Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

[DoABarrelRoll]

Blissey really can't run an offensive move easily. Seismic Toss is a must, because otherwise your useless. So what are you going to run?

Seismic toss
Ice Beam/Fire Blast
Protect
Wish

You can Wish Pass sure, however you lose the ability to run Heal Bell or TWave for additional support. Or, run Soft Boiled to condence the Healing to one slot, but then you can't pass Wishes. Running offensive moves on Bliss leads itself to 4mss.

Who is to say Seismic Toss is a must on Bliss? She can run two special attacks to further differentiate herself from Chansey, with Ice Beam and Flamethrower recommended as these attacks allow Blissey to scare many things that would set up on her: Ferrothorn, Gliscor, Lando-I, Excadrill, Mega Scizor and Dragonite, something Chansey dreams of doing. Bliss can use Thunder Wave if you're afraid of her becoming setup fodder for Azumarill, Zard X and Mega Gardy, and I don't need to explain the use of Softboiled.

 

[kabbes]

I agree with Ferro to A. It's impossibly annoying to face for 90% of the meta and straight up set-up fodder for the other 10%. It can stop you losing but it can also make you lose. These days, you never know what's running fuggin fire coverage either. You think you've made a clever switch in and... you're dead.

I used to find it impossible to make a team without it, now I avoid it like the plague. Better players than me can probably anticipate its problems better, but I find it a straight up liability. Frankly, Amoongus fills the grass wall role so much better, and the mushroom has straight replaced the durian in my teams as a consequence. I miss the rocks and spikes though, I will admit.

 

[WideTomato]

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it

Alright lets look at this, is blissey viable in the OU metagame? Yes, have the highest hp and great spedeff, meaning its almost unbreakable on the special side, nobody can argue that it is not usable, and a great special wall.

Have no real niche: it have something over chansey, already said by myself and other as well, not going to say it again...

Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws: well, not really it does not have any real crippling flaws that chansey does not, tbh

and are often severely outclassed because of it: well, it IS outclassed by chansey, but that is acceptable in D-rank and it does have some niches over chansey that can justify its use.

 

[kabbes]

You forgot "...to justify their use on select teams."

Which are these teams that would justifiably pick Blissey? What specifically do they look like? Who is in them?

 

[Of Moose & Men]

See the problem with breaking it down like that to justify ranking Blissey is the reason some of the ranks are inflated. By doing so, that'd mean that Lopunny should be ranked D. She has one role, and one role only in OU. Nothing even outclasses it, and it has the ability to shut down things that would other wise hurt your team. Does that mean we should rank it? Of course not. So let's not try to get too deep into this.

 

[Andrew]

I support crawdaunt moving up to B (edit, B-), he's just ridiculously powerful like AM said, and can put a stop to sand teams' excadrill with his priority aqua jet. Knock off 2hko's Venusaur? if you get a swords dance stall teams can be demolished. of course he's very frail and not very fast, but luckily people are going to be switching out of him and you can bop the switch in for huge damage, plus aqua jet remedies his speed somewhat if the opposing team doesn't have rotom-w or talonflame.

I also think Victini could be argued for a rise to A-. Two sets - the stalltini set made by Monte Cristo with Taunt/wisp/vcreat/bolt strike, and the wall breaker set posted by alexwolf in the VR creative sets thread - sub/vcreate/bolt strike/PuP are very effective. First off victini is a great stop to Mega Gardevoir, resisting all her common attacks except hp ground and KO's her back with Vcreate. Secondly, Victini behind a sub with a +1 from PuP is a very scary thing to face, and not a lot of people expect it either (yet). The taunt wisp set is also quite bulky, especially after a will-o-wisp, while still retaining the power of adamant fully invested Vcreate and BoltStrike. Keldeo, Sand rush excadrill, scarf lando-t, chomp, and the latis are kind of annoying for Victini, but that's what team mates are for right? I can definitely see Victini on par with some of the other A- mons, so what do you guys think?

