Ugly Babies: The UnderUsed of Little Cup

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the OU-UU cutoff isn't by rank, it's by usage percentage. Those Pokemon are not Overused. Hence, they're welcome in UU.
Oh, I see. Well my point still stands as percentage cut off could be reduced from what I assume is 3.25% to a range between 2.75% and 3.00% to keep all 3 of those shell smashers and hippopatas sand abuse out of lc uu. It's merely a suggestion to make the tier more enjoyable. Certain things such as ferroseed, chinchou, cottonee, sash abra, and powerful priority attacks are hindering the smashers in LC but most counters are just gone and it affects teambuilding to the point of using stuff like purloin just as smash fodder to get a t-wave up or encore in. Also scarf elekid is becoming a thing purely for the sake of outspeeding smashers. I guess sash solosis with energy ball deserves a mention as poor mans abra.
 
For a future viability ranking, I propose Piplup in C Rank.

Pingui (Piplup) @ Eviolite
Ability: Torrent
Level: 5
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Icy Wind
- Defog

Spread is good obv, 252 is usual for Piplup.
He can put rocks, Defog, with a great bulk. Icy Wind + Scald allows to outspeed and KO Sandshrew.
Covet can be used for Knock Off. He can take hits.

236+ Atk Sandshrew Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Piplup: 9-12 (36 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
196 SpA Surskit Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Piplup: 7-9 (28 - 36%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Pineco Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Piplup: 10-12 (40 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

You can play with Berry Juice and Covet instead Icy Wind. This is a really good mon, and my LC UU (#1 actually) contains him (He does his job very well).
He is a underrated mon and I think he should be ranked. (Sorry for faults D:)
 
Oh, I see. Well my point still stands as percentage cut off could be reduced from what I assume is 3.25% to a range between 2.75% and 3.00% to keep all 3 of those shell smashers and hippopatas sand abuse out of lc uu. It's merely a suggestion to make the tier more enjoyable. Certain things such as ferroseed, chinchou, cottonee, sash abra, and powerful priority attacks are hindering the smashers in LC but most counters are just gone and it affects teambuilding to the point of using stuff like purloin just as smash fodder to get a t-wave up or encore in. Also scarf elekid is becoming a thing purely for the sake of outspeeding smashers. I guess sash solosis with energy ball deserves a mention as poor mans abra.
Or, we could just keep the cutoff how it is now and then just ban what we find to be broken...
 
Oh, I see. Well my point still stands as percentage cut off could be reduced from what I assume is 3.25% to a range between 2.75% and 3.00% to keep all 3 of those shell smashers and hippopatas sand abuse out of lc uu. It's merely a suggestion to make the tier more enjoyable. Certain things such as ferroseed, chinchou, cottonee, sash abra, and powerful priority attacks are hindering the smashers in LC but most counters are just gone and it affects teambuilding to the point of using stuff like purloin just as smash fodder to get a t-wave up or encore in. Also scarf elekid is becoming a thing purely for the sake of outspeeding smashers. I guess sash solosis with energy ball deserves a mention as poor mans abra.
I would strongly reccomend reading Antar's Weighted Stats FAQ before making more inane suggestions like this
 
I'm gonna be honest you guys--I don't see Omanyte as that scary--certainly it's no scarier than Tirtouga in regular LC. Fine, yes, there's barely any fighting types, and Prankster+Encore Cottonee is out of the tier, but Omanyte can't run Sturdy, and without Sturdy+Juice, the thing just doesn't seem that threatening. It also lacks coverage--AncientPower is its best special rock move, and that's pretty limiting (note though, that after STAB it has the same base power as Ice Beam).
 

apt-get

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I'm gonna be honest you guys--I don't see Omanyte as that scary--certainly it's no scarier than Tirtouga in regular LC. Fine, yes, there's barely any fighting types, and Prankster+Encore Cottonee is out of the tier, but Omanyte can't run Sturdy, and without Sturdy+Juice, the thing just doesn't seem that threatening. It also lacks coverage--AncientPower is its best special rock move, and that's pretty limiting (note though, that after STAB it has the same base power as Ice Beam).
It's actually really good, +2 surf koes everything and it has excellent phys bulk
Also, it has earth power
 
+2 surf koes everything
I've been walling it with Surskit, lol (resists Surf, Ice Beam and Earth Power).

Edit: tbf, Omanyte 2HKOes with Surf (93.8% chance), and Surskit only 2HKOes with Hydro Pump, so it's not really a great "check" unless Omanyte is already weakened.
 
Not to mention that Shellos crushes it.

Honestly it seems to me that Shell Smash spam is worse than just Omanyte.
 
