Project The PU Viability Ranking Thread

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Hey Call me 911, I hate to be that guy, but it's against the rules here to douple/triple post. Next time try to clutter things into one post or at least acknowledge that you're aware that you're double/triple posting. Sorry if I broke any rules here.

That said, I'm kind of curious as to why Gourgeist-Small is one rank less than Gourgeist-Super. I think Gourgeist-Small is just as useful as Gourgeist-Super, it can function as a speedier spinblocker that still packs nice physical bulk, it can outspeed unboosted Barbaracle and OHKO with Seed Bomb. It also makes for a neat fast SubSeeder and a fast Will-O-Wisp is nice too. Its Speed is just as useful as Gourgeist-Super's extra bulk so the two should at least be in the same rank imo.

Basculin is pretty scary imo and should be a little higher imo. Adaptability Waterfall with a CB in tow hits very hard and makes Basculin quite the nice wallbreaker, while Aqua Jet as priority and generaly having nice Speed is cool too. Its movepool is small but it has plenty to hit with, Superpower is kind of nice, it has Zen Headbutt for Poliwrath, etc. It's a really good wallbreaker with a nice Speed too so it should move up a little notch or two imo.

Call me crazy but I think Bouffalant could be A Rank. It's pretty powerful offensively, and has a nice movepool to hurt stuff with, which makes it a nice bulky attacker. Speaking of which, Bouffalant is also impressively bulky, it takes hits surprisingly well which makes it a nice tank, being able to take anything that isn't a Fighting-type move and being able to retaliate for excellent damage. Sap Sipper is also an awesome ability which allows Bouffalant to come in on Serperior and Tangela for absolutely free, and being able to take advantage of Grass-types is great right now. That extra Attack boost can only make Bouffalant even more scary, and allow it to pack a bigger punch against teams, especially once you manage to remove Ghost-types from the picture.

This nom might be a little absurd but I think Dusknoir should probably be around D+, maybe C- though that's probably pushing it. It doesn't kill anything, but it can make it hard for the opponent to kill it. It's pretty fat and can create opportunities for itself with Will-O-Wisp, and in general be pretty tough to take down. Pain Split is also kind of nice to let it hang around for a bit. It also hits with okay strength for what it does, and having EQ is nice too to hit Barbaracle and Carracosta (and trash bag). This tier doesn't have Golurk so Dusknoir can afford to run a few offensive sets as well, such as a CB set or something like SubPunch to attract Sneasel and smash with with Focus Punch. I think TR+D-Bond is workable too. It's still not a great mon, since it's weak to Knock Off, and lacks reliable recovery, but it is a workable mon that can do well in some cases, so I don't think it belongs with complete garbage like Sudowoodo, Mothim, and lol Pikachu.

Finally, I agree with moving Zebstrika down. It's a nice mon for its fast Volt Switch and decent coverage but it's really weak for what it does imo. Lightningrod and Volt Switch are pretty much what make it good. It can't really OHKO anything and it's very frail so it should be around B, even though it has a good niche in the tier.

There are also a few mons that should be moved down to at least E, like Stantler, Unfezant, and Clefairy, scorpdestroyer summed it up well imo.

 

[Call me 911]

Hey Call me 911, I hate to be that guy, but it's against the rules here to douple/triple post. Next time try to clutter things into one post or at least acknowledge that you're aware that you're double/triple posting. Sorry if I broke any rules here.

That said, I'm kind of curious as to why Gourgeist-Small is one rank less than Gourgeist-Super. I think Gourgeist-Small is just as useful as Gourgeist-Super, it can function as a speedier spinblocker that still packs nice physical bulk, it can outspeed unboosted Barbaracle and OHKO with Seed Bomb. It also makes for a neat fast SubSeeder and a fast Will-O-Wisp is nice too. Its Speed is just as useful as Gourgeist-Super's extra bulk so the two should at least be in the same rank imo.

Basculin is pretty scary imo and should be a little higher imo. Adaptability Waterfall with a CB in tow hits very hard and makes Basculin quite the nice wallbreaker, while Aqua Jet as priority and generaly having nice Speed is cool too. Its movepool is small but it has plenty to hit with, Superpower is kind of nice, it has Zen Headbutt for Poliwrath, etc. It's a really good wallbreaker with a nice Speed too so it should move up a little notch or two imo.