 

[MilkyWay]

Im not really sure where i stand on the Stoutland thing, but by reading the arguements people are getting it all wrong. Stoutland's niche is as a sand rusher who is used in tandem with Excadrill, not over Excadrill. Secondly, people say "why waste precious sand turns on Stoutland when you could use Excadrill?" To answer this question im going to compare dedicated sand rush teams to swift swim teams. When rain is up, why send in Omastar when you have Kingdra? Why waste the turns on Omastar? (Lets pretend Kingdra is much better than Omastar than it really is for the sake of this arguement) The answer is because Omastar can come in, break down walls for Kingdra, and stay in to sack itself rather than switch out because you have two swift swimmers. Or you could even have Kingdra break down walls for Omastar depending on the situation. The same concept applies to Stoutland and Excadrill. They are both checked by Lando-T, Gliscor, Rotom-Wash, Defensive Mega Scizor, Skarmory, and shit that can take a hit and ko back. Stoutland can lure in and weaken a lot of these guys with Ice Fang, Fire Fang, Wild Charge, and Return to make it easier for Excadrill. On the flip side, Excadrill could put a dent in a lot of these guys to help out Stoutland. This is Stoutland's true niche. Stoutland also gets nifty moves such as Superpower, Crunch (for Mew), Pursuit (if youre using Tyranitar with Excadrill and Stoutland youre even crazier than using Excadrill and Stoutland in general) and the other moves I mentioned. Finally, as many people have pointed out, Stoutland isnt revenged by Azumarill like Excadrill is. However, Excadrill isnt screwed by Thundurus like Stoutland is. If you ask me, having two sweepers who can each stand up to the two best offensive pokemon together is pretty cool. Excadrill isnt stopped by Birdspam either and Stoutland can take a hit if it's absolutely necessary. After typing this all up, I honestly think Stoutland probably deserves D, especially when you look at all the other shit in there (besides Blissey who should be unranked). It's kinda in the same boat as Seismitoad, but Seismitoad faces even more competition from Swift Swimmers and offsets that with an important niche for rain teams. It seems like it might be too late to convince everyone that Stoutland deserves D because the bandwagon effect has already taken place, (due to a bunch of idiots trying to say Stoutland is better than Excadrill) but please read my post first. Finally, to the people who say Stoutland is weak because it cannot OHKO 4x weak pokemon with the elemental fangs, that doesnt make Stoutland weak, it means that the base powers of the moves are weak. Stoutland has a base 110 attack with a base 102 STAB (despite being Normal type and having poor coverage) and can freely run an Adamant nature and an item while having decent coverage moves. If you want to call Stoutland "weak" you mine as well call Azumarill and Thundurus "weak" as well.

Calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 256-303 (82.3 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Wild Charge vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 346-408 (100.2 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Standard Assault Vest)

252+ Atk Life Orb Stoutland Wild Charge vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 302-356 (87.5 - 103.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 164-194 (49.1 - 58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Stoutland Wild Charge vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 406-478 (115 - 135.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(Bulky Dragon Dance)

252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Ice Fang vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 344-408 (97.7 - 115.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Specially Defensive Gliscor)

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 304-360 (95.2 - 112.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Stoutland Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 187-224 (48.9 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Stoutland Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 221-263 (54.7 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Standard Mew)

252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 174-205 (57.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 211-250 (54.9 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Apparently this is the standard Zapdos spread?)

252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 364-430 (94.5 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Air Balloon Heatran)


[\hide]

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

still no decision on salamence? jeez. well anyways, its better than people give it credit for, yes, it is kinda outdone by garchomp for scarf, but it has better cleaning capabilities. the meta has also kind of shifted in its favor because its best teammate, magnezone, is rly fucking good. also, heres a replay showing what it can do:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-160525110
(that was a naughty mence, thats how it got the kill on mag at +1)
and in c-, we have haxorus, a similarly niche dragon. mence -> c-


also

stoutland is trash, it will never be ranked.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Alright. I think it is made pretty DAMN clear that there is zero reason to run ANY offensive moves on Blissey. It's offenses is so pathetic that even Gible is better than it. Blissey shouldn't have any offensive moves other than Seismic Toss and even then it is pretty shit useless. Completely outclassed by Chansey in all manner except for being less Knock Off weak (Doesn't make it NOT knock off weak.) hence let's just conclude that it will not raise a rank or it should be deranked. In this case, I am voting for DERANK Blissey.

