Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

[WideTomato]

Just some random thoughts for stoutland... It is not as good as exca, but it does have coverage moves that can be used, and it has one thing exca could never do in ou, it can be used on a team including excadrill. It is just the same reason staraptor is so good (with talon)

I mean, nobudy say that you should limit yourself to one sand rush sweeper, and besides exca, stoutland might just be the best one. It also have nice coverage that lets it beat or significantly weaken excas counters, such as ice fang for Lando, fire fang for Ferro and wild charge for azumarill. Also double egde does nice against rotom.

I'll do the actual nomination. Stoutland unranked -> D

 

[Karxrida]

Stoutland is not worth ranking. A lack of resistance to priority, requiring a Choice Band and Sand to do anything, and not being immune to Thunder Wave make it extremely easy to deal with for all playstyles. Running Stoutland over Excadrill is just asking to lose on top of making your opponent lose any respect for you.

 

[PlatypusPrincess]

Not being weak to Aqua Jet <<< Resisting Brave Bird, Aerilate Quick Attack, Bullet Punch, and immunity to Prankster Thunder Wave

Definition of D-Rank

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.

True. However, you have to agree that it can do something Excadrill can't do. Yes, Excadrills qualities are way better, but Stoutland still has this small thing going for itself. I guess thats what the D-Rank is for. For bad or outclassed Pokemon that yet manages to seperate themselfes from the others. Stoutland manages to beat things Excadrill can't and it can work. This alone is enought for a D-Rank. It's still worse and I wouldn't recommend running this over Excadrill.

 

[Celticpride]

Stoutland is not worth ranking. A lack of resistance to priority, requiring a Choice Band and Sand to do anything, and not being immune to Thunder Wave make it extremely easy to deal with for all playstyles. Running Stoutland over Excadrill is just asking to lose on top of making your opponent lose any respect for you.

I'm not sure the argument is less that it replaces Exca on Sand teams, but that it can be used in addition to it on those teams.

 

[Sevifar]

I think the final nail in Stoutland's coffin is the limited sand turns you get, since you won't want to waste them on anything other than Excadrill.

 

[Karxrida]

Definition of D-Rank

True. However, you have to agree that it can do something Excadrill can't do. Yes, Excadrills qualities are way better, but Stoutland still has this small thing going for itself. I guess thats what the D-Rank is for. For bad or outclassed Pokemon that yet manages to seperate themselfes from the others. Stoutland manages to beat things Excadrill can't and it can work. This alone is enought for a D-Rank. It's still worse and I wouldn't recommend running this over Excadrill.

"It's not weak to Aqua Jet" is not enough of a reason to use something that is completely outclassed and easy for the opponent to take advantage of since you need to be Banded to hurt anything.

 

[PlatypusPrincess]

"It's not weak to Aqua Jet" is not enough of a reason to use something that is completely outclassed and easy for the opponent to take advantage of since you need to be Banded to hurt anything.

1. It's not weak to Aqua Jet is no reason to use Stoutland over Excadrill. It can't be revenge killed by a Top Tier threat where it's better counterpart is revenge killed is one. A tiny tiny reason, but a reason.

2. Having a move with a base power of 102 not counting Stab coming off from a Base Attack of 110 is not the definition of "you need Choice Band".


Anyway, we've got Blissey in D-Rank and it is also almost always outclassed by Chansey, so it would be fair for Stoutland to be in the D-Rank.

 

[kabbes]

... Which is why Blissey shouldn't be D rank

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

While Stoutland is arguably much worse than Sand Rush Excadrill outside of sand, the main reason I think it doesn't need to be ranked is Sand Rush's distribution. There are only 3 fully evolved Sand Rush Pokemon: Excadrill, Stoutland, and Sandslash. Obviously you're going to pick Excadrill first since he's the fastest and the strongest while also having Rapid Spin, which means if you desperately need a second Sand Rush user, you only have 2 fully evolved choices. Sandslash has almost the same coverage as Excadrill while being slower than Stoutland with less attack, which means that Stoutland would be the obvious choice after Excadrill. So, given that the need for a second Sand Rush user seems pretty rare and given that Stoutland's only merit is that he's better than Sandslash, is it really necessary to rank him when his only niche is "1 of 3 relevant Sand Rushers"? At least Seismitoad has the niche of "physical Swift Swimmer immune to Thunder Wave", which is more specific and relevant than just being a Swift Swimmer (otherwise we'd have like 9-13 more Swift Swimmers to add to D-Rank).

