Kyogre can't easily switch in on Groudon's Earthquakes, so it has to predict a Fire/support move.
And still, I don't think anyone's saying Groudon > Kyogre in a 1vs1, but metagame-wise.
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ORAS General Discussion - Mark 2 - Spoilers Inside
- Thread starter Stellar
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And still, I don't think anyone's saying Groudon > Kyogre in a 1vs1, but metagame-wise.
It's less one-on-one fights, and more "how can I safely switch into X?"
With Primal Groudon, once he's out he's only got one weakness to Ground, which he predicts/counters easily with solarbeam (or ground/fire stabs, which is pretty good covarge).
With Primal Kyogre, there's Gastrodon that still hard counters and/or checks (crap, I get these confused all the time) him. Or Quagsire too I guess.
Another factor is switching when both are already primal formed. If Primal Groudon is out, then Primal Kyogre has to switch into a fire move to be effective (ground or grass will kill or wound it). If Primal Kyogre is out, then Primal Groundon can switch into Thunder, Ice Beam, or water moves and be fine thanks to activating harsh sunlight. See the difference?
Granted, this is all speculation. We'll see if that's true in practice.
*Edit: Guess I'm the slowpoke to the punch
Ice Beam coming from Primal Kyogre's gigantic SpA stat is still going to 2HKO Primal Groudon.
You don't actually know that. We don't have Primal Kyogre's Sp. Attack or Primal Groudon's Sp. Defense.
*Edit: I'm sure Primal Groudon still won't like eating even neutral non-STAB Ice beams from Kyogre regardless, but my point still stands that Primal Groudon has an easier time switching into Primal Kyogre than vice-verse. But let's not make damage assumptions without stats.
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I've seen some posts at least hinting that Groudon > Kyogre, but you guys have me convinced now!
2KO might be too much and it all comes down to the EV spread anyway, but I'd say it's a safe bet that a 252Atk/Spe Groudon will be at least 3KOed by offensive Kyogre's ice beam.
On the other hand, Ground's main stats are Atk and Def, and those are the stats that are likely to increase the most. Same for Kyogre's Sp.Atk/Sp.Def. So odds are, Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre will be even better at hurting each other with neutral attacks than regular Groudon/Kyogre. But Groudon has 100 BP with STAB and Kyogre 90 BP without STAB, so it's clear who's got the edge here. Once again :P
Edit: to think that a single day could turn things upside down...
252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Groudon: 131-155 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Retyping Groudon to Ground/Fire)
Since the boosts are offensive, we can assure Ice Beam 2HKOes most Primal Groudon
Can't say for sure until we know stats But it would be nice to know that Groudon can get punished for switching into Kyogre too.
On a related note. If Primal Kyogre really does have a hard time switching into Groudon then it might defeat the purpose of having heavy rain at all. And so a scarfed Kyogre might still be more useful than a Primal one if both have to rely on teammates for Primal Groudon anyway? maybe?
Allow me to disagree, at least partially. It'll take a load of Sp.Atk to turn a 38~45% into a guaranteed 2KO, even without leftovers. And while Groudon and Kyogre's main offense is likely to rise more than their counterparts weakest defense will, we can still expect a slight Sp.Def/Def boost on Groudon and Kyogre respectively, lessening to an extent the impact of their buffed Atk/Sp.Atk. So in this scenario, I don't see a guaranteed 2KO becoming an issue. On the other hand, a possible 2KO is threatening enough.
If Primal Groudon is holding leftoves then Primal Kyogre is holding Choice Specs. I think it a safe assumption to guess primal forms take up your item slot.
Also keep in mind that Primal Groudon loses its SR resistance, which might be just enough to push it into guaranteed 2HKO zone.
Even as a Groudon fan, I'm hapy about it too, since balance is much more desirable than dominance.
Primal Groudon will also have to rely on its team-mates for dealing with Primal Kyogre, since the opponent can always find a way to get Kyogre on the field (even sacrifing something if needed), and if heavy rain is falling, then Groudon better run.
Yes, that's why I mentioned even without leftovers.
True, we can't forget about that.
But I think stage7_4 is right. I think we've worked off much of the hype by now. Better move the conversation to a more in-game topic. Like how awesome mega Gallade looked in-game (and how it hurts to know that all that awesomeness is stuck with Inner Focus :( )
Before Stellar brings the banhammer for the damage calcs...
What do you think about MegaGallade? The official site says its Attack and Speed are increased; I doubt they are being literal and, considering their prior history with these pre-release stat reveals, this certainly means those two are the stats to get the biggest increases.
