakness or resistance to it is.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

At this stage, I'm leaning towards the sleep immunity abilities, and particularly Vital Spirit / Insomnia. Overcoat specifically blocks the spore moves (and weather damage), and we're already immune to stun spore and poison powder due to the nature of our typing. Vital Spirit and Insomnia have the obvious benefit of protecting against all forms of sleep. Sure, Spore is the most important of these with Breloom running around, but being able to absorb a Dark Void from some random Smeargle might not be a bad thing (especially if that Smeargle tries to pass a cotton guard or a geomancy to tank some hits and screw up CAP19/Gyarados.). Yes, this is probably not going to be common at all, but it is somewhat useful while still less useful than Storm Drain, like we want. In any light, being able to take a sleep inducing move however is pretty important in allowing us to defeat standard Breloom, since we certainly have the physical bulk and typing to take on his STABs.

 

[Emerald Master]

I agree in what many are saying in that Vital Spirit/Insomnia would be a good ability for it, allowing cap19 to put sleepers to a cold stop.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

I'm throwing my support behind Sap Sipper. Yes, the attack boost may be useless but this is the only ability we can have that lets us be immune to spore and leech seed at the same time (Magic Bounce does too, but that easily outclasses Storm Drain), we need a weapon against Ferrothorn, yes we do have HP Fire but literally as soon as we reveal our HP is Fire the opponent will know we can't threaten Garchomp and set up and sweep us. Sap Sipper is the closest thing we are going to get as a weapon against Ferrothorn we have atm. Also Spore immunity is nice.

 

[P3DS]

Sap sipper/overcoat/sleep immunity is nice in my books, but infiltrator would get my vote, with it's ability to null sub users is pretty nice, and with sub seeders, pretty darn good. Contact abilities like cursed body and gooey seem pretty nice too