Call me crazy but I think Bouffalant could be A Rank. It's pretty powerful offensively, and has a nice movepool to hurt stuff with, which makes it a nice bulky attacker. Speaking of which, Bouffalant is also impressively bulky, it takes hits surprisingly well which makes it a nice tank, being able to take anything that isn't a Fighting-type move and being able to retaliate for excellent damage. Sap Sipper is also an awesome ability which allows Bouffalant to come in on Serperior and Tangela for absolutely free, and being able to take advantage of Grass-types is great right now. That extra Attack boost can only make Bouffalant even more scary, and allow it to pack a bigger punch against teams, especially once you manage to remove Ghost-types from the picture.

This nom might be a little absurd but I think Dusknoir should probably be around D+, maybe C- though that's probably pushing it. It doesn't kill anything, but it can make it hard for the opponent to kill it. It's pretty fat and can create opportunities for itself with Will-O-Wisp, and in general be pretty tough to take down. Pain Split is also kind of nice to let it hang around for a bit. It also hits with okay strength for what it does, and having EQ is nice too to hit Barbaracle and Carracosta (and trash bag). This tier doesn't have Golurk so Dusknoir can afford to run a few offensive sets as well, such as a CB set or something like SubPunch to attract Sneasel and smash with with Focus Punch. I think TR+D-Bond is workable too. It's still not a great mon, since it's weak to Knock Off, and lacks reliable recovery, but it is a workable mon that can do well in some cases, so I don't think it belongs with complete garbage like Sudowoodo, Mothim, and lol Pikachu.

Finally, I agree with moving Zebstrika down. It's a nice mon for its fast Volt Switch and decent coverage but it's really weak for what it does imo. Lightningrod and Volt Switch are pretty much what make it good. It can't really OHKO anything and it's very frail so it should be around B, even though it has a good niche in the tier.

There are also a few mons that should be moved down to at least E, like Stantler, Unfezant, and Clefairy, scorpdestroyer summed it up well imo.

My apologies, as you migh have noticed I'm quite new to the forums so I'm glad someone politely helps me with this :)
Definately agreeing on basculin and dusknoir rising up a rank and zebstrika dropping one. For the list of mons that should drop to E I agree on all but clefairy, which is one of the few fairy types. It has great defenses and performs the role of wish passing very well. It also gets useful utility moves in status and hazards so I really don't think that it should be dropping to E. Stantler and unfezant however are outclassed by so many mons that there is little use for them in the tier.
~Call me 911

 

[Ranger Mike]

Butterfree to B Might seem rather odd but this mon has been really solid in taking down mons such as Mushy and Roselia, it pulls a lot of weight versus garb too thanks to tinted lens.

calcs

+1 252 SpA Tinted Lens Butterfree Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 186-220 (48.4 - 57.2%) -- 44.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Butterfree Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 108-127 (35.5 - 41.7%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
+1 252 SpA Tinted Lens Butterfree Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Haunter: 136-162 (58.8 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Tinted Lens Butterfree Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Flareon: 156-186 (57.5 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after toxic damage

And this isn't even factoring in modest! However taht would be oversekking it to be quite frank. I have played with it a lot after the ladder is a thing even though it's aids and feel that it pulls a decent amount of weight on my team. If I need more proof then I shall provide

 

[Hewhoamareismyself]

Dusclops from D+ to C/C+

It's a really versatile wall, and takes less than 25% health from most everything, the notable exceptions being Carracosta and Sneasel.

252 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 75-90 (26.4 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Krokorok Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusclops: 104-126 (36.6 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusclops: 135-164 (47.5 - 57.7%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dusclops: 250-296 (88 - 104.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

The above are just about the only things I would ever switch Dusclops out of if it's not already protected by a substitute. Meaning I'm not bringing it in against these guys because first turn sub always. (I've probably missed one or two it's 1:30 AM and I'm mostly working on math homework as I'm doing this)

For the most part though, even the strong attackers of PU can barely break it's substitutes meaning once it's behind a sub it can wreak all sorts of havoc from pain splitting and getting that health back, burning any offensive attacker trying to wear it down, or chipping away at it. Nothing is safe to switch in without getting set up upon (and by set up upon I mean subbing so that it doesn't risk a knock off or anything like that. It also serves the purpose of lowering health a little bit more so it gets more out of pain split)

252 SpA Life Orb Chatot Chatter vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 58-70 (20.4 - 24.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

If you were curious confusion damage is incredibly negligible as well, so it can stay in a while.

