Project The NU Theorymon Project [New Slate: Check Post #94]

[bb skarm]

Approved by Raseri and Zebraiken . You guys are awesome. Original project by Zebraiken.

Welcome to the NU Theorymon project!

Here, we will be discussing potential buffs (a new ability, a new move, or a new typing) on a Pokemon, and how it will positively impact its niche in the NU metagame.

So here is how the system is going to work. We're going to have a slate of 4-5 Pokemon that have been submitted from different users and handpicked (except for the first slate, which are my picks to get the project started). We then will discuss these "theorymons" for about 2-3 days, and then we'll commence voting, which last 4-5 days, and the winning Pokemon will be put in our archive.

You may submit theorymons any time you want, but please try to keep it at a maximum of 1-2 of them. When submitting a theorymon, please don't make it mindless like Boomburst Mesprit. Make it actually be logical, and give it an actual use.

When discussing the slates, here is what you want to be looking at:

• How will this buff positively impact the Pokemon?
• How will this buff impact the entire NU Metagame?
• Is this buff outclassed by other Pokemon?
• Can this Pokemon now take on different roles?

PLEASE follow these rules:

• Don't suggest changes about Pokemon that are already pretty viable in NU. Of course the term 'pretty viable' is open to interpretation, so to be more specific, everything in B- rank and below in the viability ranking thread is fair game.
• Don’t suggest changes that make or may make a Pokemon broken
• Only theorymon ideas that bring positives to the NU metagame and have useful implications will be picked, which means no Huge Power on random Pokemon and other similar buffs.
• You can only add a secondary typing to Pokemon of one type, or change the second type of a dual-typed Pokemon.
  
• Those changes should at the very least not contradict flavor. They don’t have to fit a Pokemon’s flavor perfectly, but don’t suggest a secondary Fire-type for Grass-types for example.

And this is where I'll out our archive, AKA winning theorymons:

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don't tell me you actually clicked this expecting to see something in it

 

[bb skarm]

Without further ado, here is our first slate:

+ Ice / Dragon Typing

+ Only Steel Typing

+ Sap Sipper

+ Knock Off

Discuss, and please follow the rules in the OP

 

[Raseri]

Still no posts here? I guess I'll start it off.

Knock Off Malamar is probably my favourite on the list, just because I wish Malamar was good.

Knock Off wouldn't increase its sweeping capibilities by to much, but what it would do is give Malamar some much needed utility for the early-mid game. Right now, unless Malamar can 6-0 from turn one, its almost useless til late game. What Knock Off would do is allow Malamar to actually do something to its counters (remove their items, often Eviolite or Leftovers), so that they can be worn down a lot easier.

So basically, giving Knock Off to Malamar makes it like every other Pokemon with Knock Off, which is a huge step up from Malamar right now.

Ice /. Dragon Aurorus looks fun too :)

 

[Shuckleking87]

Yeah the only theory I would consider to be a somewhat bigger benefit is Knock off malamar. Basically what Raseri said, it would not be easier for malamar to sweep, but it would give it much better reason to use it. Also, if malamar is the special defensive spread, it can ohko scarf rotom and mismagius with knock off without a bulk up boost, while it could not do so with night slash. So that is certainly helpful. It would also be an even bigger anti-stall poke, being able to knock off some leftovers, assault vests and eviolite to free up an easier sweep for another poke, as well as having a better alternative stab for the sleep talk set.

Ice/dragon aururos would be the second best upgrade I guess. It would be unfortunate that it could not take on swellow and normal types, and it does not have any dragon moves to abuse besides dragon tail lol. It would be better capable to handle water and especially grass types, which is cool. Sceptile carries focus blast so that may not be the most reliable, but I could see it as a somewhat decent special check, but nothing more really.

I cannot really visualize how simipour would get sap sipper anyways. It would be a good ability, but does not seem realistic unless im missing something from the anime. There are also a ton of water types out there anyways that make stiff competition for simipour

Metang would not take as much damage from knock off I guess, but no psychic typing makes it really weak to fighting types. Zen headbutt is a pretty good stab move for its hone claws set. But metang honestly isn't that good anyways, rather use steelix like 98% of the time, so losing the stab wouldnt make too much of a difference for me

 

[Annoyer]

Simipour with sap sipper is weird tbh but pretty useful against the likes of ludicolo. could definitely see a physical set along the terms of waterfall, knock off, superpower, and maybe ice punch or some set up move like sub or hone claws idk.

