I have no problem with banning Geomancy considering it has no relevant users (as far as I know) in UU except Smeargle. I just don't see why QD Smeargle wouldn't be broken, so just banning the mon outright saves a ton of time.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
np: XY UU Stage 3 - Calling [Diggersby: BL, Next: Scolipede]
- Thread starter kokoloko
- Start date
- Status
Additionally, UU's tiering philosophy is to get all broken things out of the tier, even if that means a little collateral damage (like shitty smeargle hazard sets). Banning just geomancy and seeing if QD smeargle is broken runs counter to this (as well as being a kind of convoluted method of dealing with the problem).
Saying QD Smeargle will be better than QD Venomoth is definitely questionable. Reason being, Venomoth was faster, bulkier and actually had real offense. Smeargle has none of these things. Besides, QD Smeargle hasn't really been tested in the tier, because GeoSmear was just BETTER.
Well, there are a few differences:
- Venomoth has superior bulk on both sides of the spectrum.
- Venomoth has an arguably superior typing, that allows it to setup on certain Pokemon easier, and immunity to toxic, whereas normal typing doesn't offer much.
- Venomoth has a much better ability in Wonder Skin, giving it the potential to dodge taunts and other status while still setting up.
- And then Venomoth can be a threat itself with its own abilities to sweep, especially when using Tinted Lens.
EDIT: Gre'ninjad by Shinra
No one said QD Smeargle is on par with Venomoth but that doesn't mean it isn't broken. It has more tools to utilize (most significantly, Dark Void and Magic Coat or even Ingrain) over Veno as a trade-off for worse bulk, typing and speed. Ofc GeoSmeargle/QD Venomoth are better but that doesn't stop QD Smeargle from being broken in the tier.
In sync with UU's tiering method, banning Smeargle, as a potential broken 'mon, is the way to go. However, when retesting it, it could be devided into to phases - one with Geomancy ( probably just to mark a 'v' on it's brokeness ) and the other without it, to test if QDSmeargle or any other sets without Geomancy would be proven broken.
Magic Coat, Spore and Taunt force just as many 50/50s as Venomoth. Will he boost this turn or will he Magic Coat the Taunt/Encore back to Sableye? Geo, QD, ShellSmash, Shift Gear, it's all the same thing. I know Venomoth could absorb Toxic Spikes, resisted fairy, etc.., and typing is better. But, Smeargle's movepool is so much more superior.
Imagine if people had caught on to the Memento/Dual Screens/Tailwind Support template from denisss team during the Venomoth era? Do you know impossible it would've been to KO that stupid moth?
-2 252 SpA Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Venomoth through Light Screen: 102-121 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
-2 252 SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Smeargle through Light Screen: 126-149 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
If Smeargle gets a QD Boost....
-2 252 SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Smeargle through Light Screen: 85-100 (27 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Barring a crit hit, Smeargle is still guaranteed to boost 1 more time and essentially have a Geomancy boost. You want Focus Blast to land 3x lol good luck At +1, it can just Spore Alakazam and pass the boosts (or get really greedy and go for more!) and pass it to something ridiculous like Espeon or Toge.
Not contradicting what you just said, I'm just adding :-)
Sleepless had a good idea with doing it in phazes, but now that the memento/dual screens/tailwind support is so easy to abuse, I don't think we'll see too many people deviating from this template and will still get pretty similar results. That's IMO though...
Wouldn't Lucario work against Whimsicott? Whim tailwinds as you come in, Memento's reducing you to -2, Smeargle comes in as you CC, dealing 55.7 - 65.9%, CC as he CG's, dealing 22.2 - 26.4%, with total damage being 77.9-92.3, then all Smeargle can do is Baton Pass out to Espeon/Togekiss, with a +3 def. boost. That still will be annoying, but hopefully you have special attackers.
A difference b/t QD and Geo is the amount of turns it takes. For instance, if this turn order is followed,
1
Screen
2
Screen
3
Boom
4
Tailwind
5
Memento
6
Boost
7
Boost
8
Boost
9
Pass
then if Whim has to Taunt or Smeargle has to Spore/Dark Void/Taunt/Magic Coat, the screens will run out AS HE IS BOOSTING, which means you can hit him twice as hard. However, he will still be at +0/+3/+1/+1/+1|+2/+3/+2/+0/+3|+1/+3/+0/+0/+2 (QD, Smash, Shift Gear), which could be an issue.
