CAP 19 CAP 19 - Part 9 - Attacking Movepool Discussion

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Birkal

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Time for movepool discussion, yippee! Our Movepool Leader, alexwolf, will guide us through the following threads to finalize the movepool for CAP 19. At the conclusion of this thread, he will present a finalized list of attacking moves that users will be allowed to include in their Final Movepool submissions. When posting in this thread, be sure to focus your arguments toward alexwolf and his questions, as his is the primary authority in deciding the final list of allowed and disallowed moves.

An attacking move is a move that deals damage to an opponent as its main purpose or one of its main purposes. All other moves are considered non-attacking moves. It is important to distinguish attacking moves, which can be used specifically to deal damage, from non-attacking moves, which are used for some major effects but may happen to deal a small amount of damage. For some moves, such as Rapid Spin, this is clear-cut. However, the classification of moves such as U-turn and Volt Switch are dependent on the user's ability to damage the opponent with the move. Competitive moves are moves that are viable for use in battle on a given Pokemon. This categorization is also Pokémon-dependent.

The Movepool Leader has sole discretion for interpreting which moves are considered attacking or non-attacking, and which are considered competitive or non-competitive, for this project. He/she will post a list of competitive attacking moves in the first reply to this thread, and classify them into five or six groups:
  • Required - Moves are those that must be in every movepool submission.
  • Allowed - Moves that have been agreed through general community consensus to be allowed in the Pokémon's final movepool
  • Disallowed - Moves that have been agreed through general community consensus to be disallowed from the Pokémon's final movepool
  • Controversial - Moves that did not reach general community consensus, and will require a specific vote.
  • Pending - Moves that have not received enough support or opposition to determine whether they are allowed, disallowed, or controversial
  • Need Discussion (optional) - Moves that the Movepool Leader may want to draw specific attention to at any given time. This will be updated frequently, so check back frequently.
This list will serve as a single point-of-reference for the current state of the discussion. The community should make posts arguing for moves to be allowed or disallowed. The Movepool Leader will re-categorize the moves as the discussion progresses, until he/she deems the discussion over. The controversial moves will be put to a vote to determine whether they will be allowed or not.

Remember that, technically, nothing is set in stone until the thread is closed.

Rules for posting in this thread:
  • All posts should be presented with reasoning. NO flavor-based logic will be tolerated.
  • It is the responsibility of each user to check the OP before making any post in the thread, so as to stay relevant.
  • Posting lists of moves is strictly prohibited, even with explanations. Do not copy the Move Leader's list, and then add "Yes/No" or a similarly worthless comment, beside each one.
  • The Movepool Leader and Topic Leader are the sole arbiters for determining "general community consensus". The Movepool Leader may ignore arguments for or against certain moves, if he/she feel the argument is not presented with sufficient evidence or reasoning. Do not assume that the existence of a few dissenting posts will ensure that a move will be categorized as controversial.
  • Non-competitive moves should not be discussed in this thread, unless you feel they are incorrectly categorized and should be considered competitive. In this case, you can post reasoned arguments in this thread.

This thread will be open for discussion as soon as alexwolf posts his opening remarks and questions for discussion.

--------------------

Concept:
Yilx said:
Name: Einherjar ~Acta Est Fabula~

Description: A Pokemon that dissuades your opponent from fainting it, or can even leave it's presence on the field felt even after it faints.

Justification: When a Pokemon faints, it's usually thought of as the battle having gotten down to a 5-6. However, we've yet to discover if a Pokemon can leave a lasting impression on the battle even after having fainted; be it through moves like Healing Wish and Destiny Bond, placing hazards that the opponent can't remove as their removal has been taken care of, or by leaving an opponent's key member weakened and/or taken out.

Questions To Be Answered:
  • How can a Pokemon leave a long-lasting effect on the rest of the battle with just it's moves?
  • How the hell is it different from simply ramming a sacrificial martyr into your opponent's team and hoping it punches holes in it?
  • Building on the previous question, is it possible to build this Pokemon as a defensive threat rather than a "Glass Cannon"?
  • Is it even possible for a Pokemon to leave a lasting effect on on the battle, even after it faints?
  • Could changing your opponent's way of thinking even be plausible? From, "I need to take CAP X out!", to, "Damn, if I take CAP X out, I'll be in trouble...!"

Type: Electric/Poison
Abilities: Storm Drain / (Insomnia/Vital Spirit)
Stats: 60 HP / 57 Atk / 119 Def / 131 SpA / 98 SpD / 100 Spe

Leadership Team:

Pwnemon- Topic Leader
ginganinja - Ability Leader
srk1214 - Typing Leader
alexwolf - Movepool Leader
Deck Knight - Stats Leader
 
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alexwolf

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So, it's time to decide the CAP's movepool. A few basic rules before getting into specifics:
  • Respect our checks and counters list. For example, strong moves that hit for super effective damage Ground-types will be disallowed and don't even bother talking about them.
  • We don't want to cover every single threat that has a 1 v 1 advantage against the CAP with our movepool.
  • When saying phrases such as ''We need the power of X moves'' or ''X move is too powerful'', explain why with specific damage calculations and proper, metagame-related reasoning.
With that said, let's see what we want in terms of movepool. First, we want a Pokemon able to hit hard, because we want to attract a very specific set of Pokemon, and for this to happen the CAP should at the very least be hard to check. This means that moves with high BP are not out of the question, as long as they don't bypass are checks and counters. The CAPs STABs have decent offensive neutral coverage together in OU, outside of Ground-types, but there are still a few common Pokemon able to take hits from the CAP relatively easily and threaten back the CAP immediately, such as Latios, Latias, and Tyranitar, so discussion about moves that deal with those Pokemon is welcome. Finally, there are many coverage options that improve our 1 v 1 matchup against OU Pokemon but don't violate our checks and counters list, so discussion about such moves is also welcome.

To begin with, i am going to put the basic mandatory moves for all final stage regular Pokemon in the required moves section, as well as the basic and mandatory STAB for the CAP, Thunderbolt. In the allowed moves section there are only Sludge Wave and Sludge Bomb, the usual Poison STABs, because every movepool submission should have at least one of those two, but i don't see any need to impose a single one of them. Everything else is in the ''Needs Discussion'' list, such as Acid Spray, a pseudo-boosting move that makes us more difficult to counter but has the potential danger of messing with our checks and counters list, the pivoting moves (Volt Switch and U-turn), and some useful coverage options.

