CAP 19 CAP 19 - Part 7 - Secondary Ability Discussion

[Numbuh 214]

I really like ideas like Sap Sipper, Overcoat, Whatissleep, Infiltrator, and even Gooey and Damp. But if I might bring up a couple abilities... Lightning Rod/Motor Drive and Water Veil might be interesting.

To explain:

• Lightning Rod and Motor Drive allow CAP19 to discourage Electric moves (especially Volt Switch) to nail Gyara, moreso than it already does; the latter also allows it to bolster its Speed instead of its Special Attack, allowing it the potential to pull off a surprise sweep if people get too quick to predict the Gyara switch. The dilemma this double immunity ability pool poses might also allow CAP19 to mindgame the opponent into playing right into its hand. This might outclass Storm Drain, though giving up an immunity to a type it does not already resist is at least some sort of trade-off.
  
• Water Veil is something I thought of while reading this; though it's true that CAP19 is already immune to burns from Scald, that move is hardly the only source of burn in the meta; this allows it to come in on the odd Will-O-Wisp or a weaker Fire move and not have to worry about the residual damage.

It's times like this I sincerely wish Wonder Skin offered complete immunity to status moves, rather than turning into a coin flip... but that would probably be too powerful on this concept anyway.

 

[alexwolf]

• Further increase our selectiveness of counters, by either choosing a secondary ability that grants an immunity that is different from our primary ability. Overlapping with Storm Drain is redundant and therefore useless.
• Something that preforms all of the above criteria, but preforms one or more of the above better then Storm Drain. Static is a good example of this. It is better suited to preform the third and second criteria then Storm Drain, while still helping keep our counters to primarily non-contact users.

The best abilities that fit those criteria are Static, Insomnia / Vital Spirit / Sap Sipper, and Suction Cups. Static discourages the use of contact moves, making Earthquake users one of the best ways to go about dealing with the CAP, which Gyarados appreciates. It is also unarguably an inferior ability to Storm Drain, as without Storm Drain the CAP can't reliably deal with Keldeo, Azumarill, Alomomola, and Suicune, all of which are huge threats to Gyarados.

Insomnia means that the opponent can't just send specially defensive Amoonguss or specially defensive Mega Venusaur and put the CAP to sleep, and then go to an offensive Pokemon of his choice that can deal with both the CAP and Gyarados, such as Latios, Latias, Psychic Thundurus, etc, which increases the selectiveness of counters to the CAP in order to give Mega Gyarados a better chance of setting up. Again, it is an unarguably inferior ability with much more specific uses than Storm Drain.

Finally, Suction Cups means that the opponent can't go to specially defensive Pokemon with phazing moves to force the CAP out and thus avoid the ''OHKO and get set up on by Gyarados or not OHKO and deal with the CAP'' scenario. For example, specially defensive Hippowdon with Roar can just phaze the CAP instead of OHKOing it with Earthquake, thus avoiding giving to Mega Gyarados a favorable match-up. Yeah Hippowdon can still use Whirlwind against Mega Gyarados after it KOes the CAP with Earthquake, but this comes with a certain risk: does Mega Gyarados have Taunt, so staying in and using Whirlwind means a free set up turn for Gyarados? Will Mega Gyarados set up or attack, and if he attacks while you use Whirlwind, then you have a severely weakened Hippowdon which could allow other threats to sweep your team. This is the kind of pressure we want to put to the opponent, and Suction Cups helps do this against Pokemon such as SpD Heatran, SpD Hippowdon, Dragon Tail Garchomp, and the rare Roar Mega Venusaur. To everyone worrying that this Pokemon may become an unstoppable bulky sweeper than can't be phazed, think again. There are many slower and faster Pokemon with Ground- and Psychic-types moves able to OHKO the CAP, and even if the CAP boosts its defensive stats, it will always go down to Earthquake users. So, even if you are afraid of the CAP getting some boosting moves suited to bulky sweeping, such as Calm Mind or Quiver Dance, don't worry, because the CAP will still have plenty of reliable answers. And of course i don't think i need to explain why Suction Cups is a much more situational ability than Storm Drain. Even with Suction Cups, the same Pokemon counter us, we just limit their choices about how to counter us.

As for abilities we shouldn't go with that haven't already been shot down, we shouldn't go with Filter. Filter means Pokemon that are supposed to OHKO us, such as Extrasensory Greninja and Psyshock Starmie, cannot do this if we go with a bulky spread, and we end up OHKOing them instead, which goes against our checks and counters list and the concept of drawing in certain Pokemon that Mega Gyarados can take advantage of in order to put the opponent into a lose-lose situation.