A difference b/t QD and Geo is the amount of turns it takes. For instance, if this turn order is followed,
1
Screen
2
Screen
3
Boom
4
Tailwind
5
Memento
6
Boost
7
Boost
8
Boost
9
Pass
then if Whim has to Taunt or Smeargle has to Spore/Dark Void/Taunt/Magic Coat, the screens will run out AS HE IS BOOSTING, which means you can hit him twice as hard. However, he will still be at +0/+3/+1/+1/+1|+2/+3/+2/+0/+3|+1/+3/+0/+0/+2 (QD, Smash, Shift Gear), which could be an issue.
Or he just Spores you and get more potential turns to set up.
It is interesting, though, to consider that before Smeargle went OU, people only saw him as a nuisance more than anything else. Just something that clicks Spore, and proceeds to set up Web/Rocks or pass off a setup move or two. Only now that he has dropped back down and Denisss made his infamous team that we now are really going after the poor dog.
TBH before this we didnt have Espeon or Togekiss as recipients (and obviously unlike OU no Sylveon either).
Granted, there was shit like goth but still.
Except it isn't so much -who- he is passing to (Espeon is a great recipient because of Stored Power, but there's others who can easily abuse the boosts), it is -how- he is setting up that seems to be causing the real problem. A Smeargle trying to GeoPass isn't a huge deal - it's just a double Quiver Dance in 1 turn - but it becomes a much bigger issue if you're trying to stop him behind screens and at -2/-2.
It seems the easiest thing to do would be banning Smeargle, even though the core of the problem seems to be more of a team setup than a single 'mon.
And here I was hopeful to see the silly V-Create Smeargle/Assist Contrary Spinda teams again...
I'm starting to see use in Diancie/Metagross here to stop Memento with Clear Body because it will force Cottonee/Whimsicott to faint without lowering any stats. Talk about vain sacrifices.
To be honest, having either of them faint is just getting free offensive momentum, which is good for GeoPass teams.
But Smeargle will be far easier to break if all your attacks don't do a quarter of their usual damage (either way their faint and get momentum so that's moot point), meaning that the opposing team will be more hard-pressed to fight back.
Metagross is a good Pokemon in itself but it also has a very neat ability and it also its secondary purpose on my team is to thwart Cottonee/Whim, just saying
Will that honestly even matter? Even if Memento fails, you still have Reflect and Tailwind going for you. Besides, ate 252+, Smeargle outspeeds both Gross and Diancie, and outspeeds Tentacruel after Tailwind. In the former's case, Smeargle can easily get a Cotton Guard up. In the latter's case, there's not much Tentacruel can actually do.
And it can just spore any of those counters since itsl hits 546 speed with tailwind and 252+ .
the vote on the september shift just concluded.
the results were smeargle, geomancy, victini, and togekiss getting the temporary BL boot. but since, chances are, smeargle without geomancy isn't broken, we'll be testing it first. this means the other three will be removed from the ladder as soon as the PS staff gets around to it.
Ernesto or Calloflochie will be updating the records thread soon as well.
enjoy :]
the results were smeargle, geomancy, victini, and togekiss getting the temporary BL boot. but since, chances are, smeargle without geomancy isn't broken, we'll be testing it first. this means the other three will be removed from the ladder as soon as the PS staff gets around to it.
Ernesto or Calloflochie will be updating the records thread soon as well.
enjoy :]
Bring on the Darmanitan, Entei, and Arcanine fire spam. js
chandelure feels very lonely
anyways swampert and mega ampharos will greatly decrease in usage because of victini ban. sadly, i need to remake all of my teams because idk what to do without v-create spam
anyways swampert and mega ampharos will greatly decrease in usage because of victini ban. sadly, i need to remake all of my teams because idk what to do without v-create spam
How could I forget about the best Infernape switch-in :P
Diancie was never just a victini check, it walls most physical attackers fairly well, victini was just the most important.
Ummm....
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Diancie: 99-117 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- 2.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Diancie: 96-113 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Victini Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Diancie: 88-105 (28.9 - 34.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yah. Definitely a Victini switch in. Not too much use anymore sadly.
- Status