With Antar as the czar, nothing will ever get banned :(
The Czar is perfectly willing to entertain the notion of banning broken things. But so far, he has not been presented with a compelling case for why anything needs to be banned.
 
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"Everyone else?" There've been like two posts. I'm sorry if it's been unclear, but my above posts questioning Omanyte's brokenness were an attempt to engage in debate--they weren't meant to be final words on the subject.

So far the only argument I've seen in favor of Omanyte's ban is that it wrecks teams that are unprepared for it. That's true of quite a lot of Pokemon. The metagame hasn't existed for long enough that we can assess whether it's "overcentralizing," so that leaves theorymonning: on paper it's too powerful. Ergo, we should quickban it without even testing it.

If people give me some logs showing well-prepared teams getting wrecked by Omanyte, where it's not player skill but just "use of Omanyte" that's the deciding factor in the match, I'm more than willing to ban it. All I have said is that I am so far unconvinced.
 
Okay, I've seen the replay now, but I really feel--and feel free to tell me I'm wrong--the problem was simply that Expulso's team was simply unprepared for Omanyte, and actually a lot of set-up sweepers. I could see Scarf Inkay sweeping the same way, tbh. If he'd had anyone with Sucker Punch or just a bulky Pokemon that could take a +2 Surf (Slowpoke comes to mind--and note that Slowpoke only takes 89% max from +2 HP Electric), Yagura could not have pulled off the sweep. If Hail hadn't been in play, a nice Focus Sasher would have worked as well.

To me, at least, LC is inherently a more offensive metagame. Sweeps happen, and I don't think that it necessarily means that something needs to be banned just because one talented player 5-0's another.

But, again, argue with me. I'm itching to be convinced I'm wrong.

Edit: Also, Eviolite Snover takes a +2 Ice Beam and lives at 5+ HP. :/
 
First of all there aren't much Pokémon with priority in LC UU, the only notable Sucker Punch Pokémon are Glameow, Zorua and Poochyena but even then they can't do much:

252+ Atk Poochyena Sucker Punch vs. -1 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Glameow Sucker Punch vs. -1 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 8-10 (38 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
76 Atk Zorua Sucker Punch vs. -1 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 7-10 (33.3 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Same thing goes for Mach Punchers:

236 Atk Magby Mach Punch vs. -1 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 8-10 (38 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
236+ Atk Tyrogue Mach Punch vs. -1 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 8-12 (38 - 57.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO


So yeah, most notable Pokémon how are able to take Omanyte down with priority aren't LC UU (Timburr, Croagunk..). About Slowpoke being able to tank Omanyte's hits it can't do much back (please note that Grass Knot is 20BP when used on Omanyte) and the fact that everything in the tier gets 2HKOed in the worst scenario by it makes have zero safe switch-ins once it sets up so the only solution is to sack something and revenge kill it with either using a bulky phazer like Munchlax, a Pokémon that can tank a hit and OHKO back like Power Whip Lickitung, or a really fast scarfer like Elekid. Also, note that Omanyte's physical bulk accompanied by Eviolite makes it set up easily on a lot of physical attackers like Doduo and Taillow making it really easy to without any notable drawbacks.
 
Yagura, the Sucker Punch point is that the successful strategy for dealing with Shell Smashers is to punish the user (as Expulso did in your match) on the Shell Smash turn, getting them down to a point where priority or a weak attack from a bulky Pokemon can take it out (Slowpoke's Scald does 33% minimum, Psychic does 43%+). Yes, it basically means that Omanyte pretty much gets one guaranteed kill, and if Omanyte gets a crit, it's gg...

Okay, yeah, I think I'm talking myself into this... I'm like 50% there but keep talking.

On the other side, if anyone wants to *keep* Omanyte in the tier, speak now or forever hold your peace.

Also, you forgot Stunky. :p
 
Yagura, the Sucker Punch point is that the successful strategy for dealing with Shell Smashers is to punish the user (as Expulso did in your match) on the Shell Smash turn, getting them down to a point where priority or a weak attack from a bulky Pokemon can take it out (Slowpoke's Scald does 33% minimum, Psychic does 43%+). Yes, it basically means that Omanyte pretty much gets one guaranteed kill, and if Omanyte gets a crit, it's gg...

Okay, yeah, I think I'm talking myself into this... I'm like 50% there but keep talking.

On the other side, if anyone wants to *keep* Omanyte in the tier, speak now or forever hold your peace.

Also, you forgot Stunky. :p
I was going to mention stunky but then I read your post :(. Anyways my problem with omanyte is the one yagura brings up. Unless you hit it hard the turn it smashes it is not easily revenge killed by either priority or things that can take a hit from it. Those walls only do about 50% with scalds and are 2kod by coverage ancient power or hidden power electric. Mantyke is guaranteed to get ohkod by hp electric. However, omanyte will be force to lose 1 hitpoint and gain 1 defense due to iv loss with hp electric. This sort of brings up the question if hp grass should be a considered move for bulky water types to hit omanyte.