There are just so many situations where I'm able to bring in Dusclops at 30% health with rocks down, and still get pain split off. There's just so little in this tier that hits Dusclops effectively, it brings any momentum gained to a rapid halt. I'm inclined to say B, (especially if Avalugg is in B-) but I get overzealous with my ratings.

 

[termi]

I'm not that experienced with PU (or even NU for that matter). I just came here because I thought the concept of a PU tier is pretty hilarious. But here's my opinion anyway:

Dunsparce to C+.

I feel as though people underestimate Dunsparce. Dunsparce can wreck house if players come unprepared. Now that Glare has 100% accuracy, his role as a paraflincher is astounding. His HP stat is pretty solid and he gets access to multiple flinching moves such as STAB Headbutt, Rock Slide, and Bite (although bite might not be the best move to use.) Add that to the fact that with a King's Rock, his paraflinching chances are now 85% (if I calculated correctly), then he could cause some major rage. Add THAT to the fact that he has access to viable recovery by Roosting, you have one aggravating snake-thing.

However, he's not perfect. He could be easily killed by Poliwrath due to his horrible speed and blocked by any Throh with Limber.

All-in-all, he's a descent Pokemon whose sole purpose is to cause rage who I think deserves more than D+

Throh doesn't learn Limber.

Anyway, I'll be contrarian and suggest we move Dunsparce down to E. Dunsparce is entirely outclassed at everything bar paraflinch afaik, and paraflinch is a luck-based non-strategy that shouldn't be taken into account when rating a Pokemon's viability. We kept Regigigas down in E for the exact same reason so idk why Dunsparce would deserve a higher rank. We shouldn't encourage anyone to use something that relies on luck.

Dusclops from D+ to C/C+

It's a really versatile wall, and takes less than 25% health from most everything, the notable exceptions being Carracosta and Sneasel.

252 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 75-90 (26.4 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Krokorok Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusclops: 104-126 (36.6 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusclops: 135-164 (47.5 - 57.7%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dusclops: 250-296 (88 - 104.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

The above are just about the only things I would ever switch Dusclops out of if it's not already protected by a substitute. Meaning I'm not bringing it in against these guys because first turn sub always. (I've probably missed one or two it's 1:30 AM and I'm mostly working on math homework as I'm doing this)

For the most part though, even the strong attackers of PU can barely break it's substitutes meaning once it's behind a sub it can wreak all sorts of havoc from pain splitting and getting that health back, burning any offensive attacker trying to wear it down, or chipping away at it. Nothing is safe to switch in without getting set up upon (and by set up upon I mean subbing so that it doesn't risk a knock off or anything like that. It also serves the purpose of lowering health a little bit more so it gets more out of pain split)

252 SpA Life Orb Chatot Chatter vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 58-70 (20.4 - 24.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

If you were curious confusion damage is incredibly negligible as well, so it can stay in a while.

There are just so many situations where I'm able to bring in Dusclops at 30% health with rocks down, and still get pain split off. There's just so little in this tier that hits Dusclops effectively, it brings any momentum gained to a rapid halt. I'm inclined to say B, (especially if Avalugg is in B-) but I get overzealous with my ratings.

The problem with Dusclops is that it is very much deadweight on any team due to how little utility it has. All it can do is burn stuff and annoy you for a bit with Seismic Toss and Pain Split, but it generally doesn't have any utility on a stall team (which is the only teamstyle it should be used on in the first place). In addition to that, it faces a lot of competition from other Ghosts: Misdreavus might not be quite as bulky as it, but has a great utility movepool for any stall team: Bar Will-o, Pain Split and Shadow Ball it is free to run any of Taunt (nice because Missy is pretty fast), Heal Bell (essential for any stall team) and Perish Song (allowing it to pseudo-phaze). It also has Levitate, giving it a Ground immunity, and, more importantly, an immunity to (Toxic) Spikes, making it harder to wear down than Dusclops. Meanwhile, Gourgeist has a cool secondary Grass typing that gives it a couple of extra resistances, but more importantly doesn't get worn down quickly due to having Lefties and Leech Seed to keep itself alive, unlike Dusclops, which is reliant on Eviolite for bulk and Pain Split for recovery.

