np: XY UU Stage 3 - Calling [Diggersby: BL, Next: Scolipede]

[Patrick1088]

First off, i just want to say that I am enjoying the intelligent conversation going on! Victinis ban is really bringing up some great points and I love where this is going!

Tini is a great overall poke. Its V create along with the base 100 attack coupled with the rest of its movepool is just stellar. I dont think Tini can be just slapped on every single team since most of the playerbase plays tini too recklessly, but in the right hands its one of the best pokes around. But, the question begs to to be asked, does Victini promote mindless v create or u turn clicking ala Genesect? I think we can all say that tini has few safe switch ins and prediction is entirely on your opponent. Will you send alo to tank the v create? Will you send Nidoqueen to absorb the bolt strike? Will you send houndoom to absorb the fire/psychic move? one mispredict and your poke is gone or tini can just spam u turn and switch out to the apprpriate counter. I think the time away will be a good thing for the tier. You definitely cannot replace Tini, but new strategies can emerge which can help the meta evolve and grow. Im on the fence about Tini, but one last thing to keep in mind...

When making a new team, you have to keep Tini in mind whether its a RK, hazards, or semi reliable checks. Tini has a huge effect on the meta and its presence away shows exactly how much of a force it is..

 

[TM13IceBeam]

I still remember when I ripped off the 'stalltini' set used in OU (somewhere along max attack with a good deal of bulk invested, with v create, bolt strike, taunt and wisp ) for use on a trollish regen team with momo and guss. victini actually makes a really good partner tbh since 100/100/100 uninvested bulk is actually pretty nice, but furthermore, nobody expects will o fucking wisp from a victini. that just goes to.show how versatile this motherfucker is. (the team is dead atm since i relied heavily on mew, but it was definitely one of my best teams and broke 1500 for like a few battles... lol)

 

[Pinkin Lark]

:S Victini was one of the few things that could take +2 Adamant LO from Luke before Rocks and RV.

Are people really that happy to see Victini banned? I remember Somolia making the argument last year that the reason why people don't like playing against Victini is that they are too lazy to figure out what set it is, which tbh, is pretty spot on. I mean, it is really clear which Victini carries a CB and what doesn't...and scouting for Energy Ball or Thunderbolt/Thunder isn't too difficult either, especially with Florges that beats the Special set, Suicine and Blastoise that can handle a mixed/physical set.

*shrugs*

I think Infernape will get some more usage since Tini is now gone.

Maybe it was just because I never got terribly high on the ladder, but there was only 1 kind of 'Tini I ever ran into: Choice Band. And unless you run one of a handful of 'mons on your team, it tends to just destroy you. The -1 speed from V-create isn't even usually a factor, all it does it make it switch out if something faster comes in, then it can freely come back with full speed again. Even Rocks aren't that huge of a deal, especially with the prevalence of Spinners/Defoggers we have. Even then, 4 switch-ins can potentially equate to 4 dead 'mon on your side.

Yes, Victini is a wallbreaker. But when the majority of the tier gets outsped by something that can 1hko most things lacking incredible bulk/typing, there may be a problem.

 

[Nysyr]

On the fence how I feel about Victini. On one hand it was one of the few ways to punish playing too passively, while on the other hand it's switchin's are limited and the threat of being bopped by a banded V-create is so real you can't ever make the bold call that hes something like mixed EBelt with GK/EB.

I do think that the drops + SR weakness + pursuit/sucker weakness were a balancing factor however. Once you knew the set it wasn't terribly difficult to deal with.


As for Togekiss, that scum can stay BL. Way too safe to use while being able to cripple/beat the entire meta with support from just Dugtrio.

 

[Patrick1088]

Nysyr sucker punch is sometimes a check to tini. Its a bad thing to underestimate that 100/100/100 bulk...

252 Atk Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 290-344 (85 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 367-432 (107.6 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

To make things worse in honchs case, tini can easily tun substitute to take prediction out of the equation. So sucker punch is a check sometimes..

As for the SR argument, i dont think its a fair statement to say. We had Volc, Moth, Thundy T, and Raptor were all weak to rocks, but the arguement that defog and spinning is as easy as ever is pretty accurate. Last gen, we were stuck with stoise and hitmontop as UU spinners. Now, we have starmie, donphan, tenta, forretress, empoleon, flygon, crobat as spinners and defoggers. Every one has a niche and has fantastic synergy with tini where they cover the weaknesses perfectly.

