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i still think toxic is the best option. i'd be ok with making SR the last move on the set though if that satisifies you Jukain
also: i have been toying around with the spikes set again since my disapproval above. it requires a spinner (excadrill) but taunt / spikes / roost / counter is actually pretty good and it is excellent against opposing stalls. should this get a set if it requires such specific teammates?
alright, i'm fine with that. i've played with skarm a bit more recently and tried out toxic, it's worked out much better than when i originally had tested having lots of uses espec for bulky crap and things like keld/rotom/lando that love to get free switch-ins.
yea spikes skarm is really good vs stall. you can wear them down, spikes has 3x the pp of defog and you pressure them to defog, plus your skarm (creep a bit with taunt, though we wouldn't include that in the analysis) can stop their skarm from defogging which means you can actually keep your spikes up pretty well. i actually tried that set with mega blast which does better vs defoggers in general (exca gives skarm/mandi free opps) and it was cool.
alright, i'm fine with that. i've played with skarm a bit more recently and tried out toxic, it's worked out much better than when i originally had tested having lots of uses espec for bulky crap and things like keld/rotom/lando that love to get free switch-ins.
yea spikes skarm is really good vs stall. you can wear them down, spikes has 3x the pp of defog and you pressure them to defog, plus your skarm (creep a bit with taunt, though we wouldn't include that in the analysis) can stop their skarm from defogging which means you can actually keep your spikes up pretty well. i actually tried that set with mega blast which does better vs defoggers in general (exca gives skarm/mandi free opps) and it was cool.
So after re-testing Skarmory's Spikes set I'm inclined to agree with Dice. Definitely agreeing that specific teammates are mandatory (you need reliable SR for Thundy/Charizard, Spinner, Defiant user, spinblocker/several things to beat Excadrill imo) but the team functioned well enough. Seems kinda hard to fit into a team that's not really tailored for it but since it's effective enough on its own team I don't think it hurts to give it an analysis.
I personally prefer Whirlwind to Counter on this set - considering you basically have to use this on a hazard-centric team, Whirlwind is so useful for getting chip damage on random things along with making it so much more risky for the opponent to directly switch Charizard or Thundurus into Skarmory. Counter still has merit though for being a much better way to directly damage opponents, which is definitely useful in certain scenarios, so I am completely fine with slashing it.
Like with other Skarmory sets I'm not personally a fan of Rocky Helmet but I know a lot of other people are so I'll keep it slashed.
EVs are to outspeed defensive Mega Venusaur and Mandibuzz.
with the resurgence of magnezone, shed shell needs to be given more attention, even over leftovers in my opinion. with aegislash gone, birds, terrakion, dragons, and psychics are all making a comeback, skarm is one of the premier answers to these pokemon. i suggest just having rocky helmet/shed shell as the main options. rocky helmet over lefties since you'll be getting knocked off more often than not, and helmet at least gives you chip damage.. it's also really useful against exca that want to spin, diggers/pinsir/staraptor, dragons, just everything. shell because keeping your skarmory alive to beat the new DragMags and BirdMags is essential.
on your spike spread, 84 EVs in speed seems like a little bit too much bulk to be sacrificing for fast taunts.. plus all defensive venu run 16 speed EVs to outpace adamant mawile and azu, so you don't even outspeed what you're invested to outspeed. please don't mention this spread anywhere. stick with 252/252, you can mention that one 32 speed spread in other options in combination with taunt. don't slash spikes in the main moveset, just mention it in other options, and that it's only good with certain teammates.
val already explained shed shell nicely so i wont go into that. anyways, counter is mandatory on skarm. no two ways about it. reason why: +2 cc 2hkoes skarm, so if you just ww rocks or ww toxic all you're doing is delaying an inevitable pinsir sweep unless you play really well and get this opportunity to roost, but what are you gonna do when pinsir comes back into megasaur or whatever and you haven't gotten a chance to roost yet... i like ww in the last slot so you can be more flexible vs boosters, especially like sub gyara which is going to set up on skarm otherwise. however, it's definitely not mandatory. skarm can be an ok rocker if you need it because it usually gets plenty of opportunities to rock on opposing physical attackers that it walls/checks, and you really don't need ww or taunt. you do put a lot of pressure to rock + defog on skarm when you have both, but oftentimes it's a necessary evil and it's not like skarm is doing a bad job at this. toxic is fine, that can be slashed if you want, you just can't run ww toxic anymore like at all because it isn't good enough vs pinsir. taunt is cool especially if you're creeping to stop rocks from slower mons like hippowdon and ferrothorn and to stop opp skarms from defogging.
for the spikes set, taunt + ww is rather redundant. i'd prefer ww / taunt or taunt / ww + counter, as again you need counter to deal with pinsir adequately. helm / shell, again, on this set.
bb is an option over counter in all instances, but i don't think it has as much general application to deserve a slash.