Using Dusclops is hard to justify tbh, so yeah, it's fine where it is. PS Avalugg is higher because it is a defensive spinner with reliable recovery, which is pretty big.

 

[Marxman]

A few random noms after playing both a balanced team and a HO team a decent amount.

Gogoat B+ -> A-/A
I've been in love with this mon so far. He packs surprising bulk, has reliable recovery with Milk Drink AND Horn Leech, gets great coverage between Horn Leech and Rock Slide, can setup with Bulk Up to be an actual threat, and can abuse Sap Sipper on some annoying mons like Gourgeist and Serperior. His issues are vulnerability to Will-O and Toxic, and slightly worse coverage than you'd like for a sweeper. Also, the things he can abuse with Sap Sipper also just happen to carry Will-O 99% of the time. (Effing Gourgeist...) He's still performed very well for me with proper support.

Basculin B -> A-
Adaptability Choice Band Waterfall for days. It's a small niche, but this thing is crazy powerful.

Gigalith C+ -> B-
Suffers from Golem existing, but other than that he's a very bulky hazard setter and can take something out with a bang if necessary. I do think he's mostly outclassed by Golem, aside from a few corner cases. He's not weak to Ice and doesn't auto-die to Water/Grass, for one. Golem does carry Sturdy to negate that weakness though.

Scyther A -> A+
Fantastic bulk with Eviolite, great power before SD and crazy power afterwards. Technician Quick Attack is a thing. You can even run Roost if you want to take better advantage of his surprising bulk. I've been a big fan so far. The stealth rock weakness is real, but can be worked around.

Wailord C- -> C+
I'm pretty sure Wailord only runs 1 set, Scarf with Water Spout... but it's a pretty sweet niche to have. It also gets good coverage with Ice Beam and HP Grass or Fire. It's not going to be contending for S-rank anytime soon, but I do think it's a cool niche threat.

 

[Kushalos]

Avalugg to A-/A

I have to agree, this thing may not be the best hazard remover there is, but the wide arrange of mon it walls is insane! It switches in on top threats like Sneasel, Marowak, Bouffalant, Scyther and Torterra just to name a few physical attackers. I've actually tried a spdef set as well and that's no joke either:
0 SpA Roselia Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Avalugg: 109-129 (27.7 - 32.8%) -- 75.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Rotom-F Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Avalugg: 144-169 (36.6 - 43%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Avalugg: 148-177 (37.6 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

It can do all this while still not being just another wall by having access to Rapid Spin, and offensively it has its good Ice typing going for it and it's above average base 117 attack.

 

[imaloony]

Anyway, I'll be contrarian and suggest we move Dunsparce down to E. Dunsparce is entirely outclassed at everything bar paraflinch afaik, and paraflinch is a luck-based non-strategy that shouldn't be taken into account when rating a Pokemon's viability. We kept Regigigas down in E for the exact same reason so idk why Dunsparce would deserve a higher rank. We shouldn't encourage anyone to use something that relies on luck.

I'm going to counter this point. I have yet to test it, but Dunsparce should get some consideration above E for one reason: Coil + Rollout. This combo is very scary, and given how bulky Dunsparce can get (Especially with a couple of Coils under its belt), it could be a bulky sweeper. If nothing else, Glare is a great support move, regardless of parahax. It also gets Roost (Somehow) and Stealth Rock, so I'd say hold off on beating Dunsparce with the Rank-E stick for now.

 

[Mistress Remilia]

I agree with Dusknoir going up, i've been using two sets, TR Offense and Banded with Trick.
It's definitly better than D- imo, it has okay coverage, very decent bulk, and 100 BS Attack shouldn't be underestimated.
Honestly, Dusknoir's versatility in PU is what makes him stand up from his brother, Dusclops.
I wouldn't say it's the best pokemon ever, but it's pretty nice for sure, it's an okay offensive ghost that can be played defensively too.