Altaria + Defog would be really good (why doesnt it get it =[ ) and increase Altaria's viability by a lot on balance/stall teams. Altaria's typing is quite useful for handling Fire-types, some water-types like toad, eq gatr or sd rott with megahorn, fighting types like gurdurr and hariyama that tend not to use ice punch anymore, along with many grass types like vileplume, roselia, and lilligant (bar hp ice) as natural cure mitigates sleep powder's effects. now with defog, it would be a much better utility mon and has pretty good synergy with mons who would like defog support like magmortar/typhlosion. altaria would give nu another viable option as a defensive dragon type instead of dragalge. it could even be a very useful filler on a gimmick set like specs. fire blast could also be utilized to be a great switch in to ferroseed and also lure it out for other mons like kabutops and gatr to sweep. if only...

 

[scorpdestroyer]

ill comment on Simipour I guess. I actually think its the best one of the current slate

I think Sap Sipper Simipour sounds pretty decent, but I don't think I'll go with fully physical sets even then because special sets can still take advantage of the immunity very well, plus getting a good setup move and good coverage. Simipour with Sap Sipper can now act as a very good offensive Water-type because it's one of the fastest (only being outsped by Floatzel I think?) and cannot be revenge killed by Grass-types as easily. This means that Simipour can get around Sceptile now, as well as Vileplume, and Scarf Lilligant I guess (if anyone still uses that)

I'm quite interested in NP Sap Sipper Simipour, not only for the above giving it more chances to sweep, but also the fact that Simipour can now set up on shit like Ferroseed(!). In addition Simipour can also sort of revenge kill Grass-types without needing to hold a Scarf given that not many of them carry additional super effective coverage and many of them rely on Hidden Power. Lilligant and Sceptile are good examples of this.

Other interesting things Simipour can beat are Pokemon with Grass coverage. For instance Ludicolo and special Samurott will find it harder to get around Simipour. Meanwhile Simipour can wear them down with Ice Beam or HP Grass or even just smack them with some shit like Acrobatics (or Natural Gift :o)

--

I think Metang is still kinda bad. Even though it's not weak to Pursuit and Knock Off anymore, losing the Psychic typing means it can no longer take hits from Jynx, Drain Punch Kangaskhan, Regice and Pokemon like these which carry Fighting coverage to beat Ferroseed. I don't really know if that means it got better or worse, it's sort of like trading a bad flaw for another bad flaw ;-;

I guess it can hold a niche as the only defensive pure Steel-type in NU but Ferroseed still sounds better thanks to its Grass typing which helps it check a lot of other stuff.

--

What does Dragon Aurorus do? I'm guessing the added resistances help it to set up Rock Polish on the likes of Samurott more easily, but its probably not too big of a buff especially when the loss of Rock typing makes it easier to kill with Kangaskhan and stuff.

--

Also Roost Mantine for the next slate y/n

 

[Skankovich]

If aurorus had some kind of decent dragon STAB it would be nice, but as much as the typing it has is awful, it really likes having a rock STAB. It might help a subcm set I guess, since outside of the typing its bulk is great, but I'm not sure it's that much of an upgrade overall.

 

[ryan]

The problem with Steel-type Metang is that it still doesn't like Knock Off because it needs Eviolite really badly in order to be useful throughout the match. Many other popular Eviolite users don't like their Eviolite taken away but have some form of recovery (Drain Punch Gurdurr, Synthesis/Rest Roselia, Leech Seed Ferroseed, Roost Vullaby and Togetic, etc.), which helps keep them from being useless throughout the match. But Metang loses its added bulk and has no recovery to compensate for it. Would it be more viable? Possibly, though I don't think I'd like to lose the 4x Psychic resist when its biggest niche is checking Mesprit. But it's certainly not making any waves either.

I'm actually one of the apparently few who believes that Sap Sipper Simipour isn't a very big buff, and I'd probably rather use Torrent most of the time. Yes, it helps it take on Grass-types, which is great, but most of them still carry coverage to hurt it. Offensive Water-types that carry Grass-type coverage don't really care much either:

252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Simipour: 164-192 (56.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Simipour: 144-170 (49.4 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Now I realize that in a practical battling scenario, the opponent won't always be clicking Hydro Pump (or even hitting when they do) when the opponent has a Simipour on his team. But it's still really dangerous switching into these Pokemon even with Sap Sipper. Of course, if you do predict correctly and come in on a Grass-type attack, you can get a huge momentum swing in your favor and force these Pokemon out. But even so, I feel that Torrent is still the more consistent option.