Pending

None

Need Discussion

None

Required

Thunderbolt
Return / Frustration
Hidden Power
Facade
Hyper Beam
Round
Giga Impact
Rest

Allowed

Electric moves
Poison moves
Psychic moves
Rock moves
Bug moves
Steel moves
Dragon moves
Fairy moves
Dark moves
Ghost moves
Normal moves
Flying moves
Physical Ice / Grass / Water / Fighting / Ground / Fire moves

Disallowed

Special Ice / Grass / Water / Fighting / Ground moves over 60 BP
Fire moves
U-turn
Acid Spray
Volt Switch
Hurricane
Earthquake
Icicle Crash
Flare Blitz
Blaze Kick
Wood Hammer
Close Combat
Superpower
Hammer Arm
Cross Chop

Controversial

None


So, let's get some discussion going!
 
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Something that I think immediately needs discussion is Volt Switch/U-Turn. Obviously, the first thing we need to address is if we should allow CAP to have it in its move pool, but we also need to address which one we should allow it to have.

I think that if we want to assist a Mega Gyarados sweep, we should allow CAP to have one of these moves. Basically, all it does is help get Gyarados in without having to worry about taking damage. My main hang-up about allowing it is that perhaps it doesn't exactly fit the concept. Our concept is to deter killing CAP, and Volt Switch/U-Turn just make it harder to kill it--or--they make CAP an evasive mon. So, in essence, something may WANT to kill CAP, but we won't let it have the chance (see, Rotom-W).

That said, if we choose to go on, I believe we should choose Volt Switch over U-Turn. Not only do we have a Special Attacking spread, but I think the inability to Volt Switch against the Ground-types we want to be threatened by helps alleviate the problem I had above. If we give it U-Turn, then it will be able to gain momentum against ANYTHING (not named Shedinja), and I'm not sure that is exactly on concept.

TL;DR Volt Switch, not U-Turn
 

Ignus

Copying deli meat to hard drive
Yo. This is by far my favorite part of CAP. Let's talk about coverage, yes?

Alexwolf already made it clear that there are some types we absolutely cannot have strong coverage with. Ice, especially, is shit we need to avoid. Unfortunately, because of that stupid move Hidden Power and a extremely destructive base 131 special Attack, if we give CAP too much coverage outside of HP, it opens up the option for the player to use different hidden powers then those we would normally want to encourage. Here's what I mean. Lets do some calcs, shall we?

Code:
252 SpA Eelektross Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 304-360 (85.1 - 100.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Eelektross Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 356-420 (111.5 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Eelektross Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 316-376 (82.7 - 98.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Eelektross Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 336-396 (95.4 - 112.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Yikes. Even with just the power of HP Ice, we verge on breaking our checks. 131 special attack'll do that.
Okay, so how do we discourage the player from taking HP ice? Is there anything we can do that would stop players from taking a move that has coverage so good the it literally has a nickname for it? Seriously, how do we stop someone from taking BOLTBEAM? It even sounds terrifying.

The way I see it, the only thing we can really do is force CAP to take a different Hidden Power Type. So what threats to Gyara do we not already control with our STABS? What coverage do we need to handle Gyara's counters? The only answer is obvious, as far as I'm concerned.

It's been brought up several times already, and honestly, a large portion of the justification for our base stats were based around the fact that we could still handle Gyara's counters by carrying even the weakest of relevant fire coverage.

Here's some of the justification from Stats that I'm talking about.
CAP 19 wants to break certain walls and discourage sweepers from setting up. The most notable accomplishment of 130 SpA is the following:

252 SpA CAP 19 Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 186-220 (51.5 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

What this means is that Excadrill can check CAP 19, but if it's sniped by a Hidden Power Fire, then it's game over. It also means that CAP 19 could beat non-Scarf Excadrill using Air Balloon shenanigans. So yeah, Excadrill is still a check, but considering it's one of the more dangerous checks (especially if Sand Rush is involved), I think that this is fair.

Some other notable hits:
252 SpA CAP 19 Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 204-240 (57.9 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA CAP 19 Hidden Power Fire vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 144-170 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO
(By the way, the calculations in that post are for 130, not 131 special attack, but I think that 1 point off is close enough to still be relevant.)

So what does all this crap I just spewed mean? It means we should disallow fire coverage >60 BP. The stuff I just said above explains why, but to reiterate:
  • Allowing more coverage means a higher likelihood of players taking HP ice. That's bad. We don't want that.
  • We already hit things we need to hard enough with just HP fire. Let's leave it that way.

Sound good? I hope so. Giving CAP fire coverage would be a mistake.
 

Ununhexium

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If we don't have HP Ice, Garchomp and Landorus are free to set up on CAP, therefore disallowing Gyarados to set up on them. We need to threaten them so they will be forced to attack us, therefore we can't run HP Fire. HP Fire also lowers your Speed IV so you lose to Mega Gardevoir. Therefore, if we do not want more than 60 Base Power, we should use Incinerate so we don't lose to Mega Gardevoir and we can keep HP Ice. Even then, I like Flamethrower better so we can beat Amoonguss more easily, getting a clean 2HKO on it, while Incinerate only gets a 3HKO on it. Incinerate doesn't even OHKO Ferrothorn, even with a Life Orb, it only has a 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock.

I'll add more later, just my two cents on Fire coverage
 
On Discharge, I feel Discharge should be disallowed. Since status doesn't seem to be how the community wants to build this Pokemon, the opportunity for random hax to enable CAP to beat Pokemon it shouldn't seems a little high for this Pokemon. Given that this is also the Pokemon with the perfect typing for Assault Vest, we should probably force the user to make a choice between getting the paralysis and getting the Vest. For the same reason I think Nuzzle should be disallowed, but that's a story for non-attacking movepool, I feel.
Thunder is perfectly fine for CAP to have. Given that CAP has all its eggs in one basket on its attacking game and his STAB supports Scarf use so poorly, having high impact moves gives incentive to use CAP instead of any of the usual Gyarados partners.

We should probably have Volt Switch and not U-Turn, for pretty much the same reasons ;lmlm listed above.

Acid Spray is a no-go. We already have oodles of Special Attack. A well predicted Acid Spray will not only put nearly all of our counters into kill range, but the ones it doesn't put into kill range get crippled for the Pokemon we switch into. Charge Beam is also questionable, though this is more tolerable, since this only occasionally gets a boost, and our Ground counters are immune.

I'd like to put Aura Sphere and Whirlpool on the table. Aura Sphere has coverage on all the things we didn't intend to counter CAP while also stoping a Gyarados set-up, but does anyway. Excadrill, Magnezone, and Terrakion choiced into Stone Edge are all excellent examples. Things like Landorus, Lando-T and Glisor, which we want countered by CAP, all resist the Aura Sphere as well. It also gives us some reason to ever use Vital Spirit as an ability, as we now have more reason to want to be better against Venusaur and Amoongus, as Aura Sphere is resisted by both.

Whirlpool, on the other hand, lets us trap Pokemon that we already know counters our set-up, like said Venusaur and Amoongus, and force them to stay in while a counter comes in. If that counter has Pursuit, that's even better. The important part is, though, that we don't have to fight counters as long as the counters stay to fight somebody else.