EDIT: Damp is cool too in theory, preventing the opponent from getting out of the tight situation by OHKOing the CAP with Explosion and avoiding an unfavorable matchup against Gyarados, but it's so damn rare that it's practically the same as NCA.

 

[YellowAdminSilver]

Another ability that I think is getting less credit than it deserves is probably Liquid Ooze. It is extremely situational and entirely outclassed by Storm Drain, but it does allow CAP to punish Ferrothorn and Venusaur, for whatever that's worth

 

[capefeather]

I think that a competitive secondary ability should do three things, two of which are the ones Ignus mentioned, and the last being that we should have reason to believe that the ability will actually be used for intelligent reasons. Otherwise, why bother having a specific ability instead of NCA? For this reason, I'm not much of a fan of what I believe are super-niche abilities like Static, Damp and Cursed Body. True, Jellicent has the water immunity + Cursed Body combo, but it worked... in Gen V... because Jellicent was bulky enough that it would activate a decent amount of the time. Not to mention it was often used to tank physical contact moves, while CAP 19 should probably avoid switching into anything other than a resistance.

Further increase our selectiveness of counters, by choosing a secondary ability that grants an immunity that is different from our primary ability. Overlapping with Storm Drain is redundant and therefore useless.

Overcoat, Vital Spirit / Insomnia, Sap Sipper and (to an extent) Filter fit this. I don't like Filter because it basically just tries to deal with Gardevoir while causing collateral damage to the threat list, in that Starmie would now need Stealth Rock to OHKO cleanly, and Greninja wouldn't be able to OHKO cleanly at all.

Something that preforms all of the above criteria, but preforms one or more of the above better then Storm Drain.

Static and Gooey fit this, and I'd prefer Gooey over Static. Gooey would be more reliable than Static due to its deterministic effect activation. I suppose I might as well point out Trace in this category, too. Like I talked about in the primary ability thread, it would mainly be good against weather sweepers, Regenerator users (Tornadus Therian cleanly 2HKOes with Stealth Rock without investment, though), Heatran, Scolipede and Mawile to an extent.

 

[Sabreholo]

I put my support behind Insomnia, Sap Sipper, and Suction Cups. I would also like to suggest Flare Boost. I believe that Insomnia and Sap Sipper would both be useful in helping us beat Breloom or Amoongus as both block spore. The difference between the two comes down to Insomnia blocking the odd Dark Void in addition to spore; while Sap Sipper enables us to be able to be able to stay in against Ferrothorn. Both of these are inferior to Storm drain Insomnia only blocks sleep (pretty much only Spore is relevant) and Sap Sipper gives an immunity to a typing we already resist, and a boost that we cannot use; thus both of these abilities are less useful than Storm Drain, but have their niche.
Suction Cups as alexwolf stated prevents use from being phazed out, and thus our opponent avoids the situation our concept is trying to create (specifically this allows use to still be beaten by Hippowdon but not able to be whirlwinded out, circumventing our set up and sweep by M-Gyarados).
Now as for Flare Boost I believe it can help our concept by discouraging other methods of burning other than just scald from being used, and thus helping prevent Gyarados from being burned, which would throw a huge wrench into the circumstance we aim to create. It also re-enforces our difficulty to wall which we were aiming for if we happened to be burned. However, this is still inferior to Storm Drain as we only prevent one or two other burning moves that Storm Drain doesn't already prevent (Will-O-Wisp and perhaps Lava Plume) as well as CAP would lack the immunity granted to it by the primary ability. In addition to this, the additional power granted to the CAP via Flare Boost is equivalent to the +1 it gains from switching in on a water type move, but with added damage each turn.
Thus to reiterate, I support the previous suggestions of Insomnia, Sap Sipper, and Suction Cups; while also suggesting Flare Boost as our secondary ability.

 

[Vann Accessible]

Flare Boost + Flame Orb + 131 Sp Attack = 196.5 Special Attack o_O

Cute idea, but very easily abused in turning CAP19 into a sweeper.