Like others have mentioned, none of these are particularly exciting or metagame altering. They're pretty much all slight perks that slightly bump up these Pokemon in viability. Still, props for not slating anything super broken.

 

[Ares]

First time seeing/replying to this type of thread.

I think the best one is obviously Malamar getting knock off for reason that Raseri stated above. Gives it utility through out the match and a stronger STAB for sweeping.

Ice/Dragon typing might be interesting for Aurorus, but I think something that would really benefit Aurorus is access to a better Normal-type Special move. Obviously Boomburst is the best one out there, but it wouldnt even have to be as powerful as that. Something like a special Return or Hyper Voice, I feel would work wonders for Aurorus and let it take better advantage of its ability.

I dont think Sap Sipper as an ability would be to great for Simipour, if Sap Sipper raised Special Attack I could see it working better, but like Hollywood said Simipour is way to frail to really abuse the ability.

I think becoming mono Steel-type really would end up hurting Metang in the long run. It gets a lot of useful resistances to top tier threats with the typing and Knock Off already hurts it so being weak to it isnt that big of a deal imo. It also becomes weak to Fighting spam. Where as before it could check and even injure fighting types with a Zen Headbutt.

Hopefully people give lots of suggestions.

 

[ryan]

Ice/Dragon typing might be interesting for Aurorus, but I think something that would really benefit Aurorus is access to a better Normal-type Special move. Obviously Boomburst is the best one out there, but it wouldnt even have to be as powerful as that. Something like a special Return or Hyper Voice, I feel would work wonders for Aurorus and let it take better advantage of its ability.

Aurorus has access to Nature Power -> Tri Attack, which I would rather use over Hyper Voice even if it got it.

 

[Ares]

Aurorus has access to Nature Power -> Tri Attack, which I would rather use over Hyper Voice even if it got it.

Completely missed that when going through Aurorus in the teambuilder. Yeah Nature Power is quite nice.

 

[Aleccat]

Giving bellossom rapid spin would be nice because she always twirls in the movies and would make her on stall a viable pick.

 

[boltsandbombers]

I think mantine with roost would be pretty sweet. I mean, a flying type that can't learn roost?
In all seriousness, mantine are often forced to use rest and or sleep talk if they want any form of recovery or rely on wish passing.
Sure, mantine isn't nearly as good this gen because freeze dry is a thing, but having roost would make it much better.
Thoughts?

 

[Skankovich]

I think Ice/Ground would be a better type change for Aurorus, its a godly STAB combo which is only resisted by Surskit, outside of abilities, and is simultaneously a much better (but still not great) defensive typing. It also already has earthquake, so it can take advantage of it offensively, unlike dragon.

Still pretty flavourful too, since rock and ground are sort of interchangeable.

 

[Brawlfest]

Uxie with Recover. Uxie's biggest flaw as a wall is its lack of recovery, and with the introduction of recover Uxie is able to heal itself over and over to wall top tier threats, making its viability shoot up tremendously. It seems that Uxie should get recovery amongst its plethora of support moves from screens to rocks to memento, but it just doesn't have the capable tools. Recover makes Uxie a top tier mon who not only competes with but outshines the likes of Musharna, and allows it to more effectively pull off both its wall and cm sets.

 

[Valmanway]

Ice / Steel type Avalugg. He loses his Stealth Rock weakness, gains a Toxic immunity, and while he does gain two 4x weaknesses to Fighting- and Fire-type moves, he also gains plenty of resistances.

 

[Evan.]

Grass/Ground or Grass/Fighting Gogoat would be great as Gogoat's main drawback is it's awful mono-grass typing. If Gogoat got either of these types it would allow it to gain some useful resistances (with a 4x weakness tho), as well as be able to more effectively run a mono-attacking Sub+Bulk Up+Milk Drink Stallbreaker set, which would be amazing.

Also 69th post...

Fuck Yeah.

