XY UU Viability Ranking Thread V2

[KM]

How does one use a special lucario? It's SD set alone is enough to make it S rank so how does the NP set rank up? I have very little experience with special lucario in UU but in OU the SD set is the far superior set. It's too slow and frail to really shine with NP and its special priority is weak even with STAB, so why do I see people mentioning NP? Surely in UU the SD set is better 99% of the time? Extreme speed almost makes lucario the beast that it is, patching up that underwhelming speed and having very respectable power allowing it so pull of the SD set so well. Vacuum wave is shit in comparison.

I'm just curious because I've seen several people bring up the NP set in their arguments to keep lucario at S rank and it confused me as to why. I always thought the NP set was pretty bad when compared to the SD set?

Nasty Plot lucario singlehandedly bones stall in a way that SD doesn't. Vacuum Wave is not shit priority at all, it's only 25% less strong than extremespeed and also actually hits some stuff SEffectively. Lucario can also effectively use dual stab in special (aura sphere and flash cannon) in a way that he can't in physical (iron tail is o_k, but...). Also, as it is the less-used set, there's always going to be that surprise factor of switching into a physical lucario check and being met with a +2 special lucario.

As a special sweeper, it has the ability to break through every special wall in the tier. It can set up on bulky waters like alomomola without being as scared of a scald burn, and it is only really walled by Tentacruel, if that.

 

[Schpoonman]

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 146-172 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery Add in some Spikes and you have yourself a clean 2HKO, even after Protect stalling, I think.

 

[Skankovich]

Not all tenta are phys def though, however they obviously handle the swords dance set worse.

 

[dodmen]

NP Luke messes up many of SD Luke's normal checks like Cobalion, Krookodile, Sableye, and LO or Fire Blast Hydreigon. It has no true defensive counters besides Tentacruel, and it's messed up by Chandelure as much as SD is, but other than that nothing can really switch in. And like PK said, most people expect SD so it's pretty easy to get a boost up as your opponent switches to something that's better suited to handle the physical set.

Blissey in A+ is definitely not an option seeing as it gives free turns to every other Pokemon in the A rank - even Pokemon it normally walls like Roserade and Nidoqueen can set up hazards in its face and Chandelure can Trick it or set up itself.

I also agree with Cobalion rising. The Sub SD set is the one that I found to be the most effective because you can actually get Substitutes against a lot of stuff (Hydreigon, some Jirachis, etc) and its above average speed makes it still usable against a lot of offense. Alomomola has nothing that can break its sub, which I found pretty funny. Cobalion can also be a decent Mega Aero and Crobat check in a pinch.

Yeah Suicune is a monster and it belongs in S right now.

 

[SSJ]

How does one use a special lucario? It's SD set alone is enough to make it S rank so how does the NP set rank up? I have very little experience with special lucario in UU but in OU the SD set is the far superior set. It's too slow and frail to really shine with NP and its special priority is weak even with STAB, so why do I see people mentioning NP? Surely in UU the SD set is better 99% of the time? Extreme speed almost makes lucario the beast that it is, patching up that underwhelming speed and having very respectable power allowing it so pull of the SD set so well. Vacuum wave is shit in comparison.

I'm just curious because I've seen several people bring up the NP set in their arguments to keep lucario at S rank and it confused me as to why. I always thought the NP set was pretty bad when compared to the SD set?

The nasty plot set really is just a lot more effective against certain pokemon. I've used a special lucario in UU and if it gets a chance to set up NP it pretty much tears through a lot of teams with no fighting resists. With life orb+ NP, it can be an absolute destroyer of teams. It also takes care of slowbro (much better than physical lucario) which was in UU while I was using this set: +2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slowbro: 380-447 (96.4 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO and even nearly kills umbreon: +2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 374-445 (94.9 - 112.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

 

[Schpoonman]

Any exact benefits to running Timid Lucario over Modest?