Blissey DOES have reasons to use offensive moves lol... that's the biggest reason why would you use her over Chansey. Blissey can even afford to invest into her special attack to guarantee 2HKOes on Ferrothorn and OHKOes on Gliscor and Lando-T. Also lol Gible. Gible's attack is 70 and Blissey's is 75, and Gible doesn't have coverage options.

On Stoutland: Alongside Excadrill it has the potential to clean up if Exca dies and sand is still up. CB Return hits like hell even with its only decent 110 attack. I guess Stoutland can be placed in D, as otherwise it really has no reason to be used over Excadrill, and is way too weak to priority.

 

[Srn]

Mega Aggron is quite a curious case as it has unreal amount of physical bulk and decent enough offensive presence (140 base attack) but it lacks recovery. It has access to support crap like rocks and t-wave and your usual status, but most notably phazing. With a set of something like stealth rock/heavy slam/status (t-wave or tox or filler idk)/roar, it can do a lot of good shit for a team.
Counters Azu, Bisharp, Dragonite, Scizor, Gyarados, Tyranitar, Crawdaunt, and more or less breloom too.
This is pretty nice for a team, coupled with capacity to set up rocks on a ton of shit, but wish support is mandatory. However, this actually isn't nearly as bad as it sounds because you can just slap on an alomomola and you have a duo ready to take on most of the physical meta.

Honestly tho if I was to run some wish eating steel i'd rather just use doublade, I think he can drop to C :/

 

[Albacore]

Blissey can even afford to invest into her special attack to guarantee 2HKOes on Ferrothorn and OHKOes on Gliscor and Lando-T.

no it can't lol, this statement is completely ridiculous why the hell would you invest in SpA on Blissey, compromising your bulk (which is mind you, the entire point of running Chansey or Blissey), just in the off chance that you might one day have the ability to hit a Ferrothorn slightly harder wtf

also:

144 SpA Blissey Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 188-224 (53.4 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
96 SpA Blissey Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 280-332 (87.7 - 104%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
224 SpA Blissey Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 320-380 (100.3 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Blissey Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 360-428 (94.4 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Blissey Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 276-328 (78.4 - 93.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

might as well run life orb blissey

 

[Celticpride]

C+ > C This is more along the lines of getting some discussion for this. I understand usage doesn't equate to viability but I never see this thing, and I really mean never. I've never actually had someone even consider using this in OU and I've only seen it like once in the past several months that didn't really reflect its viability more so than the players skill level. It seems like it was way better in the M-Mawile era, which is gone now. I feel like it should drop but I guess if someone ca make a convincing argument for it to stay I'm all ears.

I am going to support this. Mega Aggron seems to fit on a lot of different teams, but there is always something else that fits better. Mega Venu already covers a lot of threats physically even when uninvested. WoW Zard-X handles a good amount of them as well. Then you have the general Steel type competition. Mega Scizor, Skarm, Jirachi, Ferro, Heatran and others can fill similar gaps from a typing perspective. Also, Aggron tends to fit more of a support role. I know every Mega doesn't have to be a sweeper or wallbreaker, but there are better uses for your Mega slot than a steady spreader of Rocks and TWave. Most importantly, it lacks reliable recovery.

Now, it does have redeeming qualities. It's literally the definition of titanic bulk. It has more than useable Attack even uninvested. It's ability is great. It has decent enough coverage in Steel/Ground/Rock, even if it loses STAB on Rock.

It is just weird that it has a lot of decent and quality traits, but him, Houndoom and Absol are basically the three OU viable Megas I never see in action. Maybe it's just that he's not good looking. He's going to be near the bottom of the OU cutability rankings when those come into existence (even Ubers has those now). Mega Aggron for C.

 

[Clone]

So amidst the dumb Stoutland / Blissey shit, I saw a bit of support for Magnezone to rise.

Nominating Magnezone for A-

This guy is a monster right now. Scarfzone has quickly become a staple on many offensive teams, and for good reason. For one, he traps steels. Ferrothorn, Scizor, and Skarmory simply quiver whenever they see a Magnezone on the opposing field. His presence alone deters them from switching in. And if they do, theyre gone. This opens holes in your opponents defensive cores and allows mons like Pinsir, Azumarill, Mega Gardevoir, Latios, etc. to wreck havoc on opposing teams.

