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I don't see why people are saying that Clefable outclasses Sylveon with the Wish set... I actually made a post on this a long time ago but can't be bothered to look it up; basically Wish-passing is Sylveon's best niche over Clefable because it just does it better. If you need a SR setter or CM user then go with Clefable obviously. But if you're thinking about a WishPasser than imo Sylveon is the better choice. Why? For one, Sylveon has much better SpDef. You can go physically defensive and still have a switch in to stuff like Greninja and Thundurus. Clefable can't do that. Two, Sylveon hits a lot harder. Here's two calcs to show the difference:
0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 157-186 (47.1 - 55.8%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 112-133 (33.6 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
That's a 13,5% to 15,9% difference in this scenario which is pretty huge for two pokemon who fulfill the same roles. Of course Clefable has Magic Guard/Unaware which are useful, but imo they don't outweigh the pro's of using Sylveon for WishPassing.
Then of course there's the Specs set which hits like a truck but sadly struggles (I find) with Mega Venusaur and Heatran everywhere... Teams without those are in for serious damage though. That's why I find Sylveon is definitely worth using and not even close to outclassed by Clefable. Clefable can do many other things which is why it's so high ranked; Sylveon can only use two sets effectively but they both do their job better than Clefable.
I think if Sylveon should move up, it's for its cleric set not so much its Specs set. If I wanted a more offensive Fairy I would use CM Clefable with Flamethrower/Stored Power in almost all cases. I've been seeing Sylveon more lately and perhaps this has to do with the Mawile ban since that was one of the things holding it back a bit. Also I agree that Clefable doesn't outclass Sylveon when Sylveon has more immediate bulk than Clefable does and the difference between those two is that Clefable has more useful abilities in some scenarios.
I'll be honest as well, I haven't been impressed with Clefable as a cleric. It's generally prone to just way more stuff I feel than Sylveon would be and in terms of being a Fairy type cleric I would more than likely just go with Sylveon at this point. I find it more viable than things like Weavile and Conkeldurr which occupies the B- rank as of now so in terms of viability I think it should move up.
Also TRC would you care to elaborate more on M-Gyarados? I feel like it shouldn't drop simply for those reasons you stated but obviously there must be more legitimate reasons that you didn't bring up.
Mega Gyara doesn't have to fear Lando-T if it holds off Mega Evolving, which is a legitimate option for two reasons. One, regular Gyara is OU viable in his own right and two, Mega Gyara and regular Gyara share the same speed. Those seem to be the two largest issues with not Mega Evoing right away, and neither of them apply. Ferrothorn is an issue for it, but that's what teammates are for and Fire Blast allows you to 2hko Ferro if you are really paranoid about it. A lot of high ranking things have potential thorns in their side in terms of one mon, Keldeo has Azumarill and Char-X has Heatran to start. Ferro can be trapped by PK Fire Mags as well, which is becoming increasingly common in the current meta and does double duty killing Skarm as well. Mega Bagworm also has numerous positives that outweigh those minuses. It benefits huge from it's Mega type change, has two great pre-Mega abilities to pick from, is hilariously bulky, and has maybe two things in the meta that can really handle all it's different sets. Also, regular Sub DD Gyara has issues with Rotom-W, Mega Venu if not running Bounce, and has the same level of issues with Ferro that the Mega does. Overall, I would say dropping Mega Gyara is not a great idea, and it should stay in A+.
From B+ to A-. Magnezone has been gaining recently a lot of popularity and utility because trapping steel-types is really good in the actual metagame, turning out things like Azumarill, Diggersby or Mega Gardevoir in beasts really difficult to deal with. Scarf is his best set without any doubt, and it's not limited at trapping stell-types it retains utility vs offensive teams, for example, threatening Keldeo or Mega Pinsir. In general, the teams Magnezone fits are very strong and good actually (BirdMag for example) and Magnezone is really important piece so it should be move up.