With this, I'm expecting a +30 boost to both stats, with the other 40 points being split between the other three stats. Maybe +20 to both defenses, maybe no boost to Def, or maybe +15 to two and +10 to the third one. Either way, I doubt Gallade will be stuck with the 100 Speed crowd, which is great.
What do you think about MegaGallade? The official site says its Attack and Speed are increased; I doubt they are being literal and, considering their prior history with these pre-release stat reveals, this certainly means those two are the stats to get the biggest increases.
With this, I'm expecting a +30 boost to both stats, with the other 40 points being split between the other three stats. Maybe +20 to both defenses, maybe no boost to Def, or maybe +15 to two and +10 to the third one. Either way, I doubt Gallade will be stuck with the 100 Speed crowd, which is great.
Heat Crash is where it's at.
On a completely unimportant note, will Origin Pulse be boosted by Mega Launcher?
IIRC Meteor Mash (Comet Punch in JP) isn't boosted by Iron Fist, so I doubt it.
Does Primal Groudon just seem so overpowered in theory? Maybe it's just me, but Ground/Fire with water, burn, Thunder Wave immunity, and an almost assured large boost in attack to hit a tier that is predominantly less physically defensive than specially defensive? I think the goal was balance amongst the two weather behemoths, but how did Primal Kyogre benefit at all? It probably received a boost in special attack, but other than that, how does blocking Fire moves help it at all? Normal Kyogre's Drizzle already cut Fire moves in half to go along with the Fire resistance that Water already provides. Now Primal Kyogre's new ability blocks Fire attacks that wouldn't have done much anyways.
The Xerneas and Yveltal 3Ds came with the game preloaded right?
They had BETTER release these in the US! Take my money
They had BETTER release these in the US! Take my money
Max Carvalho
Que os jogos comecem
Burns from Sacred Fire or WoW could be way annoying. Besides that, not much indeed.
It gets boosted
Also did anyone else notice in the trailer that when Primal Kyogre's post transformation text completed, it wasn't raining until it activated Primordial Sea? If Primal Reversion worked like mega evolution Drizzle would've activated beforehand, and the field would be rainy during that text. There is a possibility that the rain just fizzled out before Kyogre activated its primal transformation, but that might be stretching it.
The Main Websites have updated so it's time for me to look through all the news a bit more thoroughly!
POKEMON: (Legendary Pokemon)
Primal Groudon & Kyogrea's Ability & Signature Move:
Mega Groudon:
Ability: Desolate Land (Activates "Extremely Harsh Sunlight")
Move: Precipice Blades (Scores of sharp rocks surge upward to spear its foes. Strikes all opponents.)
Mega Kyogre:
Ability: Primordial Sea (Activates "Extremely Heavy Rain")
Move: Origin Pulse (Slams foes with water massed into ballistic orbs. Strikes all opponents.)
"Extreme" Weather Notes:
1. Has effects of normal Harsh Sunlight (DL)/Heavy Rain (PS).
2. Lasts on the field until user is switched out/faints.
3. Makes user immune to Water-type (DL)/Fire-type (PS) attacks.
4. Cannot be changed by the non-"Extreme" weather changing Abilities or Moves.
My Opinion: These Abilities did not disappoint! Well, maybe in some places, but overall they're pretty much what Groudon and Kyogre are all about.
First the immunity, GREAT for M-Groudon, not so much for M-Kyogre. Kyogre not only already resists Fire-type attacks, but thematically it doesn't make sense either as Groudon (though now part Fire-type) is the "Land" Pokemon so honestly it should make M-Kyogre immune to Ground-type moves. Now they probably did it in name of balance, normal Harsh Sunlight & Heavy Rain halves the damage of Water-type and Fire-type moves so this is only a natural upgrade (and maybe even reason why Groundon became part Fire-type?), but it sort of breaks the theme as now M-Groudon is immune to the sea yet M-Kyogre isn't to the land. But as someone noted, M-Groudon is still weak to Ground-types (oh the irony) and Kyogre learns Earthquake (though with that said Groudon can learn Solar Beam (which is can now do FOREVER if it wants), Thunderbolt, and Thunder). Also this means Kyogre can't use its new signature move on M-Groudon unless its removed or they make their signature moves ignore the effects of Abilities.