 

[WhiteDMist]

I'm only going to comment on the ones I either agree or disagree with. Everything else needs more discussion, I have no experience using/facing, or I'm neutral about.

Dusclops from D+ to C/C+: I agree that Dusclops isn't terrible. It does its job of being a bulky spinblocker well enough. That being said, there are far better walls in the tier that have better utility, and other Ghost-types that have more use on more offensive teams, such as Misdreavus and Gourgeist-XL/S. It is so very passive that the rest of the team must pick up the slack. There are only 2 viable spinners in the tier as well, so spinblocking isn't really that important. Of course, walling Avalugg is great, but you still cannot prevent Wartortle from spinning due to Foresight and lack of Taunt, nor threaten it significantly enough to prevent it from continuously spinning. So my main point is that it is hard to fit Dusclops on anything but a stall team, and even then it competes with the better resistances/immunities of other Ghost-types For its positive points, I'd be fine with C- though, but even then it's a stretch.

Dusknoir from D- to D+: Better offenses, ability to hold Leftovers, and same moves as Dusclops. Still not too powerful, and both are weak to Knock Off so the difference in power is the only positive point imo. Less crippled by Trick at least :/ D+

Scyther from A to A+: It literally has one major flaw, and that is Stealth Rock. It can run CB and Eviolite SD very well, and it can even use Baton Pass. Good coverage with Knock Off and Brick Break means it doesn't really need Bug Bite for anything (except maybe Musharna), while that good Speed means that it outspeeds a large portion of the unboosted metagame. Top that of with usable priority and decent resistances and I think that this can make the jump to A+. That being said, it does require Defog/spin support to perform at its best which might be limiting enough to keep it at A. Let's have more discussion about this.

Avalugg from B- to A-/A: I agree that this should rise up, but I disagree with how high. It's definitely a great wall/tank and it has decent offensive presence too. The problem is that people think of it mostly as a spinner when it really is better as an offensive tank that just happens to have Rapid Spin. It's low Speed may make Avalanche work better, but it does it no other favors generally (I really don't think Gyro Ball is worthwhile as it doesn't provide too much helpful coverage nor does it have the PP to really be spammable). Its typing is still pretty terrible and it still fails to break the Ghost that it should be able to beat with its typing (Gourgeist) as it is very vulnerable to Will-O-Wisp/Toxic. It really doesn't fit onto most teams except perhaps bulky offensive/balanced teams that don't solely rely on defensive synergy and yet can afford to have a Pokemon this slow due to its sheer numerical bulk. With all this taken to account, B+ is the highest I think it should go (personally I would prefer B but let's see what other people think).

 

[Ares]

Glad to see the thread is up and running, kept looking for it every time I came to the PU thread.

Corsola and Noctowl from D to E. Why would I use Corsola? Regenerator and Recover is hardly enough to make up for how frail and passive it is. Noctowl is also kinda terrible and outclassed.

Scorp I dont think you know the bulk that is Noctowl...this thing is surprisingly bulky. With 100hp and 96 SpD it makes a pretty great special wall. the tribalt used to use it on a team in NU, and it would take hits for days. I havent played PU enough to suggest a good rank for it, but if anything I believe it can move up. Things going for it: surprisingly bulky, access to defog, access to roost, access to whirlwind. Pretty much a good set I've seen looks like: Roost/Defog/Night Shade/Whirlwind, try it out Scorp and I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Things going for it: surprisingly bulky, access to defog, access to roost, access to whirlwind. Pretty much a good set I've seen looks like: Roost/Defog/Night Shade/Whirlwind, try it out Scorp and I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

Vullaby can do the exact same thing except with a better typing and Foul Play. Even if Noctowl does have better bulk after a Knock Off, this niche is way too small to be ranked in D in my opinion.

 

[Marxman]

Ninetales B+ -> A-/A
Ninetales is quick, gets excellent coverage with Flamethrower/Energy Ball/Extrasensory, get free Flash Fire boosts all day long from Gourgeist and Camerupt Will-O's, and tops it off with Nasty Plot to help out it's mediocre power. It's a fearsome late-game cleaner and setup sweeper with some pivot utility as a bonus.

