I recall people fawning over pgysical megamence but im leaning a bit towards hypervoice Mmence if the boosts are decent.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
ORAS General Discussion - Mark 2 - Spoilers Inside
- Thread starter Stellar
- Start date
- Status
Well, we know that Gamefreak focuses mainly on VGC when designing Pokemon, and in VGC, Salamence is almost always used as a special attack. So it wouldn't be too surprising if Gamefreak were to give it a larger special attack boost than attack boost.
Though, since Gamefreak has only emphasized on Salamence's defense stat getting a major boost, we're probably going to get something like: +0/+20/+50/+20/+0/+10 -> 95/155/130/130/80/110. Still scary no matter what it runs.
I'd say this is far from ideal. First, Sceptile's type isn't the greatest offensively. We should keep in mind there are far more types resisting Grass and Dragon than types hit super-effectively, which means Sceptile will more often than not have to fall back on coverage moves. To make things worse, Sceptile's ofenses are average for OU, so if GF try to boost them both, Mega Sceptile (which can't use a LO like its base form) might end up having a lower damage outpot than regular Sceptile. And that's awful for a mega!
Also, since Sceptile lacks a consistent way of boosting its Sp.Atk and even at 145 Sp.Atk (which sadly is a best case scenario) won't have an extraordinary damage output, I'd say it's more of a hit-and-runner (trying to grab a Lightning Rod boost or hurt things with Leaf Storm) or late game cleaner. It probably won't be a main sweeper or wall breaker. So let me argue that instead of an Atk boost over even a huge speed boost, it just needs as much bulk as necessary so it can afford a mispredict on the switch. Just give it +5 Speed so it'll outspeed Greninja and every other Dragon in the game. +11~20 would be nice for outspeed Jolteon/Mega Manectric and being able to force them out after absorbing an electric move, but that's too specific. I'd personally give it +5 so it can get as bulky as possible. Having 145 Sp.Atk/125 Speed would leave 55 points for defenses, potentially turning Mega Sceptile into a specially based Garchomp - a fast and powerful sweeper with the ability to survive a powerful hit as long as it's not super effective. And it would still be outclassed offensively by Garchomp because of its worse STAB and lack of LO/set-up move.
But of course GF won't do that. They'll probably overinvest in Speed and dump some points in Atk, possibly giving it a Sp.Atk lower than 145 and a mere +10~15 on defenses. That way Sceptile will remain frail and hitting decently at best (but above the average for OU). In other words, rather mediocre :/
I don't quite agree with that. Okay, Rayquaza doesn't share a commom origin with Groudon and Kyogre, but they're still a trio that should be given equal treatment. They have an in-game link (Rayquaza stopping Groudon and Kyogre in Emerald) and an external link (they're third Gen main game's box legendaries). It's like the starter trio: they have no relationship according to the lore but they belong together nevertheless. Just think at how everybody reacted when only Blaziken got a Mega Evolution. Or how weird it would be if Mawile were given a mega evolution and Sableye a regular evolution. I agree it won't be crazy and random if they come up with a new story and Rayquaza ends up as the only member of the weather trio to get a mega evolution and not a primal devolution, but it still won't feel right.
Okay, back on topic:
What if Rayquaza's "secret to Mega-evolution" is that he has a version specific form that counters the cover legend? So Omega Mega Ray gets a huge defense boost and Alpha Mega Ray gets a special defense boost. ...
When I thought of that idea, it sounded nice, but now I remember that Kyogre and Groudon are supposed to counter/challenge one another and Mega Ray cleans up after the two of them. So that makes it seem like one Mega Rayquaza with Mega Air Lock, and no surprises for us?
Now to M-Sceptile: It seems many people in this forum think that M-Sceptile's SpA will be >= Att. I mostly agree with this, but I think there are more physically oriented dragons than special, andDragon was physical before the phys-spec split ...EDIT... let me just support the lack of trust in posters with a low post count. Perhaps Sceptile will get a high Att boost to go with the great physical movepool and Dragon flavor?
Additional edit: I'd love to see M-Sceptile get a level up Dragon Pulse.
What if Rayquaza's "secret to Mega-evolution" is that he has a version specific form that counters the cover legend? So Omega Mega Ray gets a huge defense boost and Alpha Mega Ray gets a special defense boost. ...
When I thought of that idea, it sounded nice, but now I remember that Kyogre and Groudon are supposed to counter/challenge one another and Mega Ray cleans up after the two of them. So that makes it seem like one Mega Rayquaza with Mega Air Lock, and no surprises for us?
