SiC(K) round 2: Birkal vs. smashlloyd20

Frosty

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Mirror Coat is a non-contact and Counter is a Contact. I don't care if SSB has woobuffet just wobbling. Do you really expect that the designer would complicate stuff for an item on a fighting game? SSBB has Rock Smash as a very powerful move, so should we boost its BAP here because of that? Hell no.

More than one person said no to that combo. Dogfish, me and Texas included. Hell, I haven't seen anyone say yes to it.

If you want to continue arguing, be my guest. But the clock is ticking. This decision won't get overturned and this match won't get an extension.
 

Birkal

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Combinations are inherently up for debate. That's kind of the point -- there is a large subjective based component to them; ASB has been like that since it's inception. I don't think it's unreasonable for me to find frustration in a referee making blanket statements that exist nowhere. To ignore all evidence with "you can't combine contact and non-contact moves" is a bit disappointing. There is no codification of such a rule, and people make wonky combinations all the time. Physical + Special / Offensive + Status / Different Types happens frequently.

In a case where subjectivity is required, of course I am going to bring outside sources into play. Smash Bros. games are generally reliable sources with large databases of information (trophies and stickers) and a part of its history. Of course I won't bring up Rock Smash; BAP is not up for debate. Combinations are, so of course I will debate it.

I'm not interested in threats on timing either. I'm here to play a good match, lol. I would like a reply from The Wanderer on the following counter-arguments to his decision. If he doesn't provide one, I'd like to request a sub-referee who is willing to respond to my points. If that isn't allowed, then I would like to take this to the council to get an official vote. Anyways, counter-arguments:

1) Deflection of physical and special attacks is identical in animation in Smash Bros.
2) Deflection of physical and special attacks for Wobbuffet is identical in the anime (read below).
3) I'd like some counter-argument of what in particular The Wanderer finds illegal about this combination besides blanket statements of codifications that don't exist.


Finally, I'm not interested in tacking names onto this. I can contact numerous people on IRC (Canis / tavok / Flamestrike / etc) who have stated previously that they could see this combination as viable. Moot point, really.

[00:24] <Canis_Majoris> seems real unfair wobba can't use counter + mirror coat when it's a very bad mon either way
[00:24] <Canis_Majoris> it's super susceptible to knock off + taunt
[00:25] <tavok> uuuh... I actually think it is viable
[00:25] <Canis_Majoris> (which pretty much most relatively good mons get)
[00:25] <tavok> beecause anime
[00:25] <Cube> Taunted Wobba = ;___;
[00:25] <Canis_Majoris> sableye is completely immune to wobba
[00:25] <%Birkal> if you guys have support to make, please post
[00:25] <Canis_Majoris> and so is spiritomb
[00:25] <%Birkal> I have a lot of trouble believing it is not a viable combo
[00:25] <%Birkal> for a lot of reasons
[00:25] <tavok> but I can see counter + mirror coat working
[00:26] <tavok> I mean, in the anime, when wobbu uses both, he does pretty much the same thing
[00:26] <Canis_Majoris> i can see it for wobba
[00:26] <Canis_Majoris> not anyone else
[00:26] <tavok> I think the only thing that changes is the color he glows?
[00:26] <Canis_Majoris> (because seriously, counter + mirror coat swampert)
[00:26] <Lad> (or Krillowatt, for that matter)
[00:26] <Canis_Majoris> (krill too right)
[00:26] <Avnomke> (Gastrodon)
[00:26] <Canis_Majoris> !search counter, mirror coat
[00:26] <TIBot> Squirtle, Wartortle, Blastoise, Wobbuffet, Smeargle, Mudkip, Marshtomp, Swampert, Wynaut, Deoxys, Shellos, Gastrodon
[00:26] <tavok> (why are we talking like this)
[00:27] <Avnomke> (I don't know)
[00:27] <&@dogfish44> Counter + Mirror Coat. One is a special attack, one is physical.
[00:27] <tavok> (wow, those are a ton)
[00:27] <Canis_Majoris> basically all of those
[00:27] <Lad> (Because I don't know)
[00:27] <Canis_Majoris> dogfish44 how does that have to do with anything
[00:27] <Canis_Majoris> razor leaf + magical leaf works
[00:27] <Canis_Majoris> pretty sure razor leaf + leaf storm can work
[00:27] <Lad> Counter is contact. Mirror coat is not.
[00:27] <&@dogfish44> RL+ML is one of the few ases that works
[00:27] <&@dogfish44> and what Lad said
[00:27] <tavok> so?
[00:27] <&@dogfish44> *few cases
[00:27] <Canis_Majoris> pretty sure we've had contact + non-contact before
[00:28] <tavok> the handbook doesn't say that contact and non contact doesn't work
[00:28] <tavok> it says they PROBABLY won't work
[00:28] <%Birkal> furthermore, people combine special / physical moves
[00:28] <%Birkal> people combine status / offensive moves
[00:28] <%Birkal> combos are inherently subjective
[00:28] <Canis_Majoris> Honestly Dogfish44
[00:28] <%Birkal> there is no blanket statement you can apply to this
[00:28] <tavok> also, has anyone really used knock off + taunt? .-. or was that just two actions
[00:28] <%Birkal> he meant the moves
[00:28] <Canis_Majoris> If Counter + Mirror Coat can't be viable (even if just for Wobba)
[00:28] <%Birkal> not the combo lol
[00:28] <Canis_Majoris> Then neither can Taunt + Snarl ever.
[00:28] <tavok> oh, ok
[00:28] <Avnomke> as in it's weak to Knock Off followed by Taunt
[00:29] <tavok> o-k
[00:29] <tavok> just making sure
[00:29] <tavok> just look for that chapter where team rocket learns the difference between counter and mirror coat
[00:29] <Canis_Majoris> What was that quote that was around
[00:29] <Canis_Majoris> Did they ban crits in competitive yet
[00:29] <tavok> both attacks are used that chapter, and they look pretty much the same iirc
[00:29] <Canis_Majoris> and also all forms of luck
[00:29] <Canis_Majoris> and also fun
[00:29] <tavok> just different colors, I think
[00:30] <Avnomke> that was red
[00:31] <Canis_Majoris> Honestly, I wouldn't care as much if the mon in question was any other mon (that wasn't Smeargle)
[00:31] <Canis_Majoris> since most mons with counter + mirror coat are respectable in their own right (and both blastoise and swampert get bide)
[00:31] <Canis_Majoris> but it's freaking wobba
[00:31] <Canis_Majoris> who doesn't get /any/ sort of damage
[00:32] <&@dogfish44> Physical Contact + Special Non-Contact really need justification (Ask on IRC, that's enough to at least warrant a re-order) or precedent (Anime usage of Aqua Jet + Ice Beam or ASB usage, which at very least warrants a reorder) :\
[00:32] <&@dogfish44> AJ + IC has anime precedent... which I hate :|
 