Electrode B- -> B/B+
The specs Soundproof set packs quite a punch, and is the ultimate middle-finger to all the Chatot spammer idiots on the ladder. It's a fantastic Volt Turner and revenge killer. It's lack of coverage is really the only thing I can find wrong with it, relying on Signal Beam and HP Ice or Fire, which is not great to say the least. Still, it's speed and power with specs make up for it.

 

[Teddeh]

Sneasel S -> A/A+
My thought process is that sneasel isn't massively broken. It has a nice base speed yes, but there are a healthy amount of pokemon that can take it on excellently with the common fighting types (throh, machoke) on every team or people who want to hard counter it with poliwrath. Not to mention things like carracosta, garbodor, avalugg which are very common in PU.
With this I assume you're laughing, but it needs life orb to hit with any decent amount of power, it has a stealth rock weakness and is limited to use. Even then, it has an inability to get the kill when it is on the field of play. Life orb Sneasel barely 2 hit kos tangela without eviolite, hence tangela beating it 1 on 1 along with a lot of pokemon in the tier. I admit that sneasel is very good, can outspeed almost every threat in the tier but it's not S rank, there are too many checks and counters. It also only runs 1 set that's threatening, whereas mushy and turtle can run several and still have massive success.
So as I said, not quite S rank worthy imo, but deffo A+/A.

 

[Marxman]

If we're putting Musharna and Carracosta (which is baffling to me, but whatever) in S, then Sneasel is easily S. Both the Eviolite/SD set and the Life Orb/4 Attacks set are extremely difficult to deal with. It has good power, STAB priority, STAB Knock Off, and okay-ish coverage with Low Kick (which unfortunately sucks vs the best Ice type, Frostom). I've used Sneasel as much as any poke in PU and I definitely think it fits S. At worst it cripples something with Knock Off and revenge kills something with Ice Shard before dying. At worst. At best... it sweeps you with SD or cleans up with LO Knock Off spam.

 

[Peef Rimgar]

Sneasel S -> A/A+
My thought process is that sneasel isn't massively broken. It has a nice base speed yes, but there are a healthy amount of pokemon that can take it on excellently with the common fighting types (throh, machoke) on every team or people who want to hard counter it with poliwrath. Not to mention things like carracosta, garbodor, avalugg which are very common in PU.
With this I assume you're laughing, but it needs life orb to hit with any decent amount of power, it has a stealth rock weakness and is limited to use. Even then, it has an inability to get the kill when it is on the field of play. Life orb Sneasel barely 2 hit kos tangela without eviolite, hence tangela beating it 1 on 1 along with a lot of pokemon in the tier. I admit that sneasel is very good, can outspeed almost every threat in the tier but it's not S rank, there are too many checks and counters. It also only runs 1 set that's threatening, whereas mushy and turtle can run several and still have massive success.
So as I said, not quite S rank worthy imo, but deffo A+/A.

Strangely enough, after extensive play, I agree. In the earliest stages of the tier we assumed that Sneasel was going to be suspected immediately. Now in review a lot of hard counters have arisen to take it down such as Avalugg, Throh, Poliwrath, Machoke, Defensive Carracossta, etc. The metagame before was much more favourable to it to where it was S-Rank but in the current metagame it simply isn't S-Rank material.

If we're putting Musharna and Carracosta (which is baffling to me, but whatever) in S, then Sneasel is easily S. Both the Eviolite/SD set and the Life Orb/4 Attacks set are extremely difficult to deal with. It has good power, STAB priority, STAB Knock Off, and okay-ish coverage with Low Kick (which unfortunately sucks vs the best Ice type, Frostom). I've used Sneasel as much as any poke in PU and I definitely think it fits S. At worst it cripples something with Knock Off and revenge kills something with Ice Shard before dying. At worst. At best... it sweeps you with SD or cleans up with LO Knock Off spam.