 

[P3DS]

Another ability that I think is getting less credit than it deserves is probably Liquid Ooze. It is extremely situational and entirely outclassed by Storm Drain, but it does allow CAP to punish Ferrothorn and Venusaur, for whatever that's worth

Oooh. That's devious.... I like it

 

[Don Cacturne]

Static and Gooey seem the most appropriate abilities, for both concept and flavor. Gooey is arguable more powerful than Static, being more reliable, but for the sake of the concept, Static is much more apropos considering the higher permanence; but Gooey is still better than things like filter, vital spirit, damp and other bland abilities. Also, abilities like No Guard, Technician, and Sap Sipper are mindless buffs that detract from the concept, and just tries to make a sweeper.

Other notable mentions are Aftermath, Cursed Body, and Flame Body. All of these fit the concept very aptly. The latter two seem to be a stretch in the flavor, for what it's worth. Aftermath is just much more conditional than Static or Gooey.

 

[Hanketsu7787]

I'm going to suggest Marvel Scale as a secondary. The 1.5x defense boost sounds nice until you realize you have to be burned or if we give CAP19 Sleep Talk/Rest to really capitalize on it. All it would really accomplish would be giving it a more specific niche as a WOW absorber for MGyra and is nowhere near as an attractive option as Storm Drain. Immunity+Boost is better than Passive Damage+Boost by far.

 

[ginganinja]

Giving this a 24 hour warning before I close this up and start looking at a slate.

 

[Sun King]

I'm going to suggest Marvel Scale as a secondary. The 1.5x defense boost sounds nice until you realize you have to be burned or if we give CAP19 Sleep Talk/Rest to really capitalize on it. All it would really accomplish would be giving it a more specific niche as a WOW absorber for MGyra and is nowhere near as an attractive option as Storm Drain. Immunity+Boost is better than Passive Damage+Boost by far.

I had initially suggested Marvel Scale back in the Primary thread because I was hoping we'd end up with a more defensive build (which we didn't). While I think we could do some shenanigans with RestTalk+STABs, they completely detract from CAP's job supporting Mega Gyarados. The way I see it, in order for us to overcome Mega Gyarados' defensive counters, it is absolutely IMPERATIVE that we carry HP Fire for Ferrothorn. Running RestTalk robs us of some very necessary coverage.

EDIT: Snipped stuff about CAP metagame.

 

[NumberCruncher]

I'm going to suggest Marvel Scale as a secondary. The 1.5x defense boost sounds nice until you realize you have to be burned or if we give CAP19 Sleep Talk/Rest to really capitalize on it. All it would really accomplish would be giving it a more specific niche as a WOW absorber for MGyra and is nowhere near as an attractive option as Storm Drain. Immunity+Boost is better than Passive Damage+Boost by far.

I think you're forgetting that we can just hold a Flame Orb on this guy for the defense bolster. While Storm Drain's boost is better, it's also situational. Marvel Scale has a condition we can guarantee happens. Given that the defensive spread was built to maximize its boost from Wish support, I could see this discouraging Pokemon we don't want to discourage.

 

[CerberusSONE]

I think we should consider an ability that can aid the other Dragon-Dancers. We've been focusing a lot on Gyarados and its Mega as if that's the only Pokemon we're going to help set up after we faint.

What does Dragonite not like? Can we give CAP19 an ability that can weaken some of Dragonite's exclusive counters -counters that Gyarados does not share with Dragonite- and help the latter set up?
I'd like the same to be considered for Mega Charizard X.

Dragonite is not really a fan of Stealth Rock since that ruins its chances of setting up. Multiscale use is nil once it's taken damage.
We should also try and discuss what kind of ability would help Multiscale DD Dragonite.

I'll edit this later to suggest some abilities.

 

[YellowAdminSilver]

I think we should consider an ability that can aid the other Dragon-Dancers. We've been focusing a lot on Gyarados and its Mega as if that's the only Pokemon we're going to help set up after we faint.

What does Dragonite not like? Can we give CAP19 an ability that can weaken some of Dragonite's exclusive counters -counters that Gyarados does not share with Dragonite- and help the latter set up?
I'd like the same to be considered for Mega Charizard X.

Dragonite is not really a fan of Stealth Rock since that ruins its chances of setting up. Multiscale use is nil once it's taken damage.
We should also try and discuss what kind of ability would help Multiscale DD Dragonite.

I'll edit this later to suggest some abilities.

Sounds like a great enough idea, except that I don't think there's a lot that we can acomplish in that sense through ability alone. Things that Dragonite/Char X dislike include paralysis (which CAP is already immune to thanks to its typing), poison (ditto), burn (which CAP doesn't mind due to its stat distribution), sand (breaks Multiscale, but unless CAP is given its own weather-setting ability...) and SR. The only ways, ability-wise, that I can think of that can make CAP get rid of SR are Magic Bounce and Prankster combined with Taunt, and we already agreed that those are abilities that are just generically good and would push CAP over the top.
Hopefully it's just me being non-creative, because this sounds like a pretty cool idea.