From A- to B+. Hippowdon was way better in pasts metagames, but in the actual metagame it lost a lot of usefulness. It's not that great vs the new strong attackers that have been raising in usage (like Mega Heracross or Mega Pinsir), and it lost the utility of being a Aegislash and somewhat Mawile check. Other important fact that is so passive, its attacks are weaks, makes Hippowdon really easy to take advantage of. Also it's not that good supporting sand because doesn't fit in sand offense builds which is better than more balanced builds actually. And finally, compites a lot for a ground-type slot vs others that are really good actually (like Landorus-T, Garchomp or Gliscor). So I think it should go down.
I would like to talk about other propositions like Mega Gardevoir for A+, but i don't have more time. I'd want ot hear more opinions about these two.
I think i'd like to throw out a reccomendation for Mega Blastoise to move up to C+, as it's one of the bulkier spinners around. I know that it is completely outclassed in it's particular niche, but I think it worth using on certain teams, particularly rain teams or teams who need a spinner that can fend for itself, and with mega launcher it can certainly deal with spinners using dark pulse and pack a punch against most types thanks to it's ability. I personally think it is better and has more use than pretty much every other C mon, except probably Chandelure.
I loved Celebi from day 1 of XY, and my opinion hasn't much changed.
Celebi is really cool because it's got such a wide variety of support options that it can basically tailor its set to whatever your team needs. If you're using something like Mega Manectric + Keldeo, a Nasty Plot Baton Pass set will do wonders. Physical attackers do well with SD BP as well. Heavy hitters like Mega Heracross and Gardevoir become absolute monsters when paired with Sub BP or T wave support. It can also set up rocks if your team needs it, or simply provide momentum with Baton Pass or U-turn. Add on the fact that it counters Keldeo, Azumarill, Landorus, Rotom-W, Lefties Thundurus, and Phys Def can check Excadrill without SD. I mean all of those are pretty great mons in the current meta, and none of them appreciate seeing a Celebi on the opponent's team. Celebi is also able to walk away from burns from Scald or WoW from Rotom thanks to Natural Cure, something Venusaur and Ferrothorn can't boast. I mean, it's not the best mon in the tier, but it sure can be useful if you use it to the best of its ability for your team.
The Taunt/Will-O-Wisp/Softboiled/Knock Off moveset wrecks havoc in the current metagame. Physical attackers without the Guts ability just can't stand up to it. It makes things like Bisharp, (Mega) Tyranitar, and (Mega) Scizor look silly, mons which in theory should be Mew's counters.
With 100/100/100 defensive stats, it has a lot of survivability with defensive investment. With 100 base speed it outpaces bulky mons, stopping their status inflicting moves with Taunt.
Mew's typing isn't great, but it's not terrible either. Knock Off, Foul Play, and U-turn are the only common attacks that its weak to, and Mew usually has no problem surviving these attacks with ease, especially if its able to get a Will-O-Wisp in there. It doesn't have many resistances (Fighting and Psychic... so it laughs at Medicham), but its weaknesses really aren't much of a concern.
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Compare Mew to Slowbro, who is also A ranked.
Slowbro has similar defensive stats (95/110/80), but is much slower with its 30 base speed. This allows a lot of things to inflict status or set up a Substitute on it. It also loses the ability to burn slower things before they get off their first attack, like Bisharp, (Mega) Tyranitar, (Mega) Scizor, Azumarill, and Breloom. In any case, Scald is not always a reliable way to inflict burn, which is far more useful than paralysis against most physical attackers. It also fairs much better against defensive mons like Ferrothorn, Chansey, Skarmory, Mandibuzz and Amoonguss because of Taunt.
Slowbro's main advantages are Regenerator, STAB Scald, and the ability to counter Keldeo. But it doesn't counter the sheer number of top tier threats that Mew does. Slowbro isn't even a (Mega) Gyarados counter because pretty much every (Mega) Gyarados runs Taunt or Substitute, which renders Slowbro useless against it.
