Notice that mega gardy dislikes repeated psychocks specially with hazards on. She is barely a check hoping to come on a Dmeteor.
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Pokémon Volcanion
- Thread starter Delibird is Amazing
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Gardevoir runs 24 Defense EVs specifically because LO Psyshock from Latios can 2HKO (though the chance is very small).
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 121-143 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO (99.6% after Stealth Rock)
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 117-138 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock)
There's also the fact that the only moves that Gardevoir hates that Volcanion can switch into are Steel attacks, many of which come from Bisharp and Scizor (who both use Knock Off). You'd need a 3rd Pokemon to make an effective core with Gardy, though that's not necessarily bad since lots of good 3-Mon cores exist.
My point rest switching in gardy is still costly. I can see volcanion working well in tandem with hipowdown or ferrothorn if you really, really hate axumarril. All in all i cant think of a good volcanion core that isnt destroyed horribly by landorus I. If rocks are up of course :3 probably sapsipper goodra but it is just somewhat unviable. An offensuve core wuth bisharb could wirk in bulky offense tough.
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Another good check/counter to Volc would be Ttar. It can switch in on any move except for Steam Eruption. From there, it can proceed to KO Volc with a Stone Miss Edge. For regular Ttar, it would need stealth rocks up to OHKO max HP Volc. For Mega Ttar, well, it's got a very good chance of OHKOing, rocks or no rocks.
T-Tar will NEVER want to face a Volcanion specifically because of that Burn chance and the fact that it gets outsped unless it's Scarfed.
And I thought Volcanion could also run EQ xD
Tyranitar's only way to threaten Volcanion is as scarfed revenge killer.
Tyranitar's only way to threaten Volcanion is as scarfed revenge killer.
If you have to say that something is a good check/counter to a pokemon unless it uses the one move it's essentially guaranteed to have, I'd rethink my definitions of those terms...
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 182-216 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO
That's as generous as it gets and Volcanion is faster and then there's rocks + burn chance.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 182-216 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO
That's as generous as it gets and Volcanion is faster and then there's rocks + burn chance.
Alright, point taken. I'm just brainstorming mons that could potentially check/counter Volc; from what's been posted, ttar doesn't look so hot anymore. Anyway, I'm out of ideas atm. The only thing I can think of right now is Goodra, which isn't too great in the metagame; although it can beat it 1v1.
252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 226-267 (65.6 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If anyone's got anything better, please, enlighten me.
Even if people run Goodra in OU (lol) I highly doubt the more common set would involve one with max Special Attack.
I thought the standard was Assault Vest with Modest, max HP / SAtk EVs. Can take a Specs Latios Draco Meteor:
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 296-350 (77.2 - 91.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
It'd be a bit redundant to have max SpDef and AV on a base 150 Spdef imo; having the remaining EVs going into SpDef would still allow you to take a hit, etc. That, and the calc has the 248 HP/252 SpAtk/8 SpDef spread as default.
Yeah, and there are some speed creeping Goodras out there. Outsped my 8 Spe MegaSaur and 3HKO'd with Dragon Pulse.
I think the best Volcanion counters will probably be Dragon and Water types, specifically ones that don't mind burns like Latias and Alomomola. I mean both of it's STAB moves are resisted by these types and they only fear Hidden Power really. Also with just about every stall team having a bulky Water type it will probably not be a good wallbreaker at all. Too bad because it's matchup against offense isn't that good either with it's average speed.
Dunno if bulky waters can counter it though, granted they can toxic it but sub sets don't have that issue and maybe steam eruption, fire blast, sub, toxic with lefties becomes a thing :/
Suicune can Pressure PP stall with Calm Mind and Rest, even if it can't hit back in return.
Slowbro, Slowking and probably Mega Slowbro are all tremendously bulky with various methods of recovery and can use Toxic or Thunderbolt. And Mega Slowbro's Shell Armor means that Volcanion can't fish for a crit.