(There's also the combination of Scrappy + Rapid Spin, but that's just dumb imo)

 

[Emerald Master]

(There's also the combination of Scrappy + Rapid Spin, but that's just dumb imo)

how about oblivious+defog?

 

[YellowAdminSilver]

I think you mean Unaware + Defog... Which actually sound pretty cool, since CAP can stay in against the most relevant Defiant user, Bisharp, and loses to most (if not all, because everything has EQ) SR setters. It does give the other player something to think about, as in "Do I kill CAP with Earthquake after he Defogs but leave Dragonite's Multiscale intact, or do I make sure that SR is still up for when Dragonite comes in but risk CAP getting more damage in?" This does sound 100% movepool-dependant though, and idk if I'm missing something else... Better wait for feedback from someone who doesn't suck at pokemon AKA not me

 

[P3DS]

I think you mean Unaware + Defog... Which actually sound pretty cool, since CAP can stay in against the most relevant Defiant user, Bisharp, and loses to most (if not all, because everything has EQ) SR setters. It does give the other player something to think about, as in "Do I kill CAP with Earthquake after he Defogs but leave Dragonite's Multiscale intact, or do I make sure that SR is still up for when Dragonite comes in but risk CAP getting more damage in?" This does sound 100% movepool-dependant though, and idk if I'm missing something else... Better wait for feedback from someone who doesn't suck at pokemon AKA not me

Defog actually sounds like something that could work with the CAP. However, unaware probably overshadows storm drain. Probably this would be something to discuss for it's HA?

 

[Salt]

Okay guys, the last thing we want to be doing is suggesting move+ability combos. That is explicit poll jumping. Furthermore, things like Scrappy and Unaware are NOT good abilities for us to have anyways. I shouldn't have to explain why they're total distractions from the concept.

So this post isn't totally useless, I'll post some brief final thoughts on the abilities:

THINGS I LIKE:

NCA: This has zero potential to become a dangerous distraction. I really think we can get by without a secondary ability. Picking a nearly useless ability that might as well be NCA is a waste, and any other ability might be too dangerous for us to choose.

Sleep Immunities: I like these because the niche of handling Breloom, Mega Venusaur, etc. is useful but doesn't in any way overshadow the usefulness of handling Keldeo, Azumarill, etc. via Storm Drain. It's probably the only set of abilities that do something useful and important without eclipsing Storm Drain. The matter of Vital Spirit/Insomnia vs. Overcoat vs. Sap Sipper is really just a matter of preference.



THINGS I DON'T LIKE:
Filter: I know I initially suggested this ability, but I realize it's not a good idea. Though we avoid the KO from Mega Gardevoir, we won't have enough HP remaining to do anything useful. It's basically dead anyways, and we're not supposed to be using CAP as death fodder. Plus, ruining KOs from Greninja and Starmie is too much of a tradeoff.

Infiltrator: This doesn't really accomplish much. SubSeed is an unviable strategy for the most part, and Gliscor isn't an enemy we should be concerned about. If we use Hidden Power Ice, it will be pressured to attack us without setting up a substitute. If we don't have HP ice, then we lose anyways.

Technician/Sheer Force: Simple DAMAGE++ is bad. These have been shot down already, and so I don't need to explain why I don't like them, but I'm reiterating for emphasis.

Aftermath: I'm guessing this was suggested only because people forgot why it was a bad idea in the first place. Not only does "discourage KO, slap aftermath on, gg" sound like a bad premise, Aftermath isn't even pro concept. 25% is a sizable chunk of HP, and may rob us of a setup opportunity.

I'm indifferent to mostly everything else.

 

[CerberusSONE]

Okay, some credit to Punchshroom to having the complete list of counters and strategies that Dragonite struggles against.
Here's a reference to the bulk of them.
Dragonite does not like:
1. Fairies (complete Outrage immunity) and Steel types (Outrage resistance)
2. Ice-type MOVES and users (Kyurem-B, Protean Greninja, Cloyster, to a lesser extent.
3. Physically Bulkymons (Quagsire, Gliscor, Skarmory, StonEdge LandoT)
4. Faster Opponents (Talonflame, ScarfChomp, ScarfLandoT, ScarfTerrakion)
5. Status, Leech Seed, Sand (Hail to a lesser Extent), and Stealth Rock.