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The other thing that so clearly sets Mew apart, not only from Slowbro but pretty much every mon, is its unbelievable versatility. Mew is no one-trick pony. Just look at some of the many utility moves it possesses:
Defog, Stealth Rock, Baton Pass (to go along with possibilities like Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, Barrier, Amnesia, Rock Polish, Bulk Up, and Calm Mind), Heal Bell, Softboiled, Taunt, Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Tailwind, Trick Room, Trick, Dragon Tail, Roar, U-turn, Volt Switch, Reflect, Light Screen and Knock Off.
Until Mew has revealed itself, your opponent can never be quite sure what Mew is about to do.
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For its ability to check a huge portion of the metagame (physical attackers and stall mons alike), along with its incredible versatility, I feel that Mew deserves an A+ ranking.
As a fan of Nymphia (Sylveon), I will prove the effectivity of Sylveon and Clefable on pure bulk.
First, we are going to compare the stats of one and the other:
Nymphia - Clefable
HP: 95 - 95 (exactly the same)
Atk: 65 - 70 (Clefable used to run STAB Facade/STAB Double Edge/STAB Return in Gen IV and V; right now the Attack stat is relvant to both of them)
Def: 65 - 73 (Clefable has exactly 8 more base points in Defense than Sylveon. Yes, 8 points and not more)
SpA: 110 - 95 (Sylveon has 15 more base points of Special Attack than Clefable.)
SpD: 130 - 90 (Sylveon is way better as a special wall than Clefable)
Spe: 60 - 60 (In Speed tie, they aren't similar, they are identical (Also, because neither of the set uses Speed, they are speed tying)
Total: 525 - 483 (Sylveon has a better stat spread).
Abilities: Sylveon has Pixilate (allows Hyper Voice to be Fairy-type and have 117 BP) and Cute Charm. While Clefable has Magic Guard (inmune to almost any type of passive damage), Unaware (ignore stat boosts) and Cute Charm.
Main set of Clefable vs main set of Sylveon:
The main Unaware Clefable set is this:
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell
Exactly the same set than Sylveon.
In other words, to prove that Unaware Clefable is better to Sylveon, we have to proof the number of set-up sweepers in this metagame.
But before that, we got to the movepool. Where Clefable shines because Sylveon has Hyper Voice (only main thing that separates from Clefable offensively), Moonblast (if you make a mistake), Psyshock, Shadow ball and Hidden Power; and Clefable has all these moves (escept 117 BP Fairy Hyper Voice) + Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Thunder, Focus Blast, Psychic and Grass Knot. But remember that Hyper Voice + Shadow Ball + HP ground is a great offensive combot that Sylveon has. And note that Clefable still requires HP to fight Fire types (or in case of Magic Guard Clefable, Water Pulse, which no serious team uses)
And right now, we are returning to Unaware Clefable VS top set-up threads.
Azumarill: Only 1/3 of Clefable run belly Drum. For the other 2/3 both of them fair equally.
Mega Charizard X: Both of them loses against this thing.
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 252-297 (63.9 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 252-297 (63.9 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Thundurus. If Nasty Plot, oth loses. If not, Sylveon generally wins
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 149-177 (37.8 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 204-242 (51.7 - 61.4%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers
And back to thundurus
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 165-195 (55.1 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 118-141 (39.4 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Keldeo: It's more common isn't a set up one, and Clefable isn't guarantee to win. And Sylveon has a 50% chance of OHKO Keldeo (almost guarantte with SR) while Clefable can't OHKO back, even with SR.
Gyarados: more than 50% of Gyarados have Gyaradosite, and Mega Gyarados ignore Unaware.
Heracross: One of the few cases where Clefable has more chance of winning than Sylveon. Both do more than decently against this monsters of 515 Base Attack.
Lati@s. Syveon walls them even better and CM sets are relatively rare.
Pinsir: Clefale hasn'0t have nay chances to unboosted Pinsir.
Talonflame: Both of them losing against this thing.
Terrakion: Swords Dance isn't the most common set, and this Pokemon requires countering with special moves. And Clefable does better in this case.
Dragonite: Clefable is better to the Weakness Policy. Both of them are very good against DNite.
Garchomp: SD isn'0t the most common set.
Bisharp: Many of them run Pursuit and not SD. They are acting equally good or equally bad.