Magic Guard CM Clefable with a bit of speed can begin boosting to the point where it can't be harmed and even a resisted Moonblast will get to the point of a 2HKO.
Mega Alakazam can Trace Water Absorb and threaten with Psychic. Mind games there of course, but the presence makes you more reluctant to use Steam Eruption in the first place because of this.
Likewise Gardevoir can Trace Water Absorb to get in for free.
Gothithelle can revenge trap it and OHKO with Specs Thunderbolt.
It's tough for sure though.
Slowbro, Slowking and probably Mega Slowbro are all tremendously bulky with various methods of recovery and can use Toxic or Thunderbolt. And Mega Slowbro's Shell Armor means that Volcanion can't fish for a crit.
Magic Guard CM Clefable with a bit of speed can begin boosting to the point where it can't be harmed and even a resisted Moonblast will get to the point of a 2HKO.
Mega Alakazam can Trace Water Absorb and threaten with Psychic. Mind games there of course, but the presence makes you more reluctant to use Steam Eruption in the first place because of this.
Likewise Gardevoir can Trace Water Absorb to get in for free.
Gothithelle can revenge trap it and OHKO with Specs Thunderbolt.
It's tough for sure though.
How are people calling this thing a wallbreaker when it's cock-blocked by Chansey / Suicune which at least one of are on every stall team? You didn't break stall you just gave Chansey a safe switch in. Congrats. It is important to note that Volcanion can always run Life Orb with something like 252 SA / 252 Speed (or HP) and Steam Eruption / Flare Blitz / Explosion / filler (Fire Blast or Sludge Bomb etc) so it can 2HKO Chansey with Flare Blitz + Explosion after rocks 100% of the time with just 4 attack evs. That said LO Volcanion sucks worse against practically everything else.
It is rather bulky so it might be able to get a few shots off against offense vs like, Azumarill / Scizor / etc. Seems like an okay mon at best.
It is rather bulky so it might be able to get a few shots off against offense vs like, Azumarill / Scizor / etc. Seems like an okay mon at best.
Volcanion is good because:
1. Will-o-Wisp cripples everything that's not Fire-type
2. Volcanion destroys Fire-types with Steam Eruption
3. Profit?
Basically the same reasons Rotom-W is good in OU. Without those factors Rotom-W would probably be RU at best. I see great potential for this mon.
1. Will-o-Wisp cripples everything that's not Fire-type
2. Volcanion destroys Fire-types with Steam Eruption
3. Profit?
Basically the same reasons Rotom-W is good in OU. Without those factors Rotom-W would probably be RU at best. I see great potential for this mon.
Name me one special attacking move that can "break" through chansey without setting up.
Secret Sword
Also while Volcanion would be kind of a good Will-O-Wisp spreader with Steam Eruption I doubt it will be as good as Rotom-Wash. Rotom-Wash has less weaknesses and most importantly at least has some way of healing itself with Pain Split. Volcanion has a few unfortunate weaknesses like Ground and Rock which greatly hamper it's defensive capabilities. Volcanion also has no way to recover health outside of Rest which is pretty annoying so it has to rely on Wish passing. Also the main Fire type in the tier is Charizard X which isn't weak to Steam Eruption.
Water Absorb is technically a form of recovery, although you're right that Rotom-W is much better defensively. Still you can't deny that being able to spread Will-o-Wisp while deterring Fire-types to come in is a really strong niche which it shares with Rotom-W. Also MegaZard X is actually 2HKO'd by uninvested Steam Eruption (OHKO'd if it comes in before Mega Evolving) so it's not the safest switchin in any scenario. Either way I see potential for a defensive Volcanion set with RestTalk; W-o-W and Steam Eruption are all you need and make for a good tank with 70/120/110 defenses.
Chansey and Suicune are still the only mons that can easily shrug off any of Volcanion's Specs attacks, one is easily removed with Bisharp support. Suicune is tough but nothing you can't deal with. As for other stallmons and supposed counters
Easy to switch into, you say?