Edit: oh and Mega Blastoise that can blast spinblockers away lol

 

[Master B8s]

Gonna give my 2 cents on this.
Smeargle: No i don't miss this thing. It came up earlier that its similar to Venomoth in what it does, puts a pokemon to sleep then quiver passes. One main difference they had was Venomoth had Wonder Skin, making it hard to stop it before it put one pokemon to sleep, Smeargle is still taunt bait to anything faster than it then the potential boosting pass is finished since Smeargle relies on a focus sash to tank a hit. Do i still think its broken? Yes. Ill only be ok with letting Baton Passing Smeargles back in when Venomoth gets back in to.

Togekiss: Someone can clear this up for me whether Togekiss was banned because of GeoPass or it was just broken. I personally didn't mind Togekiss in UU, i actually enjoyed it. It was the only offensive fairy counter to Hydreigon (i guess you can include Diance), and it could preform a number of roles. I found it to be a great partner with Blissy as it x4 resisted fighting type moves. You could use it for nasty plot set up (you need Sticky Web IMO), Wish passing, cleric support, or just wall breaking. Before someone brings up the "I don't want to guess the set" don't. Just because i pokemon has more than two sets or so doesn't make it broken. Mega Zard-X has DD sweeping and WOW sets, both play different but neither are broken. Same applies here, Togekiss support sets are outsped by Nidoking who 2HKOs with sludge wave. Nidoking checks Nasty Plot sets because it outspeeds Kiss. I never thought Togekiss was S-Rank material, more like A or A+, though i still hate ParaFlinch hax. It had the move pool to do offensive and defensive and i thought it would mesh nicely into UU.

Victini: Im aware this is where the main argument is. Victini did have its share of offensive sets that are a problem to UU, STAB V-Create is nothing to look over. Its counters aren't the same for each set, but each set has its own counters which people have stated. For me, Rotom-H with a little SpD investment to tank Psychic if it carries it checks Victini just fine. In return Rotom can't Volt Switch out, or leave it a nice T-Wave to cripple it and take its threat out of the way. I don't like switching into V-Creates, but i nice Pursuit trapper takes it out. After a V-Create, Victini will want to switch out, and then you can trap it and get off a pursuit to kill it at -1. In my opinion though, i do think Victini has to go, while there are checks and counters out there for this guy, they're obscure. The Rotom-H is just a check and i made that one personally just for Victini, and isn't that the idea of removing stuff, when it makes team building too centralizing, which Victini certainly does.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Okay I guess I can try to explain why Togekiss was a potentially broken mon, since I am relatively familiar with it from BW UU (read: it was incredibly powerful).

Bascially, while Togekiss is not invincible, it kind of warps teambuilding in a sense. Its classic set, NP / Air Slash / Thunder Wave / Roost, is incredibly powerful, since it can paraflinch basically everything in the tier and Thunder Wave in tandem with potentially boosted Air Slashes makes Togekiss a very hard opponent to defeat, since even if Togekiss does not score that OHKO, the high flinch chance means opponents will be struggling to fight against Togekiss, plus extra power and a high Special Attack mean it's pretty strong. It could also run Heal Bell instead of Thunder Wave, and this makes Stall basically dead against Togekiss. Of course, if this was all, it probably wouldn't be that powerful, would it? This brings me to my next point: its bulk. Togekiss is impressively bulky, even though its Stealth Rock weakness is a little crippling, Togekiss takes hits very well with the proper investment: very few non super effective attacks will OHKO Togekiss, and some Pokemon will struggle to even 2HKO it. This, in tandem with Thunder Wave and Nasty Plot, mean that Togekiss can create plenty of opportunities for itself and start a path of destruction. Its Fairy / Flying typing, which is quite nice defensively, only sweetens the deal, it allows it to get in on things like Krookodile and Hydreigon, among other Pokemon, and take advantage of them. When Togekiss can take advantage of a lot of Pokemon, doesn't that scream "This sucks!"? Of course bulk isn't everything, and it's Togekiss's access to Nasty Plot and Thunder Wave that allow it to pull off something of a sweep and it creates its own category of sweeping. Of course, if you want, Togekiss could pick out Aura Sphere or Dazzling Gleam or something for coverage which could be useful. And yes, Togekiss is also very versatile: it can also run an offensive set with Nasty Plot, or NastyPass, which was pretty good and you could easily pass to something like Chandelure or Mega Ampharos and proceed to wreck. You could easily handpick the set for your team, and Togekiss did quite a bit of work no matter what. And as for that "Oh Nidoking beats Togekiss, therefore Togekiss isn't broken!" argument, that's a pretty bad argument. Just because one Pokemon beats it, doesn't mean it isn't broken. You could easily say that about literally any Pokemon in one of the banlists. Togekiss could take advantage of many more Pokemon and turn them into opportunities to start wrecking. And no one even remotely competent would have the gut to keep a Togekiss in on a Nidoking or Nidoqueen. Basically, the best way to handle Togekiss was to run something like Raikou, Heliolisk, or Jolteon, or something like Rhyperior in order to take it down and beat it. A lot of its reliable answers don't even have reliable recovery. Heck, GeoPass was probably the most irrelevant thing about Togekiss, that was just a nice bonus so Togekiss could be used on such team archetypes.