 

[silenced]

The nasty plot set really is just a lot more effective against certain pokemon. I've used a special lucario in UU and if it gets a chance to set up NP it pretty much tears through a lot of teams with no fighting resists. With life orb+ NP, it can be an absolute destroyer of teams. It also takes care of slowbro (much better than physical lucario) which was in UU while I was using this set: +2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slowbro: 380-447 (96.4 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO and even nearly kills umbreon: +2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 374-445 (94.9 - 112.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

This in bold is why I cannot take NP lucario as a serious sweeper. I'm fine with it being S-rank due to how dangerous the SD set is considering the limited number of checks there are to it (even less if you combined some dugtrio/pursuit trap support), but NP I feel has no business sweeping anything other than maybe stall when we should be well and truly prepared for fighting types, especially revenge killing fighting types.

On another note, I saw a nomination for mega-ampharos to go to S-rank a page back. I have to disagree with this as while it is hard to take down the mega sheep, Restalk should really disqualify anything from S-rank due to coughing up free turns. The only reason I don't say the same thing for suicune is that suicune acts as a win condition (and one that requires considerable team building preparation to deal with) through its use of it, as well as doubling as a hard to kill boosting tank if you wish to be more offensive with CM, which at least prevents people immediately trying to take advantage of the passive restalk nature until they figure out which set it is. The weakness to ground is a lot more serious given the lack of reliable recovery and inability to soften the damage (as opposed to suicune who can scaldhax or CM boost to lower the damage of grass/electric).

 

[Schpoonman]

RestTalk isn't even WarAmphamon's best set. If it were Ampharos' claim to fame, I'd agree, but it's probably its least common set after Agility. Not sure why Meru made the motion to point that one out when it's easily its least threatening. But ignoring that, Meru CLEARLY said that the RestTalk said could act as a win condition, yet you completely ignored that and said that Suicune was the one that was a win condition (mind you, Suicune is a MUCH better win condition, but like I said Ampharos' RestTalk set isn't what makes it dangerous). Its incredible bulk, slow Volt Switch, and titanic Special Attack make it dangerous. It can go physically defensive, stuffing virtually all the dangerous Fire attackers in the tier (only Darmanitan can easily get past it with Earthquake which is easily capitalized on by teammates), while the specially defensive set will shut down Suicune itself until it gets a shitton of boosts, and the bulky attacker destroys worlds without boosts, not to mention how freaking incredible that slow Volt Switch is, bringing in REALLY dangerous attackers like Lucario against stuff that can't threaten it like Blissey. Suicune may be a REALLY REALLY GOOD one-trick pony, but Ampharos has multiple excellent sets. It's absolutely a contender for S.

 

[Sam]

I'd actually argue that RestTalk is its best set right now. It really only needs Volt Switch and Dragon Pulse, and RestTalk lets it stay around longer to act as a fantastic check to like half of the meta. Since both Volt Switch and Dragon Pulse are so threatening, it can still be a force when it's asleep. There is the downside to the 1/3 chance of choosing Rest, but you still have 2/3 odds in your favor. It only misses out on Tbolt and Focus Blast, which really aren't missed that much anyway.

 

[Kink]

Move Umbreon be moved to A-

Standard wish set beats half the tier, this poke is no different than blissey in terms of viability. Personal experience with Umbreon has taught me that it's incredibly important in stopping tier threats in the meta.

 

[SSJ]

Any exact benefits to running Timid Lucario over Modest?

Well, since you are using life orb and maybe get a chance to set up a NP, its really better to run a +speed nature since it is nice being able to outrun some pokemon like jirachi which doesn't run +speed nature and kill it with a dark pulse before it flinches you to death. Other benefits include being able to outrun modest hydreigon(I've seen some of them) and also maybe adamant krookodile (I think bulky set sometimes run this) and roserade without +speed nature. All round since you have a life orb, it might be better to go for timid over modest.

 

[Stef0w]

I agree with hydra and wishmaker for S-rank, both are versetile, fast, and hit really hard. jirachi is also a superb status-spreader, and can set rocks.

