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i cannot stop you but if you carry down on this road, it will be her blood on your hands.
if anything, E-rank is the one that should be deleted imo, since mons there have even less of a use. failing that, just merge the two into Mantine-tier or something.
E-rank is there to show people what not to use, although the pokes are somewhat common (like pachi). Maybe rename it to something else like 'level-51 rank' or something.
Regarding amonguss: It is one of the best pokes in the tier, and what it brings along in metagame defining, a sleep check is vital on most teams, and thats the reason why it shouldn't go up; the meta is adapt to sleep spam. Sleep isnt what it used to be, amoongus cant guarantee eliminating at least two pokes from the game anymore, safety goggles are used a lot more, escavalier is getting more usage, mega gard too (more stuff like mega saur/sub on random shit as well). I honestly think its more likely going down than up, but its amazing at redirecting, works better with different pokes to togekiss, amazing bulk, directly threatening due to spore and bunny rampage (pls ban). Basically, spore spam is handled better, but its still a big threat.
For those who don't know, Mantine has access to wide guard and like 145 spdef . (I'm in class if the stats are wrong it's because this if top of my head) but yeah Mantine isn't a bad pokemon at all, just very niche
I'd like for Azumarill to rise to A Rank. Azumarill is a very fearsome bunny to face, with a sky-high attack thanks to Huge Power. It's 100/80/80 bulk is exceptional for an offensive Pokemon and it can use that to set up a Belly Drum, which boosts its attack all the way to 1744. Play Rough and Aqua Jet easily allow it to mow down even prepared teams, being able to OHKO numerous things with even a resisted Play Rough. Definitely a Pokemon deserving of A-rank.
bunny rampage
EDIT: wait there's more
Terrakion down to A Rank. It's good, don't get me wrong, and it's a good Chary check, but in a metagame filled with Intimidate, it's really starting to lose it's niche. Kangaskhan are starting to be EVd to survive Terrakion's attacks, it's demolished by Scarf Lando-T (one of the best Pokes in doubles), and common Pokemon take it's attacks with ease. Although it covers a lot of common threats and is very powerful, it doesn't deserve to share the same ranking with the best of the best, meta-defining Pokes.
DOUBLE EDIT: wait there's even more
Gothitelle to B rank because everyone was bitching about it last round and shadow tag is good af
I'd like for Azumarill to rise to A Rank. Azumarill is a very fearsome bunny to face, with a sky-high attack thanks to Huge Power. It's 100/80/80 bulk is exceptional for an offensive Pokemon and it can use that to set up a Belly Drum, which boosts its attack all the way to 1744. Play Rough and Aqua Jet easily allow it to mow down even prepared teams, being able to OHKO numerous things with even a resisted Play Rough. Definitely a Pokemon deserving of A-rank.
Terrakion down to A Rank. It's good, don't get me wrong, and it's a good Chary check, but in a metagame filled with Intimidate, it's really starting to lose it's niche. Kangaskhan are starting to be EVd to survive Terrakion's attacks, it's demolished by Scarf Lando-T (one of the best Pokes in doubles), and common Pokemon take it's attacks with ease. Although it covers a lot of common threats and is very powerful, it doesn't deserve to share the same ranking with the best of the best, meta-defining Pokes.
Are you srs.
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 408-484 (98.5 - 116.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
And fuck, we are not demoting mons because they lose to scarf landoge (which is essentially at least half of A rank and 2/3rd of S rank). Terrakion is still stellar at checking what it does as well as being strong as fuck. It also has neat options like quick guard/taunt. 108 is an excellent speed tier. And what common mons are you talking about might I ask? You realize it has near flawless coverage with just two moves right? In the entirely of A and S rank only around 5 mons can "comfortably" take its hits due to either stellar bulk (cresselia), godlike typings (landoge, aegis, amoong, rachi). So I really don't see the point that you're trying to make. All I really see is that it's checked by landoge, and my response is so what? The only physical attacker in the whole damn tier that doesn't give a shit about landoge is darmanitan and even that needs sun to ohko after intimidate.
The only physical attacker in the whole damn tier that doesn't give a shit about landoge is darmanitan and even that needs sun to ohko after intimidate.
Ive been dicking around with cobalion for a while, and it's p. cool. it's speed and defense are superb, which makes it good for outpacing stuff like chomp and chary.
volt switch is cool for momentum, while thunder wave can ruin the day for most things. helping hand and quick guard has nieces too.
and metal bursting a scarf lando is always piss-your-pants funny.
Ive been dicking around with cobalion for a while, and it's p. cool. it's speed and defense are superb, which makes it good for outpacing stuff like chomp and chary.
volt switch is cool for momentum, while thunder wave can ruin the day for most things. helping hand and quick guard has nieces too.
and metal bursting a scarf lando is always piss-your-pants funny.
Please don't nominate things for E-Rank. The whole point of the existence of E-Rank is to show people what **NOT** to use. That being said, no one should ever use Cobalion, so you have a point.