 

[CanadianWifier]

Can we just give Glaceon Freeze-Dry? :(

It makes sense flavour-wise, it would actually give Glaceon a move worth running as coverage, it would make it considerably harder to switch into (NU is pretty limited with Steel-types, and Glaceon commonly carries HP Ground anyway). Honestly Freeze-dry should be a consolation move given to every Ice-type for having to be stuck with Ice-typing, but Nintendo has no soul ;-;

 

[MicfiJasan]

Ice/Dragon Aurorus - Just saying, all fossils have been part Rock-type in some form, so this dual-typing is kind of a stretch. Also wish it got Snow Warning. But in seriousness, this this is the buff I'm most interested in. The switch from Rock to Dragon doesn't change too much with regards to net weaknesses/resistances. In terms of resistances, it would gain Water, Electric, and Grass while losing Ice, Normal, and Flying. For weaknesses, it would lose Grass, Water, and Ground while gaining Dragon and Fairy. It also cuts its weaknesses to Fighting and Steel from 4x to 2x, although it still probably dies to these (even with 252/252+, it's still never living a Banded Sawk CC). A quick look at the Viability Rankings suggests that this is quite an anti-meta typing though, gaining switch-in opportunities on Feraligatr, Samurott, Seismitoad, and Vileplume. Not to mention it already threatens all of these with Freeze-Dry. I do wonder if people would put his reasonable bulk to better use with this, since 123/72/92 is not bad unless crippled by a horrible typing. It's a change from horrendous to bad, but that's still a sizable buff.

Plain Steel Metang - This is nice on paper since Psychic is one of the worst defensive types, but the weaknesses you lose don't seem all that special to me. He still can't switch into Mismagius if it uses Nasty Plot, and he still won't want to be switching into Knock Offs that nearly every Dark-type likes to carry because of his reliance on Eviolite for bulk. He walls Rotom now I guess, and he doesn't fear Pursuit as much, but he's much more vulnerable to stray Focus Blasts from Sceptile, Jynx, and maybe Accelgor (I guess these guys might run Focus Blast more often for Metang in this happened). I'm not sure being able to take Pursuit is worth the weakness to omnipresent Fighting-type coverage.

Sap Sipper Simipour - I've never really considered this since I always saw her as only a special attacker, and I attribute Sap Sipper to the attack boost. On NP sets, it gives her more switch in opportunities on things like Ferroseed and Vileplume...and that's really all there is to it. The attack boost now might open up some of her physical options like Knock Off, Superpower, and potentially Acrobatics. However, these sets will likely still see competition from Pokemon like Samurott and Feraligatr, who can boost faster with Swords Dance and have Aqua Jet for priority. I don't think it's all that groundbreaking, but I can still see it being useful. I can see an interesting core with Seismitoad, with each being immune to the other's only weakness.

Knock Off Malamar - Not having the best STAB for your type is always a let down. Malamar definitely appreciates the nearly 40% power boost it would get over Night Slash (at least for the first hit, it'll be less than 10% weaker for subsequent hits). This might make him slightly less reliant on Superpower, being able to treat it more like a Bulk Up than a "click this and sweep" move. Not to mention as above posters have stated it gives him much more utility when he can't sweep. He still lacks priority to make up for his middling speed though, limiting the effectiveness of a sweeper set. And even in NU, base 92 Attack doesn't really scream Wallbreaker to me. But Knock Off is still such an all-around solid move, and with ORAS around the corner, and Knock Off being a staple Tutor move since Platinum, we might be able to see how effective this guy actually is.

Oh, and a quick aside to some other suggestions I saw: giving a wall recovery is the most boring, yet most consistently beneficial options. You now have the potential to hard wall anything that can't 2HKO you after hazards, which is usually a sizeable chunk of threats. This is a huge buff and will likely be the best in any slate that includes it, but I just feel it's such an easy fix. I might go into more detail on individual cases of these if enough pop up.

 

[bb skarm]

Alright, so I've been reading through this thread, and I've been seeing a mix between suggestions and discussion. Both are pretty good. However, sine the first slate was only practice to see what people would do, I'll be announcing the next slate with 4 of the suggestions seen on the thread tomorrow. That being said, if you want to submit a theorymon, do it now.

also, Arhops made us a nice banner

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also, reasoning between the 4 theorymons i chose:

Hide

Aurorus

This thing has arguably the worst defensive typing in the game, so I decided to put a mix between a good defensive typing and some flavor to give a pretty notable buff to it. The thing does kinda look like a dragon. Also, to those saying Normal / Rock or Ice / Ground Aurorus: no

Steel Metang

It really doesn't appear to be Psychic, and it sorta gets rid of the Knock Off weakness, but creates more of them. Probably the worst.

Sap Sipper Simipour

I have NOOOO idea why I chose this, I thought of Sap Sipper Azumarill and I actually kinda liked it. So yeah.