Now to M-Sceptile: It seems many people in this forum think that M-Sceptile's SpA will be >= Att. I mostly agree with this, but I think there are more physically oriented dragons than special, and
Additional edit: I'd love to see M-Sceptile get a level up Dragon Pulse.
Last edited:
Well, to be fair, Dragon moves aren't known for their super-effective coverage, but rather their great neutral coverage. In fact, the only type that resists both Dragon and Grass is Steel, which M-Sceptile can handle by using Focus Blast (albeit with accuracy concerns) or by going mixed and using Earthquake.
In game, though, Energy Ball/Leaf Blade, Dragon Pulse/Dragon Claw, and Focus Blast/Earthquake should be all M-Sceptile needs to be your in-game-wreck-train. I just hope Sceptile gets an updated move pool so that he'll have Dragon STAB for the playthrough.
Primal Ray could do something similar to Zygarde where Air Lock now reverses the effects of weather while still personally being unaffected. It's a good way to give Ray essentially double resists to fire/water without reducing it's own power. And it ties into the lore as well.
Dragon was special before the physical/special split so let's get that straight. I'm almost certain they're going to add DPulse to Sceptile's movepool somewhere for these games, like they did with Ampharos, so no worries there.
Dragon was special before the physical/special split so let's get that straight. I'm almost certain they're going to add DPulse to Sceptile's movepool somewhere for these games, like they did with Ampharos, so no worries there.
As long as the animation for Dragon Pulse has it coming out of M-Sceptile's tail, I'll be good
Just so we're clear, would posting possible stats be considered getting too close to competitive talk?
Hmm, Air Lock being turned to a Weather version of Aura Break, I guess it could work. Then again maybe we shouldn't change the core function of Air Lock negating weather effects. It should have something additional, like maybe it'll allow you to set up weather but not your opponent.
In addition Sceptile already gets Dragon Claw via TM so it has Physical essentially covered (though they may want to consider adding Outrage and/or Dragon Rush as (an) Egg Move(s)). I also think they should allow Pokemon who Mega's are part Dragon-type to be able to learn Draco Meteor. Like if you have them holding their Mega Stone the lady will sense a Dragon aura resonating from them and agree to teach it to them. If M-Sceptile could get Draco Meteor maybe it could become a mixed attacker, first doing huge amounts of damage with one or two Draco Meteors before switching over to its Physical attacks.
For Mega Sceptile, I'm really hoping for something a la 70 / 115 / 75 / 125 / 115 / 130
High special defense will allow more realistic switch ins, something his ability and typing really helps as well. Mixed offenses are way more interesting imo, especially in game. Main problem with this is that he lacks U-Turn and Draco Meteor, two moves that he could really abuse to their full extent.
As for primal Ray, I would find it absolutely hilarious if its ability reversed weather, like made heavy rain harsh sun. That way he'd be immune to all of Kyogre and Groudon's STABs. He'd even then be able to pull off pure counter sets with moves such as surf or solar beam to take advantage of this weather, which would fit its role in the story.
High special defense will allow more realistic switch ins, something his ability and typing really helps as well. Mixed offenses are way more interesting imo, especially in game. Main problem with this is that he lacks U-Turn and Draco Meteor, two moves that he could really abuse to their full extent.
As for primal Ray, I would find it absolutely hilarious if its ability reversed weather, like made heavy rain harsh sun. That way he'd be immune to all of Kyogre and Groudon's STABs. He'd even then be able to pull off pure counter sets with moves such as surf or solar beam to take advantage of this weather, which would fit its role in the story.
Last edited:
Correction: Before the split in 4th gen Dragon type moves were special.
On topic: I think Mega sceptile will be special but we really need for it a Movepool update or move tutors as the only Dragon move it learns via eggmove is Dragonbreath I hope for ORAS with move Tutors but unless confirmed my hope is frail.
I think rayquazas ability definetly needs to take into account his ice type weakness, possibly negating it such as groudons ability granting immunity to water. Otherwise rayquaza will keep getting his ass handed to him by kyogre, which is completely against the point of having rayquaza.
Just like Kyogre's ability really patched up that weakness to fire...oh wait.
I really like the idea of 2 Rayquaza forms, not necessarily 1 Primal and 1 Mega, that specifically counter one of the other two. Omega gains a huge boost to SpA and has a signature move that can hit Groudon really hard, while Alpha loses the flying typing and has a signature move that can hit Kyogre hard. It'd make sense with the two games, and something like this is the best reason I can think of that they haven't announced anything for Rayquaza yet, even though he's clearly getting something.
Why would you drop flying if he is a pokemon who lives in the ozone layer and is often reffered as the sky one in the trio?