Speaking of which, them not being effected by the other weather changing Abilities and Moves is a nice boost to. However they made sure to mention that some Pokemon can still remove it which means that it sounds like the Ability Air Lock and Cloud Nine will still clear them (so yes, Psyduck has the power to remove god-like Pokemon powers, who knew). Honestly they probably should have also threw in Cloud Nine in there so that only Air Lock worked, once again works a bit more thematically. Also I'm also going to assume the other (TOTALLY) "Extreme (DUDE!)" Weather will change the weather, though considering how in Emerald we saw the two weather effects happening at the same time when Kyogre and Groudon fighting you'd think they would have made it so that when both of them are out that maybe it'll "combine" the effects of both Abilities. Like it would do the following:
1. Water & Fire-type Moves do double damage except to M-Kyogre and M-Groudon who are immune.
2. Solar Beam doesn't need to charge.
3. Thunder & Hurricane has 100% Accuracy.
4. Moonlight, Synthesis, & Morning Sun 2/3 heals.
5. Castform becomes gets a "Extreme Weather" form, becomes Fire/Water, & Weather Ball becomes a Fire/Water dual-type attack.
6. Everything other Move and Ability that activate in Harsh Sunlight & Heavy Rain activates.
7. LET ANARCHY REIGN!
And that's all on the Abilities, except I have to say they do have cool sounding names. Speaking of which, let's also talk about their equally cool sounding new signature attacks. Them hitting all opponents is a nice effect, pretty much a Surf and Earthquake that doesn't hit your allies. Didn't think of that and I guess it wouldn't be so bad if their power was 100 (sure its the same power as Earthquake but Earthquake strikes your grounded allies). With that said, to be fair to Surf, I think its Power should be boosted to 100 too to make it equal footing to Earthquake.
Rayquaza:
Rayquaza was added to the site... and that's all I have to say. Yeah, they don't really talk much about Rayquaza but they do say it's on the same level as Kyogre and Groudon (yet no mention of its connection with Mega Evolution) and it comes down to stop them when they fight, so with them saying that it would be odd for it not to get a Primal Evolution. Though now with M-Kyogre and M-Groudon having being given a new Signature Ability and Move, what would this mean for Rayquaza?
Oddly enough Rayquaza has been able to keep its Ability to itself (thanks to Cloud Nine's existence), so with that said I actually suggest boosting Air Lock. Maybe instead of removing weather, Air Lock sort of "modifies" the weather by removing all the negative effects on its side of the field while removing all the positive effects on the opponent's side of the field. Show Groudon and Kyogre who's REALLY boss around here! "Oh, you want you're TOTALLY EXTREME WEATHER? Fine, have it, IT WON'T BE GOOD FOR YOU THOUGH! HA!".
As for a signature move. Hmm, well obviously it would be a Flying-type move, but should it be a copy of Origin Pulse and Precipice Blades? To me Rayquaza is the type of Pokemon who likes to deal with you one-on-one, and by that I mean it would rather do a WHOLE lot of damage to one Pokemon instead of trying to spread out to multiple. Hmm, maybe make a strong Flying-type version of Flame Burst that does a lot of damage to the targeted Pokemon and a smaller (but still a considerable amount) of damage to all the others. They can call it, hmm, oh, how about "Eye of the Storm"? "Umm, isn't the eye of the storm the safest place to be?" Baby, when Rayquaza is out on the field, NO ONE is safe.
I EAT JESUS FOR BREAKFAST!
POKEMON: (Legendary Pokemon)
Primal Groudon & Kyogrea's Ability & Signature Move:
Mega Groudon:
Ability: Desolate Land (Activates "Extremely Harsh Sunlight")
Move: Precipice Blades (Scores of sharp rocks surge upward to spear its foes. Strikes all opponents.)
Mega Kyogre:
Ability: Primordial Sea (Activates "Extremely Heavy Rain")
Move: Origin Pulse (Slams foes with water massed into ballistic orbs. Strikes all opponents.)
"Extreme" Weather Notes:
1. Has effects of normal Harsh Sunlight (DL)/Heavy Rain (PS).
2. Lasts on the field until user is switched out/faints.
3. Makes user immune to Water-type (DL)/Fire-type (PS) attacks.
4. Cannot be changed by the non-"Extreme" weather changing Abilities or Moves.
My Opinion: These Abilities did not disappoint! Well, maybe in some places, but overall they're pretty much what Groudon and Kyogre are all about.
First the immunity, GREAT for M-Groudon, not so much for M-Kyogre. Kyogre not only already resists Fire-type attacks, but thematically it doesn't make sense either as Groudon (though now part Fire-type) is the "Land" Pokemon so honestly it should make M-Kyogre immune to Ground-type moves. Now they probably did it in name of balance, normal Harsh Sunlight & Heavy Rain halves the damage of Water-type and Fire-type moves so this is only a natural upgrade (and maybe even reason why Groundon became part Fire-type?), but it sort of breaks the theme as now M-Groudon is immune to the sea yet M-Kyogre isn't to the land. But as someone noted, M-Groudon is still weak to Ground-types (oh the irony) and Kyogre learns Earthquake (though with that said Groudon can learn Solar Beam (which is can now do FOREVER if it wants), Thunderbolt, and Thunder). Also this means Kyogre can't use its new signature move on M-Groudon unless its removed or they make their signature moves ignore the effects of Abilities.