Given Aura Sphere, there's no reason to have a Ground, Ghost, or Dark move. Well, technically I should say that provided Nidoking doesn't jump into OU, there's no reason to have this coverage. However, we don't suffer against Poison, Electric, Ghost, or Dark types. Rock and Steel, which we can suffer from, both get wrecked by Aura Sphere.

Even without Aura Sphere, Bug coverage is pretty useless on CAP. The Grass types that beat us only take neutral from Bug. We can't beat Psychic types even with super effective coverage, and Dark types don't resist our STAB. In face, many Dark types in OU are set-up targets for Gyarados.

Parabolic Charge is also be good for it to have given that we're going to want Life Orb as an item most of the time. Simply put, we need Life Orb to get across damage well, but that means we're always leaking health. That means even things we ought to be countering counter us once our health gets low, so we should have a way to stop the bleeding so that CAP doesn't end up countering itself.

Air Slash is something that should be considered, but I don't think it's needed. It helps us not be weak as nonsense against Grass types, and that's good.
 

Valzy

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Air Slash is something that should be considered, but I don't think it's needed. It helps us not be weak as nonsense against Grass types, and that's good.
Poison STAB helps us against Grass-type and also threatens the Fairies who threaten Mega Gyarados too
 
On Discharge, I feel Discharge should be disallowed. Since status doesn't seem to be how the community wants to build this Pokemon, the opportunity for random hax to enable CAP to beat Pokemon it shouldn't seems a little high for this Pokemon. Given that this is also the Pokemon with the perfect typing for Assault Vest, we should probably force the user to make a choice between getting the paralysis and getting the Vest. For the same reason I think Nuzzle should be disallowed, but that's a story for non-attacking movepool, I feel.
Thunder is perfectly fine for CAP to have. Given that CAP has all its eggs in one basket on its attacking game and his STAB supports Scarf use so poorly, having high impact moves gives incentive to use CAP instead of any of the usual Gyarados partners.

We should probably have Volt Switch and not U-Turn, for pretty much the same reasons ;lmlm listed above.

Acid Spray is a no-go. We already have oodles of Special Attack. A well predicted Acid Spray will not only put nearly all of our counters into kill range, but the ones it doesn't put into kill range get crippled for the Pokemon we switch into. Charge Beam is also questionable, though this is more tolerable, since this only occasionally gets a boost, and our Ground counters are immune.

I'd like to put Aura Sphere and Whirlpool on the table. Aura Sphere has coverage on all the things we didn't intend to counter CAP while also stoping a Gyarados set-up, but does anyway. Excadrill, Magnezone, and Terrakion choiced into Stone Edge are all excellent examples. Things like Landorus, Lando-T and Glisor, which we want countered by CAP, all resist the Aura Sphere as well. It also gives us some reason to ever use Vital Spirit as an ability, as we now have more reason to want to be better against Venusaur and Amoongus, as Aura Sphere is resisted by both.

Whirlpool, on the other hand, lets us trap Pokemon that we already know counters our set-up, like said Venusaur and Amoongus, and force them to stay in while a counter comes in. If that counter has Pursuit, that's even better. The important part is, though, that we don't have to fight counters as long as the counters stay to fight somebody else.

Given Aura Sphere, there's no reason to have a Ground, Ghost, or Dark move. Well, technically I should say that provided Nidoking doesn't jump into OU, there's no reason to have this coverage. However, we don't suffer against Poison, Electric, Ghost, or Dark types. Rock and Steel, which we can suffer from, both get wrecked by Aura Sphere.

Even without Aura Sphere, Bug coverage is pretty useless on CAP. The Grass types that beat us only take neutral from Bug. We can't beat Psychic types even with super effective coverage, and Dark types don't resist our STAB. In face, many Dark types in OU are set-up targets for Gyarados.

Parabolic Charge is also be good for it to have given that we're going to want Life Orb as an item most of the time. Simply put, we need Life Orb to get across damage well, but that means we're always leaking health. That means even things we ought to be countering counter us once our health gets low, so we should have a way to stop the bleeding so that CAP doesn't end up countering itself.

Air Slash is something that should be considered, but I don't think it's needed. It helps us not be weak as nonsense against Grass types, and that's good.
I'm going to bandwagon on Whirlpool here. Not only can we trap things like Amoongus and Mega-Venu, but we can trap our counters so that they can't double switch when we go to Gyarados.

Also, we could consider Psychic over Flamethrower, as it allows us to remove Amoongus. At the same time, it forces us to run HP Fire over HP Ice for Ferrothorn. This will, in turn, deter us from running the absurd HP Ice that was previously mentioned.
 

nyttyn

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Ban both U-Turn and Volt Switch

This shouldn't even be a question. Not only are these options both anti-concept (at least, what few shreds of our concept still exist), they also push CAP 19 way too far into the "generically good" category, and are probably too good period. Poison/Electric pivot with a water immunity (STORM DRAIN at that), and we want to give it Volturn?

Edit: To expand on why Volt Switch (and by extention, U-Turn) is such an awful idea, let me remind you of what our concept is, or rather, has morphed to: A pokemon who's goal is to set up conditions favorable for Mega Gyarados to sweep, preferably through its death. Due to the typing we have chosen, we have attempted to pidgen hole the opponent into fainting it with a ground type move. If they choose not to, they'll find CAP 19 to be quite the pain - and if they do, they'll have mega gyarados to deal with.

The problem with Volt Switch/U-Turn is they completely remove that part of the dynamic, as CAP 19 can now just switch out with reckless abandon, transitioning its role to a pivot. Combine with the plethora of resistances (and the immunity!) it has, and giving CAP 19 Volt Switch or U-Turn will just make it a generically good pokemon that will find usage on many teams (especially with its stats and resistance line up, plus storm drain hot damn).

Plus, 131 Special Attack backing a 70 BP STAB is going to cause chunking on top of all that. U-Turn doesn't quite have that problem, but it still has all the prior mentioned problems.
 
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Ban both U-Turn and Volt Switch

This shouldn't even be a question. Not only are these options both anti-concept (at least, what few shreds of our concept still exist), they also push CAP 19 way too far into the "generically good" category, and are probably too good period. Poison/Electric pivot with a water immunity (STORM DRAIN at that), and we want to give it Volturn?
I think banning Volt-Switch may be overkill. I have my doubts about it being on concept (with which I do agree with you at a fundamental level), but I think it could be very useful to the topic of the Gyarados sweep. Pretty much everything we aim to be threatened by is Ground, so they're immune to it anyways. While perhaps giving CAP Volt Switch DOES push it into "generically good" territory, I think we've already done that with the stat spread we've given it.