So basically, those were probably why Togekiss was a potentially broken mon. It could easily take advantage of a lot of Pokemon, had its own category of sweeping, and just rarely actually dies. It's almost similar to Cresselia from BW RU, and that was justifiably banned.

TL;DR: I don't write walls of text for no reason.

 

[Patrick1088]

Anybody else finding lucario to be one of the top threats now? Luc is everywhere and sweeps like nobodys business... like luc was great before, but theres like nothing tbat can handle a +2 from either the physical or special sets...

Edit: there are aome pokes that can handle either +2 physical or special, not both barring scarfy chandy..

 

[Mahmudkipz]

Anybody else finding lucario to be one of the top threats now? Luc is everywhere and sweeps like nobodys business... like luc was great before, but theres like nothing tbat can handle a +2 from either the physical or special sets...

Edit: there are aome pokes that can handle either +2 physical or special, not both barring scarfy chandy..

Scarf EQ Metagross and Chople Cobalion disagree, they can revenge both sets easily :P

Honestly though I am adapted to not let Lucario set up instead of simply preparing checks or revenge killers for it, because it is easy for Luke to screw over its checks with a coverage move...

 

[Patrick1088]

Scarf EQ Metagross and Chople Cobalion disagree, they can revenge both sets easily :P

Honestly though I am adapted to not let Lucario set up instead of simply preparing checks or revenge killers for it, because it is easy for Luke to screw over its checks with a coverage move...

That's a problem I've been running into for the most part. Scarf Chandy is probably the most reliable Check to all Lucario sets IMO. I always get forced into decisions where I'm staring down the barrel of a +2 Lucario and it's either KO now or they switch to a poke that beats Chandy. Maybe I just had an off-night and am thinking into this too much lol :-)

 

[boltsandbombers]

Since when is scarf metagross a thing ?_? (Or even chople cobalion)
Also, physically defensive hippowdon can take a +2 CC from lucario, iirc
And yes, like I said before chandy is one of the best revenge killers for lucario - totally agree.

 

[Patrick1088]

Since when is scarf metagross a thing ?_? (Or even chople cobalion)
Also, physically defensive hippowdon can take a +2 CC from lucario, iirc
And yes, like I said before chandy is one of the best revenge killers for lucario - totally agree.

Yeah, but Physically Defensive Hippo is cleanly OHKO by +2 Special Lucario...

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 446-526 (106.1 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

But, I suppose specially defensive Hippo checks both physical and special variants...

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 302-356 (71.9 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hippowdon: 430-507 (102.3 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Wait, nvm..

On a side note, has anybody tried AV Slowking recently? I've been running it on a bulky offense team paired up with Mega Amphy and this thing just complete surprises me. It's ability to check the plethora of special attackers is pretty surprising... But, don't use it as a Bro Substitute....

 

[Sean B.]

I've tried Slowking a bit, not AV though. I used a set with slack off, scald, psyshock and nasty plot. It worked pretty well, great counter to a lot of special attackers like nidos and easily beat Crocune with nasty plot.

 

[Schpoonman]

This just in: Offensive Calm Mind Meloetta destroys stall and worlds. Add in some Spikes support and you can rip apart bulky offense as well. You can almost set up for free in front of Blastoise lacking Dark Pulse, taking around 35% from Water Pulse at +0.

 

[boltsandbombers]

This just in: Offensive Calm Mind Meloetta destroys stall and worlds. Add in some Spikes support and you can rip apart bulky offense as well. You can almost set up for free in front of Blastoise lacking Dark Pulse, taking around 35% from Water Pulse at +0.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but saying a mega blastoise without dark pulse is like saying alakazam without focus blast. It needs dark pulse to function as a rapid spinner.