Scizor. One of the few cases where Clefable can win thanks to Unaware while Sylveon has no chance.
Tyranitar Only 20% of them are megas that are the ones who usually run DD and where Clefable is superior.
Diggersby: Both of them fall to unboosted Return in the long run.
Manaphy: One of thew special attacker who Clefable does better because Unware ignoring Tail Glow Boosts.
Other threads where Unaware plays a big part are Suicune, some Raikou, Scolipede, many lucario.
Pokemon that Clefable deals better if they have Flamethrower: Ferrothorn, some Excadrill (but still mainly loses if Iron Head), (Mega) Scizor, Skarmory, very few Jirachi and some Lucario.
Actually, Unaware plays a big part on only 9 pokemon in the top ranks (Mheracross, (M) Scizor, Manaphy, some Diggersby, some Tyranitar, Suicune, some Raikou, Scolipede and many Lucario.
But against many threats, unboosted Sylveon does better than standard Clefable against most physical attackers.
And you said: But Clefable has Calm Mind? And Sylveon has also Calm Mind, being viable to use the same set. And they have similar physical bulk, more similar thsn Unaware could think.
With this, I think that Sylveon is not that badly outclassed compared to Clefable. Also, it appears that Sylveon is more "easy"* to use than Clefable.
*The term "easy" is subjective, but there are pokemon that are more easy to use than others.
An example was Deoxys formes, which were (on the 1695 stats) in the 20s (Deoxys_S) and 30s (Deoxys-D) while other Pokemon like Ferrothorn and Skarmory were higher. Why? Because it's more easy to use than a suicide lead (also, event Pokemon are usually very rarely used, seethe cases of Mew, Manpahy and during a lot of time, Keldeo, which are more viale than the usage stats said).
As a fan of Nymphia (Sylveon), I will prove the effectivity of Sylveon and Clefable on pure bulk.
First, we are going to compare the stats of one and the other:
Nymphia - Clefable
HP: 95 - 95 (exactly the same)
Atk: 65 - 70 (Clefable used to run STAB Facade/STAB Double Edge/STAB Return in Gen IV and V; right now the Attack stat is relvant to both of them)
Def: 65 - 73 (Clefable has exactly 8 more base points in Defense than Sylveon. Yes, 8 points and not more)
SpA: 110 - 95 (Sylveon has 15 more base points of Special Attack than Clefable.)
SpD: 130 - 90 (Sylveon is way better as a special wall than Clefable)
Spe: 60 - 60 (In Speed tie, they aren't similar, they are identical (Also, because neither of the set uses Speed, they are speed tying)
Total: 525 - 483 (Sylveon has a better stat spread).
Abilities: Sylveon has Pixilate (allows Hyper Voice to be Fairy-type and have 117 BP) and Cute Charm. While Clefable has Magic Guard (inmune to almost any type of passive damage), Unaware (ignore stat boosts) and Cute Charm.
Main set of Clefable vs main set of Sylveon:
The main Unaware Clefable set is this:
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell
Exactly the same set than Sylveon.
In other words, to prove that Unaware Clefable is better to Sylveon, we have to proof the number of set-up sweepers in this metagame.
But before that, we got to the movepool. Where Clefable shines because Sylveon has Hyper Voice (only main thing that separates from Clefable offensively), Moonblast (if you make a mistake), Psyshock, Shadow ball and Hidden Power; and Clefable has all these moves (escept 117 BP Fairy Hyper Voice) + Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Thunder, Focus Blast, Psychic and Grass Knot. But remember that Hyper Voice + Shadow Ball + HP ground is a great offensive combot that Sylveon has. And note that Clefable still requires HP to fight Fire types (or in case of Magic Guard Clefable, Water Pulse, which no serious team uses)
And right now, we are returning to Unaware Clefable VS top set-up threads.
Azumarill: Only 1/3 of Clefable run belly Drum. For the other 2/3 both of them fair equally.
Mega Charizard X: Both of them loses against this thing.