What I'm really getting at is I genuinely DO believe this topic should be a question. While Volt Switch is perhaps off concept, it is on course for our goal of securing a Dragon Dance Sweep.

EDIT: To expand on why I wouldn't throw Volt Switch out, let's all remember that CAP is entirely subject to being worn down. Electric/Poison with Storm Drain does NOT mitigate ANY hazard damage, which is known to be effective against pivots. Add on to that the possibility of running Life Orb, and you've got a steady stream of residual damage racking up. Any team with a defensive core will still be able to handle CAP through sheer bulk. nyttyn is correct that Volt Switch transforms CAP into a generically good Pokemon, but is that too much?

Also, NumberCruncher , I'm going to reiterate what I said above. We could give CAP Psychic for super effective coverage against the things that Sludge Wave doesn't already hit (and I'm choosing to omit Trevenant from the discussion because it's honestly no longer relevant in this metagame).
 
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Poison STAB helps us against Grass-type and also threatens the Fairies who threaten Mega Gyarados too
Except it doesn't, since Sludge Wave fails to hit super effectively on Venusaur, Amoongus, or Trevenant which all flat out wreck Gyarados. Heck, we don't actually yet have a move in our movepool capable of 2HKOing Amoongus at all, even assuming Sludge Wave is in our pool. That being said, I still don't think we actually need Air Slash, but I think you're heavily underselling it, especially since Breloom and Chesnaught are the only Grass types not listed above even worth touching, and Chesnaught is flat-out immune to Sludge Bomb.
 

Valzy

Destroyer of Worlds
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Except it doesn't, since Sludge Wave fails to hit super effectively on Venusaur, Amoongus, or Trevenant which all flat out wreck Gyarados. Heck, we don't actually yet have a move in our movepool capable of 2HKOing Amoongus at all, even assuming Sludge Wave is in our pool. That being said, I still don't think we actually need Air Slash, but I think you're heavily underselling it, especially since Breloom and Chesnaught are the only Grass types not listed above even worth touching, and Chesnaught is flat-out immune to Sludge Bomb.
Barely anybody uses Amoongus or Trevenant though. Plus, can't Gyarados use Bounce to deal with those?
 
Volt switch: This one should be a voted for decision IMO. Volt switch can set up a situation to bring gyarados in safely.
Thunder is a given, Only 2 electric pokemon don't get it (Tynamo and joltik) so it sould get it. It isn't really fast enough to warrant a massive thunder abuse, due to rain nerf.
Acid spay fits with the concept of a lasting presence. We get the ability to set up for a special attacker to get a free KO.

Fighting and ground moves: Maybe something like mud bomb/shot for ground and focus blast for fighting, but other than that, we really want to leave Non support heatran as a setup for mega gyarados. With focus blast, it isn't as bad, since the pay off of the ability to KO mega TTar comes at a cost of inaccuracy. The accuracy could let them set up.
Ghost and dark moves: Some stuff like shadow ball/ominous and dark pulse should be considered. Poison and electric's main counters are ground types.
Bug moves: Silver wind gives us something for celebi, but it isn't too OP, but poison STAB will be powerful enough to take it down..
Flying: We really don't need these. We could add air slash to counter fighting types with EQ, but then you can jump out to gyarados, and then resist during normal gyarados, and then can setup.
 
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Please don't let voltturn happen. Let's clarify (again) that our concept isn't "help Gyarados sweep" but rather "discourage the opponent from KOing us". Let me reiterate what nyttyn said about how good a fast Electric/Poison pivot with a water immunity and voltturn would be. I don't know of any scenario where you wouldn't want that dead given the chance. Furthermore, because of our 100 speed, we can't even bring Gyarados in safely on the many things slower than us. Both moves fly in the face of concept. DISALLOW.
 
Volt switch: This one should be a voted for decision IMO. Volt switch can set up a situation to bring gyarados in safely.
I can agree with that sentiment. This does seem a bit controversial.

Acid spay fits with the concept of a lasting presence. We get the ability to set up for a special attacker to get a free KO.
Debuffs were already ruled as anti-concept back in Part 2 of voting. Further, CAP becomes a bit game-breaking if it has access to this particular debuff.

Fighting and ground moves: Maybe something like mud bomb/shot for ground and focus blast for fighting, but other than that, we really want to leave heatran as a setup for mega gyarados.
Except that Heatran isn't setup for Gyarados because of Will-O-Wisp.

Also, we need discussion about stuff like healing wish and destiny bond, The moves with a lasting presence. So Look at the following:

Healing Wish VS Lunar Dance: The difference between the 2 is that lunar dance restores PP.

Destiny Bond: Is a must. It's the main idea of the concept, so why not use it.

Wish: It's wish passing capabilities are pretty Meh but should be considered.

Memento/Parting shot: I decided to lump these together. Parting shot is a cool switching move, but nerfs the opponent. Pretty nice using parting shot, giving a lasting presence and can set up the sweep. Memento is the kamikaze option. Die, and then a better set up scenario.
None of those are attacking moves. Wait to discuss those until the non-attacking moves discussion. Further, Destiny Bond was ruled anti-concept as well. You really should consider looking back at part 2.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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Volt Switch: I'm fairly torn on this subject. Switching out kinda just dodges around the concept and doesn't even allow the opponent to have the choice to try to KO or not. However, as NumberCruncher mentioned, ground types are immune to it and prevent the switching action, so it does put a greater reliability of getting in a ground type that can KO CAP19... However, at this time, I think preserving the concept is more important, and that volt switch doesn't help much in doing so.

U-Turn: I don't see any redeeming factors in this move that helps out our concept/direction. The free switch against anything is too much of a general effect.

Discharge: I actually am leaning towards allowing this. Ground types are already immune to the move, and we'd rather use Sludge Wave on a lot of the bulky fairies/grass types that might give Gyarados trouble. More often than not, I think we'd actively be using our electric stab to try to KO, and discharge is the inferior choice here. Overall, I'm doubting the utility of Discharge not because I think it's anti-concept but because I think it will be outclassed by Thunderbolt in the majority of situations. This in turn makes me think it's a move that cannot be properly abused by CAP19, and so I don't see the harm in allowing it. After looking at the usage stats under movesets and searching for discharge, the only things that commonly use it are Zapdos, Porygon2, and some lower tier mons like stunfisk... Things like Jolteon only have about a 2% discharge usage. This isn't because it's a bad move, but I think moreso it's because it's only truly usable of quite bulky mons. While we have some physical bulk, I don't really think we can call CAP19 all that bulky at this point. So, tl;dr, Discharge should be allowed because it's not particularly abusable on something with less than fantastic bulk.

Thunder: I see no reason why this wouldn't be allowed. I'm not afraid of a 30% para chance (we're not super bulky/bulky enough to abuse this), and the power is great but the accuracy offsets this.