I saw CTC use a Skarmory set in Frontier that seemed to be a combination of the one above + the Spikes set. It worked pretty effectively, I believe the set was this:
So yeah, you're ditching Taunt on the Spikes set and Defog on the Defensive set to create a hybrid of the two. What's great about Counter + Whirlwind + SR is that unless the opponent has several hard-hitting Skarmory counters alive and healthy (defensive Rotom-W, for example, doesn't hit hard enough alone to prevent this set from being a nuisance) you can easily dismantle the opponent's team. Unlike the Spikes set, this set is much more difficult to take down due to the risk of using physical attacks and the fact that it only needs a single turn to set up hazards, yet unlike the standard Defog set, it can run both a hazard and Whirlwind to spread damage a lot more evenly.
I used spikes taunt skarmory a good bit a while back, i'd like to weigh in.
Firstly, you gotsta outspeed manlybuzz. Of course, this inevitably ends in creepwars, but oh well. You can still mention a max/max or 32 or whatever spread. Without manlybuzz (and thus most other skarm, even megazor, don't sleep on it as bulky megagarde stop that doesnt make you feel dirty like dou), outsped, you're getting fogged too often by a longshot. Not to mention, spike the switch, taunt, spike the switch. 2 layers and counting!
It's worth noting that my team is designed to taunt the shit out of stuff, which is partly why spikes were so good on it. And why i got away with using defog.
This brings up something i've been thinking about, i.e. how do you explain about speed creep within the analysis? I feel like there's a lotta "well obv u gotta creep", in the qc threads, and yet less experienced players don't know. I don't mean telling people what spreads to run, just making them aware of the practice and its nuances. Anyhow, thoughts if anyone reading this is interested or has a good idea?
I also find the last attack shouls be countet. On the one hand, this can make you feel really helpless at times, when you know a danger is coming in and cant do shit.
On the other hand, it lets you take on mega pinsir quite well; rocky helmet roost if you are worried about multiple sd; it's imperfect and you will have to maybe predict once but oh well.
So why not bb? Well, this also lets you beat SD megazor, espc. with taunt. Plus, sd digger, sd landoT, any sd or dd you take one hit from really.
Basically counter is like a subpar ww and a subpar bb, but it's important you have both. Maybe slash bb after counter and ww after taunt since it can also be a defogger switchin countermove, but it's a suckish one.
Shed shell is hella situational, but in the situations it applies in, it's kick ass. If the opponent thinks they've got skarm all sewn up, they tend to load up on shit skarm shrekts-hell, this is like half of dragmag on its own. Then you drop the boom and much sadness is had.
Edit: Fuck, i forgot to say. Holy shit nice analysis. A lot of fun to read, has all the info i could think of. Meaty and satisfying, much like my ex-wife
Don't like this post, i don't want the compliment cheapened
In lieu of liking Tehy's post, just posting to say I agree with all of your points, but it's difficult to express the speed creep in this analysis simply because you're trying to outspeed something that's already trying to outspeed something else and that's not good practice in an analysis. However, if QC is alright with it, I'd like to imply in team options that Skarmory can be EV'd to outspeed Mandibuzz (e.g., "Unless Skarmory can outspeed and taunt Mandibuzz, you should carry something that can take the opportunity to take advantage of the inevitable free turn created by Defog.")
I'll ask again; what are QC thoughts on the CTC Skarmory set I outlined above? I tried it out myself a few weeks ago and despite the fact that the metagame's changed a bit since then I believe it would still be rather effective. I'd be partial to including it in a separate set; it plays differently enough from the other two sets that I think it warrants its own spot.
shell is mandatory, i wouldn't even consider any other item because otherwise your skarm just gets fucked by zone so you get rolled by common stuff like pinsirzone/diggs. i actually don't like this set in the op at all. this is the set i'd prefer:
roost fog are p mandatory obv, you need counter or bb to beat pinsir since they all run cc which does over half plus without counter/bb skarm has no ability to hurt anything it's supposed to beat besides phazing which is dumb because skarm can't actually outlast these mons in many scenarios. counter is usually preferred for pretty obvious reasons, though bb is cool so you can actually damage things directly. this is nice so pinsir can't screw around with multiple sd's, can help combat megacross, and punishes switch-ins of things like zard y/gard/ninja/keld/venu/latis. guess you can throw rocks in moves or whatever, i don't think fog + rocks is good on skarm because it puts way too much pressure on it. taunt + counter is nice for last mon stuff as well as letting it successfully prevent rocks from things like ferro and landt.
i've used counter ww rocks and i think oo is pretty fair, wouldn't go so far as to give it its own set.
