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OU Analyses Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Jukain
- Start date
For the Excadrill revamp, I have the Sand Rush set and Scarf set. I wanted to know if the AV set was even worth mentioning or not, as it seems outdated. Id like an opinion on this before I post the skeleton (which should be up tomorrow).
Edit: nvm. Disregard this :$
Edit: nvm. Disregard this :$
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Pretty minor, but i think Perish Song + Whirlpool + Protect + Sap Sipper deserves a mention somewhere on the Azumarill analysis. It allows Azumarill to lure and beat many of its usual checks and counters, such as Suicune, Slowbro, Ferrothorn, Amoonguss, Alomomola, and Quagsire, while being very annoying for defensive Pokemon without phazing or Taunt in general. With Toxic + Protect it can also sort of check the usual Pokemon its typing lets it check, so it's not entirely limited to trapping defensive Pokemon, but it's still pretty gimmicky, though OO seems ok for such a set.
EDIT: Fuck illegalities, it was legal on PS :(
EDIT: Fuck illegalities, it was legal on PS :(
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i'm updating dragonite after the mawile ban and i want to get some input on the cb set. i think outrage / extreme speed / thunder punch / superpower is the best set. with mega mawile and aegislash now out of the picture, there is no reason to use earthquake over superpower outside of drops. earthquake is a risky move to use, too, because it can afford many foes switch-ins and setup opportunities. thunder punch is really useful to smack azumarill, as well as hitting skarmory. thanks to superpower hitting ferrothorn, you lose no coverage, so this set just seems flat-out better.
i feel like having fire punch on spdef nite would be good for ferrothorn and mega scizor, but eq hitting heatran is also very useful for that set in particular. any thoughts?
i feel like having fire punch on spdef nite would be good for ferrothorn and mega scizor, but eq hitting heatran is also very useful for that set in particular. any thoughts?
Heatran is still sort of a bitch atm, but Fire Punch has its uses because it's otherwise bait for SD zor and Ferrothorn, so I'd definitely slash it in. Whether it's first or last is up to you.
none from me.
Why is Assault Vest Tyranitar not in his XY Analysis?
Tyranitar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Crunch
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge/Rock Slide
- Pursuit/Ice Punch/Fire Punch
You can also run a Sassy nature and run Flamethrower/Ice Beam so you can destroy Scizor, Forretress and Ferrothorn, or Garchomp, Gliscor, Landorus-T and Salamence on the switch, where the vast majority of which would have been able to threaten a KO
252+ SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 264-312 (65.3 - 77.2%)
I'll just let that sink in
I personally think it should be there
Tyranitar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Crunch
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge/Rock Slide
- Pursuit/Ice Punch/Fire Punch
You can also run a Sassy nature and run Flamethrower/Ice Beam so you can destroy Scizor, Forretress and Ferrothorn, or Garchomp, Gliscor, Landorus-T and Salamence on the switch, where the vast majority of which would have been able to threaten a KO
252+ SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 264-312 (65.3 - 77.2%)
I'll just let that sink in
I personally think it should be there
I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM
formerly Smog Frog
because assault vest tyranitar loses stealth rocks, is quite weak, and much prefers smooth rock or choice scarf. not to mention that it has a buttload of weaknesses so it gets worn down quickly.
I disagree on all but loss of SR, yes, no SR is a bummer, but when you are taking 20% from a Mega Venusaur's invested Giga Drain, you can hardly say that weaknesses wear it down quickly...
And it's a TTar, how is he weak? I hardly call base 134 Attack "weak" even when uninvested
Sorry, 25%, besides with Wish support he can wreck house
I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM
formerly Smog Frog
because when uninvested, you hit like a pansy(seriously, mega manectric runs full investment and is still considered weak) and you practically invite stuff like mega gyarados to set up all over you. also, what does it do for a team outside of taking special hits? pursuit? that isn't worth the risk of of letting mega gyarados set up all over you. oh, and residual damage stacks up rather quickly when you have no recovery, so eventually it gets chipped away at so much that it can't do its job anymore. and wish support can apply to pretty much every wall w/o recovery in the game.
Yeah ok AV Tyranitar is not happening. It's really, really bulky, but it's easily worn down and loses the major forms of support defensive Tyranitar provides, which are Stealth Rock and 8 turns of sand with Smooth Rock. Sure Wish support can keep it healthy, but it's still a very do-nothing Pokemon with a lot of exploitable weaknesses that can easily be taken advantage of by quite a few Pokemon. That's the end of the conversation.
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anyways i want to get something squared away
Greninja
yea so extrasensory is really far from mandatory. a lot of keldeos are scarf anyways now so the 1v1 ohko is nowhere near as important. the other targets are rotom-w, azumarill, and mega venusaur. ice beam already has a bit of a chance to 2hko venu after rocks and let's be real venu isn't at full health the whole match. azumarill and rotom-w are hit better by hp grass, and even if you run grass knot > hp grass which is in general pretty much better azu takes the same damage and rotom-w still takes enough from hydro pump to the point where it's worn down pretty fast.
i don't even think extrasensory is the best option tbh. gk + hp fire provides better overall coverage, dark pulse is also nice to hit the mews and rachis that are all over the place. something like this would be ideal imo.
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Grass Knot / Hidden Power Grass
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Dark Pulse
a grass move is pretty much mandatory to hit azumarills as w/e, there's of course other uses but that's the main one. gk is preferred for crocune and megados (ohko) though having the heavier hit on rotoms as well as getting the damage on manaphy which is becoming more common is also decently valuable so an hp grass slash makes sense. last slot is pretty self-explanatory.
spikes greninja too can have hp grass/gk in lieu of esens.