On top of this, Magnezone has an excellent Steel / Electric typing, which, while seemingly not that great, is actually very useful. With a Scarf equipped, he serves as a nice check to birdspam, as only Jolly Talonflame and ScarfRaptor are capable of killing him. With this, he can use STAB Volt Switch to gain easy momentum as long as the opposing ground types are dead. To top it all off, 70 / 115 / 90 bulk is pretty damn good on the physical side, which gives him switch in opportunities against the multitude of hits he resists. It also probably worth mentioning that Thundy cant T-Wave him, which makes him a decent check.

Magnezone for A-

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

On a serious note, the only good discussion here is about MAggron. Blissey is Unranked material. I don't care if you run offensive or stall set, Chansey is just better.

Now, on a serious note, I would like to talk about a Pokemon that has a hidden niche.
Don't laugh; but it's Golurk. It has Iron Fist, making punch moves do extra damage and allowing it to OHKO Lando I,T, and possibly Garchomp. It can also run Fire Punch to do major damage to Ferrothorn and Scizor. Now, the special thing about this set is that NO ONE expects it. Run a scarf and Eq mega Char X, OHKO's 80% of the time. It also forces Chansey to switch out with Superpower and whatnot. Sadly I know why it is Unranked, it's because of its horrible defenses and it's mediocre attack, but it's more of a surprise set.
Now, a good thing about golurk is that it checks 2 S rank Pokemon and a ton of A ranks.
I don't think this deserves D rank, but possibly it could? I just wanted to throw this out there. There is just too many sweepers out there I guess.
Calcs:
252 Atk Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 412-488 (129.1 - 152.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 400-472 (112 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 254-300 (84.9 - 100.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Iron Fist Golurk Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 110-130 (32.9 - 38.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers
252 Atk Golurk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 288-342 (96.9 - 115.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Obviously outclassed, but cool.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Don't laugh; but it's Golurk. It has Iron Fist, making punch moves do extra damage and allowing it to OHKO Lando I,T, and possibly Garchomp. It can also run Fire Punch to do major damage to Ferrothorn and Scizor. Now, the special thing about this set is that NO ONE expects it. Run a scarf and Eq mega Char X, OHKO's 80% of the time. It also forces Chansey to switch out with Superpower and whatnot. Sadly I know why it is Unranked, it's because of its horrible defenses and it's mediocre attack, but it's more of a surprise set.
Now, a good thing about golurk is that it checks 2 S rank Pokemon and a ton of A ranks.
I don't think this deserves D rank, but possibly it could? I just wanted to throw this out there. There is just too many sweepers out there I guess.
Calcs:
252 Atk Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 412-488 (129.1 - 152.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 400-472 (112 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 254-300 (84.9 - 100.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Iron Fist Golurk Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 110-130 (32.9 - 38.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers
252 Atk Golurk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 288-342 (96.9 - 115.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Obviously outclassed, but cool.

Or you can use an interesting Sub+DynamicPunch+Earthquake+Shadow Punch set, but by this logic we should also rank Machamp. Also, Golurk gets Stealth Rock and checks Thundurus pretty well.

I doubt Golurk deserves to be ranked, though, as it's outclassed.

 

[RotomPoison]

I support this. The main problem with Mega Aggron is that it takes up your Mega slot. If not, it would be pretty decent in OU.

The main problem with Mega Aggron is that it has no recovery. If it had Recover it would be 10x better, the mega slot argument is really overused lately when it applies to all of them

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

The main problem with Mega Aggron is that it has no recovery. If it had Recover it would be 10x better, the mega slot argument is really overused lately when it applies to all of them

If it had recovery it would be A rank or higher.
Not only does it wall every physical sweeper without boosts, it now can recover at it's will?