 

[Schpoonman]

That's actually totally true and I didn't think of that. The dude I was playing was just bad, then. Well, you CAN set up one Calm Mind in Blastoise's face and still be at about 50% while +1 Hyper Voice does a minimum of 70%.

 

[Patrick1088]

Lord of Bays i ran assvest melo for DH and i forgot who said it, but tbolt 2hko mega stoise with that set. I believe nabbing the +1 and KOing mega stpoise shouldnt be an issue

 

[Schpoonman]

I'm not running Thunderbolt right now, I have Shadow Ball instead, but I might try running Thunderbolt. I did score a nice clean KO earlier on a (presumably PDef) Trevenant with +1 Shadow Ball right before I went down to Burn damage, but I'll look into swapping them.

Also, just ran the calc, and you need a Modest nature for the +0 2HKO on Megastoise. +1 LO is an OHKO after Rocks, though.

 

[KM]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but saying a mega blastoise without dark pulse is like saying alakazam without focus blast. It needs dark pulse to function as a rapid spinner.

this comparison is very good, because alakazam doesn't actually run focus blast a lot of the time (and shouldn't), dazzling gleam is far better in this meta. On a similar note, Blastoise actually doesn't need to run dark pulse anymore - the only things that it really hits are celebi and trevenant. You can run aura sphere for empoleon, blissey / umbreon, etc, or you can run something like Roar or Yawn for phazing and wearing down spinblockers.

 

[boltsandbombers]

this comparison is very good, because alakazam doesn't actually run focus blast a lot of the time (and shouldn't), dazzling gleam is far better in this meta. On a similar note, Blastoise actually doesn't need to run dark pulse anymore - the only things that it really hits are celebi and trevenant. You can run aura sphere for empoleon, blissey / umbreon, etc, or you can run something like Roar or Yawn for phazing and wearing down spinblockers.

Fair enough, those are some good points. I was just trying to get the point across.

 

[Schpoonman]

Anyone else THOROUGHLY annoyed with the influx of Scarf Jirachi? It kinda reeks of the same lazy teambuilding that plagued Victini. "Welp, I can't OHKO half of the tier, might as well flinch them to death for the same result." Just color me salty, though.

 

[Sam]

Scarf Rachi has been super popular for a long time now. While I agree that it can be mindless (I have a little history with it), it's pretty easy to stop with things like Suicune and Mega-Amph, some of the best mons in the tier right now, taking pittance from Iron Head and being able to set-up or dish out a nice Volt Switch. On top of that it's pretty weak in general, and it serves some good purposes like being an offensive check to Mega-Aero. Yeah it can be annoying at times, but it's a far cry from Victini. It's still pretty easy to play around, and odds are you'll have something on your team that can prevent it from sweeping.

 

[RowDog]

Well, I'm not sure about everyone else, but I am really starting to enjoy a Victini free tier. It really goes to show who over-centralising that thing was, and a lot more Pokemon are picking up usage since it has left, giving the metagame a lot more diversity and, imo, making it healthier. I personally hope it doesn't return after retests, although I bet a few of you may disagree.
EDIT: an attempt to recreate the hole with replacement Fire-types such as Darm, Entei and Arcanine has also (surprisingly) not been attempted to fill (from what I've seen anyway), unlike what some of us had expected.

I haven't seen a single Smeargle since Geomancy was banned and it is being retested, so I don't know how the retest is going. Anyone seen it and think that it is still broken on a practical level? (which means replays if you do think it is borked)

 

[xMarth]

I haven't seen a single Smeargle since Geomancy was banned and it is being retested, so I don't know how the retest is going. Anyone seen it and think that it is still broken on a practical level? (which means replays if you do think it is borked)

Today I played a few matches using SmearglePass with Quiver Dance instead of Geomancy. Id say the playstyle is very underwhelming against players that know what to do against it but it certainly leaves no room for error if you want to beat it. It really brings a strong level of uncompetitiveness because the chain is so mindlessly easy to play with. Banning Smeargle would probably be the best way to go because using SmearglePass involves almost no skill whatsoever.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-165894731
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-165897008
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-165916082
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-165926917
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-165930900

There are some mindless wins on the ladder. The strategy is still broken without Geomancy. Ban Smeargle.

 

[Godsend]

I'm sorry, I know the point you're trying to make, but none of those players were... Good.