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 252-297 (63.9 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 252-297 (63.9 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Thundurus. If Nasty Plot, oth loses. If not, Sylveon generally wins
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 149-177 (37.8 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 204-242 (51.7 - 61.4%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers
And back to thundurus
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 165-195 (55.1 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 118-141 (39.4 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Keldeo: It's more common isn't a set up one, and Clefable isn't guarantee to win. And Sylveon has a 50% chance of OHKO Keldeo (almost guarantte with SR) while Clefable can't OHKO back, even with SR.
Gyarados: more than 50% of Gyarados have Gyaradosite, and Mega Gyarados ignore Unaware.
Heracross: One of the few cases where Clefable has more chance of winning than Sylveon. Both do more than decently against this monsters of 515 Base Attack.
Lati@s. Syveon walls them even better and CM sets are relatively rare.
Pinsir: Clefale hasn'0t have nay chances to unboosted Pinsir.
Talonflame: Both of them losing against this thing.
Terrakion: Swords Dance isn't the most common set, and this Pokemon requires countering with special moves. And Clefable does better in this case.
Dragonite: Clefable is better to the Weakness Policy. Both of them are very good against DNite.
Garchomp: SD isn'0t the most common set.
Bisharp: Many of them run Pursuit and not SD. They are acting equally good or equally bad.
Scizor. One of the few cases where Clefable can win thanks to Unaware while Sylveon has no chance.
Tyranitar Only 20% of them are megas that are the ones who usually run DD and where Clefable is superior.
Diggersby: Both of them fall to unboosted Return in the long run.
Manaphy: One of thew special attacker who Clefable does better because Unware ignoring Tail Glow Boosts.
Other threads where Unaware plays a big part are Suicune, some Raikou, Scolipede, many lucario.
Pokemon that Clefable deals better if they have Flamethrower: Ferrothorn, some Excadrill (but still mainly loses if Iron Head), (Mega) Scizor, Skarmory, very few Jirachi and some Lucario.
Actually, Unaware plays a big part on only 9 pokemon in the top ranks (Mheracross, (M) Scizor, Manaphy, some Diggersby, some Tyranitar, Suicune, some Raikou, Scolipede and many Lucario.
But against many threats, unboosted Sylveon does better than standard Clefable against most physical attackers.
And you said: But Clefable has Calm Mind? And Sylveon has also Calm Mind, being viable to use the same set. And they have similar physical bulk, more similar thsn Unaware could think.
With this, I think that Sylveon is not that badly outclassed compared to Clefable. Also, it appears that Sylveon is more "easy"* to use than Clefable.
*The term "easy" is subjective, but there are pokemon that are more easy to use than others.
An example was Deoxys formes, which were (on the 1695 stats) in the 20s (Deoxys_S) and 30s (Deoxys-D) while other Pokemon like Ferrothorn and Skarmory were higher. Why? Because it's more easy to use than a suicide lead (also, event Pokemon are usually very rarely used, see Mew).
Sylveon wouldn't want to waste a slot on sr, and it doesn't need soft boiled because it bulky enough to handily rely on wish consistently unless coming across sokething that hit it SE. No one is arguing how great Clefable is, but in the realm of clerics I see Sylveon as a tad bit better, as it can be a very reliable wish passer and also has heal bell, while being a greater offensive presence.
And you are missing out on so many points in such a short sentence, don't know where to start.
First off: Stealth Rock doesn't matter at all. Sylveon is not supposed to set hazard, we are discussing how effective its Cleric- and Specs-set are. So Stealth Rock is absolutely irrelavant.
Second: Clefable is higher than Sylveon because of the amount of sets it can run. We are not argueing Sylveon to be A or A+, just B-, for 2 sets it can run. Clefable is A+ for 4 sets, obviously it is higher than Sylveon.
The comparison between Sylveon and Clefable is because of one set: Cleric. You have to concentrate on this set if you want to argue if Clefable outclasses Sylveon or not.
And now for the part in which I repeat myself:
Let us compare these two Pokemon.