Its_A_Random

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I am going to step in here since it is pretty evident this is not going to be done with soon enough without intervention and that this needs to get going.

If the referee does not feel it is viable then it is not viable. Referee discretion. They are expected to not be a dick or partial towards one of the players about it and I think The Wanderer is certainly not being a dick here and I also feel that he is being quite impartial here as well. He does not have to give much reasoning as to why. The burden of proof lies on you Birkal, to convince the referee and you have not convinced the referee to accept it. As simple as that.

The above log proves absolutely nothing and basically surmounts to "he said she said" with regards to that combination, especially given that the only relevant voice with regards to a combination working or not is the referee. If you tried conversing with the referee before you ordered, things might have gone differently.

What happens on Super Smash Bros. is irrelevant because ASB does not draw any precedent from it, nor does ASB recognise it as a source of precedent in any way, shape or form.

Anime you might have a case but it was not strong enough in this case, especially with somewhat contradictory evidence from the actual move descriptions relative to the anime portrayals (A charge towards the opponent for Counter, a pulsing the opponent for Mirror Coat... ummm... uhhh... yeah idk). Personally I am torn on the feasibility of the combo but what I think is irrelevant in this situation.

But yeah. You decided to use a combination that was universally dubious to begin with at best and alas, the referee was not convinced. As a result, he refereed it as not working and that is that. The fact that you are willing to request a sub-referee because you do not feel like the referee provided "good enough evidence", or even get the council to decide on another ruling related to this match really rings the alarm bells and I am not going to take it. That and it is a very dangerous precedent to set (The sub-referee thing that is).

Plus Frosty has ruled that it is not getting overturned. There are no two ways about it. There will be no re-orders from that round. There will be no council intervention that involves the dragging out of a match just because one user cannot take that a dubious combination was refereed as not working, nor will there be a change in referee (over this anyway). I do not care what anyone thinks here at this point. I hate to take a tough stance on this but something needs to be done. I am not trying to be offensive or discriminative but I am just saying it as it is; A dubious combination was ordered and it was not considered to be feasible.

That is all. Please carry on with the match as normal.

EDIT: I agree that The Wanderer could have provided a better reasoning but yeah. Nothing is going to change.
 
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Popping in to note that this match is the biggest policy mess I've seen in years.

Also Birkal I do want to finish this match fairly, let's not have time run out :D
 
Well, that was an utter disaster.

Prizes:

Birkal:
Nothing :(

smashlloyd20:
+2 CC
+5 UC

The Wanderer:
+6 UC

And the following players get CC:
Birkal (Possibly, I'm not sure if it applies thanks to the DQ): 8 CC
Elevator Music: 2 CC
Pwnemon: 2 CC
Texas Cloverleaf: 2 CC
Zarator: 2 CC

Thanks for playing, guys.​
 

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