I find mega-ampharos to be pure sex to use, bulky af, and hits like a truck, outspeeds ninja after an agility, but he doesnt exist but still. It could certainly move up.

Durant should move up as well, it's really fucking fast, and hurts like a mofo with hustle, and a good defense means it isnt deadweight defensively.

 

[TrulyDevious]

I agree with hydra and wishmaker for S-rank, both are versetile, fast, and hit really hard. jirachi is also a superb status-spreader, and can set rocks.

I find mega-ampharos to be pure sex to use, bulky af, and hits like a truck, outspeeds ninja after an agility, but he doesnt exist but still. It could certainly move up.

Durant should move up as well, it's really fucking fast, and hurts like a mofo with hustle, and a good defense means it isnt deadweight defensively.

Hydreigon is perfectly fine in A+, totally fucked up by Mien, has a severe case of 4MSS, no boosting moves, DM and SP weaken it, forcing it to switch repeatedly and easily worn down by hazards/sandstorm/hail (latter two for LO, former for Scarf/Specs).

Jirachi shouldn't really move up though. Unpredicatble, good bulk, acceptable defensive typing. Knock Off and Sucker Punch are bitches though. And Nidoking and Houndoom and Hydreigon and Blissey and opposing Jirachi and IF Luke.

 

[Kink]

Hydreigon is perfectly fine in A+, totally fucked up by Mien, has a severe case of 4MSS, no boosting moves, DM and SP weaken it, forcing it to switch repeatedly and easily worn down by hazards/sandstorm/hail (latter two for LO, former for Scarf/Specs).

I'm forced to disagree with Hydreigon, simply because of the sheer effectiveness at its role. This, coupled by it's good natural bulk and interesting typing, helps it switch in plenty of times. The rule of thumb for Hydrei is this: If you let it switch in, something is probably gonna die. Access to Base 105 attack and u-turn isn't a joke either. Hydrei fits on any style of play, from HO to Stall (have you faced a taunt rooster? Holy crap, beats blissey).

I nominate Hydreigon for S-rank

 

[canasian]

I'm not sure if I agree with Froslass being ranked higher than Azelf.

Although they are rather different in what they do, they both compete for the same position of being a lead on offensive teams. Froslass has a more unique moveset, with Spikes, Destiny Bond, and Thunder Wave, and its typing gives it nice matchups against Rapid Spinners and Defoggers alike (almost all prominent Defoggers besides Empoleon are afraid of a STAB Ice Beam or even being caught by Icy Wind on the switch). But while many powerful sweepers in UU appreciate Spikes support, it is a little unfortunate that Froslass HO teams need to dedicate another slot on their team to a Stealth Rock setter, and use up a turn later in the game to set it up.

Azelf, though lacking the "interesting" moves that give Froslass its unique niche, Azelf has an absolutely gigantic movepool to work with. Stealth Rock and Taunt are givens for a lead set, but from there it has dozens of options; Knock Off and Fire Blast both give Azelf generally good matchups against opposing leads (it's notable that Azelf's higher speed and access to Taunt+Knock Off give it a very strong matchup against Froslass leads), and Explosion and U-Turn provide momentum (with the former being able to stop opposing spinners and defoggers momentarily). Plus, Azelf has access to dual screens, giving it another option to support specific teammates.
Another notable thing about Azelf outside of its lead set is the ability to run offensive sets itself, with sky-high mixed attacking stats and very nice speed giving it the ability to use Nasty Plot, Swords Dance, or Choice items effectively to surprise opponents that were simply expecting a Stealth Rock setter.

After writing all this, I can't decide whether I believe Azelf and Froslass belong in A or A-, but I think they're equally viable options for heavy offense teams and deserve to be the same rank.