1. Both are walled by Steel-types since there is no room for Flamethrower or HP Fire. The argument that Clefable outclasses Sylveon as a Cleric because of fire-coverage is straight up false. Except you really want Flamethrower instead of Moonblast, but Sylveon could run HP Fire instead of Hyper Voice too, so that doesn't make any sense at all.
2. Clefable has better abilities. This is what Clefable has over Sylveon. Unaware is a nice setup-check while Magic Guard prevents Clefable from the need to heal itself from status.
3. Sylveon has more offensive presence. Not something a Cleric HAS to have, but it is a nice bonus. Offensive presence is important in this metagame so it should never be overlooked.
4. Sylveon has way better bulk. Sylveon's special bulk surpasses Clefable's by far. It's physical bulk is only slightly weaker, so you could run a physical bulky Sylveon that is (almost) as bulky as Clefable while still being more bulky on the special side.
Question: Does Clefable outclass Sylveon as a Cleric?
Answer: No. They both fullfill different roles as Cleric. You use Clefable if you need a setup-check (Unaware) or you don't want to waste PP from Heal Bell on your Cleric itself (Magid Guard). You use Sylveon if you need a Cleric with more offensive presence (Hyper Voice) or if you need a really bulky Cleric.
And this leads to the other point I mentioned: Why using Sylveon, if you can use Chansey? Chansey is THE bulky Cleric. The answer: Offensive presence.
THAT is the reason it should move to B-. The niche over Clefable was never there so it is false to look at that. The niche for Sylveon as Cleric was the offensive presence which Chansey doesn't have! It never mattered much, but in the current metagame it can be very crucial to be passive. The metagame shifts towards Sylveon's niche as Cleric: very bulky while having an offensive presence!
i don't know what "sylveon wouldn't want to waste a slot on sr" means, halcyon was obviously saying sylveon doesn't have sr since offensive sr clefable is one of clefable's best sets which still does all the things sylveon and regular clefable does like checking lati@s, greninja, etc.
i don't know what "sylveon wouldn't want to waste a slot on sr" means, halcyon was obviously saying sylveon doesn't have sr since offensive sr clefable is one of clefable's best sets which still does all the things sylveon and regular clefable does like checking lati@s, greninja, etc.
I was referring to the cleric set and didn't specify that's on me. Of course any mon would love to have SR, I just meant she doesn't really have room for it.
i don't know what "sylveon wouldn't want to waste a slot on sr" means, halcyon was obviously saying sylveon doesn't have sr since offensive sr clefable is one of clefable's best sets which still does all the things sylveon and regular clefable does like checking lati@s, greninja, etc.
Clefable doesn't always have to be a cleric, the SR set is definitely good, the SR set is usually SR/Moonblast/Fire Blast/Soft-Boiled which is a decent bulky Rocks setter with decent offensive presence and good resilience. That said I have no common on this matter of Clefable vs. Sylveon, though there are definitely good reasons to use Sylveon though I'm not sure if that warrants a move-up, but I haven't used Sylv that much so I don't have a right to say much else on the matter lol. Though Clef is definitely versatile.
I think Sylveon's getting more hate than she deserves. Clefable's overall better than Sylveon, I'm not denying that, but Sylveon does have a few things over Clefable. First, Sylveon has significantly higher Special Defense, and only slightly less Defense, so she's better at taking on special attackers, including Landorus of all things. Second, Sylveon has much greater immediate power, not only due to a much higher Special Attack stat, but also because of Pixilate Hyper Voice, so she can threaten foes that Clefable would need a Calm Mind boost in advance for. And third, Clefable can't mimic the immediate wallbreaking prowess of Sylveon's Choice Specs, and has better things to do than being a full-on cleric, so Clefable doesn't outclass Sylveon at what she does best. Again, I know that Clefable is the better Pokemon at the end of the day, but Sylveon does have enough to be different from Clefable, even if it's just barely enough.
just saying the argument that sylveon has more offensive presence is bullshit because without flamethrower, teams have more free switch-ins to it thus negating this extra power.
just saying the argument that sylveon has more offensive presence is bullshit because without flamethrower, teams have more free switch-ins to it thus negating this extra power.