+2 196+ SpA Omanyte Ancient Power vs. 228 HP / 100 SpD Eviolite Shellos: 12-15 (44.4 - 55.5%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO

+2 196+ SpA Omanyte Hidden Power Electric vs. 228 HP / 100 SpD Eviolite Shellos: 16-20 (59.2 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 196+ SpA Omanyte Ancient Power vs. 156 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Mantyke: 18-24 (78.2 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

+2 196+ SpA Omanyte Hidden Power Electric vs. 156 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Mantyke: 24-32 (104.3 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Here is some of the return dmg.

36 SpA Mantyke Scald vs. -1 76 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO

0 SpA Shellos Scald vs. -1 76 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO

0 SpA Shellos Earth Power vs. -1 76 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Water walls may not be the best solution from trying to stop an omanyte sweep and thus people are using safer options like purloin, scarf elekid, and, although I haven't seen more than 1 solosis, sash solosis is an easy stop to it. If there was rankings for LC UU I'd say that purloin could end up A ranked. That priority encore, twave, along with knockoff/u-turn is pretty great.
 

Corporal Levi

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I think Omanyte is comparable to many banned sweepers in LC OU, such as Gligar and Swirlix, in that it forces the use of fairly niche and/or otherwise unviable Pokemon to beat. Regarding Sucker Punch/Mach Punch users, Glameow, Poochyena, and Tyrogue are not very good at all, to put it bluntly, and Magby, Zorua and Stunky, although possessing bigger niches, can also often be difficult be difficult to fit onto a team due to their numerous enormous drawbacks (and Magby doesn't even deal that much damage to Omanyte). It doesn't help that Sucker Punch can be stalled out or simply played around through the use of Substitute over a coverage move, completely shifting possible checks and counters in a similar manner to Swords Dance Gligar in particular (depending on whether it chose to run Substitute or Knock Off). This essentially forces the running of Bulky Waters with a Grass-type move (as they otherwise will not usually be able to OHKO due to Omanyte's good Eviolite-boosted bulk), which is severely limiting, not only to teambuilding, but to the Water-type itself because Grass-type coverage usually doesn't offer much. I feel as if the combination of Omanyte's ease in setting up, forcing of at least (but usually more than) one Pokemon to die as a result, and overall sweeping potential pushes it over the edge by quite a margin.
 
Thank you, that did it for me, specifically the Swirlix comparison. I'm pretty sure I felt that Swirlix didn't particularly need to be banned when the subject came up in LC, but that was back when the tier had a lot more threats, and I didn't feel that strongly on the subject. Furthermore, I can't deny that the metagame is a *lot* more fun without The Swirl, so, with all that said,

Omanyte is officially placed in LC BL.

Thank you all for your insights.

I look forward to hearing what's next on the chopping block.
 
Elekid barely not making LC OU will doom UU here. Sporting the best speed in all of LC UU (tying with Voltorb) and having an excellent diverse attacking movepool on both sides can make it on occasion very stressful to predict and play against will make it a top threat for sure. A definitite S tier or top A tier placement.
 
DeathxShinigami, luckily there are plenty of bulky grass- and ground-types to keep it at least somewhat in check. It's also worth noting that Sandshrew in the sand needs minimal investment to outspeed all but scarfed sets (which are easily walled)
 
On Saturday, I'm going to set up an IRC convo to help set the initial viability rankings. In order to qualify for the discussion, you need to be in the top 10 of the ladder. If you're interested in participating and you qualify, shoot me a PM with your Showdown screen name and your Saturday availability (do my sleep-deprived brain a favor and give me the times in EDT, that is, GMT-4).
 
Elekid barely not making LC OU will doom UU here. Sporting the best speed in all of LC UU (tying with Voltorb) and having an excellent diverse attacking movepool on both sides can make it on occasion very stressful to predict and play against will make it a top threat for sure. A definitite S tier or top A tier placement.
Elekid is good but it it's not going to doom UU. Even with LO it lacks the base power to take out many pokes and that's why it's dropped to such a low usage percentage despite have good physical coverage and amazing speed. I'd say it's A rank material.

Edit: It's nice to counter bird spam cause I've seen teams with tailow + dodou and those hit hard.

in that it forces the use of fairly niche and/or otherwise unviable Pokemon to beat.
Purloin and sash solosis are still good without omanyte around. Scarf elekid, on the other hard, is very niche for shell smashers as would be hp grass on water types.
 
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