Speaking of which, them not being effected by the other weather changing Abilities and Moves is a nice boost to. However they made sure to mention that some Pokemon can still remove it which means that it sounds like the Ability Air Lock and Cloud Nine will still clear them (so yes, Psyduck has the power to remove god-like Pokemon powers, who knew). Honestly they probably should have also threw in Cloud Nine in there so that only Air Lock worked, once again works a bit more thematically. Also I'm also going to assume the other (TOTALLY) "Extreme (DUDE!)" Weather will change the weather, though considering how in Emerald we saw the two weather effects happening at the same time when Kyogre and Groudon fighting you'd think they would have made it so that when both of them are out that maybe it'll "combine" the effects of both Abilities. Like it would do the following:
1. Water & Fire-type Moves do double damage except to M-Kyogre and M-Groudon who are immune.
2. Solar Beam doesn't need to charge.
3. Thunder & Hurricane has 100% Accuracy.
4. Moonlight, Synthesis, & Morning Sun 2/3 heals.
5. Castform becomes gets a "Extreme Weather" form, becomes Fire/Water, & Weather Ball becomes a Fire/Water dual-type attack.
6. Everything other Move and Ability that activate in Harsh Sunlight & Heavy Rain activates.
7. LET ANARCHY REIGN!
And that's all on the Abilities, except I have to say they do have cool sounding names. Speaking of which, let's also talk about their equally cool sounding new signature attacks. Them hitting all opponents is a nice effect, pretty much a Surf and Earthquake that doesn't hit your allies. Didn't think of that and I guess it wouldn't be so bad if their power was 100 (sure its the same power as Earthquake but Earthquake strikes your grounded allies). With that said, to be fair to Surf, I think its Power should be boosted to 100 too to make it equal footing to Earthquake.
Rayquaza:
Rayquaza was added to the site... and that's all I have to say. Yeah, they don't really talk much about Rayquaza but they do say it's on the same level as Kyogre and Groudon (yet no mention of its connection with Mega Evolution) and it comes down to stop them when they fight, so with them saying that it would be odd for it not to get a Primal Evolution. Though now with M-Kyogre and M-Groudon having being given a new Signature Ability and Move, what would this mean for Rayquaza?
Oddly enough Rayquaza has been able to keep its Ability to itself (thanks to Cloud Nine's existence), so with that said I actually suggest boosting Air Lock. Maybe instead of removing weather, Air Lock sort of "modifies" the weather by removing all the negative effects on its side of the field while removing all the positive effects on the opponent's side of the field. Show Groudon and Kyogre who's REALLY boss around here! "Oh, you want you're TOTALLY EXTREME WEATHER? Fine, have it, IT WON'T BE GOOD FOR YOU THOUGH! HA!".
As for a signature move. Hmm, well obviously it would be a Flying-type move, but should it be a copy of Origin Pulse and Precipice Blades? To me Rayquaza is the type of Pokemon who likes to deal with you one-on-one, and by that I mean it would rather do a WHOLE lot of damage to one Pokemon instead of trying to spread out to multiple. Hmm, maybe make a strong Flying-type version of Flame Burst that does a lot of damage to the targeted Pokemon and a smaller (but still a considerable amount) of damage to all the others. They can call it, hmm, oh, how about "Eye of the Storm"? "Umm, isn't the eye of the storm the safest place to be?" Baby, when Rayquaza is out on the field, NO ONE is safe.
I EAT JESUS FOR BREAKFAST!
To be fair I said that as a joke. Kyogre using physical moves is funny and Kyogre using physical moves on something with Groudon's physical bulk is even funnier. Under Extremely Harsh Sun, Ice Beam is Primal Kyogre's best option (assuming current move pools) it does the same or more damage and lets you invest fully in sp.atk instead of being mixed.
As for all your Rayquaza speculation I was kind of thinking a Dragon type signature move (no more outrage plz) but Flying could be cool too. While we're wildly speculating what if Primal Rayquaza brings a WHOLE NEW type of weather? Like a new ability called "Primeval Atmosphere" that starts up a "Wind Storm" weather condition with all kinds of boons to Levitate and Flying types? I'd be more excited to see that then something like mixing weather types or altering their effects (though that's possible too)
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