Acid Spray: Almost any non-steel type that switches into this will be much, much easier for CAP19 to deal with. It's generically good.

252 SpA CAP19 Acid Spray vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 57-67 (15.6 - 18.4%)
252 SpA CAP19 Sludge Wave vs. -2 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 267-315 (73.3 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


A combination of Acid Spray and Sludge Wave has a really good chance of KOing Mega Venusuar. Sure, Gyarados would love Mega Venu to be dead, but if this one move can accomplish this against Venu, it can be abused against too many other threats. As a result, I think it shouldn't be allowed.

Fighting moves: Alright, if we're talking fighting moves, there are really three ones that deserve mention; Focus Blast, Aura Sphere, and Vacuum Wave.

252 SpA Life Orb CAP19 Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 390-463 (96.7 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

With a Life Orb, this is what a Focus Blast allowed CAP19 to do, and I think this is a pretty big deal. Support TTar is something that Gyarados can handle pretty well, and I don't think we need that much power. In the end, I think it's more beneficial to the concept to have support TTar KO us with EQ than for us to have such a high chance of KOing him. Therefore, I was initially inclined to not allow Focus Blast. However, DDance TTar is much more of an immediate threat, as a CAP19 with electric/poison moves can't really do much against it, and if it can set up enough, then there's less hope for setting up Gyarados. I had been hoping that Aura Sphere would be enough to KO DDance TTar, but alas that is not the case.

252 SpA Life Orb CAP19 Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (DDance) Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 390-463 (114.3 - 135.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
As a result, I think Focus Blast has some nice uses. Of course, the accuracy problems also keep it in check from being OP. As a result, I reluctantly think Focus Blast might be worthy of being allowed. Maybe.

Looking through OU at ground types that Aura Sphere threatens, I did find one that made me feel a little iffy.

252 SpA Life Orb CAP19 Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mamoswine: 385-455 (107.2 - 126.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
With a Life Orb and Aura Sphere, we beat up Mamoswine pretty badly. Overall, Mamoswine is not something I think we should necessarily have CAP19 beat. Sure, Focus Blast already helps us do this, but the shaky accuracy at least gives Mamo a chance to KO us like it should. However, all in all I really couldn't find much of anything that Aura Sphere would be helpful against. At least Focus Blast is helpful in taking out a potential threat to Mega Gyarados, but I'm not sure Aura Sphere does the same. So, at this time I am not a huge fan of allowing it.

Vacuum Wave is the most interesting move of the three to me personally, however. Obviously, it's main use would be picking off weakened Pokemon. Focus Sash Smeargle sticks out the most to me, as vacuum wave would prevent it from passing boosts that could help whatever teammate was suppose to have come in. It's also handy against opposing Bisharp, who's defiant would make an Intimidate Gyarados think twice about switching in. So, overall, I see Vacuum Wave as having some positive impacts as it helps with some things that Gyarados doesn't necessarily want to see.

tl;dr I'm iffy on Focus Blast, relatively against Aura Sphere, but think Vacuum Wave is allowable.

Ground Moves: The most notable ground moves I can think of are Earth Power and Mudshot. Essentially, their main use would be against Heatran (and maybe Zard X). Overall, Gyarados's Intimidate helps to remedy Char X if he got a DDance in, and Gyarados only really fears burns from Heatran. Even so, a CAP19 Thunderbolt should weaken Heatran enough for Gyarados to KO it next turn without the fear of burns. However, this might prevent Gyarados from getting a free Dragon Dance up like he wants... However...

252 SpA Life Orb CAP19 Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 364-432 (94.5 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Even with Earth Power + LO, this isn't a sure KO for CAP19. HP Ground will get the 2HKO regardless, so I don't see a super pressing need for extra ground moves.

Overall, I'm not sold on allowing Ground moves.

Bug Moves: Really, I just don't see the point. This gives us a fighting chance against Latias/Latios if we are weird and have an AS or something. I'd much rather have Gyarados deal with Psychic types (other than Mega Garde, of course, which Bug moves don't help with anyway). Disallow Bug moves.

Dark Moves: Pretty much in the same boat at Bug moves. They needlessly threaten Psychic types. Disallow.

Ghost Moves: Ditto as above.

Flying Moves: Gyarados might have problems with bulky grass types, and sludge bomb only somewhat remedies this problem when it comes to Mega Venusaur. However:

252 SpA Life Orb Abomasnow Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 175-207 (48 - 56.8%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Abomasnow Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 185-218 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The difference in damage output from Sludge wave to Air Slash is fairly negligible I think. Why waste the move slot other than for maybe the flinch chance?

The only flying move that I can see having a real impact is Hurricane, but by that point we're becoming a contender for a rain abuser with Thunder + Hurricane. Sure, Mega Gyarados likes the rain too. I just question if Hurricane + Thunder might be too much.

tl;dr I'm not too sure here, but I don't see a huge benefit from Air Slash, and I think Hurricane might be crossing a fine line.


And if we venture off of alex's list for a second, there's...
Fire Moves: These are kind of interesting. They don't threaten a whole lot on our counters list, but they do help beat up Ferrothorn. Furthermore, HP fire gives us an ugly 30 speed IV, meaning we can't cleanly take out Mega Gardevoire anymore. Overall, I'm not particularly opposed to Incinerate, and I don't see flamethrower becoming broken against anything other than Excadrill. Unfortunately, that's a pretty decisive KO with Life Orb.

252 SpA Life Orb CAP19 Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 367-432 (101.6 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So, at this point I'm not sure how I feel about fire moves overall.
 
In the interest of dissuading use of HP ice, I reccommend we do not give CAP19 fire coverage. That alone will force people to use HP Fire to deal with Scizor/Ferro.

May I also second the recommendation for Psychic type coverage? Look at the mons we want to threaten we don't hit with our stabs:

Terrakoin
Conkledurr
Mega Venusaur
Amooungus
 
Volt Switch: I'm fairly torn on this subject. Switching out kinda just dodges around the concept and doesn't even allow the opponent to have the choice to try to KO or not. However, as NumberCruncher mentioned, ground types are immune to it and prevent the switching action, so it does put a greater reliability of getting in a ground type that can KO CAP19... However, at this time, I think preserving the concept is more important, and that volt switch doesn't help much in doing so.

U-Turn: I don't see any redeeming factors in this move that helps out our concept/direction. The free switch against anything is too much of a general effect.