 

[Jaroda]

Still, it isn't uncommon at all to have more than one Swift Swim users on a Rain team, and often while one is usually superior, the second one has a niche that compliments the team. That's why Seismetoad got ranked to D and got an analysis, because it's the only SS user immune to Electric and Thunder Wave.

In such a sense, Stoutland can, and should only, be used in tandem with Excadrill on a sand team, because Stoutland's coverage is entirely different from Excadrill. Ice Fang takes out Gliscor and Landorus that Excadrill struggles with. Play Rough demolishes the Latis and is a good move for Mega Heracross. Superpower has a 43% chance to OHKO Chansey after Rocks and Sand, and is great for Ferrothorn and hitting Scizor on the switch if it predicts Return. And then there's Wild Charge to nail all those bulky waters and even Skarmory.

It in this complementary capacity, where sand is a prominent playstyle, I really don't see a reason why Stoutland wouldn't qualify for D, which is more than generous.

 

[RotomPoison]

Except Life Orb Excadrill is stronger, faster, has a better STAB, and the ability to change moves compared to CB Stoutland. It wasn't even good last gen and it's useless now with Excadrill in OU

 

[WideTomato]

Except Life Orb Excadrill is stronger, faster, has a better STAB, and the ability to change moves compared to CB Stoutland. It wasn't even good last gen and it's useless now with Excadrill in OU

No one says it outclasses excacrill, but it have some uses, + it can be used alongside n_n

 

[RotomPoison]

No one says it outclasses excacrill, but it have some uses, + it can be used alongside n_n

Can it really? Sand teams would rather have another Pokemon wear down Rotom and Landorus, it's not exactly like Birdspam. Even if this was true, it adds no real synergy. It doesn't stop Mega Heracross, it doesn't singlehandedly beat Gliscor just because of Ice Fang. I would rather use those 5/8 turns for Excadrill anyway, Stoutland just isn't worth using. At least Sandslash can sort of check Heracross/Knock Off whatever

 

[Alfalfa]

... Which is why Blissey shouldn't be D rank

Yeah, I agree on deranking Blissey. Like, Chansey is substantially bulkier. You could say it gets worn down at a slower rate, is less prone to Knock Off, and has a usable base Special Attack, but it is ultimately not worth it. Blissey D -> Unranked.

 

[Karxrida]

1. It's not weak to Aqua Jet is no reason to use Stoutland over Excadrill. It can't be revenge killed by a Top Tier threat where it's better counterpart is revenge killed is one. A tiny tiny reason, but a reason.

2. Having a move with a base power of 102 not counting Stab coming off from a Base Attack of 110 is not the definition of "you need Choice Band".


Anyway, we've got Blissey in D-Rank and it is also almost always outclassed by Chansey, so it would be fair for Stoutland to be in the D-Rank.

1.) Okay, so you're not weak to Aqua Jet, but you're now revenged by Talonflame, Dragonite, and Thundurus. Trading 1 priority weakness for 2 neutralities and a T-Wave weakness doesn't sound like a good deal.

2.) Your STAB attack is still weaker unless you run a Choice Band and not nearly as good since it has no coverage. Meanwhile your coverage options like the Fangs are all weak even with a x4 multiplier and you don't have access to EdgeQuake. Excadrill's Earthquake is the strongest in the tier and has a secondary STAB + Rock Slide to hit just about everything immune to it for neutral damage.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

It's really unfortunate, but the problem with Stoutland is that it's hard to justify using it over Excadrill thanks to the latter having a greater Attack stat and a more frightening STAB to have in EQ and even Iron Head. Stoutland does have nice coverage with Superpower (are you guys seriously forgetting about this lol), Crunch, and Wild Charge, but that still basically pales in comparison to Excadrill's access to QuakeSlide Coverage and Rapid Spin, the latter of which allows Excadrill to provide some form of support to its team. They're both weak to Mach Punch, and both are relatively penetrable to Sucker Punch and other priority as well. Excadrill is immune to Prankster T-Wave from Thundurus and Klefki as well as Flying priority from Talonflame and Mega Pinsir, so it has an easier time actually getting a sweep off then Stoutland. Stoutland on its own isn't a bad Pokemon, seeing as how it has nice coverage with Superpower, Return, Crunch, and Wild Charge, plus nice bulk which makes it quite decent in sand, but with the nerf to Sand, which inhibits Stoutland's ability to sweep, as well as Excadrill being around, it's kind of hard to justify using Stoutland at all. If Excadrill somehow winds up getting banned to Uber again, Stoutland might be D worthy at least, but for now, it's just too hard to justify using it.