How CAP already handles/can handle these threats to Dragonite:

1. Already resists both Fairy and Steel with its typing
2. Neutral to Ice moves, but weak to Protean Greninja with Extrasensory, as well as Mamoswine with Sash, but we can't KO it even with our STABs. Offensive Mamoswine is usually not bulky, so if CAP19 had Tinted Lens, a STAB Poison move can deal enough damage to let Dragonite be a problem when Mamoswine KO's CAP19 with EQ.
However, Tinted Lens then makes us a threat to a lot of Ground types that Gyarados can set up on, so with this risk of being coupled with Gyarados rather than Dragonite, I wouldn't want Tinted Lens slated for the secondary ability (this is actually quite dangerous as I learned in the primary ability discussion).
We are a threat to Cloyster in terms of both stats and typing.
Kyurem-B is a pretty good counter to Dragonite, but we really can't have an ability that can deter its presence/counter it.
3. The first two of these physically bulkymons I mention can supplement my post. We are immune to Gliscor's Toxc and can threaten it with HP Ice. However, should Quagsire carry Yawn, rather than Toxic (I'm not the only one that does this, right?), I think CAP19 can take advantage of a Sleep Immunity ability, we can wall it as well. Sponging these moves might help Dragonite set up successfully.
Marvel Scale can also take advantage of Quagsire with Scald, something that Dragonite does not like even with Multiscale and a resistance. The only gripe with this is that Flame Orb+Marvel Scale can be either abused or actually yield zero benefit (purely hypothesis; I need calcs on this).
Skarmory is taken care of already.
4. Most of the fast opponents that Dragonite does not like are holding Scarf, and therefore may pose a problem towards CAP19 + Dragonite. Abilities may not be the solution to these counters so I'll hold off on them now.
5. DD Dragonite does not like Status, two of the four we are immune to. Again, Sleep and Burn pose a problem to Dragonite, as well as Sand. Based on this, I'd want CAP19 to have Overcoat(supporting this now), or an ability that can take advantage of non Spore-induced Sleep and Burn. Marvel Scale and Guts both accomplish this. The former runs the risk of doing too much for or unsatisfying our goal of helping Dragonite set up. The latter doesn't help us at all.

Our primary goal was to help DD Gyarados, and we built a CAP with a primary ability to accomplish that. If we can make the secondary ability put us a step closer to a secondary goal (DragonDancinite) we can open up to more counters and possibly be available to more set up sweepers.

 

[ginganinja]

No Competitive Ability
Vital Spirit / Insomnia
Sap Sipper
Static

Everything here should be fairly self explanatory, the only question mark is the separation of Sap Sipper and Vital Spirit. After a bit of reflection, I decided Sap Sippers primary purpose is to act as a safe Leach Seed Absorber, as well as retaining the ability to be immune to both Sleep Powder and Spore. As a bonus, it also lets it take random Power Whips from Ferro, or maybe a Giga Drain from Amoonguss. Vital Spirit only covers the sleep moves, and while competitively speaking Sap Sipper is potentially the better ability, several posts outlined the Atk boost being personally unfavourable to them, so I left it up to you.

Please standby for Pwnemon to post something that may or may not be important for you all to read.

 

[Stratos]

Ignus is right that a secondary ability should not just be *good* but should still be following the same criteria as a primary ability for selection. And of those, the main criterion that stuck out to me was selectiveness. Are there things that can currently beat both CAP19 and Mega Gyarados? If so, we should use the Secondary Ability to perhaps increase our power to filter out threats so that the opponent doesn't get an "easy way out" to beat both Pokemon with the same Pokemon, ruining our whole "damned if i do, damned if i don't" scenario.

Apart from the ones ginganinja has slated, I don't see many abilities suggested in the thread that actually work towards this, besides what ginganinja has slated. And honestly, whatever is chosen, Storm Drain will be vastly superior, so it doesn't particularly matter. Aftermath *seems* pro-concept but can be used to actually help the opponent, throwing a low-hp pokemon away on CAP19 for the free double switch (and nothing the CAP is weak to is a contact move). Cursed Body also doesn't make too much sense because Gyarados and the CAP don't share any weaknesses. But it can work with other non-Gyarados Pokemon, I guess, in a way that works with the concept. None of the other suggested abilities have any concept justification. So i'll be using my +1 power to add Cursed Body to the slate.