Discharge: I actually am leaning towards allowing this. Ground types are already immune to the move, and we'd rather use Sludge Wave on a lot of the bulky fairies/grass types that might give Gyarados trouble. More often than not, I think we'd actively be using our electric stab to try to KO, and discharge is the inferior choice here. Overall, I'm doubting the utility of Discharge not because I think it's anti-concept but because I think it will be outclassed by Thunderbolt in the majority of situations. This in turn makes me think it's a move that cannot be properly abused by CAP19, and so I don't see the harm in allowing it. After looking at the usage stats under movesets and searching for discharge, the only things that commonly use it are Zapdos, Porygon2, and some lower tier mons like stunfisk... Things like Jolteon only have about a 2% discharge usage. This isn't because it's a bad move, but I think moreso it's because it's only truly usable of quite bulky mons. While we have some physical bulk, I don't really think we can call CAP19 all that bulky at this point. So, tl;dr, Discharge should be allowed because it's not particularly abusable on something with less than fantastic bulk.

Thunder: I see no reason why this wouldn't be allowed. I'm not afraid of a 30% para chance (we're not super bulky/bulky enough to abuse this), and the power is great but the accuracy offsets this.

Acid Spray: Almost any non-steel type that switches into this will be much, much easier for CAP19 to deal with. It's generically good.

252 SpA CAP19 Acid Spray vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 57-67 (15.6 - 18.4%)
252 SpA CAP19 Sludge Wave vs. -2 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 267-315 (73.3 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


A combination of Acid Spray and Sludge Wave has a really good chance of KOing Mega Venusuar. Sure, Gyarados would love Mega Venu to be dead, but if this one move can accomplish this against Venu, it can be abused against too many other threats. As a result, I think it shouldn't be allowed.

Fighting moves: Alright, if we're talking fighting moves, there are really three ones that deserve mention; Focus Blast, Aura Sphere, and Vacuum Wave.

252 SpA Life Orb CAP19 Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 390-463 (96.7 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

With a Life Orb, this is what a Focus Blast allowed CAP19 to do, and I think this is a pretty big deal. Support TTar is something that Gyarados can handle pretty well, and I don't think we need that much power. In the end, I think it's more beneficial to the concept to have support TTar KO us with EQ than for us to have such a high chance of KOing him. Therefore, I was initially inclined to not allow Focus Blast. However, DDance TTar is much more of an immediate threat, as a CAP19 with electric/poison moves can't really do much against it, and if it can set up enough, then there's less hope for setting up Gyarados. I had been hoping that Aura Sphere would be enough to KO DDance TTar, but alas that is not the case.

252 SpA Life Orb CAP19 Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (DDance) Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 390-463 (114.3 - 135.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
As a result, I think Focus Blast has some nice uses. Of course, the accuracy problems also keep it in check from being OP. As a result, I reluctantly think Focus Blast might be worthy of being allowed. Maybe.

Looking through OU at ground types that Aura Sphere threatens, I did find one that made me feel a little iffy.

252 SpA Life Orb CAP19 Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mamoswine: 385-455 (107.2 - 126.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
With a Life Orb and Aura Sphere, we beat up Mamoswine pretty badly. Overall, Mamoswine is not something I think we should necessarily have CAP19 beat. Sure, Focus Blast already helps us do this, but the shaky accuracy at least gives Mamo a chance to KO us like it should. However, all in all I really couldn't find much of anything that Aura Sphere would be helpful against. At least Focus Blast is helpful in taking out a potential threat to Mega Gyarados, but I'm not sure Aura Sphere does the same. So, at this time I am not a huge fan of allowing it.

Vacuum Wave is the most interesting move of the three to me personally, however. Obviously, it's main use would be picking off weakened Pokemon. Focus Sash Smeargle sticks out the most to me, as vacuum wave would prevent it from passing boosts that could help whatever teammate was suppose to have come in. It's also handy against opposing Bisharp, who's defiant would make an Intimidate Gyarados think twice about switching in. So, overall, I see Vacuum Wave as having some positive impacts as it helps with some things that Gyarados doesn't necessarily want to see.

tl;dr I'm iffy on Focus Blast, relatively against Aura Sphere, but think Vacuum Wave is allowable.

Ground Moves: The most notable ground moves I can think of are Earth Power and Mudshot. Essentially, their main use would be against Heatran (and maybe Zard X). Overall, Gyarados's Intimidate helps to remedy Char X if he got a DDance in, and Gyarados only really fears burns from Heatran. Even so, a CAP19 Thunderbolt should weaken Heatran enough for Gyarados to KO it next turn without the fear of burns. However, this might prevent Gyarados from getting a free Dragon Dance up like he wants... However...

252 SpA Life Orb CAP19 Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 364-432 (94.5 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Even with Earth Power + LO, this isn't a sure KO for CAP19. HP Ground will get the 2HKO regardless, so I don't see a super pressing need for extra ground moves.

Overall, I'm not sold on allowing Ground moves.

Bug Moves: Really, I just don't see the point. This gives us a fighting chance against Latias/Latios if we are weird and have an AS or something. I'd much rather have Gyarados deal with Psychic types (other than Mega Garde, of course, which Bug moves don't help with anyway). Disallow Bug moves.

Dark Moves: Pretty much in the same boat at Bug moves. They needlessly threaten Psychic types. Disallow.

Ghost Moves: Ditto as above.

Flying Moves: Gyarados might have problems with bulky grass types, and sludge bomb only somewhat remedies this problem when it comes to Mega Venusaur. However:

252 SpA Life Orb Abomasnow Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 175-207 (48 - 56.8%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Abomasnow Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 185-218 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The difference in damage output from Sludge wave to Air Slash is fairly negligible I think. Why waste the move slot other than for maybe the flinch chance?

The only flying move that I can see having a real impact is Hurricane, but by that point we're becoming a contender for a rain abuser with Thunder + Hurricane. Sure, Mega Gyarados likes the rain too. I just question if Hurricane + Thunder might be too much.

tl;dr I'm not too sure here, but I don't see a huge benefit from Air Slash, and I think Hurricane might be crossing a fine line.


And if we venture off of alex's list for a second, there's...
Fire Moves: These are kind of interesting. They don't threaten a whole lot on our counters list, but they do help beat up Ferrothorn. Furthermore, HP fire gives us an ugly 30 speed IV, meaning we can't cleanly take out Mega Gardevoire anymore. Overall, I'm not particularly opposed to Incinerate, and I don't see flamethrower becoming broken against anything other than Excadrill. Unfortunately, that's a pretty decisive KO with Life Orb.

252 SpA Life Orb CAP19 Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 367-432 (101.6 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So, at this point I'm not sure how I feel about fire moves overall.
I honestly enjoy giving CAP 19 a niche in rain teams, but I also wonder if Hurricane + Thunder is a bit much. The coverage is still handily resisted by Excadrill, Ferrothorn and Heatran, all of whom are 3HKOed at best by that coverage and can do their own work against CAP 19 in kind. I feel like Hurricane has the potential to be allowed, as it is very shaky accuracy outside of rain, which offests the benefit of its power.