Saying a Cleric Clefable will have Flamethrower is also bullshit since it will have to give up Protect, Wish, and/or Moonblast to do so. It's kinda hard to Wish pass without Wish, keep your Wish passer alive without Protect, or threaten a lot without STAB.
Or you could give up Heal Bell/Aromatherapy, but then you're not a Cleric anymore.
So the argument is that sylveon doesn't have room for SR therefore it is good? What?
The thing is that Sylveon's cleric set doesn't provide anything over Clefable's many possible roles. I seriously can't think of a team where I would want Sylveon over Unaware Clefable as a cleric. It does have marginally better special bulk, but at the cost of physical bulk, meaning that it can't check some of the things that Clefable can. I genuinely don't have any idea what Sylveon does that Clefable can't do better besides have more offensive presence, which is apparently important for a cleric somehow? The point I'm trying to make in my last post is that Clefable has way more going for it than Sylveon, and outclasses it in every way I can think of. Bigger Wishes really don't matter, as they're still healing your mons over half, and Magic Guard/Unaware is more important on a cleric than Pixilate is.
Lemme put it this way, I would say Zapdos is more useful in general than Sylveon, and look at where Zapdos is.
So the argument is that sylveon doesn't have room for SR therefore it is good? What?
The thing is that Sylveon's cleric set doesn't provide anything over Clefable's many possible roles. I seriously can't think of a team where I would want Sylveon over Unaware Clefable as a cleric. It does have marginally better special bulk, but at the cost of physical bulk, meaning that it can't check some of the things that Clefable can. I genuinely don't have any idea what Sylveon does that Clefable can't do better besides have more offensive presence, which is apparently important for a cleric somehow? The point I'm trying to make in my last post is that Clefable has way more going for it than Sylveon, and outclasses it in every way I can think of. Bigger Wishes really don't matter, as they're still healing your mons over half, and Magic Guard/Unaware is more important on a cleric than Pixilate is.
Lemme put it this way, I would say Zapdos is more useful in general than Sylveon, and look at where Zapdos is.
I think you are completely misconstruing the point we are trying to make. We are saying that Stealth rocks take away from both mons usefulness as a cleric so it shouldn't be considered in the argument at all. We aren't arguing Clefable's usefulness due to it's many sets making it better than Sylveon. I agree overall it is a way better mon, but as a cleric it is just as useful if not more so on certain teams. What is Clefable checking that Sylveon isnt as a cleric?
I think you are completely misconstruing the point we are trying to make. We are saying that Stealth rocks take away from both mons usefulness as a cleric so it shouldn't be considered in the argument at all. We aren't arguing Clefable's usefulness due to it's many sets making it better than Sylveon. I agree overall it is a way better mon, but as a cleric it is just as useful if not more so on certain teams. What is Clefable checking that Sylveon isnt as a cleric?
So the argument is that sylveon doesn't have room for SR therefore it is good? What?
The thing is that Sylveon's cleric set doesn't provide anything over Clefable's many possible roles. I seriously can't think of a team where I would want Sylveon over Unaware Clefable as a cleric. It does have marginally better special bulk, but at the cost of physical bulk, meaning that it can't check some of the things that Clefable can. I genuinely don't have any idea what Sylveon does that Clefable can't do better besides have more offensive presence, which is apparently important for a cleric somehow? The point I'm trying to make in my last post is that Clefable has way more going for it than Sylveon, and outclasses it in every way I can think of. Bigger Wishes really don't matter, as they're still healing your mons over half, and Magic Guard/Unaware is more important on a cleric than Pixilate is.
Lemme put it this way, I would say Zapdos is more useful in general than Sylveon, and look at where Zapdos is.
I haven't been following this conversation, and I don't really want to look back at everything. But just to say, the one niche I can see for Sylveon's clerical set is that it can run phyiscal defense while still maintaining enough special bulk to beat Landorus, while Clefable cannot. I know that Clefable can just go specially defensive to beat Lando, but then it loses out on handling the physical stuff it needs to, like Psyshock Latios.