Note that Hydro Pump is a placeholder for Steam Eruption
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 181-214 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery(obviously you lose to +1 Suicune)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 148+ SpD Mega Charizard X: 249-294 (69.3 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 120-142 (32.9 - 39%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 242-288 (66.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 252-297 (63.9 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 290-342 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Gyarados: 246-290 (62.5 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem-B: 306-361 (78.2 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 111-132 (36.8 - 43.8%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 65.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 193-228 (63.4 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (on another note, Slowbro can't actually learn Thunderbolt, and the only common Waters that carry moves SE on Volcanion are Rotom-W, Kabutops, Starmie and Gyarados)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 397-468 (100.7 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gastrodon: 242-285 (56.8 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hydro Pump vs. 104 HP / 156 SpD Alomomola: 201-237 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Focus Blast vs. 104 HP / 156 SpD Alomomola: 293-345 (58.9 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew: 207-244 (51.2 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
The only tru counter
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 141-166 (36.8 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Stopping here, I don't need to calc stuff like Ferrothorn or Gliscor and I think all this already proves my point)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 181-214 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery(obviously you lose to +1 Suicune)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 148+ SpD Mega Charizard X: 249-294 (69.3 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 120-142 (32.9 - 39%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 242-288 (66.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 252-297 (63.9 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 290-342 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Gyarados: 246-290 (62.5 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem-B: 306-361 (78.2 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 111-132 (36.8 - 43.8%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 65.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 193-228 (63.4 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (on another note, Slowbro can't actually learn Thunderbolt, and the only common Waters that carry moves SE on Volcanion are Rotom-W, Kabutops, Starmie and Gyarados)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 397-468 (100.7 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gastrodon: 242-285 (56.8 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hydro Pump vs. 104 HP / 156 SpD Alomomola: 201-237 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Focus Blast vs. 104 HP / 156 SpD Alomomola: 293-345 (58.9 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew: 207-244 (51.2 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
The only tru counter
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 141-166 (36.8 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Stopping here, I don't need to calc stuff like Ferrothorn or Gliscor and I think all this already proves my point)
Easy to switch into, you say?
You didn't run any calcs for Chansey. This is literally why stall runs Chansey. Also Suicune switches in on it easily, shrugging off its STABs and only really fearing two consecutive Focus Blast hits with SR. Focus Blast risks PP stall from Pressure.
Stop calling Volcanion a wall breaker. It does absolutely nothing to stall. If you can remove Chansey sure it can sweep, but on its own it is completely incapable of breaking through it. Something like Keldeo can burn Mega Venusaur and actually overpower it if it plays right. Thundurus can Taunt Chansey and HP Flying / Psychic M Venu. Landorus can basically 6-0 most stall with a CM set or Knock Off. Sub Mega Gyarados deals massive damage to pretty much every defensive Pokemon. Gothitelle gets multiple free kills against defensive Pokemon. These are all stall breakers. Volcarona is not. It is bulky, and hits hard, but is walled by common Pokemon on stall and requires a lot of team support to actually beat stall (or a Life Orb mixed set).
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Chansey cockblocks literally every Special Attacker in existence so nobody ever mentions her unless the thing they're talking about has a way around her or can cripple her. You're being stupidly anal about this.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 151-178 (23.5 - 27.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 309-367 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Yamborski, you yourself said that Landorus 6-0es stall. And besides, ytf would you ever run Volcanion alone? Any OU team that can't deal with Chansey is a bullshit team. There's no Pokemon without flaws, and as Karxrida pointed out, just because a special attacker can't break thorugh Chansey doesn't mean it's bad, because Chansey will never be broken with any special attack.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 309-367 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Yamborski, you yourself said that Landorus 6-0es stall. And besides, ytf would you ever run Volcanion alone? Any OU team that can't deal with Chansey is a bullshit team. There's no Pokemon without flaws, and as Karxrida pointed out, just because a special attacker can't break thorugh Chansey doesn't mean it's bad, because Chansey will never be broken with any special attack.
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