 

[Albacore]

Yeah, Magnezone is really good and I support its rise. IMO its main duty is not so much trapping Skarmory (who often runs Shed Shell anyway), but more so trapping Ferrothron who is a huge annoyance to a large portion of the metagame, ans well as trapping Scizor too. It has great synergy with a few top-tier threats, obviously Pinsir is one but Gardevoir also appreciates Steels removed, as do Azumarill and Landorus-T (who even has U-Turn which lets it bait Ferrothorns). It also has a really good defensive typing, with a completely absurd amounts of resists, and very solid bulk enabling it to switch into the likes of Latias, Latios, Azumarill, and non-Focus Blast Thundurus, and with a scarf can check Adamant Talonflame, Pinsir, MGardevoir, Keldeo, and more.

Also, there's a very neat Air Balloon Magnet Rise set which can trap and kill Excadrill, and it can be worthwile if you have a sand-weak team that needs something that can permanently remove Excadrill. It's pretty efficient as long as you don't blindly switch it into Rapid Spin/Iron Head simply because no-one sees it coming, it's pretty hilarious. I recommend people try it out, it's a good set.

 

[SaberSeven]

I feel like that with all the discussion about how outclassed Blissey is (and the one person trying to make a statement for it), I suggest that not only should it be unranked, but blacklisted too. There are more important things to be discussed than Blissey.

 

[AM]

Can we make it so that if people want to suggest absolutely god awful stuff to the viability thread in the D rank they need to show some decent replays or something? First Stoutland and now we're getting suggestions of Golurk. It's making this thread cancerous and wastes 2-3 pages of absolutely non relevant stuff and throws the terms logic and common sense out the window entirely. I understand this isn't some VR subforum but it makes the regular forums look awful when you guys suggest blatantly outclassed stuff with equally bad logic. Not trying to be rude but it's gettin really tiring =/. At the very least a better criteria that's specific other than the vague ones described for each rank perhaps.

 

[Jaroda]

Im not really sure where i stand on the Stoutland thing, but by reading the arguements people are getting it all wrong. Stoutland's niche is as a sand rusher who is used in tandem with Excadrill, not over Excadrill. Secondly, people say "why waste precious sand turns on Stoutland when you could use Excadrill?" To answer this question im going to compare dedicated sand rush teams to swift swim teams. When rain is up, why send in Omastar when you have Kingdra? Why waste the turns on Omastar? (Lets pretend Kingdra is much better than Omastar than it really is for the sake of this arguement) The answer is because Omastar can come in, break down walls for Kingdra, and stay in to sack itself rather than switch out because you have two swift swimmers. Or you could even have Kingdra break down walls for Omastar depending on the situation. The same concept applies to Stoutland and Excadrill. They are both checked by Lando-T, Gliscor, Rotom-Wash, Defensive Mega Scizor, Skarmory, and shit that can take a hit and ko back. Stoutland can lure in and weaken a lot of these guys with Ice Fang, Fire Fang, Wild Charge, and Return to make it easier for Excadrill. On the flip side, Excadrill could put a dent in a lot of these guys to help out Stoutland. This is Stoutland's true niche. Stoutland also gets nifty moves such as Superpower, Crunch (for Mew), Pursuit (if youre using Tyranitar with Excadrill and Stoutland youre even crazier than using Excadrill and Stoutland in general) and the other moves I mentioned. Finally, as many people have pointed out, Stoutland isnt revenged by Azumarill like Excadrill is. However, Excadrill isnt screwed by Thundurus like Stoutland is. If you ask me, having two sweepers who can each stand up to the two best offensive pokemon together is pretty cool. Excadrill isnt stopped by Birdspam either and Stoutland can take a hit if it's absolutely necessary. After typing this all up, I honestly think Stoutland probably deserves D, especially when you look at all the other shit in there (besides Blissey who should be unranked). It's kinda in the same boat as Seismitoad, but Seismitoad faces even more competition from Swift Swimmers and offsets that with an important niche for rain teams. It seems like it might be too late to convince everyone that Stoutland deserves D because the bandwagon effect has already taken place, (due to a bunch of idiots trying to say Stoutland is better than Excadrill) but please read my post first. Finally, to the people who say Stoutland is weak because it cannot OHKO 4x weak pokemon with the elemental fangs, that doesnt make Stoutland weak, it means that the base powers of the moves are weak. Stoutland has a base 110 attack with a base 102 STAB (despite being Normal type and having poor coverage) and can freely run an Adamant nature and an item while having decent coverage moves. If you want to call Stoutland "weak" you mine as well call Azumarill and Thundurus "weak" as well.

Calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 256-303 (82.3 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Wild Charge vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 346-408 (100.2 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Standard Assault Vest)

252+ Atk Life Orb Stoutland Wild Charge vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 302-356 (87.5 - 103.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 164-194 (49.1 - 58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Stoutland Wild Charge vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 406-478 (115 - 135.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(Bulky Dragon Dance)

252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Ice Fang vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 344-408 (97.7 - 115.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Specially Defensive Gliscor)

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 304-360 (95.2 - 112.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Stoutland Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 187-224 (48.9 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Stoutland Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 221-263 (54.7 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Standard Mew)

252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 174-205 (57.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 211-250 (54.9 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Apparently this is the standard Zapdos spread?)

252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 364-430 (94.5 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Air Balloon Heatran)


[\hide]

Thank you. In this specific capacity, Stoutland can be justified a team slot in conjunction with Excadrill and NOT without, so people please stop saying Excadrill is better, that's an obvious and moot point. The point is they can both outspeed and handle different checks for the other. Again, just like Seismetoad being used in conjunction with Omastar/Kingdra/Kabutops. Obviously Seismetoad is inferior to these three but there are team archetypes where they pull their weight in OU that nothing else can. Flaws are obvious and noted, Stoutland for D, like Seismetoad is.

I'll support Mega Aggron for C. It's main issue is its opportunity cost. While it has bar none the best defense rating, great typing, good ability, diverse movepool and fantastic attack stat, it's opportunity cost is too high for its roll and it is outperformed too. Despite being beefy enough to take +2 Close Combat's from Mega Pinsir and being a decent Flying check, Rhyperior does this better without a mega slot. Mega Venusaur has arguably a better defensive typing, certainly better mixed bulk, and numerous recovery and status moves. Admittedly, Mega Aggron pairs well with a Wish/Cleric Fairy like Clefable or Sylveon to keep it healthy, but it just doesn't offer enough that a competent team really has to prepare for. Even with its defense, its speed and special defense are so low it isn't THAT hard to take out, and it's utterly useless if it gets burned.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

Can we make it so that if people want to suggest absolutely god awful stuff to the viability thread in the D rank they need to show some decent replays or something? First Stoutland and now we're getting suggestions of Golurk. It's making this thread cancerous and wastes 2-3 pages of absolutely non relevant stuff and throws the terms logic and common sense out the window entirely. I understand this isn't some VR subforum but it makes the regular forums look awful when you guys suggest blatantly outclassed stuff with equally bad logic. Not trying to be rude but it's gettin really tiring =/.

Would you like to talk about common mons that are talked about in almost every page?
Ok.
Fine.
Anyways, obviously we covered everything about Zone, who counters every steel type albeit a few, and gives Azumarill and Pinsir and Gardevoir easy times to setup. I'm down for it to get ranked up.

 

[AM]

Would you like to talk about common mons that are talked about in almost every page?
Ok.
Fine.
Anyways, obviously we covered everything about Zone, who counters every steel type albeit a few, and gives Azumarill and Pinsir and Gardevoir easy times to setup. I'm down for it to get ranked up.

No I'd like to discuss relevant stuff, in the tier. Not something I would find low ladder that defeats the purpose of this thread. If the thread was based off of the ladder in its entirety we would have like 30+ things in the D rank. It's suppose to reflect decent to higher levels of play anyways.

 

[Aragorn the King]

No I'd like to discuss relevant stuff, in the tier. Not something I would find low ladder that defeats the purpose of this thread. If the thread was based off of the ladder in its entirety we would have like 30+ things in the D rank. It's suppose to reflect decent to higher levels of play anyways.

(as long as you aren't hinting at removing the d rank) i agree with you. It should be reserved for mons that have a tiny niche and are sometimes worth using (see: tentacruel, granbull, whimsicott), but aren't hugely influential or unique. I'm not gonna comment on Blissey or Stoutland any more, but I will say they are kinda swaying us from talking about what we should be. Discussion should be open to every mon, but mons in the higher ranks need more attention that mons in D.