 

[Reign of Hail]

Someone care to explain why Rotom-C and Metagross are B-rank? I've tried the AV Metagross set and didn't do too well for me. Not really sure what Rotom-C does either :p

 

[Sage]

Another thing about Umbreon, what King UU said about it being a good special wall is true, it also gets Foul Play STAB. This thing HURTS for a wall, and it also gets Baton Pass if you have a cleric already. This doesnt suck your momentum dry like Blissey does, meaning you can run Umby on bulkier offensive teams without too much problems. Mono Dark is decent typing too.

 

[Sam]

Rotom-C is a really good switch-in to bulky waters and can generally get off volt switches because the threat of Leaf Storm deters ground-types from switching in. If it's not running a choice set it has some good utility in Will-O-Wisp too. It's probably fine in B.

 

[Bouff]

alrighty, time for updates:

1st tiem

-> S Rank

-> A- Rank

-> B+ Rank

-> B Rank

-> B- Rank

It was kinda hard, but I decided against moving Umbreon up due to the fact that it's extreme bait for Lucario, and general inability to deal with it and pretty much every Fighting-type in the current meta.

I also decided against moving up Suicune and MAmphy up, considering the general rise of its answers, such as Rotom-C, Roserade, Shaymin, Celebi, Mega Amph, etc. Granted, offensive sets can deal with some of them, but I really don't think it's enough to move it up to S.

I'm still kind of iffy on Mega Ampharos moving up, so I kinda wanna see some more discussion on it before me n shitten decides if it stays or moves up (he probably has a better idea as to why its staying than I do lol)

 

[Kink]

Someone care to explain why Rotom-C and Metagross are B-rank? I've tried the AV Metagross set and didn't do too well for me. Not really sure what Rotom-C does either :p

All Rotom's have a sense of viability, as they're only electric type pokes with levitate, with incredible natural bulk. A neutral hit cannot KO a bulky Rotom-w/h/c/f/a, and this adds to the overall versatility. Rotom's come in all shapes and sizes. Grass rotom is no different. Access to leaf storm, will-o-wisp, volt-switch, trick, pain split make this an interesting poke in a meta where offensive grass types aren't extremely prevalent (we have like Shaymin and Roserade... and maaaaaybe chestnaught/trev if you bother to consider them "offensive"). I think the B ranking is well deserved.

Access to bullet punch, with 135 attack is no joke. Metagrass can put in work when it has the right support. It is an excellent late game sweeper once some damage has been put on pokes. Most pokes get 2koed on the zen headbutt switch in. Even pokemon that resist this chunk of metal still get hit reasonably hard by a CB meteor/stealth rock combo. Here's some calcs below:

252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-H: 210-247 (87.1 - 102.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Roserade: 157-186 (48.4 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 189-223 (52.2 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Chandelure: 135-159 (41.6 - 49%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 240 HP / 244+ Def Tentacruel: 118-139 (32.6 - 38.5%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

And for some Mienshao fun:
252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 278-328 (102.5 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 297-349 (81.5 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Point made.

 

[Wargreymon]

So I've been using NP luke since I posted here yesterday and it's pretty cool. The main problem I have with it is vacuum wave. When I mentioned it earlier I didn't mean that vacuum wave was shit priority, just shit in comparison to e-speed and I still hold that opinion. At +2 on the physical side e-speed rips through so many frail(ish) offensive threats by flat out OHKO'ing after rocks and anything unlucky enough to be slower just gets destroyed by CC. At +2 on the special side aura sphere/flash cannon wrecks everything but vacuum wave fails to score those important OHKO's. I actually prefer the normal typing of e-speed because fighting resists are everywhere and plenty of teams have something faster than can stomach a +2 vacuum wave and OHKO in return. It just seems to me that there are so many answers to the special set where as the physical set can cause trouble even if you're prepared for it. It's definitely better than I thought though, especially against stall.

Moving on...

I was in the middle of posting a big ass message on why I think hydreigon should be S rank again but it seems there's no need as the changes have arrived! Good to see it back on its throne. The only reason it ever had to look at A+ was togekiss and that's gone so yeah, glad that's sorted.