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anyways i want to get something squared away
Greninja
yea so extrasensory is really far from mandatory. a lot of keldeos are scarf anyways now so the 1v1 ohko is nowhere near as important. the other targets are rotom-w, azumarill, and mega venusaur. ice beam already has a bit of a chance to 2hko venu after rocks and let's be real venu isn't at full health the whole match. azumarill and rotom-w are hit better by hp grass, and even if you run grass knot > hp grass which is in general pretty much better azu takes the same damage and rotom-w still takes enough from hydro pump to the point where it's worn down pretty fast.
i don't even think extrasensory is the best option tbh. gk + hp fire provides better overall coverage, dark pulse is also nice to hit the mews and rachis that are all over the place. something like this would be ideal imo.
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Grass Knot / Hidden Power Grass
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Dark Pulse
a grass move is pretty much mandatory to hit azumarills as w/e, there's of course other uses but that's the main one. gk is preferred for crocune and megados (ohko) though having the heavier hit on rotoms as well as getting the damage on manaphy which is becoming more common is also decently valuable so an hp grass slash makes sense. last slot is pretty self-explanatory.
spikes greninja too can have hp grass/gk in lieu of esens.
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Should greninja get an entire revamp or just get the move slashes edited on the analysis in the dex?
I would love to do Greninja, but if you want a badged member to do it that's fine.
I'd like Nidoqueen to get an analysis.
Why?
- Nidoqueen is the only Pokemon that has access to Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes and phazing options and has the stats to use them effectively (Nidoking and Smeargle can do this too, but Nidoking likes to fill in different roles such as Choice Scarf or Life Orb Attacker and Smeargle's bulk is terrible). Aside from that, Nidoqueen can also hit pretty hard while filling up a defensive role thanks to a great both coverage and wide movepool, an okay Special Attack and not to forget, Sheer Force.
- It can stop both Pokemon that set up hazards (Ferrothorn, Skarmory) by either using Taunt or Fire Blast and Pokemon that fill out different roles (Clefable is crippled by Sludge Wave and Magnezone with Earth Power while it has enough bulk to take a hit from them.)
If it could get an analysis, I'd like to do it.
Why?
- Nidoqueen is the only Pokemon that has access to Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes and phazing options and has the stats to use them effectively (Nidoking and Smeargle can do this too, but Nidoking likes to fill in different roles such as Choice Scarf or Life Orb Attacker and Smeargle's bulk is terrible). Aside from that, Nidoqueen can also hit pretty hard while filling up a defensive role thanks to a great both coverage and wide movepool, an okay Special Attack and not to forget, Sheer Force.
- It can stop both Pokemon that set up hazards (Ferrothorn, Skarmory) by either using Taunt or Fire Blast and Pokemon that fill out different roles (Clefable is crippled by Sludge Wave and Magnezone with Earth Power while it has enough bulk to take a hit from them.)
If it could get an analysis, I'd like to do it.
sorry for double posting but tagging Jukain and CyclicCompound . thoughts on nidoqueen?
Toxic Spikes is quite poor and overhyped in general--especially in XY given that basically everything is immune to it and they're now even more easy to remove thanks to Defog. Honestly, I'm speaking with very little experience of playing with Nidoqueen, but to be really blunt, it's just not a Pokemon I see as being useful in OU. All of its stats are mediocre at best by OU standards (seriously... nothing above 92!), and it struggles to stand out as a good option compared to other Pokemon with low base stats (e.g. Sableye has Prankster and a great movepool; Breloom has Spore and is an excellent offensive Pokemon). It's great and all that it can lay Stealth Rock and phaze, but let's face it: that's not really a huge asset or particularly useful skill in a practical setting. There are so many great Pokemon that have Stealth Rock and work better than Nidoqueen as it is (terrak, garchomp, mamo, ferro, lando-t and lando-i, etc.)--it's not a population so shallow that we need to look at sub-par options compared to with other moves. just my 2 cents. maybe I don't play enough nowadays to have a solid opinion, but I think other people have doubts about this mon, too.
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Agreeing with Alter, despite my more limited interaction with OU recently as well. Not only is Toxic Spikes easy to circumvent, but there aren't as many good abusers of it anymore either - as a general rule, offensive teams have no business attempting to set up Toxic Spikes in a metagame where the few Toxic Spikes-vulnerable threats have a healthy number of directly attacking checks, and defensive teams are far too concerned with removing opposing hazards and stopping powerful threats to spend time setting up a hazard that only affects a very small portion of the metagame. Furthermore, from experience in other tiers and generations I can say that the current OU metagame simply isn't kind towards the playstyles needed to facilitate Toxic Spikes.
If Toxic Spikes were actually relevant, then Nidoqueen might have a fighting chance, seeing how relatively rare of a niche it is. However, take Toxic Spikes away from the equation due to its all-around irrelevancy and you're left looking for a Pokemon to fulfill the niche of reliably setting Stealth Rock while remaining a versatile attacker. Unfortunately, in this regard, Nidoqueen simply cannot compare to Pokemon like Garchomp, Terrakion, and Landorus-T, to name a few.
If Toxic Spikes were actually relevant, then Nidoqueen might have a fighting chance, seeing how relatively rare of a niche it is. However, take Toxic Spikes away from the equation due to its all-around irrelevancy and you're left looking for a Pokemon to fulfill the niche of reliably setting Stealth Rock while remaining a versatile attacker. Unfortunately, in this regard, Nidoqueen simply cannot compare to Pokemon like Garchomp, Terrakion, and Landorus-T, to name a few.