In addition to my Ferro/Zone/Zor/MZor arguments, I'd like to bring back my Toge post. It kinda got lost awhile ago, and I don't remember anyone other than vertex mentioning it (I think he said it could/should move up)

Argument

I know this might will be totally hated on, but I think Togekiss should rise to B-. It's commonly thought of a jack-of-all-trades master-of-none Pokemon, but so is Garchomp, and that's A. Togekiss and Garchomp both share a) an incapability of mastering anything and b) extreme versatility. I'll stop comparing Kiss to Chomp here, because I'm arguing for B-, not A. Basically, while Togekiss has two huge issues (the SR weakness and the Electric-weakness) and one smaller one (competition with fable), it's able to secure some interesting niches. My favorite set of Toge's is the NastyPass set. The set works because of Togekiss's massive bulk, and while its typing isn't the best, it still provides excellent synergy with Electric-types. Thundurus-I already has nasty plot and is immune to ground, so toge is a bit useless for it. However, the other three big offensive electrics (Mega Ampharos, Mega Manectric, and Raikou), all greatly appreciate the sweeping ability and the ground immunity that only Togekiss can provide. Masterclass made an excellent team using Togekiss + Ampharos, and I definitely implore you to check it out. Togekiss's second best set, in my opinion, is its Life Orb set, which is really cool. It again offers defensive synergy, but instead of using Nasty Plot to make its teammates threatening, it uses it with a Life Orb to destroy things. This sets only huge problem is the choice between Fire Blast, Aura Sphere, and Roost (you can only pick two). Otherwise, even with only 80 base speed, LO toge is a really cool set. Then there's the bread and butter specially defensive set, which has a few perks. Fire and foremost, it beats non-Sludge Wave Landorus, which basically should be all Landorus at this point. Other than Landorus, it's also able to serve as an emergency check to Landorus-T, Garchomp, Keldeo, and Mega Gardevoir, while being able to provide hazard removal support, paralysis support for slower teams, offensive presence, and Heal Bell. It can't run all at once, but it's still an interesting defogger capable of beating grounds + less reliably keldeo and gardevoir. It also flinches everything, which allows it to, especially with twave, limit what can beat it.

Electric types are the bane of Togekiss' existence, but it's still able to cope, providing sufficient team support. I think Togekiss' access to Nasty Plot, which is either able to make any special attacker, but specifically Electric types, or itself, extremely dangerous, plus its defensive utility (ground check, garde check, keld check, defog, heal bell, twave) warrants a move up to B-. It's commonly hated on, like Empoleon, but it's not all that different from other B- mons. Ampharos takes the mega slot, needs either togekiss or rain if it's offensive, has to deal with its non mega form (ie it can't switch in on chary if it hasn't evolved yet), and has an absence of reliable recovery. Nevertheless, its unique defensive typing, good coverage, and access to Agility let it carve itself two niches in OU. Togekiss has reliable recovery, the ability to remove rocks, and doesn't cost a mega slot. However it lacks Ampharos' excellent defensive typing and sr neutrality, so I'd say defensively they're about on par. Offensively, Ampharos really needs support to shine (nasty pass or rain), while togekiss doesn't. However, Togekiss is slower, so it's somewhat harder to use v. offense. It also doesn't cause any strain on teambuilding, other than needing a defogger. Again, I'd say their about on par. Then, Toge also has its best set imo, a slow baton passing set capable of making so many pokemon, specifically ampharos, absolutely terrifying. Admittedly it has its flaws, but its not different from Ampharos, Cress, or Chesnaught. All have certain exploitable weaknesses, but have either versatility or extreme proficiency at what they do to make up for it. Togekiss is ridiculously similar to these three; it's versatile as hell, has exploitable weaknesses, and is very good at at least one of its roles, NastyPassing. It's really easy to hate on, since it was so hyped earlier, but I think now it's under hyped.

 

[WideTomato]

I agree with AM about the shitty discussion lets realize it, Stoutland will not be ranked.

also lets face it: Blissey will stay D it have been there for ages, and that won't change. lets spark discussion on other pokemon, i nominate landorus-I for A+ *grabs popcorn* <-- that was a joke, get over it.