Knock Off Malamar

The thing literally has flaps for arms. I really did choose it for the utility and better overall STAB

 

[bb skarm]

Alright, well, I johned this a bunch, so here's really our new slate. Reminder, we aren't voting for the first slate because it was the first one that I made up myself and wasn't very good as well as really just being a 'trial' slate I guess.

(+Freeze-Dry) TheCanadianWifier

(+Roost) scorpdestroyer

(+Recover) Brawlfest

I just chose three because there weren't many submissions, and I don't want to make it so 50% of the submissions made it.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

smh everything is a competition nowadays

Freeze-Dry Glaceon is quite a good buff. We can see from Cryogonal and Aurorus that Freeze-Dry + Ice Beam is already pretty decent coverage, and it's really a boon to be able to hit bulky Water-types. I imagine Glaceon running the same old Specs set because it's kinda slow for Scarf. The Specs set should do pretty well because bulky Water-types are now unable to switch in. This fixes Glaceon's coverage problem and I can see it getting use on Sticky Web teams because of how hard it hits and how difficult it is to wall. In addition it can break down bulky waters for Sticky Web teams so that your Flareon / Samurott / whatever has an easier time later.

I won't comment on Roost Mantine yet because I suggested it, I'll talk about it after a while.

Recover Uxie is a little interesting. It's definitely a huge buff, although it also has the problem of further compounding Uxie's 4MSS. The CM set probably enjoys this the most, because it now completely outclasses CM Musharna apart from Baton Pass. Calm Mind / Recover / Psychic / filler could be used a la CM Mush, and the last slot can be filled with Sub, Heal Bell, Thunderbolt, etc. Of course every other Uxie set would benefit from this as well. SR Uxie can run SR / U-turn or Thunder Wave / Psychic / Recover to continuously come in and wall stuff throughout the game. Unfortunately it can no longer run U-turn and status on the same set :(

Anyways I'm pretty interested in CM Recover Uxie. It looks like a decent win condition on stall now that it doesn't need Wish or Heal Bell support as much, or heck can even provide Heal Bell support of its own.

 

[Ares]

I think both roost and recover are fantastic options for good walls whose biggest problem is recovery outside of rest. Roost on Mantine means that it would become a much more reliable defogger. This would shoot up mantine's usage by a ton, fantastic suggestion. Recover on Uxie would make Uxie an S rank mon in my eyes. The biggest problem it has its inability to recover health. It's incredibly bulky and has amazing support moves. Like Scorp said it has a huge issue with 4MSS, but I think Recover would become a staple on all Uxies.

Freeze Dry on Glaceon would be a good thing for it. It provides good coverage for a pokemon who doesn't have the best coverage in the first place. (A similar example would be Leafeon, last gen all it really got for coverage was Leaf Blade and Return, this gen however Knock Off got a buff and now Leafeon is a force to be reckoned with.).

Overall I think I'm gonna have to give the best option to Recover on Uxie.

 

[Brambane]

Freeze-Dry Glaceon is a buff to Glaceon, but not an overpowering one. It would basically give Specs Glaceon a better coverage move and a more safe STAB to spam, which is basically what Glaceon does best. It doesn't really fix what I think are Glaceon's main issues (low Speed, mono-Ice-type being awful defensively, weakness to all hazards) but it does make it a little more appealing than it was before. Glaceon always feels like a sleeper threat to me; its not something I go out of my way to prepare for but it is still very threatening. I like this one the most because it is not a colossal improvement, yet it is still a noteworthy and exciting one.

Mantine getting Roost is an obvious upgrade. It certainly has the space to fit it in its moveset. Not really much to say about it. Recover Uxie would be good as well. Not every Uxie set will be able to fit it in there, but it is a strong addition to Uxie's already wide arsenal of moves.

Suggestions:
Dusknoir with Attack and Special Attack swapped
Pangoro + Mach Punch

 

[Ares]

Suggestions:
Give Cacturne base 80 speed (if that seems to high then 70)

Make Drain Punch on Kecleon compatible with Protean


Edit 3 Days later so no double post: I know you only asked for 2 at a time but I just came up with a really good one. Giving Tauros a Normal-type move that is a 100% accuarte and at least 90BP with a secondary effect that it can abuse with Sheer Force. One of the biggest turn-offs when it comes to Tauros for me is its unreliable STAB move, I feel like Tauros would become instantly more loved.