That said, there are a few things that are incorrect about Stoutland in this thread, Stoutland's coverage is not limited to the Fangs, and Stoutland was very good last gen as it was a great revenge killer on Sand teams, a lot of Hippo+Stoutland teams sprung up in BW2 and it was a relatively popular choice for a team back then.

I also agree that Blissey should be taken off the list seeing as how it's a completely inferior Chansey, get rid of that thing (and why does it still have an analysis lol).

 

[Thunderorange]

It doesnt realy matter if we move Sylveon up tbh, C+/B- at the end of the day it doesnt realy matter since both ranks are fine for it. I often find myself tempted to put Sylveon on one of my teams as a part of a defensive core cuz it beats just so much shit in this meta its unreal, AV Azu (takes a while but works), Thundy, non Sludgewave Lando-I, Kyurem-B, all 3 wall breakers, Greninja, Keldeo, Latis, every Dragon bar Zard X and more (note: it doesnt counter all of them, to some its only a check). When dismissing Healbell for HP Fire it can even dent most steel types bar Heatran. However, it has a major drawback and thats the reliance on Wish + Protect to heal. It totaly kills any momentum you might have if you switch it into something it wants to wall because you need 2+ turns to heal back up giving the opponent room to do what he wants. At the end of the day its high risk/high reward. It used to be B rank a few weeks ago and imo that was the maximum for it C+/B- is realy just a matter of preference.

If by three wallbreakers you mean the three wallbreaker megas you are wrong.

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sylveon: 250-294 (63.4 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sylveon: 307-363 (77.9 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Sylveon can't switch in to Mega Medicham at all. That's not a counter or a check. Even if it switches into a fake out it puts sylveon within range of being killed by a zen headbutt. Even if the sylveon is max defence with a defence boosting nature it is still 2HKOed by zen headbutt and takes a minimum of 42.1% from a high jump kick.

Gardevoir also wins 1v1 if it's the calm mind set and it sets up while sylveon is protecting to get a wish. Sylveon is closer to a Mega Gardevoir check but it still isn't.

Mega Heracross is also a pokemon which sylveon is unable to switch into even unboosted. If it's boosted sylveon is dead.

252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sylveon: 210-245 (53.2 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sylveon: 280-330 (71 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sylveon: 415-490 (105.3 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And even if it's max defence bold:
+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 370-440 (93.9 - 111.6%) -- approx. 87.5% chance to OHKO

So sylveon counters or checks none of these (except gardevoir in some situations). I'm not saying sylveon isn't worthy of a raise. Quite the opposite. But saying that it counters or checks things it doesn't is not a good point for it to be raised. In a later post I will actually nominate something.

 

[AM]

Are we really trying to rank Stoutland now? Are we really that bored that this became a legitimate conversation? Lol, ok then. I agree with deranking Blissey btw. I'm pretty positive no one actually uses it for its very small niche of handling Lando-I better and not an over dependency with eviolite. It's really not worth warranting a team slot when you have Chansey and so much more useful stuff in the tier.

 

[KMizfit_PE]

Are we really trying to rank Stoutland now? Are we really that bored that this became a legitimate conversation? Lol, ok then. I agree with deranking Blissey btw. I'm pretty positive no one actually uses it for its very small niche of handling Lando-I better and not an over dependency with eviolite. It's really not worth warranting a team slot when you have Chansey and so much more useful stuff in the tier.