The same reason why a Pokemon with clouds all over it Mega Evolves from a Dragon/Flying type to a Dragon/Fairy. ;)
... that also learns Cotton Guard, which gives another interpretation...
I think the comparison is flawed. Altaria is a magical dragon evolved from a bird (normal/flying Swablu). Rayquaza losing its flying type doesn't make any sense in any level. A pokémon that lives in the ozon layer and can be found at Sky Pillar and can neutralize weather with its ability to fly suddenly losing its flying type. Altaria was slowing giving up on its flying type: it became a gracious dragon, became able to learn Moonblast and last mega evolved into a Fairy/Dragon type. Rayquaza has always been all about sky, atmosphere and weather.
Ideally, Rayquaza would get an ability that grants an immunity against all types weather is based on (and thus Rock and Ice too because of Sandstorm and Hail). But that would be too much and we know that. When GF gave Primal Groudon Desolate Land, I'm sure their main concern wasn't balance but pertinence. Drought weakens water-type moves, so nothing more natural than a super Drought turning that into an immunity. And that's why I think that mega Rayquaza will at best get an immunity to water and fire because it fits its role in the Groudon vs Kyogre story. It would still be pretty good, since Rayquaza is already immune to Ground and would also become virtually immune to burn (not even Scald could touch it, the only way it would be able to get burned is by using contact moves against pokémon with the Flame Body ability).
It wasn't meant to be a serious comparison. I do think Rayquaza losing its Flying type during Mega/Primal Evo/Devolution is quite unlikely since it's basically the Pokemon of the sky, but anything is possible.
Yeah Rayquaza is essentially the embodiment of air and the sky, much like Groudon and Kyogre are for their respective elements. Losing the flying-type just wouldn't make sense, and it's also why I want any signature moves it receives to be Flying-type (we have enough Dragon ones).
EDIT: Is anyone else curious whether or not the other Hoenn legendary pokemon will tie into the story? It seems to me like they could easily include Mega Latios / Latias's mega stone at Southern Island following the Soul Dew event.
EDIT: Is anyone else curious whether or not the other Hoenn legendary pokemon will tie into the story? It seems to me like they could easily include Mega Latios / Latias's mega stone at Southern Island following the Soul Dew event.
I'm still wondering about mega deoxys. I'm doubtful that they would make it because they would probly have to make four mega forms, but from the pictures they seemed to have revamped the space station which could be linked to deoxys. Total speculation, but I don't think it would be fair to give mega/primal forms to half the hoenn legendaries but leave the other half out. I know gamefreak isn't about "fair", but if the other hoenn legends don't get mega evos now I don't think they ever will. Also if rayquaza has the secret to mega evolution, I would think that there would be more hoenn pokemon with mega evos if hoenn is the source.
Rayquaza, Groudon, and Kyogre are NOT the embodiment of their respective zones, they are extremely powerful pokemon that can manipulate the elements of the zones they are attributed to. Their pokedex entries are very specific not to say anything absolute, only "said to be"s and "in mythology", so saying Rayquaza is the embodiment of the sky is not a good reason to keep his flying type.
A good reason to lose it in one of his forms (assuming we get multiple) is that his confirmed role is to settle the fight between Rayquaza and Groudon, and as it has been pointed out many times, it's unable to do that with that 4x ice weakness that Kyogre can exploint, and even GF recognizes this, so speculation regarding how GF might approach this is logical, and one way would be to remove the 4x weakness altogether.
That's why I said what I said earlier. I honestly was mostly thinking out loud, and don't know what to expect, but I do believe 2 forms with optimal typings is a realistic possibility.
A good reason to lose it in one of his forms (assuming we get multiple) is that his confirmed role is to settle the fight between Rayquaza and Groudon, and as it has been pointed out many times, it's unable to do that with that 4x ice weakness that Kyogre can exploint, and even GF recognizes this, so speculation regarding how GF might approach this is logical, and one way would be to remove the 4x weakness altogether.
That's why I said what I said earlier. I honestly was mostly thinking out loud, and don't know what to expect, but I do believe 2 forms with optimal typings is a realistic possibility.
We're about to do some serious phone-holding.
Out of 43 Meva Evolved Pokemon (And 41 Pokemon capable of mega evolving), Hoenn native Pokemon take up 18 spaces on that list.
And you think more Hoenn Pokemon should be MEvoing.
Or, since Rayquaza came into being as a cluster of particles out in the ozone layer that gained sentience, he could, ya know, become a pure Flying type with an offbeat ability that minimizes both Groudon and Kyogre's damage output.
If they were going to do anything crazy, I would much prefer that course of action.
Where has this been said?
A green dark stone near Rayquaza ... ? Mega Primal confirmed ?
- Status