I think I disagree with mega amphy being S. It has some nice sets in the beautifully slow volt switch or the rest talk but I don't believe it performs any of its sets as well as hydreigon does the LO set or lucario does the SD set. It hates all 3 S rank pokemon too. Lucario's commonly run EQ now, Hydreigon has draco and the specially defensive Jirachi set walls it (Granted it can't do much back, but it still stops it completely).
A big selling point for mega amphy was the ability to check victini and togekiss and there's no need for that anymore. Right now I don't believe mega ampharos is worthy of S rank and I believe it should remain A+.

 

[dodmen]

Glad to see Machamp going to A :]

I think Ampharos should remain in A+, it's just not good enough for S. A lot of the stuff it checks commonly carries U-turn like Jirachi, Crobat, and Darm, and with hazards and no Lefties, it's not too hard to wear it down to the point where it's no longer able to switch in. And while it does check a decent amount of Pokemon and provide an answer to threatening stuff like Crocune, there's just too much of the relevant meta that that threatens the shit out of it.

One thing I'd like to see rise from C is Feraligatr. It works as a solid late game cleaner, and actually has a surprising amount of bulk to set up on stuff (it can live hits from Scarf Mienshao and Scarf Hydreigon after rocks). It's a bit outclassed but I think Feraligatr's SD set is enough to put it in B- at the very least, though B seems more appropriate. The combination of its bulk and the fact that it gets priority makes it really scary once you remove its checks. The set I've used is SD/Waterfall/Aqua Jet/Frustration, though Ice Punch or Superpower or anything you want can go in the last slot. I also used Splash Plate, although Life Orb can be used for more overall power and to get you into Torrent range kind of reliably; however, this can often cut your sweep short.

Replays of Feraligatr

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-165946486

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-165577074

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-165570101

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-165511891

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-165911053

TL;DW:
The opposing Feraligatr used Aqua Jet!
It's not very effective... Sharpedo lost 100% of its health!

 

[Mazz]

Another reason as to why Mega-Ampharos needs to be staying in A+ is that Florges, its go-to switch-in, should be running more special bulk nowadays. The old 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 SpDef spread was basically tailored so Florges could handle Heracross better. Take that away, and it doesn't need as significant investment in Defence and can now run more in Special Defence. If that doesn't ruin Mega-Ampharos' day, I really don't know what does.

You can also look at it this way: everything that was weak to Victini resists one or the other of Mega-Ampharos' STAB moves. Without Victini, all of those Pokemon are seeing a spike in usage. All-in-all, it's a bad time to be a Mega-Ampharos.

 

[TrulyDevious]

The opposing Feraligatr used Aqua Jet!
It's not very effective... Sharpedophile lost 100% of its health!

Not bad. If Feraligatr is at +2 though, it's meh. Still, I second the nomination. With Rain support, this thing is gonna wreck shit. GG Megasavior(dog)...

 

[RowDog]

I honestly would like to see Doublade in B/B+ or even A-. It walls a good range of strong mons at the moment, including Crobat, some M-Aero, Jirachi (got to watch out for Fire Punch burns but Fire Punch itself hardly scrathes Doublade), and the rising Cobalion and Virizon.
It beats SD Luc and NP variants without Dark Pulse (even +2 Crunch won't OHKO +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 208-247 (65.2 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) whilst Sacred Sword and Shadow Sneak will kill it everytime
252+ Atk Doublade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lucario: 256-302 (91.1 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
It can switch in to Blissey with little fear whatsoever unless they are running Fire Blast for some reason, and can proceed to setup. Does the same with Fairies such as Florges and Aromatisse and Curselax, all of which are abused.
At +2 Chande cannot reliably revenge it and it can deal quite a lot of damage to unprepared teams.
It's bulk is great and can take even super-effective hits quite well.
This thing also pairs incredibly well with Blissey which has no troubles receiving wishes from.

Anyway, I've had a lot of success with it and think it should be at least higher than C.

(And I'll rant about Gastrodon later)