However, to that effect, if Hurricane is chosen, we should NOT have Focus Blast or Aura Sphere, period. It provides far too much coverage against our counters. Even Vacuum Wave is iffy, although a fair bit better: 252 SpA Life Orb Abomasnow Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 164-195 (45.4 - 54%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO.

Though it does stop Excadrill cold 50% of the time, a Specs set could overcome that. However, the reason I still endorse Vacuum Wave is that if we have a Choice item, we become locked into Elec/Poison coverage with a weak Fighting move, which is incredibly risky and highly discourages the use of choice items. For that reason, I say Vacuum Wave is fair game.

No Volt Switch or U-turn. Goes against the concept we have if we avoid the KO in general. I'll state that Baton Pass should also be disallowed.

Whirlpool sounds hilariously useful for trapping M-Venu, Amoonguss and Breloom. It fails against opposing CAP 19, Volt Switch, U-Turn and other water immunities, so I believe it is adequately balanced. It also does support the concept of CAP 19, as we can sack it after a Whirlpool for a free setup by Gyarados or whatever sweeper you find apropos. Of course, with how common those two moves are, it does introduce risk into using the move and an active discouragement towards KOing CAP 19, which also supports the concept. I vote for Whirlpool to be added to the movepool.

Psychic is the next best thing after Hurricane, really.
 

Da Pizza Man

Pizza Time
is a Pre-Contributor
Allow Fire Coverage not >60. I think this is absolutely essential to have if we want to be able to take on Ferrothorn while still losing to Excadrill. Don't believe me when I say that we still lose to Excadrill? Well look at this calc (Dragon Pulse is Incinerate and Mew is CAP19)

252+ SpA Life Orb CAP19 Incinerate vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 268-317 (74.2 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This is with Modest Life Orb with SR up and we still fail to OHKO it when it can OHKO us back with Earthquake, hell we literally need to have Modest Choice Specs just to OHKO it, and even in that case its a very low chance of doing so (6.3% W.O SR). It also lets us take on Ferrothorn and Threaten Garchomp at the same time, which is exactly the thing we want to do.

Disallow Volt Switch/U-Turn. These two moves are the epitome of anti-concept, if we want to have to faint in order to set up on the opponent then we can't have these moves, they just are to dangerous for the concept.

Allow Thunder. I really don't see any reason not to put it on, it's not overly powerful and its horrible accuracy outside of the rain really turns you away from the move.
 
So here's where I'd like to point out that Latios can get rid of CAP with Earthquake / Psychic STAB and then turn around and do a solid 62% min to MGyara, which will leave it at 13% in a best case scenario while actually having a 31.3% chance of getting OHKO'd after Rocks. In the absolute best scenario, we end up with a +1/+1 MGyara at 13%, which leaves it in range for pretty much every priority user ever. That's why I think some form of Bug-, Dark- or Ghost-type coverage should be used in order to not have Latios KO CAP with pretty much no consequence. In a related note, I guess it should be mentioned that Latios destroys both of our other two DDers, Dragonite (with Multiscale broken) and Char X, so it's kind of a big deal.

Bug Buzz does a pretty solid 78.4-93%, so there's that for your consideration.

Bottom line, maybe I'm missing something (emphasis on maybe), but I think hitting Latios on the switch should be a pretty big deal.
 
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Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
If coverage is desired to hit Lati@s, then the correct coverage in my opinion is Bug, not Ghost or Dark. It is another STAB that is resisted by Steels, meaning we can't hit something like Jirachi for SE damage or Excadrill for normal damage as we could with Ghost or Dark STAB. It also adds the least amount of unwanted SE coverage because of its redundancy with Poison in how it hits Grass types.

252+ SpA Life Orb CAP 19 Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 182-216 (45 - 53.4%) -- 31.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I think ^this is really undesirable. Jirachi is a rising special wall in the post Aegislash metagame due to how it can take on Mega Gardevoir and I don't think we should be able to 2HKO it this way. Another alternative to Bug is Dragon, which also hits Lati@s for SE damage and doesn't hit Jirachi for SE damage, but that seems a bad idea as well because CAP 19 can run Dragon coverage and free up space for HP Fire, since it doesn't need HP Ice for the 4x weak Dragons (Sludge Bomb/Wave hits the 2x weaks harder than HP Ice anyway, as does Dragon coverage >60 BP obviously).

The alternative is to simply not allow anything harder than Sludge Wave for hitting Lati@s anyway. After all, after a round of Stealth Rock and one turn of LO recoil Latios already has a chance of being OHKOed by Modest LO CAP 19 using its Poison STAB.

So imo,
Disallow Dark and Ghost coverage > 60 BP
Disallow Dragon coverage > 60 BP
Allow Bug coverage
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I always find it helpful, especially on this project, to go back to our Threats List:

Pwnemon said:
Closing time.

As I kind of expected, there wasn't very much novel we learned in the department of "what do we want the CAP to be threatened by?" Alexwolf's list was a good one that people seemed to agree on for Pokemon that Gyarados could set up on, so we'll work from that.

alexwolf said:
  • Landorus
  • Keldeo locked into anything except from Hidden Power Electric / Scald
  • Excadrill outside of sand
  • Landorus-T
  • Garchomp
  • Greninja
  • Mega Scizor and regular Scizor
  • Choiced Fire-types (Choice Band Talonflame locked into Flare Blitz, Scarf Heatran, Scarf and Band Victini locked to anything other than Bolt Strike)
  • Hippowdon without phazing
  • Gliscor that lacks Toxic and is not faster than Mega Gyarados + Taunt (EQ + Knock Off SpD Gliscor, SR + Taunt + U-turn Gliscor)
  • Dragon Dance Dragonite
  • Mamoswine
  • Starmie without Thunderbolt
  • Weavile
  • Rhyperior without Toxic / Roar
  • Tyranitar and Mega Tyranitar (except from CB Stone Edge, which does over half)
As I said earlier, we need not check every box on this list. However, it'd be nice to check as many of them as possible, to give Gyarados more opportunites to set up. This list is where all of our hard counters should come from.

It's important also to note however, as ginganinja said, that we shouldn't be setup bait for anything which could then use the setup to take on Gyarados. For example, Garchomp is on alexwolf's list, but we shouldn't let it Swords Dance before it attacks CAP19 or else Gyarados cannot set up on it. CAP19 should lose to Garchomp, but be threatening enough to force it to attack right away.

As for what CAP19 should threaten—it should threaten defensive Pokemon and pivots which Gyarados has trouble handling. These include but are not limited to Ferrothorn, Slowbro, physically defensive Amoonguss, Alomomola. If possible, it should also be able to beat Gyarados's more offensive counters such as Thundurus, Mega Aerodactyl, and Mega Manectric, but these are a secondary priority.
STAB Thunderbolt already does us a lot of favors on this list, so the question really comes down to which moves give the most leverage on countering what we want to counter.