I support Amoonguss for S. Reiterating AuraRayquaza's points above, it has a lot of nifty resists and great bulk which lets it take quite a few hits, moreso if paired with Intimidate. The combination of Rage Powder and Spore means that, if it's not redirecting hits, it can put an opposing mon out of commission which at times can be key. This also means that it's not total set-up fodder for the oppenent. Regenerator is also pretty useful for its role as well, letting it gain HP easily just by switching and not be a momentum stop. The big reason for it's success, though, is that it's probably the most notorious check for TR. Since it's very slow, it can just put everything to sleep, burning crucial Trick Room turns, while being able to shrug off an ample amount of hits. Using it with TR is not unheard of either, and can put some pressure in by Sporing things while the partner deals with the other. Aside from, it can be a pretty good check to Rain, using its nifty resist to Water and Electric to shrug off the archetype's biggest shots and be hard to KO.
Srsly amoonguss is this big Taunt target and is almost useless offensively, it's also weak to many common attacks like Ice, Fire and Ground (Although it resists a bunch of cool things like Fighting and Electric). And it's frail-ish physical defense doesn't help. And the Grass nerf really hinders amoong (Spore/Rage Powder doesn't affect grass types now).
Yes, it is Taunt bait, but it is not meant to be an attacker with offensive presence. Rather, it is meant to make sure the partners don't take hits; being targeted by Taunt means that the opponent still does nothing to its partner, which is arguably a victory for it on its own, more so if something productive happens. Also, once Taunted it can just switch out and heal back HP so it doesn't lose out much either.
On your point of being weak to common attacking-types, yes it does have a weakness to those. But it's not the end of the world; Doubles is a dynaimic metagame and things can vary by situation. A Pokemon can't handle everything, but that's what partners are for (the partners it's supporting, might I add); For example, it can be used to support something such as Tyranitar and threaten out the things that threaten Amoong (Talonburd, Zard-Y, Kyu-B). Amoonguss does have type-weakness, but it doesn't stop it from doing its job of redirection. It can live some SE attacks if it has to, but only should do so if it's key. It can also just switch-out, again recovering from Regenerator.
252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Amoonguss: 306-362 (70.8 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 361-429 (83.5 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 289-343 (66.8 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Intimidate support needed but w/e)
252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Amoonguss: 278-330 (64.3 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (No reason to put Zard / Tran Heat Wave bc spread lol + Rotom-H often holds Gogs so I didn't bother)
On to your last few points, you're underrating Amoong's bulk; 114 / 70 isn't what I'd call physically frail. Its typing lends it to some cool resists + with some investment it can take a few attacks before going down, even more with Intimidate support which is always useful. Also, while the Grass-nerf means that it can't redirect / Spore Grasses anymore, this also works for it in that its Spores can't be redirected by other Grasses and that it can't be Spored / Sleep Powdered itself. This isn't a total loss either; while it can't do much to other Grass-types, they can't do back much either lol.
All in all, Amoong is a cool mon. It does have its cons, but imo the pros outweigh them which makes me believe that it should be S.
Minor things I care about:
Hydreigon to B+: Mostly because of things AuraRay said but missing out on 100 Base Speed land makes it prone to stuff like Keldeo, Terrakion, Kanga, etc.
Scrafty to B+: Really cool Intimidate + Fake Out combo, can put some minor presence offensively, and spams Knock Off. Scrafty also doesn't die quickly unlike Hitmontop, whose support options are becoming lackluster as of late. It's still cool tho.
Garchomp to A-: Even tho Chomp is a bae, there are things that hamper it. Intimidate and burns stop it. Plus, if I wanted something with EQ I'd first look at Landog, or if I wanted a fast Dragon I'd use Latios. Still, doing both + being above 100 Base Speed land is a cool niche.
I have to agree with Memoric and Aurarayquaza for supporting Amoonguss for S class. It has an amazing combination of resistances, defensive stats and abilities and the movepool to make use of those qualities. And it can thrive in multiple team archetypes, from Trick Room, Semi-Room, Rain and goodstuffs gives it a fair amount of range in which it can go to work. Another thing is that Roxer mentioned being weak to common types, but the thing about that is that common weaknesses are also countered all the fucking time. Unless you for some reason aren't making sure to counter Fire, Psychic or Ice types (all of which are so easy to cover for) when you're building a team, it shouldn't be hard to mitigate those weaknesses. As for flying, well the only common threat that uses flying type moves is Talonflame, so unless Mega Pinsir usage skyrockets or HP Flying Specs Deoxys A w/ a Helping Hand boost becomes new meta, it shouldn't be too bad. It still looks like ass though and I hate it.