Calcs for reference:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 250-294 (63.4 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 40 SpD Sylveon: 175-208 (44.5 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
So I disagree with the notion that clerical Sylveon has no niche; you should use it over Clefable if your team is exceptionally Landorus weak. Otherwise, Clefable's better movepool + abilities make it in general more useful.
And also Joker8417, Clefable can check more stuff because of Unaware and Magic Guard. With these amazing abilities, it's able to check the Pokemon it and Sylveon check, but much more reliably, thanks to it either a) negating all stat boosts, or b) being impossible to wear down with Stealth Rock and status damage. Actually, now that I think about it, one Pokemon that Clefable can beat that Sylveon can't is Mega Heracross. However Clef doesn't have a 100% chance of beating it, so it isn't that worth mentioning. Basically, while Sylveon is much more powerful and more specially bulky, I think Clefable is a lot better than it as a cleric due to its ability to either a) ignore Pokemon who've set up, or b) ignore Stealth Rock and Toxic, which, when used at the right time, can prevent Sylveon from taking a certain hit. For example:
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Sylveon: 172-203 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Sylveon: 213-252 (54.1 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
This isn't the best example, because Cham is often Adamant, but it still shows how Sylveon's only adequate physical bulk can be easily ruined by passive damage, something Clefable doesn't have to worry about at all.
There's also stuff like setup mons like MegaTar, who blow right past Sylveon, but can't 2hko a full-health Clefable. Of course, Clefable cannot do both of these things at once. However, Sylveon cannot do either. It isn't bad as a cleric, it's just that the only reason I'd use it is to counter Landorus while using a defensive spread.
I haven't been following this conversation, and I don't really want to look back at everything. But just to say, the one niche I can see for Sylveon's clerical set is that it can run phyiscal defense while still maintaining enough special bulk to beat Landorus, while Clefable cannot. I know that Clefable can just go specially defensive to beat Lando, but then it loses out on handling the physical stuff it needs to, like Psyshock Latios.
Calcs for reference:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 250-294 (63.4 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 40 SpD Sylveon: 175-208 (44.5 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
So I disagree with the notion that clerical Sylveon has no niche; you should use it over Clefable if your team is exceptionally Landorus weak. Otherwise, Clefable's better movepool + abilities make it in general more useful.
And also Joker8417, Clefable can check more stuff because of Unaware and Magic Guard. With these amazing abilities, it's able to check the Pokemon it and Sylveon check, but much more reliably, thanks to it either a) negating all stat boosts, or b) being impossible to wear down with Stealth Rock and status damage. Actually, now that I think about it, one Pokemon that Clefable can beat that Sylveon can't is Mega Heracross. However Clef doesn't have a 100% chance of beating it, so it isn't that worth mentioning. Basically, while Sylveon is much more powerful and more specially bulky, I think Clefable is a lot better than it as a cleric due to its ability to either a) ignore Pokemon who've set up, or b) ignore Stealth Rock and Toxic, which, when used at the right time, can prevent Sylveon from taking a certain hit. For example:
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Sylveon: 172-203 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Sylveon: 213-252 (54.1 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
This isn't the best example, because Cham is often Adamant, but it still shows how Sylveon's only adequate physical bulk can be easily ruined by passive damage, something Clefable doesn't have to worry about at all.
There's also stuff like setup mons like MegaTar, who blow right past Sylveon, but can't 2hko a full-health Clefable. Of course, Clefable cannot do both of these things at once. However, Sylveon cannot do either. It isn't bad as a cleric, it's just that the only reason I'd use it is to counter Landorus while using a defensive spread.
I can understand the points you are making, but I still believe it doesn't necessarily make Clefable the better Cleric, but definitely worth using over Sylveon on the right teams. I also don't run the typical cleric set for sylveon and instead go full physical d, and I find it deals with medicham way better, it does however leave her more vulnerable to Lando-I. Most Lando-I's carry sludge wave from what I've seen anyway and I have other things to deal with it so it doesn't bother me so much.