Blissey in fact should be deranked. What does it do that Eviolite Chansey does not do? Besides being able to deal with Knock Off better than Chansey, there isn't much of a need to have Blissey even be a viable pokemon in the Meta.
Blissey D-Rank -> Unranked

 

[Alfalfa]

I nominated Blissey for D, but I would like to make two other nominations: Zapdos down to C+, and Wobbuffet to rise to C+. Zapdos is only good at checking Mega Pinsir and Mega Scizor, and nothing else. It isn't even a good birdspam check because Talonflame can simply just hit it with Flare Blitz (even Jolly Band 2HKOs after Stealth Rock), and it is a bad Defogger because it is weak to Stealth Rock. However, it does have a niche over Skarmory of being able to check Mega Pinsir without needing to run Shed Shell so it is not trapped by Magnezone, which is a niche worth using helpful for teams that are really weak to Pinsir. However, Zapdos is still really bad, and It definitely should drop it down to C+ rank. I definitely do not consider it to be in league with Omastar, Cresselia, and Conkeldurr.

I do not see Wobbuffet as being C Rank material. It is not even bad, nor is it outclassed by Gothitelle, as Wobb traps a completely different set of Pokemon. It is really good at trapping a lot of Pokemon that offensive teams may have troubles with, such as Excadrill, Mega Medicham, etc. Being able to trap Excadrill in particular is huge, since Sand Offense is a common strategy, though it has died down a little bit in usage. Obviously Wobb is not perfect, but I feel it pulls its weight better than some Pokemon in C+ Rank, such as Infernape and Togekiss, and it is definitely not in the same league as Thundurus-T, Volcarona, and Porygon2 (Empoleon and Doublade should probably go up too, but I have little knowledge on them, so I cannot make the best argument). I personally think Wobb could possibly go higher, but I will leave that for another day. Wobb should definitely rise to C+ Rank.

 

[Klobb]

Yeah Blissey might be better off being unranked. It can run flamethrower for Ferrothorn or ice beam for Gliscor, but with her lesser bulk she will fare less well against many Pokemon Chansey would normally be fine against. The only real reason to use Blissey over Chansey is if you want shed shell, which is a useless item against teams without a trapper and no leftovers means you lose even more bulk.

Oh and I guess another use of Blissey is being able to use it alongside Chansey, but then your team would suck. It should just be unranked.

 

[totoTavros]

iirc, Blissey has a nice niche of being a good Lando-I counter...

 

[dinotrek27]

iirc, Blissey has a nice niche of being a good Lando-I counter...

That is still fairly passive, still hurt a lot by common partners like Bisharp unless you hit it on the switch with fire blast in sun(Y Zard Teams) , and generally outclassed by CBBNite, SDef Gliscor, Sylveon and the Lati Twins. However, I think what separates Blissey from Chansey is its item more so than special attack. The ability to hold Leftovers really helps out a lot in recovering off passive damage and giving yourself an option against volt turn teams. In the event of Knock off, which is so prevalent in the current meta, Blissey suffers much less compared to Chansey and still maintains decent physical as well as insanely special bulk compared to an itemless Chansey. Further more, a higher hp stat helps it to pass slightly larger wishes although admittedly that ain't much. So in conclusion, Blissey doesn't have much, but has just enough to separate in from Chansey, being harder to wear down through volt turn, and not fearing knock off, and maybe a slight offensive presence.

 

[MagikaripIsOP]

even with leftovers, chansey is left with more effective hp

 

[trc]

so blissey basically has one niche in that it counters four attacks lando-i regardless of what those four attacks happen to be, as well as the mentioned stuff of being able to hit gliscor the "counter" with ice beam as well as the fact that it can stall out 2hkoes with its protect + leftovers. now i like blissey and even wrote its analysis but in this metagame landorus is nowhere near the stallbreaking threat it used to be, blissey loses to calm mind landorus anyway, and the rise of spdef gliscor means that ice beam isn't even the biggest of deals especially with a faster roost weakening ice beam even more. i know it has a niche but that niche has been challenged so much that i would support its deranking.

as for stoutland, it's basically a weaker excadrill that isn't weak to aqua jet yet is forced to run choice band and can't even sweep due to its inability to switch moves (lo stoutland is really weak). to be honest there is literally nothing worthwhile about this, it was honestly great in bw ou but it is terrible in xy ou, and it shouldn't be used as a replacement to excadrill for the minor niche it poses. i get maybe using them both together with a reliable sand setter (ie: hippowdon) but it gets walled by a ton and honestly excadrill can do the job well enough.