You guys are overstating how good it is, and this from someone who uses amoonguss on almost every team he has. Its weaknesses are actually really crippling, mostly because the Pokemon that run those types tend to be fast. What this means is that Amoonguss has trouble doing suicide RPs. Imagine for example your opponent has a Latios and a Rotom-W. If you're using Amoonguss, you can't RP to protect a partner for a crucial turn because Latios will KO and Rotom will burn your partner. On the other hand, Togekiss CAN suicide FM to protect its partner because the Latios moves first. This happens way more often than I'd like it to. And Amoonguss isn't as good in Semi TR as it used to be—it's still good, yeah, but it's getting way harder for me to TR into sleep spam with my semi TR teams as everyone has either an amoonguss or a goggles or an escavalier, so i often don't even TR at all. and as a full TR check, well amoonguss is amazing, but full tr checks are not that valuable since full tr is rarely seen in tournaments at all.
Adding on to what Pwnemon said, it applies very weak offensive pressure and can be used for setup fodder. Pokemon like Heatran, Zard X, Talonflame, and Latios easily smashes Amoonguss with hardly any problems. Personally, I think Amoonguss gets worn down pretty quickly even with Regenerator as you take damage when you Rage Powder and when you Spore. Like Pwemon said the Pokemon that destroy Amoonguss are extremely fast so Amoonguss cannot do its job. I know it has lots of great qualities, but it falls short of S.
I second what Pwnemon said and especially what U-Turn Out said. The fact that Amoonguss loses a crapload of momentum against the mons he listed (as well as Sub Aegislash, Sub Cube, Sub anything) and that these are things few Pokemon particularly want to switch into makes it very hard to rate as S.
Clobbering Rain (sans Ludicolo) and poorly made Trick Room teams does not entirely overtake the fact that it can be total deadweight and sometimes even a liability. A+ is right.
Liked the stuff I agree with. Sensible people will leave Amoonguss in A+ so I will stop the chain of battering before someone starts saying it should be put in A tier
But yeah definitely A- for Gardevoir.
It's really limited by its low Defense stat and unamazing Speed. Hyper Voice is a powerful attack but a lot of teams are running extra defenses against Fairy-types, and almost any faster physical attacker can just OHKO it with a strong STAB move. Its typing just makes it even weaker to priority, and it is walled hard by Steel-types, of which almost every team has one. It has no specific and substantial niche besides spread spam, either, so despite its ability to do so, it is undistinguished in this metagame.
Okay since no one has nommed anything recently let's just do what we have. Yea no shrooms for S any time soon.
Hitmontop rising to B+.
Scrafty rising to B+.
Cresselia rising to A+.
Garchomp falling to A-.
Terrakion falling to A.
Gardevoir falling to A-.
Azumarill rising to A.
Hydreigon rising to A.
Hitmontop rising to B+. Yes, explained it in my post
Scrafty rising to B+. Yes, same as Hitmontop
Cresselia rising to A+. Yes, same as Hitmontop
Garchomp falling to A-. Yes, Intimidate / burn weak and a low BP STAB in DClaw make this surprisingly easy to deal with. Fuck Memoric's Lum SD Chomp tho ;;;
Terrakion falling to A. No lol, great Zard Y check and in general puts a TON of offense pressure on the opposing team.
Gardevoir falling to A-. Yeah, it's not as strong as the other mons in A due to low physical bulk, only ok Speed tier, and the fact that it takes up a Mega slot for something Sylveon does very effectively as well.
Azumarill rising to A. No. Belly Drum is kinda dependent on Amoo, hates burn, and hates apposing Amoongus a lot.
Hydreigon rising to A. Yes, great typing + Tailwind is awesome. A- when the time comes, though, as it's Speed is a little on the slow side.
Hitmontop up to B+. Yes, because of the combination of Intimidate, Fake Out, Wide Guard (among other utility moves) and being able to check threats like Kanga and Heatran are really really good traits.
Scrafty up to B+. Yes, basically the same as Hitmontop, though better vs Trick Room, and bulkier and a nifty psychic immunity to check Latios which Hitmontop can't do.
Cresselia up to A+. No, other stuff can do what it does but are better at those specific jobs, it's main redeeming quality is being able to reliably get up Trick Room is definitely worth something though, and it is good in a sort of "jack of all trades" roles.
Garchomp down to A-. Yes, I still love you though Chomp, even if you are an overall inferior Landorus-T. Dragon stab is cool and being able to check Fire, most Steel and a few Dragons is still cool.
Terrakion down to A. No, still good at doing what it's been doing.
Gardevoir down to A-. Abstain because denial :[
Azumarill up to A. Abstain. Needs only the smallest opportunity to set up and go to work, but a Will-O weakness and being cockblocked by Amoonguss has me on the fence.
Hydreigon up to A. No, great typing, tailwind, a Sucker Punch resist and coverage to beat certain threats like Rotom-W, Ferro and so on aren't necessarily enough to bounce up to A. Losing to fairies easily, other dragons (notably Latios, Garchomp and Mence) because of the shit speed tier, and fighting types like Terrakion and Keldeo keep it from A. That speed tier though...