ARE YOU SERIOUSLY IMPLYING COSTA AND MUSHY AREN'T S WORTHY??? Carracosta is pretty much the premier set up sweeper in the tier and can even go as far as to run a defensive set with its monsterous defense stat and the fantastic ability Solid Rock. AND MUSHARNA THOUGH. This fucker doesn't die. Sneasel's Knock Off 2HKOes this monster. It sets up on all the tier with CM, annoys everything with the pivot set, and just doesn't go down easy

 

[Marxman]

I was implying Carracosta doesn't deserve S, but I haven't used it myself and only faced it a few times. Musharna definitely belongs in S.

I'm not at all scared of Turtles defensive/utility/tank sets, and the Shell Smash set, while scary, is relatively easy to deal with.

 

[WhiteDMist]

Time to stop suggesting changes until the ones already suggested have been discussed. We'll focus on the suggestions that affect the higher ranks first to make this discussion more focused.

Bastiodon from B+ --> B
Zebstrika from B+ --> B
Simipour from C+ --> B
Basculin from B to B+/A-
Mightyena from B to B+
Raticate from C+ to B-
Mantine from B+ to B
Swoobat from B to B+
Altaria from B to B+/A-
Throh from B+ to A
Gigalith from C+ to B
Quilladin from C to B-
Scraggy from C- to B-
Gourgeist-Small from B+ to A-
Bouffalant from A- to A
Butterfree from B- to B
Gogoat from B+ to A-
Scyther from A to A+
Avalugg from B- to A-
Nintales from B+ to A-
Electrode from B- to B
Sneasel from S to A+

Please discuss the ones listed here first so that these can be decided. The Council will take every well reasoned/well thought out posts into account when deciding on a change.

 

[Magnemite]

Strangely enough, after extensive play, I agree. In the earliest stages of the tier we assumed that Sneasel was going to be suspected immediately. Now in review a lot of hard counters have arisen to take it down such as Avalugg, Throh, Poliwrath, Machoke, Defensive Carracossta, etc. The metagame before was much more favourable to it to where it was S-Rank but in the current metagame it simply isn't S-Rank material.

Yeah, gonna have to disagree here. Your "hard counters" don't even beat it that well. Machoke can only switch in once as after it switches into Knock Off, Ice Punch easily 2HKOes 252/0 Machoke. Avalugg is a decent answer, but it needs to be physically defensive or Low Kick 2HKOes after SR. Poliwrath is and always will be a 100% counter to Sneasel, but that hasn't kept it from being S before. Defensive Carracosta is a pretty solid (heh) counter, but it isn't common at all and doesn't even have reliable recovery. Finally, while Throh is a good check, it isn't even as good of a counter as people make it seem, as with SR up it can be 3HKOed by Knock Off and two Ice Punches depending on rolls so it struggles to switch in more than once unless you're a god and either run physically defensive or use Rest at like 75%. Sneasel isn't as broken as I once thought it was, but moving it out of S-rank is quite frankly ridiculous.

 

[Patrick1088]

I agree with WhiteDMist on Avalugg to B+. I started playing the tier (pretty fun btw!) and Avalugg stands out as a phenomenal Wall/Spinner. It's Sp Def is bad, but it can take the hardest hits on the physical side when fully invested...

+6 252+ Atk Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 352-415 (89.5 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Bouffalant Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 392-462 (99.7 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

That's a SE coverage move coming from a 120BP attack and 100BP Coverage move with 3 SD and it still has a chance to survive...

Avalance/Earthquake give it great coverage and Recover is even better. A good argument is that it's phenomenal bulk coupled with sturdy allows it to check most of the higher threats.

8 Atk Avalugg Earthquake vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Barbaracle: 222-262 (77.6 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

After Shell Smash Def drop, of course

+2 252+ Atk Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 288-338 (73.2 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It's weakness to rocks, hazards and Sp Attacks really holds it back from being an A ranked poke IMO.