Brave Bird skarmory doesn't counter Pinsir since the 16% recoil will put it into Return 2HKO range. Counter is the only reliable way for Skarmory to deal with Pinsir since it cannot possibly KO it thanks to Sturdy.
I agree otherwise though, Spikes are only usefull in stall vs stall games in XY(which are rare, definitely on the top of the ladder), since everything hits way too hard to wear down opponents through entry hazard damage. Also you really never should be running Rocky helmet or Leftovers, Italian teams(Garchomp/Diggersby/Azumarill/Latios/Pinsir/Magnezone) are running rampant(I litterally encounter this team every 5 games on the top of the ladder) and you definitely don't want to lose your skarmory to magnezone against these teams.
Throwing SR in moves as one of those "if you can't fit it anywhere else" options
Unless TRC objects strongly, throwing Lefties and Rocky Helmet in OO rather than Set Details.
I'll be using the above points as my blueprint. If no one has any objections I'll start making these changes, write it up, and have it ready for a final check.
I'm not QC so take what I say with a pinch of salt
TBH, I've been using Spikes Skarm and TBH I think that it should get a main set on that basis that it takes such a huge dump on stall, which is IMO a big enough draw alone, but also because Skarm has a really easy time setting up vs. quite a few common spinners and Defoggers (most notably Excadrill and Mandi - with Mandi being on most stall teams and SpD Exca rising in usage on stall*) courtesy of Taunt and its great typing/defense stat. While it is incredibly team-reliant, its ability to beat a large number of Pokemon on stall (Non-HP Fire M-Venu, Mandibuzz, Excadrill, Skarmory (most on Stall run 0 speed), Ferrothorn, Chansey, non-Flamethrower Blissey etc.) is enough of a drawing point to make it worthwhile for use, and the Mandi speed creep problem is negated by running enough speed on the analysis to outpace standard (not creeping until you start trying to outpace ones which are creeping) and mentioning that creeping is recommended in set details. While it does get completely destroyed by offensive strategies, there are quite a lot of checks to offense that enjoy Skarm as a teammate for it to be worthwhile. Spikes skarm is one of those things which has noth main-set-viability and OO viability at the same time, so if it doesn't get the main set I wouldn't complain/argue as it is one of those things, but I feel that its draws are enough to justify it getting a main set personally.
*due to how good an anti-meta 'mon it is (capable of switching in to and beating a variety of common checks to stall like Mega Gardevoir, Mega Diancie, Magnezone, Clefable and non-Surf/EQ Latios (can come in on HP Fire 100% of the time and most Latias), being better than shitty AV Driller due to its ability to use Toxic, to realistically use a defensive spread and to passively recover with Leftovers and being great on stall itself (especially spikes shuffling variants of the strat, but it is good regardless of whether or not this is the case).
IIRC 84 speed EVs is enough to outpace 0 speed Mandibuzz to Taunt and prevent Defog. Should I mention this in the analysis for if Spikes is being used?
I'd mention Iron Head in OO since that enables Skarmory to counter non-HP Fire Diancie which you can't really touch otherwise. You also get to beat Taunt MAero for what it's worth (though I don't think that set is really relevant anymore)
I also think Counter is pretty much mandatory at this point since it enables you to not lose to Mega Metagross which is one of the main things you're using Skarmory for in the first place. The only reason I would drop Counter is if I'm running Rocky Helmet+Whirlwind and can eventually beat MMetagross by constantly forcing it to take recoil and phazing it before you're forced to Roost on its Hammer Arm, but since RH isn't even slashed I personally don't think Brave Bird should be either.
Adding to what Albacore said, I think Skarmory should run 29 speed IVs if not running any investment. This way, Jolly Mega Metagross doesn't underspeed you at -2, so you can Roost to be healthier and then Counter when he's at -3.
Idk about unslashing Brave Bird though, as it helps with Mega Lopunny's Power-Up Punch shenanigans, Mega Gallade, and some rare fighting types such as Toxicroak and Conkeldurr.