Psychic / Psyshock immediately springs to mind as a move which can threaten most of the Pokemon remaining on this list substantially, as does the aforementioned Hurricane. I think the question does become how likely CAP is to run HP Ice vs. HP Fire, and so for this reason I think disallowing Fire > 60 is the way to go. Ferrothorn is a nuisance, but is nearly useless when Taunted or when our Pokemon is behind a Sub. Forcing that choice is critical to not making CAP generically good.

I also think Rock coverage is warranted. At issue is the fact Rock scares away Talonflame and Zard X, however if those Pokemon are running Will-O-Wisp they can cripple Gyarados just as well. Rock is resisted or neutral by much of the Pokemon we want M-Gyara to set up on, and is also effective against Thundurus. Dragonite is threatening enough generally that I think an SE move on it is not too bothersome.
 
Psychic / Psyshock immediately springs to mind as a move which can threaten most of the Pokemon remaining on this list substantially, as does the aforementioned Hurricane. I think the question does become how likely CAP is to run HP Ice vs. HP Fire, and so for this reason I think disallowing Fire > 60 is the way to go. Ferrothorn is a nuisance, but is nearly useless when Taunted or when our Pokemon is behind a Sub. Forcing that choice is critical to not making CAP generically good.
Keldeo is the only thing on the list that Psychic actually threatens, though, and we're already virtually immune to all of his attacks. Everything else on the list either resists it (like Mega Scizor, Heatran, or Victini), is immune to it (like Tyranitar, Weavile, or Greninja in original form), or takes far less damage from that than a Hidden Power Ice or an actual STAB move (a category even Keldeo fits into). In fact, given the three Pokemon we still aren't anywhere near answering are Amoongus, Mega Venusaur, and Quagsire I'm starting to wonder if Psychic is the answer to that. Thus, I'd like to put Psychic as an option that the community should bring to vote.
 
I feel that Acid Spray shouldnt be allowed. Acid Spray, does weak damage but it has a helpful touch: -2 Special Defense. Always. This is literally the opposite of the concept. If we use Acid Spray, and weaken even a single Pokemon of 2 stages by special defense, next turn its a guarunteed KO, considering CAP 19's high special attack. It even cripples some of the counters. This will not only make the CAP able to sweep teams without even utilizing gyarados, but it will also make the opponent want to ko it at all costs opposed to not wanting to ko it.
Disallow Volturn: Lets see how many counters it can just damage and switch into the counter of the counter to ko:
  • Keldeo
  • Talonflame
  • Greninja
  • Ttar (Only with U-Turn, but volt switch can do a decent amount outside of sand)
  • Weavile
  • Starmie
  • Victini
So it can literally heavily weaken the counters which are not ground type.

Disallow Bug moves > 60 BP and special bug moves: Bug moves are not that good against most of the counters, but due to that high special attack, a lot of the counters could be damaged well, again opposing the concept of not wanting to ko CAP 19. Even though there arent many physical bug moves crossing the base 60 line, it could be bad for specially defensive counters if the cap was given powerful physical bug moves such as megahorn.

Disallow ground: Many fire types and rock types are in the list of counters and if the CAP gets ground moves it would turn the other way around. The CAP itself would become a counter to the counters if it gets ground moves. Also, it would become a counter to itself that way too which we dont want to happen.
 

Eragon2

Banned deucer.
Discharge: Disallow. Discharge could make it a viable threat in Double and Triple battles. The only well Discahage isn't good is that it can hit its allies to the side of it and unless you set it up so that's a problem that's negligible.

Volt Switch/U-Turn: Disallow. The point of CAP19 is it for it to stay out on the field, not do hit-and-run tactics.
Discharge: Allow. I don't think we're focused on Doubles. What's Discharge? A weaker Thunderbolt with a higher chance to paralyze. In my opinion there is no problem with the concept. I see more an additional support option for Gyarados (like a possible free turn to set up or the option to hit a pokemon with a higher base init hard before this could hurt Gyara) than making CAP19 a viable threat. Furthermore it is still only a possibility to paralyze and not a certitude. And to be serious, with a base stat of 131 in sp.atk nearly every neutral move hits good.

Thunder: Allow. Like many other people mentioned before Thunder is a really strong move with a really bad accuracy. Of course Thunder would make CAP19 a big threat in rain, but that's cool. Outside the rain (or even in sun where its accuracy is lowered to 50acc) it stays a risky move to use. And it is not one hitting threats like scarfed Heatran or Tyranitar. Even with Life Orb.

252+ SpA Life Orb CAP19 Thunder vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 246-290 (76.1 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb CAP19 Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 173-204 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(for sure a three hit without LO or crit here)

Volt Switch: Allow. Bringing in CAP19 against Pokemon like M-Venusaur or Starmie doesn't mean that these have to stay in. The opponent could switch easily in another poke like scarfed heatran and ohko our stingray with an Earth Power. To prevent this we need Volt Switch. Since we want the opponent to bring in pokemon like Excadrill it is a must to have Volt Switch on it, making threats like Excadrill or other Ground Types the only rational decision against CAP19.

U-turn: Disallow. Too powerful and it doesn't fit the concept. We want the possibility to block the Switch with a Ground Type.

Acid Spray: Not sure about this. But I think mixed with its high base sp.atk and base 100 init Acid Spray is too strong. And other moves like Sludge Wave or Air Slash would have the power to 2hko threats like M-Venusaur or Amoonguss anyway under the right conditions.

252+ SpA Life Orb CAP19 Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 191-226 (52.4 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Flying moves
Hurricane:
I would love to see CAP19 using Thunder and Hurricane. Making it perfect for rain teams where Gyarados fits as well. Same problematic like Thunder. Outside of the rain its a risky move to use and giving CAP19 both, Thunder and Hurricane, rain is a must for it. The strong it would be in rain the weak it is outside of the rain / in sun.
Air Slash: Safe 2hko against Amoonguss or M-Venusaur. Dunno what to say.
Bounce: Fits the Concept. Could force the opponent to switch into a Steel or Rock Type Pokemon. But I don't think that it would be that strong with a base atk under 60.

Ground Moves > Fighting Moves
Better give CAP19 Epowers than Focus Blast or Aura Sphere.
I'm no fan of both since Aura Sphere would kill Excadrill and Tyranitar. But because Ttar survives Epower its a more acceptable move to me for CAP19.
Since Earth Power is too strong EQ would be the best Ground Type Move 4 CAP19.

4 Atk Life Orb CAP19 Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 179-213 (49.5 - 59%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb CAP19 Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 367-432 (101.6 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I also want to mention Sticky Web and Toxic Spikes since these would support Gyarados as well slowing down dangerous threats or poisoning walls like Chansey.

P.S. Im sorry for my bad english^^'
 
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