Also, why is Dodrio so high? :-)

 

[DopestDope]

Simipour from C+ --> B

I can get behind this. Simipour has 3 things going for it: speed, coverage, and Nasty Plot. Sitting at 101 base speed, Simipour is able to outspeed a majority of the tier. It also has very good coverage in Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Grass Knot, Focus Blast, etc. Add Nasty Plot to this equation and Simipour is able to KO a lot of threats in the tier.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 416-491 (98.1 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Hydro Pump vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Musharna: 266-316 (61 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 406-478 (105.7 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Vert]

| A
Using Gen 5 Sprite because it looks cooler. Chatot is one of the best 'mon in the PU metagame at the moment. It hits like a truck and 2HKOes - OHKOes practically the whole metagame after Stealth Rock with Life Orb Boomburst. Huntail can't SmashPass on it, no Substitute user can beat it and the only things that resist Boomburst are Barbaracle, Carracosta, and Golem which are OHKOed by Hidden Power [Grass], immune: Gourgeist and Haunter which it can u-turn out of. It has close to no counters - only checks. It sits at a really nice speed tier to destroy most of the metagame. Sadly, Tauros and Sneasel are everywhere which is a big problem, but it it destroys so many things allowing dangerous sweepers like Scyther to sweep makes it one of the beswt Pokemon in PU. Heat Wave was useless in this tier anyways. Those two big checks and bad bulk is why its not S Rank but it is so dangerous atm.

| A
Dodrio is another example of dangerous wallbreaker. It hits like truck with 110 Base Attack Brave Bird + Double Edge and can Knock Off the items of common switch ins like Golem, Carracosta, and Rotom-F. It also Pursuit traps Haunter and Gourgeist which lots of teams have trouble with. It has a really good speed to work with too and its STABs are so powerful in the current PU metagame. Seriously, this bird is on par with Chatot.

Also Altaria needs to move to A- ASAP. It is really good.

 

[ajgrocks101]

]Altaria to b+/A-:

I agree. With a good typing for walling special mons (bar Ice, lol) and a solid movepool for walling and attacking, even has DD to boost.

 

[Teddeh]

Yeah, gonna have to disagree here. Your "hard counters" don't even beat it that well. Machoke can only switch in once as after it switches into Knock Off, Ice Punch easily 2HKOes 252/0 Machoke. Avalugg is a decent answer, but it needs to be physically defensive or Low Kick 2HKOes after SR. Poliwrath is and always will be a 100% counter to Sneasel, but that hasn't kept it from being S before. Defensive Carracosta is a pretty solid (heh) counter, but it isn't common at all and doesn't even have reliable recovery. Finally, while Throh is a good check, it isn't even as good of a counter as people make it seem, as with SR up it can be 3HKOed by Knock Off and two Ice Punches depending on rolls so it struggles to switch in more than once unless you're a god and either run physically defensive or use Rest at like 75%. Sneasel isn't as broken as I once thought it was, but moving it out of S-rank is quite frankly ridiculous.

As much as I love your analysis, it isn't quite S rank material in my honest opinion and after playing on the ladder and reaching number 1 several times I wouldn't have suggested it if I didn't disagree with it. As much as it doesn't have more than one - two solid "counters", there are far and few between checks that are on basically every team with other purposes and can easily beat it one on one.
It lacks the ability to kill things, it can barely 2 hit ko a tangela after eviolite being knocked off with stab ice punch... Yet you can stall it out with life orb, if it doesn't have life orb then you can easily beat it one on one with hp fire. The only relevant set in general and the most common is the Life orb set, which means it's always on a timer. It has a limited amount of hits before it kicks the bucket and this is where it lacks. It's weak to rocks, constantly taking damage from life orb, it can be worn down before even a threat by the most simple of teams. I didn't even have a sneasel "counter" when i hit number 1 and held it because it's not overly threatening in general. Machoke does a very good job at limiting it because of bullet punch priority that's super effective, other checks that were mentioned such as throh and garbodor are very good answers as well since garbodor runs drain punch and can stack hazards that can limit their team. As the eviolite SD is alright, it needs to have an SD to actually be powerful, without it lacks so much power with it's base 95 attack and weak moves since it's only base 75 ice punch, base 95 knock off but 65 if item is already off.
As much as think that sneasel is extremely good at this meta of PU, it's not quite got the diversity that it needs to push on and be an S rank pokemon since turtle and mushy both have a large amount of sets and diversity. I think it is very good, not S rank worthy though, A+ is more deserved in my honest opinion.
Feel free to disagree but I'm just giving my opinion based on my personal experience playing with and against this pokemon, it's not that amazing a threat.

 

[MQJinx]

You forgot to add Emolga and Victreebel.